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Old 03-17-2022, 04:34 PM   #21
neatoman
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Hm... 4Kids owning TMNT outright? Let's see, that means TMNT would have been owned by Konami by now, right?
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Old 03-17-2022, 04:38 PM   #22
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Here's a new question, would people have liked to have seen a BTTSS2, with concepts like the Shredder War, as pitched in S1? After watching Js Reviews series, apparently 4Kids were interested in buying TMNT and making an eighth season, but this season wouldn't have had Laird editing scripts to make them better quality. Same creative staff, excluding Laird.
Not sure. Laird's overseeing was what made TMNT 2k3 a good show, I have serious doubts it'd worked as well without his interference.
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Old 03-17-2022, 05:27 PM   #23
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Yeah, Laird shot down SO many terrible ideas for the show as it was (and seeing the Notes where the writers and other staff would basically try and nudge him with "C'moooon, ya crab!") that I have very little faith that a Laird-less show from those people would have been anything but awful.

They very clearly wanted to do a "dumb" show, because a lot of people want/expect TMNT to be "dumb", and Laird was the only thing standing in the way of it. Everything we've gotten since has also been "dumb", no matter who was making it, and so I've come to appreciate over the years just how helpful and necessary having Laird as "gatekeeper" really was. Don't much care for his writing, but I'll always appreciate that he kept things "straight" for as long as he did and did his best to keep the brand from becoming a complete joke the way it is now. Things fell apart so fast once he was out of the equation that it's very clear now that he really was the glue.

I've actually never seen the "Lost Season", although I have (I believe) a bootleg DVD of it. Just keep forgetting to watch it. I'll probably like it. I hated "Fast Forward" so even if I wasn't in love with Ninja Tribunal I'm sure I'll like it better, at least, once I ever get around to it.
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Old 03-17-2022, 06:23 PM   #24
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Really? I've always felt that season five was the natural progression after season four, and would've worked as a nice conclusion to the series. It wasn't perfect, but I definitely enjoyed the season.
Yeah aside from the Turtles getting power ups via the mystic weapons, it was basically the same as the previous 4 seasons and wrapped up the main plots of the show at the time. I liked FF concepts and stories, but it did have some bad episodes and you can tell they were going for a lighter approach.
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Old 03-17-2022, 07:13 PM   #25
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Wasn't too big on the Ninja Tribunal stuff. Great concept but the execution could have been much better.

The show began losing steam after season 4. I honestly think they just didn't know how to end it. After all, Shredder makes a million of comebacks in it. They couldn't decide which one was going to be the ultimate super powerful final one.
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Old 03-17-2022, 07:21 PM   #26
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That was what Season 5 was, to bring back the original human Shredder reincarnated as a demon. It was set-up during Season 4.
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Old 03-18-2022, 01:06 AM   #27
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I felt 2k3 played their hand too much.
They wanted to keep Shredder around (and Karai wasn't good at being the Shredder), but didn't want to bring back Ch'rell, so they've started to invent some stupid nonsense about Human Shredder, Demon Shredder, Ninja Tribunal and whatnot. In Season 5 it felt overwhelmingly annoying and stupid.

It doesn't help that Season 5 added mystic powers, which made it feel more like an anime, as opposed to TMNT cartoon.

4kids, should have let Shredder go and create a completely new villain or just end the series all together.
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Old 03-18-2022, 02:08 AM   #28
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I feel like every show should have a "Go-Home Scenario" where if things dip they can do a Season to tie up all loose ends and get the hell out of Dodge. Like at the very beginning, as you're coming up with the whole premise and how it starts, you should also know how it ends. That way things can all tie together.

I mean, look at it this way: A wrestling match is basically a "short movie" about two guys having a fight. When you plot out a wrestling match, there's a couple of different ways to do it, but what I always prefer to do is know the ending first, the "finish". The whole story of the match needs to build to that, so if you know how it ends you can tell a story that leads to that in an organic and satisfying way. Some people like to block out Every Single Spot, but I do not like to do this because A. People forget things, especially in the middle of getting hit in the face, and B. If you have a concrete plan and the audience does not respond to it, you now cannot switch gears on the fly. So you NEED to have an ending, you SHOULD have a beginning and you CAN have a plot for the middle but you don't absolutely need one, all you need to know is, "We know what Z is, and we know we start with A... B through Y can be whatever, as long as it makes sense for Z." If you do it right, everything flows well and you don't lose the audience, and the finish will get a huge reaction. If.

Too many TV shows, they only call the opening "spot". They leave the entire middle and end wide open, and that's why so many shows start off hot and then fizzle, or else they just meander through the middle by just throwing sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. And then they never get a proper ending because they get the plug pulled.

