Is there no such thing as "choice"? If there is, how is there?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Well, so much **** gets made in China. It's possible Jesus is from there as well.

I'm sure he looks like whoever the currently standing president is there.

[Leo656]

So... like all of 'em, then?

Sorry, sorry. They're simply a very homogeneous people, is all. That's not my fault.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

So... like all of 'em, then?

Sorry, sorry. They're simply a very homogeneous people, is all. That's not my fault.

Beleive it or not but there's something called the Cross-race effect. It's fairly normal for someone to look at a population from the other side of the globe and think they all look the same.

I was surprised when I first heard this but a lot of Asians also can't tell white people apart. Even if white people are more diverse in hair and eye colour than anyone else. But no, show a random Chinese a group of stereotypical swedes and a group of stereotypical greeks and ask him which is which... they'll most likely fail.

[Leo656]

So... kinda like this, then?

[Prowler]

Yeah lol

10 characters

[Leo656]

"I'm not a boy!"
"Yes you ARE!"

Sh*t kills me every time. I love that bit.

[Prowler]

It's honestly surprising how Family Guy still manages to survive in this era of overtly sensitive people.

It's like that quote says "How did a generation who grew up watching South Park and Family Guy become offended by everything?"

It really is bizarre.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Leo said that there should be freedom of choice but not freedom from consequence. I said that I could apply that exact same logic to a Theocracy, that anyone who likes to break law can do so if they wish, but they will still face the consequences.

Difference is that in Theocracy laws are based on nonsensical fairy tails created hundred years before modern civilization, which should not be used in the modern world without causing suffering and destruction.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Its the same line of reasoning used by Free Speech advocates when confronted with obvious examples when speech should be restricted (for e.g. yelling fire in a crowded theatre). The only difference being that a true Theocracy doesn't pretend to uphold Free Speech because Freedom of Speech and a religious government are incompatible values.

This is an absurd. You are either a troll or a zombie, if you don't understand difference between free speech in normal countries and in Theocracies.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

If supernatural could be measured in a labratory anymore, it wouldn't be supernatural. That's why I'm asking to show me how you can measure imagination in a labratory.

If everything is physical, you should be able to see, touch, hear, taste and smell an imagination. But you cannot.

Can you touch electrons? Can you interact with the world of quantum physics? Can you smell math? Can you touch language?
You can't, but they are very much real and have an effect on a world around us.
You lose.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Physical evidence for God will only work if God was a physical being, which he is not. Its a self defeating arguement to demand scientific evidence for God because if there were, Atheists would just move the goal posts and say "aha, you see that God is just a physical limited to space and time, that means he is not God".

Its self-defeating argument trying to prove that something that doesn't exist is indeed real.
Also, you basically admit you don't have any evidence. As expected.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Plus, science doesn't "prove" stuff, thats too strong of a word for science. Nothing in science is absolute, its only concerned with providing an explanation for physical phenomena. God is not a physical being, his existence is determined via other means that are not the scientific method.

It is a nonsense.
Not even fun or childish.
Just plain nonsense.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Its not been proven that our imagination is physical. Imagination may be a byproduct of brain, but it is not the brain.

Just like children may be the byproduct of their parents, but that doesn't mean that children are their parents.

Your argument doesn't make any lick of sense, since you comparing offspring of living beings and work of the complex biological computer.
Also, I've never said that "imagination is a brain". You are losing a plot. And an argument.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I just want to make it clear that I do not believe that God manifests himself into the physical world which is where I differ from Christians. Its not limiting God to say that he is not physical, but rather just being logical and consistent.

If I say that God cannot make a shape that is both a square and triangle at the same time, it does not mean that God is limited but that a square triangle is an illogical concept. Similarly, God being physical is an illogical concept because anything physical is automatically imperfect.

Mutually exclusive paragraphs at its best. A favorite dish of zealots.
Gladly most people have digestion when their try to consume it in a developed world.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Believing in God is the only true happiness in my experience. The world changes and grows, but faith in God is absolute and unchanging.

