08-06-2016, 10:22 PM | #81 | |
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I personally have a big issue with gravity, in that, it keeps me from flying. That's a super piss-off. I also don't like how it breaks my dishes, like all the damned time. It's not about reducing us to robots, but better understanding what we are. One of the better examples, in another video I haven't linked, talks about our punitive justice system, and how, if we were to truly be fair and just, knowing what we know, instead of reprimanding the criminal, we'd punish the system that created the criminal, or perhaps the system, and the criminal. Taking it a step further, maybe we don't punish anyone, and instead, mend the part of the system that created the criminal behavior. Now, sure that's a difficult topic, give the numerous variety of crimes, and vast number committed, but if we really don't have free will, then where does responsibility lie? Again, if you're like me, the immediate reaction is "what? people shouldn't be held responsible? Rapists and murderers aren't deserving of swift justice? Our brains say yes... mine and yours, BUT the argument might be, in direct opposition to what we feel, which again, is something we might not be able to trust. I'm a huge proponent for personal responsibility, and yet, I believe their argument. My brain and my values, all say otherwise. Crazy. The entire channel is good. You may dislike me, but I have good taste. |
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08-07-2016, 07:27 AM | #82 |
[sic]
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I am the devil.
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08-07-2016, 08:12 AM | #83 |
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Exactly. Take away the conscious and spiritual aspect of humanity and all you have is an unintelligent animal with no impulse control. We are better than that.
And how do you decide to do something after the signal is sent? That makes no sense. There cannot BE a signal until after you consciously decide to take rhe action! Thought comes first. That is simple logic. Action cannot occur before the mind telks it to. The only actions that occur without thinking are those that are automatic responses. Like breathing. That is all. There are two types of nerve responses for a reason. Higher voluntary acts are made by a conscious decision by the cerebral cortex- where we THINK. Involuntary reflexs are the only ones made without the mind involved. Cmon this is basic biology here.
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08-07-2016, 08:33 AM | #84 |
Just...way too serious.
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Actually, that's not entirely true. Most animals have a sympathetic nervous system which can react without thought. Cats for example rely much mire on the sympathetic nervous system for their actions than thinking through what they are doing. Driven by instinct, as it were.
However, while humans do have a sympathetic nervous system, we evolved the capability for higher thought and have the ability to weigh decisions and imagine consequences. I know I don't act impulsively on anything, in fact peope get angry with me because it sometimes takes me awhile to make a decision. Like a chess game. Even if that video is right, why would it be scary? Its just how it is. But I do not buy their theory.
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08-07-2016, 08:50 AM | #85 |
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That was my point as well. Involuntary actions are mostly instinctive. But we are capable of overriding many of them by conscious thought- such as intentionally holding our breath for a predetermined length of time. Basically they are putting the cart before the horse and saying that the body responds to a signal that hasnt even been sent yet, since the thought/idea/choice of taking an action IS the signal being sent! So there is a contradiction right there. I dont buy into this "everything is automatic" line of thinking that tries to reduce all of life to simple chemical and electrical reactions. We are more than that. Heck even a snail is more than that. Remember tbescene in The Fly where they tested the teleporter on the monkey? It had no idea how to put him back together again. It turned him into mush. We are more than the sum of our parts......
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08-07-2016, 10:15 AM | #86 | |
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Exactly! but that's what the tests show. We act before we think to act. It's strange. |
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08-07-2016, 10:26 AM | #87 |
[sic]
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I wish Zack Snyder was a member here. He'd set this thread straight.
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08-07-2016, 10:38 AM | #88 |
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08-07-2016, 10:48 AM | #89 | |
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These folks are pretty smart. |
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08-07-2016, 11:24 AM | #90 | |
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Upset over something? Even if it's stupid to act out? (i.e. Riot and vandalism in Philly after their team won.) I know, lets form an angry mob and burn down half the town without thought. Personally I don't get how people can fall into behaving that way. When did the rational conscious mind stop saying "Whoa, wtf are you thinking/doing?" |
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08-07-2016, 01:26 PM | #91 | |
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As a secondary question, the idea was suggested that this theory brings up whether or not a person is responsible for their own actions if their brain is steering the ship. (And I will mention again that the brain is where conscious thought resides so what ELSE would one expect?) If a person isn't responsible due to lack of conscious will being exerted over their own actions (as they suggest) then who orvwhat IS? The answer is nobody. No matter how you try to slice it, there is no outside force MAKING anyone do anything against their own judgement. This theory borders on "devil made me do it" territory, which is reason enough to dismiss it. It is pseudoscience and nothing more.
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08-07-2016, 08:03 PM | #92 | |||
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There have been psychology studies where they've given subjects a shot of adrenaline and then put them in a waiting room with actors instructed to express a certain emotional state. The test subjects began to mimic the emotional state of what ever actors were in their vicinity. Subjects who were in a room of people pretending to be sad, became sad. Angry, became angry. Happy....etc.