I feel like it makes more sense, if you're blocking out a TV show, to know how it's gonna start and how it's gonna end, and then you can leave the entire middle wide open. That way you can adjust as needed, make adjustments if this character gets more popular or this arc doesn't land, whatever... but let's say even if you hope for six Seasons and end up only having three, you can STILL pull that ending storyline out of your pocket to wrap things up in a jiff, maybe tweak it a bit to reflect anything that got changed in the middle, but still come out of it feeling like your show had a cohesive storyline throughout.

Roddy Piper used to say about calling his matches, "If you give them a great Beginning and a great Ending, they'll forgive a whole lot of bullsh*t in-between." This is very much true and I think it would work well if more TV shows applied this logic. But they only ever seem to know how to start hot, and have no endgame scenario in mind. I get the idea of, "Well, let's see where things take us," which is what they seemingly do a lot of the time, but again, you don't have to have every single step etched in stone along the way but if you DO know in advance how things are designed to end, you can build to it more organically.

I don't know, this makes sense to me. 4Kids was another show that started off really hot and then very quickly it became obvious they didn't know what the f*ck to do with it. Except "keep tweaking it to sell more toys".
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Old 03-18-2022, 07:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Turtle Terminator View Post
Here's a new question, would people have liked to have seen a BTTSS2, with concepts like the Shredder War, as pitched in S1? After watching Js Reviews series, apparently 4Kids were interested in buying TMNT and making an eighth season, but this season wouldn't have had Laird editing scripts to make them better quality. Same creative staff, excluding Laird.
I would've loved to have seen the Shredder Wars.

I don't ever remember reading 4kids was going to buy TMNT, seems a bit like BS. They did own the rights to 2k3 completely and licensing rights for TMNT for a certain amount of time which is what Viacom bought from 4Kids to own 100% TMNT and not sharing anything with 4kids but they didn't own anything besides the show and the licensing for a while..


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Hm... 4Kids owning TMNT outright? Let's see, that means TMNT would have been owned by Konami by now, right?
No, why would TMNT be owned by Konami? Because they got Yu gi oh back from 4Kids? They always owned YGO.
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Old 03-19-2022, 06:57 AM   #30
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No, why would TMNT be owned by Konami? Because they got Yu gi oh back from 4Kids? They always owned YGO.
Konami bought out the assests of 4Kids when they went bankrupt, Konami Cross Media NY is effectively the same company as 4Kids. Admitteddly, it's a shadow of it's former self, effectively being nothing but a source of cheap voice work for low budget Konami games and Yu-Gi-Oh dubs.

But if we assume 4Kids did buy TMNT and it never changed hands before bankruptcy, we can assume Konami would get it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Cross_Media_NY
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Old 03-19-2022, 08:46 AM   #31
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Interesting, never knew about it.
Not sure, if 4kids would've bought TMNT and I dread to think what would had happen, if modern Konami would get their grabby hands on a series.
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Old 03-19-2022, 09:15 AM   #32
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Konami only bought what was left of 4kids because of Yugioh though, had 4kids owned TMNT they would've sold it for far more and perhaps remained relevant for a while longer, but even if that hadn't been the case other companies would've bought 4kids instead of konami since TMNT is an evergreen brand so Konami wouldn't have been able to afford it. But it's all irrelevant since 4Kids never had the chance to buy TMNT and I even think during the height of Pokemon were not big enough to acquire a brand like TMNT outright, it'd be too expensive for them, definitely not when they lost Pokemon.
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Old 03-19-2022, 07:53 PM   #33
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The problem with 2k3 was that, despite being a more action orientated TMNT cartoon with stronger continuity and plot than FW, it was still a kids cartoon at the end of the day, therefore a weekly 20 minutes toy advertisement.

The show definitely had substance to it in its conception and early seasons, but eventually it reached a point where it lost it and it became all about the merch. The show even had some seriousness and edge to it during season 4 with the Same as it Never Was episode, but after s4 was over, so was all of that pretty much. Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers were mediocre and the show had pretty much just become a comedy at that point. It's like the writers didn't have any major important plots and stories to tell anymore. Naturally, ratings dropped. People like me who were like 12 when the show came out were now 17-18. And it was obvious the show wasn't growing with its audience by then. If anything it felt like it was now targeting younger kids.

I commend the 2K3 TMNT series for lasting 7 seasons and over 150 episodes. I honestly didn't expect it to have more than 2 or maybe 3 seasons, let alone break the 100 episode barrier.

And as good as season 4 was, it was kind of a filler season anyway. The signs were there. Chrell was gone and they didn't seem to know what route to take the show next.
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Old 03-19-2022, 08:17 PM   #34
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Yeah, I wasn't watching it regularly after like the halfway point - I had a sh*t job that kicked my ass all week long so I pretty much would just sleep all weekend since I never got any sleep all week - but I was pleasantly surprised that it ran as long as it did, even with the dip in quality later on.

