Are TMNT comics honestly "good comics" by other series standards? - Page 2

~~Leo656~~ · 05-11-2009, 02:59 PM

As a kid I found Archie first, then Mirage Vol. 1 and 2 as a 20-year old collector, and finally Image shortly after. I'm missing about a dozen total issues (like 3 from Archie, a few from Vol. 1, etc) and have everything that's come out since in single issue form. I've read pretty much everything I have of TMNT, not saying I remember it all well, but I've read it. I kinda feel like I'm in an interesting place to chime in, given I myself purchase about 20-30 books a month and my current comic collection sits at over 5000 issues (add Mary's and it's almost 6000). I'm not a "collector"; I buy to read. Oh, I bag n board, stack long boxes to the ceiling, but I collect because I NEEDED every Superman book since the '86 revamp. I NEED every issue of TMNT, or whatever else, because I don't like holes in my reading experience, not because I'd ever sell any of it. I like to sit down with a stack of 30 books on a weekend and just cram insane stuff into my brain over hours and hours of reading.

It's not always easy for me to do that with some of the TMNT stuff. At various times I've read a whole volume in one sitting and it's definitely a mixed bag. I agree with a lot of what's been said, especially a lot of Dr Spengler's comments. For me personally, the Image run was the hardest to get through, partly because of those oh-so-controversial changes, but also because that book was very hard on the eyes, especially the early issues. BnW comics just don't do it for me, I know I may be a minority but they hurt my damn eyes, sorry. BnW comics almost demand superior art and shading b/c otherwise it's just a scrambled mess, and I think many issues of TMNT (not just Image) suffered for it.

Image Vol. 3 gets blasted sometimes, and I didn't really like it much, but I think it's a microcosm of why some other TMNT books, including Mirage, have stumbled at times: Art and writing that's inconsistent between brilliant and "what is this?", mixed with concepts and ideas that are completely foreign to the "real" fanbase, the old cartoon fans.

(Note I put "real" in sarcastically. I believe though that larger numbers of people are familiar with the 'toon and nothing else, and in real life many of them are quite dismissive of any non-toon TMNT besides the movies.)

Better or worse, the Archies were the closest to what a casual TMNT fan would expect from a TMNT book, and that's probably why it's remembered so fondly by some. I pretty much agree with what was said a million times about what was good and not good about it, but the best parts of it later on were the things the "real" TMNT books could borrow from. Stuff like consistent artwork and stories that actually end within a reasonable timeframe, new characters that don't just seem to vanish forever once their two-parter is over, that sort of thing.

I think Vol. 1 did a good job overall but it really suffers under all the guest writer/artist issues. That's the one thing, that huge chunk in the middle, that makes it less appetizing for casuals. My fiancee, for example, isn't a canon freak, but she'd much rather read in-continuity stories than "imaginary" ones, and I bet a lot of other casual readers do, too.

As much as I like a lot of the new Tales series, Vol. 4 was really, really getting on my nerves a ways back. I liked it at first, but then the tone just shifted, like it was trying to be an anti-comic fan comic book. The art got worse, the stories just never ended, one-panel background events that seemed mysteriously important were never mentioned again, and it got to a point where instead of wanting the next issue b/c I was diggin' it, it was more like, "I can't wait for the next issue to hopefully be better than this one."

Mostly, it was the attitude of "the boss" that got me. Whenever anyone would make a humble request about what they'd like to see in Vol. 4, they'd usually be dismissed outright and told "Don't read it if you don't like it". Which is pretty unrealistic, I mean most comic fans are so passionate they can put up with a sub-par product for a little while if they think it'll actually improve. I think more people probably just pick it up, figure it's not what they want, and go back to waiting for a better TMNT book to somehow come out.

Sadly, I'd have to say that the TMNT have rarely shone as brightly in print as they should have, in any series. There's no series I would comfortably hand to a non-fan or non-reader and say "Read all that. That's the TMNT."

