Are TMNT comics honestly "good comics" by other series standards?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Man, 6 years ago I was pissed.

You really were! Sad to say, you were also pretty much spot-on...

[CyberCubed]

Its kind of ironic how things change. Keep in mind back then in 2009 Volume 4 was on hiatus and we knew Tales was coming to an end, so we thought we weren't going to have *any* TMNT comics for a while. Little did we know the IDW comics would start only 2 years later in 2011.

Then again this is from 6 years ago back in 2009, think about how young and immature we were.

[Mewzard]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Its kind of ironic how things change. Keep in mind back then in 2009 Volume 4 was on hiatus and we knew Tales was coming to an end, so we thought we weren't going to have *any* TMNT comics for a while. Little did we know the IDW comics would start only 2 years later in 2011.

Then again this is from 6 years ago back in 2009, think about how young and immature we were.

Six years ago, I didn't know much of anything about the Turtles Comics (the original movie was my oldest TMNT memory and favorite TMNT thing at the time). It wasn't until I saw Turtles Forever on Youtube (having missed its TV broadcast) that I looked into things and started collecting IDW's Mirage trades, and starting the Archie trades and the IDW series as well.

Since then, I've gotten to read a fair bit (though not all) of TMNT comics.

I'd say it depends on the comic. I agree that Turtles quality in comics can vary (especially in the early Mirage days that were more open to people taking stories in many different directions, though that can also be fun), but there are some gems out there (both by Eastman/Laird and otherwise).

Really, it just depends upon what a person is into. Even good comics can not work with some people. Luckily, each series has its own feel.

[TMNachoT]

Sorry if this was told before in this thread, but have ever been discussed what did idw do to make their tmnt comics more popular than mirage comics?

I have never seen so much information about tmnt comics than these last years with idw, hell, even the news about the "dead" of donatello was published in latin america news sites!! That didn´t happen when splinter died, for example.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by TMNachoT

Sorry if this was told before in this thread, but have ever been discussed what did idw do to make their tmnt comics more popular than mirage comics?

Whew. That's a tall order. Hope you have a few minutes...


Essentially, Mirage wasn't publishing TMNT comics with a wide appeal factor.

The "ongoing" title at the time, TMNT Volume 4, was written in a way that pleased Peter Laird but wasn't exactly energetic or attractive to others in its decompressed narrative structure. The plots were meandering and incremental, the dialogue was awkward and unconvincing, and the stories were loaded with Laird's personal politics and consumer opinions in a way that felt insincere and off-putting whether you agreed with his views or otherwise (even if you LIKED Macs, did you really want the story to come to a halt for a whole page so Donatello could pitch the brand?).

It also featured art that long-time TMNT fans were no doubt either used to or enjoyed (Lawson's work), but had a very "indie" look that wouldn't offer mass appeal (mainstream reviews for the Ubisoft game TMNT Smash-Up universally panned Lawson's cut scene art work). And, of course, black and white comics just don't attract the way color comics do; a sad reality of business.

Then there was the hiatus and publishing schedule, but that goes without saying.

Tales of the TMNT Volume 2 was a different story altogether. It was published on time every month and frequently featured fresh artists and some good stories (and some crap, but that's how anthologies go).

The problem with that series was that the stories typically required a functioning, sometimes ENCYCLOPEDIC knowledge of Mirage's TMNT history. Where this or that story slots into the chronology, what this story is a sequel/prequel to, what events they're referencing and so on.

The problem with THAT is that Mirage hadn't made their older TMNT comics available in trade in a very, very long time. Older collections were out of print for a decade or more and in their final years, they only released ONE trade of old material; a trade which quickly went out of print and became a high dollar collectors item overnight. And THAT was, again, the fault of Peter Laird, who wanted to personally remaster the tones and dialogue of every issue ever published and after 10 years of lollygagging only produced one remaster, which was received so negatively he gave up on the whole project.

And the trades that WERE released, the handful of Tales Volume 2 trades and the one TMNT Vol. 1 trade they got out, were direct market only, meaning they were exclusive to comic shops supported by Diamond. That meant they were unavailable to major chain retailors (this was because Mirage couldn't handle the unsold books/return policies of major retailers). So the trades simply weren't obtainable to mass audiences.