Based on the early feedback I was expecting it to only run like two, maybe three Seasons like you said. When the show debuted I'd ask other people my age if they'd heard about it, since we'd all been kids during peak "TurtleMania", and they'd all be like "Dude, I'm up all night Fridays getting drunk, doing blow and banging chicks; I'm not getting up at 10 in the morning on a Saturday to watch f*cking cartoons." SO it really didn't seem like the show had an audience outside of this forum, just going by how people in our age group reacted to it (or didn't react to it).

There was also the whole "No Bebop, Rocksteady or Krang? Why even bother doing a show? I'm not watching that" factor. Which was a LOT stronger than I think younger people know. For as much as people revere the 4Kids show now for what it is, at the time a LOT of people wanted FW Redux, maybe just a little more serious. And they steadfastly refused to watch 4Kids without those FW elements. "I'll just wait until this one gets cancelled and they do a REAL Ninja Turtles show with Bebop and Rocksteady in it." Kinda wonder if any of those people kept their word and later tuned in to the Nick cartoon, since that's more of what they said they wanted.

But yeah, based on all that I was like, "This show's great but it's not gonna last." It was pretty cool to be wrong, even though I didn't catch much after Season 3.

Point of fact, I still haven't seen the entire series since it was never officially released on DVD. Not really sweating it; I remember watching maybe two episodes of Fast Forward and was like, "Nah". If I ever commit to a marathon I think I'm gonna just end it with Ninja Tribunal and let that be the finish.
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Old 03-19-2022, 08:57 PM   #35
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My brother was born in 1983. Therefore lived through Turtle Mania. And he's exactly the typical TMNT fan. Only FW and the first 2 movies matter to him. The rest just isn't Ninja Turtles.

He never gave 2k3 a chance. Just kept complaining about the Turtles "looking like they're blind" and all the aliens in the series. He walked on me watching one of the Turtles in Space episodes and told me "For me Ninja Turtles means New York City. What the hell is this?"...says he as if the FW Toon didn't have loads of aliens, Sci fi elents and episodes set in Dimension X

Yes a lot of people to this day are unaware 2k3 ever even existed.
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Old 03-19-2022, 09:10 PM   #36
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What a selective memory to think the Turtles only ever had adventures in NYC. Even in Mirage they ended up having space and sci fi adventures rather early on. I guess some people conflate or confuse "The things they prefer/most responded to" and "The way things actually were."

As for "looking like they're blind", yeah I can't stand the blank eyes unless there's an in-story reason for it like Batman. Turtles have pupils. I get that it's just a stylistic choice but if there's not even an attempt at justifying it then it just looks weird.

I'm pretty sure that for the vast majority of "TMNT Fans" who ever existed, TMNT "died" when Power Rangers came along and everything since then "doesn't count" or whatever.
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Old 03-19-2022, 09:21 PM   #37
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Yes. My brother only read a few of the early Mirage Comics. The ones that were available for free on the old Mirage website. He described them as "sinister".

Aka "Turtles shouldn't be dark. They should be superheroes who eat pizza and shout Cowabunga". That's like 95% of TMNT fans.

When I told him the news about the Nick Toon coming out soon and how it was going to be closer to FW he was pleased. Then he watched one episode and disliked the artstyle. He also was horrified when I told him about the Bayturtles movies.

So yeah, he's not too bad. But some old school TMNT fans actually think Nick is just like the original Toon and that the Bay crap is good. A lost cause, they are.
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Old 03-19-2022, 09:26 PM   #38
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"Sinister". I like that.

I mean preference is preference but I still feel like the original source material for something should always be respected even if it's not the preferred take.

Like, I love the Flash Gordon movie to death but I'm well aware that the original strips were nowhere near as campy. I get why some hardcores outright hate that movie, I'm not gonna fight them over it. I'd never dismiss them or tell them they're "wrong" or whatever.

Note To Self: Time to re-watch "Flash Gordon" one'a these days.
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Old 03-19-2022, 09:28 PM   #39
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Yes. I haven't read all of Mirage stuff and even the best stuff there could use some improvement.

The bad stuff... I mean the things I've read about volume 4 and April and cockroaches... that sounds crazy. And yet some people take offence to the mere implication Laird and Eastman were high af when they came up with TMNT
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Old 03-19-2022, 09:30 PM   #40
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Splinter straight-up gives Leo some drugged tea in one of the Tales Vol. 2 issues so I think it's safe to assume the Mirage gang were pretty liberal about substances.

To Mirage Leo's credit, he did seem pretty weirded out about it.
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