Aztec General · 05-11-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Sadly, I'd have to say that the TMNT have rarely shone as brightly in print as they should have, in any series. There's no series I would comfortably hand to a non-fan or non-reader and say "Read all that. That's the TMNT."

Really? If there was a trade that had: TMNT Vol. 1 #1-11, 4 turtle micros, Tales Vol. 1, Return to New York, Shades of Grey/City At War, and Tristan's work all included; you wouldn't tell someone: "Read all that. That's the TMNT"?

I would in a heartbeat! That IS the TMNT to me.

*CyberCubed* · 05-11-2009, 03:26 PM

Yes, but those issues are really only a small part of the entire TMNT comic universe.

There is what...nearly 200 issues with all of the Mirage and Image comics combined? How many of those are memorable?

*Cipher* · 05-11-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

There is what...nearly 200 issues with all of the Mirage and Image comics combined? How many of those are memorable?

That's a loaded question. Of all the multiple hundreds of Superman or Batman comics, for example, how many of those are memorable? Not an exceedingly large percentage by most standards.

Aztec General · 05-11-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipher

That's a loaded question. Of all the multiple hundreds of Superman or Batman comics, for example, how many of those are memorable? Not an exceedingly large percentage by most standards.

Exactly. There's probably not many more in Batman or X-Men than the 46 TMNT "must haves" that I listed above.

~~Leo656~~ · 05-11-2009, 04:09 PM

Agreed, but since all the TMNT runs have been so short (number-wise) it really hurts the argument a bit on behalf of TMNT. Anybody could dig up great issues of ANY book, but the fact that so many issues of each TMNT series were either forgettable, fill-ins, or "not great" hurts it more than, say, a book like Batman that's had hundreds of issues by hundreds of different writers/artists. All of the TMNT series could have been a lot tighter.

That's not to say you can't still cherry-pick the gems, but I didn't think we were talking in that respect. As a whole, I'd still have to say each series wasn't as good as it could have been, especially the in-house product, but there were always flashes of brilliance.

Blade Raider · 05-11-2009, 04:46 PM

Archie's TMNT are "good comics". I've read about 10 issues and every one of them made me want to read another issue and know what happened next. One of the few issues I have is the issue right after the Mutanimals die. I didn't have a clue who most of the characters were, but afterwards, I wanted to know more about the characters.

I've read about the same amount of Mirage issues and most all of them leave me wondering how TMNT EVER became a success. The only ones I enjoyed are the ones made into 2k3 episodes...and I think 2k3 did the stories much better. Any other issues I've read I barly remember because their just plain forgetable.

trustno1 · 05-11-2009, 04:52 PM

i was thinking about all this and given what tristan and paul did with hun in tales #56, i think they would be perfect for something along the lines of an ultimate ninja turtles comic line. i would love to see them re-do classic stories the way they reinterpreted hun. i am not sure who has been to andres blog or tristans blog lately but it looks like theyt were going to pitch touch and go at one point. their designs are definitely something i would be into for those characters. even some of the previews of #61 make me wish andres was doing more stories. i think his art is very close to what good modern comics are like these days.

*CyberCubed* · 05-11-2009, 05:46 PM

Peter Laird likely won't have a reboot as long as he's in charge, as seen by his reaction to the Star Trek movie.

Maybe 30 years from now when Pete is retired or in his 80's, we'll see TMNT handed off to new creative hands.

*Andrew NDB* · 05-11-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Peter Laird likely won't have a reboot as long as he's in charge, as seen by his reaction to the Star Trek movie.

How do you mean? Nothing in his reaction to Star Trek would lead me to believe he's inherently against reboots... he's just against ones that don't retain the heart of the thing that's being rebooted.