And by believing and having faith, I don't mean hoping that he exists, but trusting in God after knowing of his existence.

Words of zealot. Empty.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Sumac

you don't understand difference between free speech in normal countries and in Theocracies.

Neither Theocracies or Democratic countries have true free speech. Any speech that is restricted is by definition, not free, and all societies have restrictions on speech, whether it be hate speech/libel/slander/blasphemy etc.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Can you touch electrons? Can you interact with the world of quantum physics? Can you smell math? Can you touch language?
You can't, but they are very much real and have an effect on a world around us.

The examples you have used of Electrons, Quantum physics, maths and language are all concepts used by people to explain and interact with the world around them. We don't know that Math exists because we found it in a cave, we know that Math exists because its a concept we use, and it helps us understand reality.

Likewise, God is a concept that humans use to understand reality. The difference between Maths and God though, is that Maths can be practically applied to help us do things like build machines in this world. Believing in God doesn't help build machines, but that's not the point of believing in God, nor the practical application of such a belief.

Rather, the point and practical application of believing in God is to achieve inner peace that is impossible otherwise. Like how human civilization adopts the model of mathematics to help build machines which will benefit them physically in this world, humans also adopt belief in a higher power to achieve inner peace and contentment.

If we can believe in Maths because of how it has helped us, then surely we can believe in God because of how believing in him has helped us. That is unless you have never experienced inner peace from God, and thus fail to see any benefit in faith.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Your argument doesn't make any lick of sense, since you comparing offspring of living beings and work of the complex biological computer.
Also, I've never said that "imagination is a brain".

I never said that you said that the imagination is the brain. Its a general point I was using to illustrate a reason as to why imagination is not physical.

Also, my comparison between imagination and the brain to parents and their children is to show that just because something may be a byproduct of an original product, doesn't make the byproduct the same thing as the original product. The things I was comparing are different, but the same rules of logic apply.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Neither Theocracies or Democratic countries have true free speech. Any speech that is restricted is by definition, not free, and all societies have restrictions on speech, whether it be hate speech/libel/slander/blasphemy etc.

There is a difference between shouting racist obscenities and the like and getting jail time for offending fictional monsters or politicians in power. If you don't understand this difference you are not particularly bright person.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

The examples you have used of Electrons, Quantum physics, maths and language are all concepts used by people to explain and interact with the world around them. We don't know that Math exists because we found it in a cave, we know that Math exists because its a concept we use, and it helps us understand reality.

Math is a tangible concept, which people can interact with, albeit indirectly.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Rather, the point and practical application of believing in God is to achieve inner peace that is impossible otherwise. Like how human civilization adopts the model of mathematics to help build machines which will benefit them physically in this world, humans also adopt belief in a higher power to achieve inner peace and contentment.

If we can believe in Maths because of how it has helped us, then surely we can believe in God because of how believing in him has helped us. That is unless you have never experienced inner peace from God, and thus fail to see any benefit in faith.

Most people grow up enough so they don't fictional "teacher-figure" to believe in to feel "complete". Sad, that you still haven't grown up.

Also, your logic is circular: "you should believe, because, it helps, because you believed". It doesn't make sense and you sound like a broken record, which is expected from a zealot.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I never said that you said that the imagination is the brain. Its a general point I was using to illustrate a reason as to why imagination is not physical.

Also, my comparison between imagination and the brain to parents and their children is to show that just because something may be a byproduct of an original product, doesn't make the byproduct the same thing as the original product. The things I was comparing are different, but the same rules of logic apply.

Your example doesn't make sense as was demonstrated above.

[Leo656]

For me, I actually found more happiness and "inner peace" once I became agnostic/borderline atheist.

I was raised Catholic, which demands that you be pretty devout. I was never incredibly observant, but I was pretty sure there was a God and I prayed and all that stuff. The thing is, I had a ton of awful sh*t happen to me, and still do, and no matter how much I begged and prayed and pleaded for some relief, none ever came.

