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Old 10-22-2021, 12:21 PM   #141
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Additionally, I found it interesting that Carol referred to Tom as Pie Face all the way to 1994!

So Barry or Ollie, who is Hal's best friend?
Everybody called him "Pieface" or "Pie" into the 2000s. No one was calling him Tom ever until people started getting offended for him.

Ollie is his best friend. As much as Geoff wanted it to be Barry and tried to force the narrative.

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Old 10-22-2021, 09:11 PM   #142
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Everybody called him "Pieface" or "Pie" into the 2000s. No one was calling him Tom ever until people started getting offended for him.

Ollie is his best friend. As much as Geoff wanted it to be Barry and tried to force the narrative.
I always thought Barry was despite the sharing the spotlight with Ollie in the 1970s.There is also the Waid mini Flash/Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold. I thought Wally and Kyle as close friends was forced because of the idea that Green lanterns are meant to be close friends with flashes. I don't have a preference.
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Old 10-22-2021, 09:38 PM   #143
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I missed the 70s so as a kid I always thought it was Barry and Hal who were best friends. In the 80s and early-90s, that's how DC mostly presented it. In fact, during the "Return of Barry Allen" storyline back then, they specifically had Hal come in and (mistakenly) vouch for "Barry" (secretly Zoom), because he was considered the one most likely to know if he was legit, since they had been "best friends". They also did a few flashback stories to when Barry was alive, and there they also presented Hal and Barry as best friends.

I was aware that Hal and Ollie had a long history together, but at one point it seemed to me like most of their connection was based on the fact that they both wore green. Zero Hour was honestly the first time I, personally, ever read a story where Ollie was explicitly presented to be Hal's "best friend". And then after Hal came back they definitely reset it and made it much more explicitly clear that it was Hal and Ollie.

So I guess in the grand scheme of things, it's been Hal and Ollie who were best friends. But there was definitely a time when they got away from that and tried to push it so that Hal and Barry were closer.

Just an observation, but to me Hal and Ollie's relationship always seemed a bit too antagonistic to be completely "sincere", insofar as being Best Friends goes. Like GOOD friends maybe, but the Hal/Barry stories always presented them in a way that made it look a little bit more... I'unno... "friendly".

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I thought Wally and Kyle as close friends was forced because of the idea that Green lanterns are meant to be close friends with flashes.
I did kinda get that vibe too, for a minute, yeah. At the end of the day, it makes sense for those two specifically though, since both of them were tasked with carrying on and living up to the impossible legacy of their predecessors. It does make sense that there would be a certain kinship there, for sure.

But as a kid there was definitely a minute where I wasn't thinking that deeply about it, and just figured it was as you said, "Flash hangs out with Green Lantern, no matter who's in the suits."
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:00 AM   #144
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I missed the 70s too, but it was the best decade of comics. The back issue bin is full of treasures and runs to form.

Going back to Mongul and Cyborg Superman's plan. What exactly were they trying to achieve by removing Coast City and Metropolis from the map? Why those two cities? What exactly is an engine city? I don't get how a planet can become a Deathstar battle ship.
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:22 AM   #145
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I missed the 70s too, but it was the best decade of comics. The back issue bin is full of treasures and runs to form.

Going back to Mongul and Cyborg Superman's plan. What exactly were they trying to achieve by removing Coast City and Metropolis from the map? Why those two cities? What exactly is an engine city? I don't get how a planet can become a Deathstar battle ship.
Mongul's M.O. is usually to develop a world into "warworld" IIRC.

On that note, one of my favorite Superman books of all-time is Superman Annual #11. It's one of the better Mongul stories in general and also widely considered one of the best Superman stories of all-time. By coincidence it was also the first comic book I ever owned. Definitely recommended reading.

To the thread at hand though - the way that the Death of Superman informed the direction of Green Lantern for years to come was awesome. It was expertly woven.....
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:29 AM   #146
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They were basically gonna retrofit Earth into Warworld, that giant Death Star-kinda planetoid spaceship that Mongul uses to go around enslaving galaxies and whatnot.