TristanHuwJones · 05-11-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustno1

i was thinking about all this and given what tristan and paul did with hun in tales #56, i think they would be perfect for something along the lines of an ultimate ninja turtles comic line. i would love to see them re-do classic stories the way they reinterpreted hun. i am not sure who has been to andres blog or tristans blog lately but it looks like theyt were going to pitch touch and go at one point. their designs are definitely something i would be into for those characters. even some of the previews of #61 make me wish andres was doing more stories. i think his art is very close to what good modern comics are like these days.

I literally just wrote something about this over in another thread, and Peter made mention of his first idea for such a thing over on his blog.

Lil G · 05-12-2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade Raider

I've read about the same amount of Mirage issues and most all of them leave me wondering how TMNT EVER became a success. The only ones I enjoyed are the ones made into 2k3 episodes...and I think 2k3 did the stories much better. Any other issues I've read I barly remember because their just plain forgetable.

I agree with you on that one. 2k3 did make the stories more better. But the mirage comics weren't all that bad. If anything, they were real good up to #16. then it was like, every other issues going to be good.

*Mr._Mutant_Man* · 05-12-2009, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Peter Laird likely won't have a reboot as long as he's in charge, as seen by his reaction to the Star Trek movie.

I'd prefer it if the original stories were continued too, but a reboot is probably what's best if he wants to grow the audience. Either that or really market the hell out of the upcoming collected book.

Also, just because he didn't like that reboot, doesn't mean he's completely opposed to the concept.

staypuftweepel · 05-12-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I literally just wrote something about this over in another thread, and Peter made mention of his first idea for such a thing over on his blog.

I really hope you guys don't do that. If anything I think you guys should get a shot at carrying the actual book. I personally hate ultimate comics.

~~Leo656~~ · 05-12-2009, 02:50 PM

I hate the idea of "Ultimates" and reboots myself pretty much always, but if there was ever a property that really needed a steamlined, "Ultimate"-style makeover that combined what worked from each incarnation and threw out what didn't, TMNT would come to my mind before pretty much anything else.

*Coola Yagami* · 05-12-2009, 07:55 PM

I wish the Dreamwave comics kept going.... shouldn't have wasted time with 'turtles in da hood' and gone straight for the Baxter/Turtlebot 'T4' story....

I mean, we had no comic supporting the show this time... DW TMNT could have been the Archie of today. They both had the same beginning, first few issues based on the show, the rest was all new. What were they thinking when they wasted valauble time and issues with crap like Raph being chased by some deranged psychologist? I was still wondering how the comics would have turned out during the whole Fast Forwad/Back to the Sewers shift? During the whole 'what do we do now with the new TMNT season' hiatus, the comics could have whipped out some awesome FF stories in the meantime...

*DrSpengler* · 05-12-2009, 08:10 PM

Personally, I find that musing over "what could have been" in regards to the Dreamwave series to be a bit pointless. What with Dreamwave having gone bankrupt five years ago and all, the series would have been abruptly cancelled, anyway.

*Coola Yagami* · 05-12-2009, 08:30 PM

Bankrupt... and woulda been abruptly cancelled anyway???? That I did not know....

Either way, someone else should have gotten the rights to make a comic of the 2K3 stuff... we had no modern 'Archie' comic...

*plastroncafe* · 05-12-2009, 08:36 PM

I don't think I'm qualified to say whether or not they're good comics, I've got too much nostalgia wrapped up in them.

There are certainly stories I like more than others, that's for sure. "Sons of the Silent Age", "The River", "The Dale Evans McGillicutty" story arch, just to name a few.

~~Leo656~~ · 05-13-2009, 01:11 PM

I thought the DW series was off to a good start, too. Life can be so unfair.