So I had some hard thinking to do. And I came to two conclusions: Ether God wasn't real, or if he was, he either wanted me to suffer or didn't care if I did. If he wasn't making these things happen, he sure wasn't doing anything to stop it either.

Mentally and emotionally, the thought that God hated me was just too much to bear, but it was the only thing that made any sense. Other than... maybe he just isn't there.

I can live with all the horrors I've endured being simple random chance. I can't live with the idea that it was all by design.

So I became a lot happier once I removed the possibility of there being a God and that he must absolutely hate me from the equation. A ton of my depression, anxiety, and existential crises went away immediately, once I stopped thinking that the reason my parents horrifically abused me was because I didn't go to Church enough or put enough money in the collection plate.

I mean, even if there is a God and that IS why I've had to endure so much... that's just horrible. Any deity that would put such things upon a person, especially a child, is not worthy of praise or worship. That would be pure spite, plain and simple. "This kid skipped Christmas Mass to play with his new toys. Let's see how he likes it when his Mom gets drunk at Christmas dinner and starts whipping bottles at his head after everyone's gone home! Heh heh... that'll teach the little bastard a lesson!" Like dude, no. If that's how it works then I don't wanna deal with that guy. And as so many people have told me, that supposedly IS how it works. Well, I can't be bothered with it.

So yeah, it is totally possible to be much, much happier without having any religion or God in your life. When your life is pretty much sh*t, the idea that it's "meant to be that way" is way more soul-crushing than the idea that maybe it's just random sh*t that happens. To me, that's uplifting, not depressing. If you believe in God, or at least if you're Catholic, you're taught that EVERY bad thing that happens to you is 100% your fault. You were a bad person, you didn't pray hard enough, so that cancerous tumor, that dead relative, the fact you lost your job, it's ALL your fault because your ass should've been in church more.

That's not "uplifting" or "soul-affirming" at all. That's where the term "Catholic Guilt" comes from; the idea that every single goddamn passing cloud is because you're a terrible person and you deserve to be miserable because you're not devout enough.

Conversely, if you don't believe, then it's ALL just random. "Bad sh*t happens to everyone, even good people, and it's NOT your fault. You didn't do anything wrong, it's just Random Sh*t That Happens and everyone gets their share."

THAT, to me, is much more positive and uplifting.

I still acknowledge the possibility of a higher power. But if one exists, I have SO many questions and I don't think I'd like the answers.

I basically had to give up my "faith" because it was the only way I could keep on living. Believing in God made me miserable, because I knew for a fact he must hate me and I didn't know why. I don't feel that way anymore, and thus, am so very much happier.

I don't see why any of that should be hard for anyone to understand. Some people find solace in faith; that works for them. Some of us are comforted more by the belief in Nothing, because we can't bear the notion that it's "just meant to be that way" and that eating sh*t for a lifetime is all part of some cosmic practical joke.

If God is real and he loves us... all I can say is, he sure has a funny way of showing it.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Would you say that you have absolute inner peace though with your current set of beliefs? If you don't, your ideology is suspect in my eyes.

If it helps clear up any misconceptions, I don't believe in God just for the afterlife. Belief in God brings absolute inner peace, that's why I believe in him, because his idea works and has a real benefit.

The benefits of the afterlife are just a reward of pleasures for those who adopt the correct mindset, not the ultimate purpose. The real purpose is belief and faith, because the happiness brought about by faith is far superior than any carnal satisfaction, on an entirely different realm.

[Andrew NDB]

Pretty much, actually. I do envy theists. And it's not rocket science.

Close your eyes and imagine everything is happening for a higher purpose. Also, that you can pray for good things for people you care about and that might actually matter. Then actually do good things for others because God is watching you and wants you to do good and would subsequently be proud of you.