And hell, as much as I enjoyed many of the stories in Tales Vol. 2, it was often just as guilty of alienating readers as TMNT Vol. 4, but with Steve Murphy's bewildering political opinions in place of Laird's. And the fact that it was constantly initiating storylines and never following through on them likely lost numerous readers who were simply looking for a hook and never received one.


Essentially, everything Mirage COULD do wrong from a business and storytelling standpoint, they DID do wrong. I'm starting to remember while I was so irritated when I wrote my initial post in this thread 6 years ago. Hindsight is 20/20 and things are great now, but living through the pathetic decline of Mirage a half-decade ago, it was a bit infuriating.


But now look at how IDW handles things.

They have a consistent ongoing with art that attracts and storytelling that doesn't alienate readers by calling them names if they disagree with the writer's blog posts. Their secondary titles tie into the main book while functioning as their own thing and can appeal to niche fanbases both within and outside of the TMNT community.

They have FLOODED the market with trades collecting older TMNT comics from every avenue; their own stuff, Mirage stuff, Archie stuff. The trades are available from every major outlet and are easy to acquire. If some title references something from a 20 year-old Mirage TMNT comic, there isn't a feeling of "I guess I'll never know what's going on"; you can ALWAYS find a collection with the resources you want to learn more about (well, almost; but they're getting there soon).

They have tie-ins to the mainstream kid-centric media. They don't always succeed, but they've kept the material out there and available in different avenues (the mini fun packs being a neat idea) for years and have been experimenting along the way. Mirage's lone attempt to tie-in with their kid off-shoot properties during the 2000s was the Imagi TMNT movie prequel miniseries and that was a humiliating disaster.


IDW has been handling the TMNT brand competently from a business AND a storytelling standpoint and it has been a huge success because of it.

Mirage, in their twilight years, became more about feeding Laird's ego (and to an extent, Steve Murphy's) with the comics published for mass consumption existing as a consequence of that, not so much the central force. Laird, I suppose, was wealthy enough at the time that if he wanted to publish a book about how Republicans were the devil or PC users were morons or how Moto Guzzi was the ubermensch of motorcycles and anyone who disagrees can eat dirt, then he could and just suffer the deficit to his budget. But unlike Mirage, MOST businesses exist to make a profit.

I mean, I'll concede that those final years of Mirage TMNT comics were comics with "integrity", I guess, as Laird certainly never compromised any of his opinions or views to appease a consumer base. But from a mainstream consumer standpoint, they had next to no appeal and next to no availability, anyway.

IDW knows what its doing and the results speak for themselves.

[shuriken]

^^ I agree wholeheartedly. And as time progressed, I just decided to ignore Volume 4...

[DrSpengler]

Hmmm, I think my above post is just a rewording of my original post from half a decade ago.

I guess some feelings never change no matter how much time has passed.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

I guess some feelings never change no matter how much time has passed.

Its also hard to recommend Volume 4 as a whole knowing it was left unfinished. If anything I'd recommend new people to read up to issue #11 which covers Splinters funeral and then stop from there. In fact the first 11 issues of Volume 4 make a pretty decent "conclusion" to Mirage right there and is a decent stopping point.

Maybe someday if PL finishes it then I would recommend people read it overall.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Spoiler:

Whew. That's a tall order. Hope you have a few minutes...


Essentially, Mirage wasn't publishing TMNT comics with a wide appeal factor.

The "ongoing" title at the time, TMNT Volume 4, was written in a way that pleased Peter Laird but wasn't exactly energetic or attractive to others in its decompressed narrative structure. The plots were meandering and incremental, the dialogue was awkward and unconvincing, and the stories were loaded with Laird's personal politics and consumer opinions in a way that felt insincere and off-putting whether you agreed with his views or otherwise (even if you LIKED Macs, did you really want the story to come to a halt for a whole page so Donatello could pitch the brand?).

It also featured art that long-time TMNT fans were no doubt either used to or enjoyed (Lawson's work), but had a very "indie" look that wouldn't offer mass appeal (mainstream reviews for the Ubisoft game TMNT Smash-Up universally panned Lawson's cut scene art work). And, of course, black and white comics just don't attract the way color comics do; a sad reality of business.

Then there was the hiatus and publishing schedule, but that goes without saying.