05-11-2009, 04:46 PM	#27
Blade Raider Mad Scientist Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,221	Archie's TMNT are "good comics". I've read about 10 issues and every one of them made me want to read another issue and know what happened next. One of the few issues I have is the issue right after the Mutanimals die. I didn't have a clue who most of the characters were, but afterwards, I wanted to know more about the characters. I've read about the same amount of Mirage issues and most all of them leave me wondering how TMNT EVER became a success. The only ones I enjoyed are the ones made into 2k3 episodes...and I think 2k3 did the stories much better. Any other issues I've read I barly remember because their just plain forgetable. __________________

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05-11-2009, 02:59 PM	#21
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	As a kid I found Archie first, then Mirage Vol. 1 and 2 as a 20-year old collector, and finally Image shortly after. I'm missing about a dozen total issues (like 3 from Archie, a few from Vol. 1, etc) and have everything that's come out since in single issue form. I've read pretty much everything I have of TMNT, not saying I remember it all well, but I've read it. I kinda feel like I'm in an interesting place to chime in, given I myself purchase about 20-30 books a month and my current comic collection sits at over 5000 issues (add Mary's and it's almost 6000). I'm not a "collector"; I buy to read. Oh, I bag n board, stack long boxes to the ceiling, but I collect because I NEEDED every Superman book since the '86 revamp. I NEED every issue of TMNT, or whatever else, because I don't like holes in my reading experience, not because I'd ever sell any of it. I like to sit down with a stack of 30 books on a weekend and just cram insane stuff into my brain over hours and hours of reading. It's not always easy for me to do that with some of the TMNT stuff. At various times I've read a whole volume in one sitting and it's definitely a mixed bag. I agree with a lot of what's been said, especially a lot of Dr Spengler's comments. For me personally, the Image run was the hardest to get through, partly because of those oh-so-controversial changes, but also because that book was very hard on the eyes, especially the early issues. BnW comics just don't do it for me, I know I may be a minority but they hurt my damn eyes, sorry. BnW comics almost demand superior art and shading b/c otherwise it's just a scrambled mess, and I think many issues of TMNT (not just Image) suffered for it. Image Vol. 3 gets blasted sometimes, and I didn't really like it much, but I think it's a microcosm of why some other TMNT books, including Mirage, have stumbled at times: Art and writing that's inconsistent between brilliant and "what is this?", mixed with concepts and ideas that are completely foreign to the "real" fanbase, the old cartoon fans. (Note I put "real" in sarcastically. I believe though that larger numbers of people are familiar with the 'toon and nothing else, and in real life many of them are quite dismissive of any non-toon TMNT besides the movies.) Better or worse, the Archies were the closest to what a casual TMNT fan would expect from a TMNT book, and that's probably why it's remembered so fondly by some. I pretty much agree with what was said a million times about what was good and not good about it, but the best parts of it later on were the things the "real" TMNT books could borrow from. Stuff like consistent artwork and stories that actually end within a reasonable timeframe, new characters that don't just seem to vanish forever once their two-parter is over, that sort of thing. I think Vol. 1 did a good job overall but it really suffers under all the guest writer/artist issues. That's the one thing, that huge chunk in the middle, that makes it less appetizing for casuals. My fiancee, for example, isn't a canon freak, but she'd much rather read in-continuity stories than "imaginary" ones, and I bet a lot of other casual readers do, too. As much as I like a lot of the new Tales series, Vol. 4 was really, really getting on my nerves a ways back. I liked it at first, but then the tone just shifted, like it was trying to be an anti-comic fan comic book. The art got worse, the stories just never ended, one-panel background events that seemed mysteriously important were never mentioned again, and it got to a point where instead of wanting the next issue b/c I was diggin' it, it was more like, "I can't wait for the next issue to hopefully be better than this one." Mostly, it was the attitude of "the boss" that got me. Whenever anyone would make a humble request about what they'd like to see in Vol. 4, they'd usually be dismissed outright and told "Don't read it if you don't like it". Which is pretty unrealistic, I mean most comic fans are so passionate they can put up with a sub-par product for a little while if they think it'll actually improve. I think more people probably just pick it up, figure it's not what they want, and go back to waiting for a better TMNT book to somehow come out. Sadly, I'd have to say that the TMNT have rarely shone as brightly in print as they should have, in any series. There's no series I would comfortably hand to a non-fan or non-reader and say "Read all that. That's the TMNT."