No, it makes sense. And it gets results and good behavior and instills values in ways that... well, what else is going to? It'd be great to trust that parents and modern school systems (hahahaha!!!) will do it instead. I also tend to think the good outweighs the bad in this case and it has been demonstroatively proven nowadays with weirdos removed from this en masse in how they end up and where we are now.

[Leo656]

I don't think "absolute" inner peace is possible, because somehow, somewhere, something horrible is going to happen to every single person, and in that moment they're going to ask, "Why me?" That's true even of those most devout. Many of them admit that out loud. Nobody is immune to an existential crisis at their darkest moment. If they say otherwise, they're lying. Nobody's "faith" or "peace" is unshakable.

So I think I'm as close as it gets, quite frankly. I know which things were and were not my fault, I know that I've only ever been honest, and I know that no matter how things played out, my intentions were generally noble and pure.

I don't think much about any kind of afterlife because by now it's way too late. I'm either forgiven or I'm not, damned or not, and I can only say "I'm sorry for what I've done" so many times. It's out of my hands, at this point.

So yes, I am as close to "absolute" inner peace as it humanly gets. I am at peace with the fact that there probably isn't an afterlife. I am at peace with the fact that if there is, I might not end up where I want to be. And that if that's where I end up, it's just one more cruel practical joke on me because I never set out to be a "bad person" but was occasionally pushed into doing bad things in retaliation to how others treated me. If I am to be punished for that, then it means I never really had a chance in the first place.

I often joke that I was set on a path to Hell because God was terrified of someone like me ever getting into Heaven. But it's only half a joke. I don't deal with middle-management; when I have a grievance, I storm into the boss's office and demand a closed-door meeting. It would probably be the same Up There. People like me, he supposedly has little time and patience for. That's his prerogative, but again, it tells me a lot, if true. I'm on record about my opinion of "authority figures" who insist upon "Don't ask questions, just do what you're told." Not a big fan.

It's not up to me if there's a God or isn't, whether I go to Heaven or Hell. None of it is up to me. All I can do is get up every day and try to be the best person I can be. Supposedly, that's all it's supposed to take, so long as it's sincere. I do my best; God either sees and appreciates that, or he doesn't.

I've done all I can do, and it's out of my hands.

Which means I don't worry about it anymore at all.

Which means I'm as peaceful as it gets.

As for any notion that "faith" can be fulfilling... that is kind of heavily predicated on the notion that a person's "faith" is actually REWARDED once in a while. Which is why so many rich people are so devout. They're "rewarded" constantly and thus their beliefs are unshakeable.

NOBODY "keeps the faith" when ALL they ever get is sh*t on. I don't care who they are. At some point, "Just hang in there" is an empty platitude.

I'm enjoying my life the way I want to because I'm quite sure there's no afterlife and if there is I'm headed South through no actual fault of my own. I'm not gonna pauper myself and be miserable in pursuit of some vacant notion of "inner peace". If anyone knows the difference between Happiness and Misery, it's This Guy Right Here. All my possessions make me far happier than any warm, fuzzy feeling in the tummy ever could.

I know I can't take it with me, but I'm damn sure having fun in the meantime. Because THAT is what life's about. Not "enjoy having nothing and being miserable, because if you accept it then your invisible stepdad is gonna give you a big warm hug after you die." Nah. That's just nonsense, a way to brainwash people into accepting that they're "meant" to be miserable and have nothing. "It'll be worth it after you die!" I do not accept that. I never have and I never will. I'm alive now, I choose to be happy Now.

You probably shouldn't discuss notions of abstract concepts with a staunch Materialist. If I can't buy it on eBay, it's not gonna make me happy.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I understand, you don't believe that absolute inner peace is possible. I can tell you that that its possible, and its something I live my life by, but I can't show it to you because its something that people have to realise it for themselves in their deepest thoughts.

I hope that my example persuades you, and that you don't think I am lying about having absolute Inner Peace. The feeling is a powerful connection with an entity that is beyond this world, with no beginning and no end, not affected by hunger, pain, slumber and thirst, and there is nothing else like it.