Superman had already wrecked the original a few years earlier, so Mongul was still pretty pissed about that by the time he ran into who would become Cyborg Superman out in space. Cyborg Superman had gone mad after his family died, and he came to blame Superman for it. So ultimately, the plan was that together, they'd turn Earth into a new Warworld with Mongul ostensibly as its figurehead ruler as he'd been before, but with Cyborg Superman as the one really in charge. They'd kill and enslave everyone on Earth, and then they'd go around enslaving planets and galaxies together all over the universe. And the real kicker, everyone would think that Superman was the one who was actually responsible for it all, since while he'd been dead the Cyborg Superman had essentially fooled everyone into thinking he was the real Superman back from the dead. So he was gonna enslave the universe in Superman's name using Earth/Warworld as the gun. Pretty evil.

Why specifically Coast City and Metropolis to be turned into Engine Cities, I know they mentioned some of it but I don't know if they specifically mentioned all of it. I think that specifically, the fact that they were two coastal cities was of importance, like it would maximize the damage globally, help fracture the fault lines quicker, cause massive flooding and all of that stuff. There was a strategic element to it, but I can't remember when or how deeply they address it, I just know that they did, to some degree.

I'm pretty sure Metropolis was also picked for the fact that it was Superman's city. Part of the plan was to frame Superman for murdering the universe, so to start by having "him" kill off his adopted hometown would again be really, really twisted. I don't think that, in-story, either of the bad guys had any particular beef with Coast City; it just happened to be there.

Editorially, obviously, Coast City was picked because it fit directly into DC's plans for Hal and Zero Hour. But in-story I'm pretty sure it was just dumb luck that they got hit.

"Engine City" is exactly what it sounds like: A giant city-sized engine that would help quickly retrofit Earth into Warworld. I believe at least one of them was going to also be part of the propulsion system that would have helped the new Warworld travel through space, had the villains succeeded. There were ultimately going to be more "Engine Cities" all over the globe at strategically-placed points. But basically, the short of it is that if they had managed to just turn those two coastal cities into Engine Cities, the damage to the planet would already be so catastrophic that most of the work would have been done.

Much of the Engine City was constructed of similar morphing, self-replicating and shape-shifting alloy as the Cyborg himself, so the cities would essentially "grow" from seeds into giant self-sustaining engines. He could also control any or all of it with his mind, which was even more dangerous; he could essentially BECOME the City anytime he wanted to.

Anyway, it's Comic Book Science. The guy's got Kryptonian Morphing Alloy and he's essentially just a consciousness that can control anything mechanical. You can't really overthink it. It's Bad Sh*t is the point. I mean, we're left to assume this is pretty much how Mongul made all his other Warworlds, before and since, since he's had others but this is the only time they ever bothered showing any part of the How.

Pretty nasty. Not a bad plan, as far as plans go. Except for, y'know, Superman not staying dead kinda f*cked the whole thing up for 'em. I don't see who would've stopped them otherwise, though. They pretty much had it nailed before he showed up. As he does.
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Old 10-23-2021, 10:29 AM   #147
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They were basically gonna retrofit Earth into Warworld, that giant Death Star-kinda planetoid spaceship that Mongul uses to go around enslaving galaxies and whatnot.

Superman had already wrecked the original a few years earlier, so Mongul was still pretty pissed about that by the time he ran into who would become Cyborg Superman out in space. Cyborg Superman had gone mad after his family died, and he came to blame Superman for it. So ultimately, the plan was that together, they'd turn Earth into a new Warworld with Mongul ostensibly as its figurehead ruler as he'd been before, but with Cyborg Superman as the one really in charge. They'd kill and enslave everyone on Earth, and then they'd go around enslaving planets and galaxies together all over the universe. And the real kicker, everyone would think that Superman was the one who was actually responsible for it all, since while he'd been dead the Cyborg Superman had essentially fooled everyone into thinking he was the real Superman back from the dead. So he was gonna enslave the universe in Superman's name using Earth/Warworld as the gun. Pretty evil.