05-11-2009, 03:26 PM	#23
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,946	Yes, but those issues are really only a small part of the entire TMNT comic universe. There is what...nearly 200 issues with all of the Mirage and Image comics combined? How many of those are memorable?

05-11-2009, 04:09 PM	#26
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Agreed, but since all the TMNT runs have been so short (number-wise) it really hurts the argument a bit on behalf of TMNT. Anybody could dig up great issues of ANY book, but the fact that so many issues of each TMNT series were either forgettable, fill-ins, or "not great" hurts it more than, say, a book like Batman that's had hundreds of issues by hundreds of different writers/artists. All of the TMNT series could have been a lot tighter. That's not to say you can't still cherry-pick the gems, but I didn't think we were talking in that respect. As a whole, I'd still have to say each series wasn't as good as it could have been, especially the in-house product, but there were always flashes of brilliance.

05-11-2009, 04:52 PM	#28
trustno1 Foot Soldier Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 117	i was thinking about all this and given what tristan and paul did with hun in tales #56, i think they would be perfect for something along the lines of an ultimate ninja turtles comic line. i would love to see them re-do classic stories the way they reinterpreted hun. i am not sure who has been to andres blog or tristans blog lately but it looks like theyt were going to pitch touch and go at one point. their designs are definitely something i would be into for those characters. even some of the previews of #61 make me wish andres was doing more stories. i think his art is very close to what good modern comics are like these days.

05-11-2009, 05:46 PM	#29
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,946	Peter Laird likely won't have a reboot as long as he's in charge, as seen by his reaction to the Star Trek movie. Maybe 30 years from now when Pete is retired or in his 80's, we'll see TMNT handed off to new creative hands.

05-12-2009, 02:50 PM	#35
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I hate the idea of "Ultimates" and reboots myself pretty much always, but if there was ever a property that really needed a steamlined, "Ultimate"-style makeover that combined what worked from each incarnation and threw out what didn't, TMNT would come to my mind before pretty much anything else.

05-12-2009, 07:55 PM	#36
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14,716	I wish the Dreamwave comics kept going.... shouldn't have wasted time with 'turtles in da hood' and gone straight for the Baxter/Turtlebot 'T4' story.... I mean, we had no comic supporting the show this time... DW TMNT could have been the Archie of today. They both had the same beginning, first few issues based on the show, the rest was all new. What were they thinking when they wasted valauble time and issues with crap like Raph being chased by some deranged psychologist? I was still wondering how the comics would have turned out during the whole Fast Forwad/Back to the Sewers shift? During the whole 'what do we do now with the new TMNT season' hiatus, the comics could have whipped out some awesome FF stories in the meantime...

05-12-2009, 08:10 PM	#37
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,829	Personally, I find that musing over "what could have been" in regards to the Dreamwave series to be a bit pointless. What with Dreamwave having gone bankrupt five years ago and all, the series would have been abruptly cancelled, anyway.

05-12-2009, 08:30 PM	#38
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14,716	Bankrupt... and woulda been abruptly cancelled anyway???? That I did not know.... Either way, someone else should have gotten the rights to make a comic of the 2K3 stuff... we had no modern 'Archie' comic...

05-12-2009, 08:36 PM	#39
plastroncafe PerfectlyTunedFightEngine Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: The Upsidedown Posts: 7,926	I don't think I'm qualified to say whether or not they're good comics, I've got too much nostalgia wrapped up in them. There are certainly stories I like more than others, that's for sure. "Sons of the Silent Age", "The River", "The Dale Evans McGillicutty" story arch, just to name a few.

05-13-2009, 01:11 PM	#40
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I thought the DW series was off to a good start, too. Life can be so unfair.