[Leo656]

I don't believe in abstract concepts, and I don't waste thought or energy on them. Freshman Philosophy is for people who smoke a lot more pot but have way less actual motivation than I do.

I have way too much to actually do on a daily basis to sit around pondering the Meaning of Life or what comes next. I'll find out when I'm dead, and by then I'll have all eternity to get used to the idea.

Right Now? I have way too much to actually do and only a couple decades left at best to squeeze it all in. No time or patience for "What if?" or anything that can't be seen, touched, tasted or measured.

I've been filming stuff for my YouTube channel lately, which means I got to take a bunch of my toys out of the package and mess with them for the first time. Boy oh boy, did that make me happy. That's the kinda stuff I live for. Popping open an action figure, re-watching a favorite movie, or seeing that little "Achievement Unlocked" icon pop up on my TV screen. Also, titties.

Am I "happy"? Am I "at peace"? Way more than most people, I can assure you, in spite of the occasional horror show (which is something everyone has to deal with at some point or other). And if I need more happiness, I can go turn on the Xbox. Total Zen in less than 5 minutes on demand.

That's in fact why I am so generally "happy" and "at peace". For me, it doesn't take a lot. It's like the one guy said in "Boogie Nights": "I'm a simple man. I like simple things, like butter in my ass and lollipops in my mouth."

If a person wants or expects too much out of life, they're doing it all wrong.

If a person is forgoing enjoyment of This Life because they're worried about or hypothesizing about the next one, then again, they're doing it all wrong.

I wouldn't mind there being a Heaven, though. Mine would just be a gigantic Toys R Us with a GameStop inside. And all the staff would be naked supermodels.

"Inner peace" is easy to find when you have really simple tastes. I'm practically drowning in it, most days. So long as I don't have drunk people screaming at me, I'm as blissed out as it gets.

And if a person thinks there's a "better" or "more fulfilling" way to live, well... the burden of proof is on y'all, because 9/10s of the time I'm having a blast. That 1/10 is awful, but then Nature is Balance and all that.

I guess everyone wants something different out of life. I have most of what I need. If not for drunks and junkies, it'd be just about perfect.

But then "perfection" is an abstract concept, and as I said, I don't believe in those.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Belief in God brings absolute inner peace, that's why I believe in him, because his idea works and has a real benefit.

You are not making any sense.
You derive pleasure from inner peace, which you are achieving by believing that fictional creature idea works, even, if you can't prove it and before you can see any results of it.

Shouldn't it be other way around, like you see tangible prove first and then getting an inner peace?
Oh, wait I forgot I am dealing with a zombie.

Scratch that: zombies are smarter than zealots. At least they deal with a simple concept of BRAAAAAAAAINS as opposed to twisting millennia old stories about nature spirits, to give their lives some worth and morals.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

The benefits of the afterlife are just a reward of pleasures for those who adopt the correct mindset, not the ultimate purpose. The real purpose is belief and faith, because the happiness brought about by faith is far superior than any carnal satisfaction, on an entirely different realm.

You sound like a salesman, selling broken vacuum cleaners and dick enhancing pills.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Pleasure does not equal to inner peace.

Pleasure is often temporary, physical in nature like when you bite into a cake or a biscuit.

Inner Peace is mental contentment and ideological perfection, when you are not troubled by any ideas, and know that you are living a purposeful existence.

Inner Peace is not something that one can see, hear, taste, smell and touch, but that doesn't mean that its not real or has no benefit. Infact, it would be superior to bodily pleasures because a human being is not his body first and foremost, but the consciousness which occupies that body.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Pleasure does not equal to inner peace.

Pleasure is often temporary, physical in nature like when you bite into a cake or a biscuit.

Inner Peace is mental contentment and ideological perfection, when you are not troubled by any ideas, and know that you are living a purposeful existence.

...which can be achieved through multiple ways, not only by worshipping fictional monsters.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

What is your way, and how does it work in your life? Please explain.