Tales of the TMNT Volume 2 was a different story altogether. It was published on time every month and frequently featured fresh artists and some good stories (and some crap, but that's how anthologies go).

The problem with that series was that the stories typically required a functioning, sometimes ENCYCLOPEDIC knowledge of Mirage's TMNT history. Where this or that story slots into the chronology, what this story is a sequel/prequel to, what events they're referencing and so on.

The problem with THAT is that Mirage hadn't made their older TMNT comics available in trade in a very, very long time. Older collections were out of print for a decade or more and in their final years, they only released ONE trade of old material; a trade which quickly went out of print and became a high dollar collectors item overnight. And THAT was, again, the fault of Peter Laird, who wanted to personally remaster the tones and dialogue of every issue ever published and after 10 years of lollygagging only produced one remaster, which was received so negatively he gave up on the whole project.

And the trades that WERE released, the handful of Tales Volume 2 trades and the one TMNT Vol. 1 trade they got out, were direct market only, meaning they were exclusive to comic shops supported by Diamond. That meant they were unavailable to major chain retailors (this was because Mirage couldn't handle the unsold books/return policies of major retailers). So the trades simply weren't obtainable to mass audiences.

And hell, as much as I enjoyed many of the stories in Tales Vol. 2, it was often just as guilty of alienating readers as TMNT Vol. 4, but with Steve Murphy's bewildering political opinions in place of Laird's. And the fact that it was constantly initiating storylines and never following through on them likely lost numerous readers who were simply looking for a hook and never received one.


Essentially, everything Mirage COULD do wrong from a business and storytelling standpoint, they DID do wrong. I'm starting to remember while I was so irritated when I wrote my initial post in this thread 6 years ago. Hindsight is 20/20 and things are great now, but living through the pathetic decline of Mirage a half-decade ago, it was a bit infuriating.


But now look at how IDW handles things.

They have a consistent ongoing with art that attracts and storytelling that doesn't alienate readers by calling them names if they disagree with the writer's blog posts. Their secondary titles tie into the main book while functioning as their own thing and can appeal to niche fanbases both within and outside of the TMNT community.

They have FLOODED the market with trades collecting older TMNT comics from every avenue; their own stuff, Mirage stuff, Archie stuff. The trades are available from every major outlet and are easy to acquire. If some title references something from a 20 year-old Mirage TMNT comic, there isn't a feeling of "I guess I'll never know what's going on"; you can ALWAYS find a collection with the resources you want to learn more about (well, almost; but they're getting there soon).

They have tie-ins to the mainstream kid-centric media. They don't always succeed, but they've kept the material out there and available in different avenues (the mini fun packs being a neat idea) for years and have been experimenting along the way. Mirage's lone attempt to tie-in with their kid off-shoot properties during the 2000s was the Imagi TMNT movie prequel miniseries and that was a humiliating disaster.


IDW has been handling the TMNT brand competently from a business AND a storytelling standpoint and it has been a huge success because of it.

Mirage, in their twilight years, became more about feeding Laird's ego (and to an extent, Steve Murphy's) with the comics published for mass consumption existing as a consequence of that, not so much the central force. Laird, I suppose, was wealthy enough at the time that if he wanted to publish a book about how Republicans were the devil or PC users were morons or how Moto Guzzi was the ubermensch of motorcycles and anyone who disagrees can eat dirt, then he could and just suffer the deficit to his budget. But unlike Mirage, MOST businesses exist to make a profit.

I mean, I'll concede that those final years of Mirage TMNT comics were comics with "integrity", I guess, as Laird certainly never compromised any of his opinions or views to appease a consumer base. But from a mainstream consumer standpoint, they had next to no appeal and next to no availability, anyway.

IDW knows what its doing and the results speak for themselves.

The only thing DrSpengler forgot to say was "Drop the mic, walk off-stage." Nailed it.

[DrSpengler]

I try not to be so negative anymore, I really do. But when I think hard about Mirage's attitude during the 2000s, it just becomes hard to find anything nice to say.

I mean, publishing only two parts of a three-part story and then moving onto other things because the writer "lost interest"? Who DOES that? WHY would any publisher do that?

Can you imagine if Mirage had published Return to New York Parts 1 and 2, but then decided not to do Part 3 because "nah, let's do something else"? Or if they'd gotten halfway through City at War then dropped the storyline entirely because the writers got bored with it and then changed plots?