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08-07-2016, 08:47 PM | #93 | |
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08-07-2016, 09:07 PM | #94 | |||
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http://www.psychwiki.com/wiki/The_Sc...irical_Support If nothing else, there are some citations for primary sources at the bottom. A note, it would appear that my exact recollection of the study wasn't 100% accurate. Only two emotional states were studied: anger and euphoria. No sadness. My bad. (It's been well over a decade since I studied this...)
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08-07-2016, 10:05 PM | #95 |
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Cool, thanks for the link.
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08-07-2016, 10:08 PM | #96 |
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Even though I don't practice religion, I do have a religion, only because my parents had a religion and so on and so forth. But they weren't very religious either so...
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08-07-2016, 10:48 PM | #97 |
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I'm not even entirely sure what we're "supposed to be," or rather what family has tended to be prior, I think maybe Presbyterian?
I've never been religious, nor my parents, my mom's parents never spoke a word about that topic so I can only assume they were no different. My dad's side is pretty evenly split between Christians and atheists. I'm not quite sure how that happened. lol And he was one of seven kids, so there's quite a few relatives on his side so it's not just a few close relatives the divide sits between. Fortunately everyone keeps it pretty civil about that topic and just avoids it at most get togethers. |
08-08-2016, 12:38 AM | #98 | |
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Says the Wiccan? Lol, don't be that girl...
It's a mixed panel, but far more reputable than waving sage in the air, like you just don't care. I'll give you the neuro market is saturated, with fakes making up a good number, but this is just the tip of the ice burg. It's generally accepted that free will is bollocks. Quote:
If we both went to church/worshiped/sacrificed virgins to volcanos, We'd still be pretty much the same people. Good is a word derrived from the word god only; being a kind person requires no supervision or lecture. Last edited by Commenter 42; 08-08-2016 at 01:07 AM. |
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08-08-2016, 02:01 AM | #99 | ||||
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Now, you may want to claim that we can indeed measure these things by measuring the electrical signals that pule throughout our brain, but the electrical signals themselves are not the IMMATERIAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs that I experience, they are electrical signals which lack meaning outside of what our immaterial thoughts and imagination give them. The proper way to investigate MENTAL thoughts, ideas, values and beliefs would be through MENTAL introspection, an entirely different field of study from science, which concerns itself with perceived objective reality through the repeated tests and observation of PHYSICAL stimuli in order to figure out how the PHYSICAL world works. Quote:
"And how does your question begin to solve for the question of free will? Does my playstation have free will? My TV?" It solves the question by talking about my immaterial self which I and you can experience. This immaterial soul is not bound by the laws of physics due to its non physical nature, and is thus exempt from determinism. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in physical determinism, and that any ideas of physical reality being different rest solely in our non-physical mind. I find the parallel between mind/body and electrical currents and the picture you see on television to be fallacious. Firstly, because the television image is not IMMATERIAL, looking closely at the image on the screen will allow you to see the individual PHYSICAL pixels which are caused by the PHYSICAL currents running across the PHYSICAL currents. So of course, your television and PlayStation don't have free will, as everything about them is physical from (aside from the meaning we assign to them using our non-physical mind), thus they are bound by the laws of cause and effect. I found it dishonest for one of the speakers to rule out the existence of anything thats not physical due to the lack of evidence, because firstly, they were searching for the immaterial in the wrong places by examining the physical brain, which of course won't show you anything immaterial as it is a physical organ. You look for the immaterial by using your immaterial mind. No matter how much they try, scientists cannot see the immaterial image of the bluebird flying in my head by looking at the electrical currents that run through my physical brain. Physical currents are not the imagined bluebird itself. Also, if one of the speakers bothered to investigate the problem of premium free will which they cited as one of the 3 options on the gas station, they would've been forced to conclude that science cannot answer the immaterial. I found it a cop out to just label the option as "Archaic" and not even attempt to honestly investigate it just because it dwells into a completely different realm that science cannot answer. "There's arguments to be made that you, are not even "in" your brain, let alone "images". I agree, I do not believe I am my brain, and/or my body or even inside of them. I believe I am an immaterial soul, independent of my physical body which feels physical sensations via a physical body, It is my mind which interprets the physical body as my own and the world around me, giving meaning to everything. I do not believe the immaterial images I imagine such as bluebirds and gardens, are even in my brain technically, because of their non-physical nature. Being non-physical would make the mind beyond time and space. I guess this makes me a dualist.
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08-08-2016, 03:38 AM | #100 |
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We won't agree. I'm a solid materialist, not a dualist, which Seems to be what you ascribe to.
There's a new article on the brain as a quantum field. I'll find the link and post it. I'll respond to your other points when it's not so late. |
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