It would be almost impossible to believe. But Mirage was pulling that all throughout the 2000s.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

I try not to be so negative anymore, I really do. But when I think hard about Mirage's attitude during the 2000s, it just becomes hard to find anything nice to say.

I mean, publishing only two parts of a three-part story and then moving onto other things because the writer "lost interest"? Who DOES that? WHY would any publisher do that?

Can you imagine if Mirage had published Return to New York Parts 1 and 2, but then decided not to do Part 3 because "nah, let's do something else"? Or if they'd gotten halfway through City at War then dropped the storyline entirely because the writers got bored with it and then changed plots?

It would be almost impossible to believe. But Mirage was pulling that all throughout the 2000s.

And the biggest problem is that the only stories that could have really mattered, that could have had a place in the TMNT continuity as more than just a "remember the time you fought a werewolf and Mikey got chickenpox?"... they were ALL swept under the rug and forgotten.

The Foot Mystics' vendetta against Splinter? Never finished.
The Mistress' vendetta against Hamato Yoshi? Never finished.
The Gang War aftermath of "City at War"? Never finished.

Thank God we at least got a conclusion to the Leatherhead/Hamato Hana story... Issues #8, 23, and 34. Unbelievable.

[TMNachoT]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Whew. That's a tall order. Hope you have a few minutes...

I had, thank you for taking the time to write that. Shame the guys at mirage weren´t bolder or riskier at the moment to make their titles more popular and/or easy to get them besides comic shops.

So, Mirage comics could have been a more popular and successful comics if they had

-Changed from b&w to color
-A better knowledge of Mirage's TMNT history
-Released more collected books, reprints and TPB´s
-Sold the titles to chain retailors, newspapers stands and stuff

[CyberCubed]

I doubt Volume 4 being in color would have help sales any. Volume 2 being in color didn't make a difference.

[TMNachoT]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I doubt Volume 4 being in color would have help sales any.

Color as a part of other ways to increase sales.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Volume 2 being in color didn't make a difference.

They didn´t hire the right person to do the coloring.

[Powder]

To be fair, most color comics from that time look pretty sh*t to us now. The technology was new, then.

[Stugehen]

It’s crazy to read all the old posts. I can’t imagine what it was like to be a fan at that time. At least the 2003 series was ongoing and good right?

All I can say is I owe my TMNT fandom to the folks at IDW and Mark. I liked the movies and toon as a kid, but once IDW started publishing all the old stuff along with their series I got sucked in, which led me to Mark’s blog to make sense of it all. I’ve now spent a sh*t ton of money buying this stuff. Hell, I even started a spreadsheet to track what I’ve got and still need. Its money well spent though.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Stugehen

It’s crazy to read all the old posts. I can’t imagine what it was like to be a fan at that time. At least the 2003 series was ongoing and good right?.

By 2009 the 2k3 series was over. Turtles Forever aired in early 2009 and functioned as the series finale.

So with the show over and the comics coming to an end, we pretty much thought TMNT was going to be dead in the near future.

[TMNachoT]

Originally Posted by Powder

To be fair, most color comics from that time look pretty sh*t to us now. The technology was new, then.

The Batman Adventures comics (based on btas) looked good to me, at least better than tmnt vol. 2, and technology not always is necessary to make a good color book, that is why i did not like de DW TMNT comics, but of course, it is a matter of taste.

[Powder]

Well, Batman Adventures had a very flat cel-shaded style to match it's cartoon counterpart, so of course it worked out just fine. I'm speaking on books that were done in the same photoshop style as TMNT. They were all pretty crummy. & yeah, traditional colors can look perfectly fine, no argument there. Perhaps that's what vol. 2 should have done (though frankly I prefer black & white across the board).

[TMNachoT]

Originally Posted by Powder

Well, Batman Adventures had a very flat cel-shaded style to match it's cartoon counterpart, so of course it worked out just fine. I'm speaking on books that were done in the same photoshop style as TMNT. They were all pretty crummy. & yeah, traditional colors can look perfectly fine, no argument there. Perhaps that's what vol. 2 should have done (though frankly I prefer black & white across the board).

It´s true, but still it´s more appealing to me. B&W are cool to me too.