Why specifically Coast City and Metropolis to be turned into Engine Cities, I know they mentioned some of it but I don't know if they specifically mentioned all of it. I think that specifically, the fact that they were two coastal cities was of importance, like it would maximize the damage globally, help fracture the fault lines quicker, cause massive flooding and all of that stuff. There was a strategic element to it, but I can't remember when or how deeply they address it, I just know that they did, to some degree.

I'm pretty sure Metropolis was also picked for the fact that it was Superman's city. Part of the plan was to frame Superman for murdering the universe, so to start by having "him" kill off his adopted hometown would again be really, really twisted. I don't think that, in-story, either of the bad guys had any particular beef with Coast City; it just happened to be there.

Editorially, obviously, Coast City was picked because it fit directly into DC's plans for Hal and Zero Hour. But in-story I'm pretty sure it was just dumb luck that they got hit.

"Engine City" is exactly what it sounds like: A giant city-sized engine that would help quickly retrofit Earth into Warworld. I believe at least one of them was going to also be part of the propulsion system that would have helped the new Warworld travel through space, had the villains succeeded. There were ultimately going to be more "Engine Cities" all over the globe at strategically-placed points. But basically, the short of it is that if they had managed to just turn those two coastal cities into Engine Cities, the damage to the planet would already be so catastrophic that most of the work would have been done.

Much of the Engine City was constructed of similar morphing, self-replicating and shape-shifting alloy as the Cyborg himself, so the cities would essentially "grow" from seeds into giant self-sustaining engines. He could also control any or all of it with his mind, which was even more dangerous; he could essentially BECOME the City anytime he wanted to.

Anyway, it's Comic Book Science. The guy's got Kryptonian Morphing Alloy and he's essentially just a consciousness that can control anything mechanical. You can't really overthink it. It's Bad Sh*t is the point. I mean, we're left to assume this is pretty much how Mongul made all his other Warworlds, before and since, since he's had others but this is the only time they ever bothered showing any part of the How.

Pretty nasty. Not a bad plan, as far as plans go. Except for, y'know, Superman not staying dead kinda f*cked the whole thing up for 'em. I don't see who would've stopped them otherwise, though. They pretty much had it nailed before he showed up. As he does.
I had assumed that Cyborg Superman was acting as an agent for Mongul to decide where to attack. Seems like a large unpopulated area, but whatever they are evil! However, it seems that Henshaw had contacted Mongul and he is working under Cyborg Superman? It's just tying it to the Death and Return of Superman and wiping out the entire city without Hal Jordan involved at all until that point and despite the massive bloodshed no one actually died. What I mean is no one of actual importance to Hal.

So two engine cities would make the Earth into a ship at the behest of Cyborg Superman? From there Mongul will collect species and bring them to the dying planet for gladitorial combat? Maybe its the Justice League influence that contributing to my confusion. Also, the fact that the biggest Green Lantern tragedy happening in a Superman book without the main character effected. Its seems executed (pun unintended) so poorly by editorial.

I can see Ollie being the best friend over Barry. It upped the emotion for Zero Hour. Also, Hal having revived Ollie would put that as an exclamation point. In Identity Crisis, I reread it a couple months back. Hal tells Ollie that he is working on a way to return to the living. Was that merely a teaser for the editorial green lite return in Green Lantern: Rebirth that was just a few months away? Plot-wise it suggest something, but i assume he really was not working on anything as he had put it.
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Old 10-23-2021, 11:36 AM   #148
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Mongul was working for Cyborg Superman and not the other way around.

Mongul initially fancied himself as the one who'd lead, but Henshaw had other plans and took over from the very beginning. They never really hit it off very well. I always figured Henshaw would have killed Mongul the moment he stopped being useful; he pretty much constantly threatened to do just that.
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Old 10-24-2021, 12:15 PM   #149
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Mongul was working for Cyborg Superman and not the other way around.

Mongul initially fancied himself as the one who'd lead, but Henshaw had other plans and took over from the very beginning. They never really hit it off very well. I always figured Henshaw would have killed Mongul the moment he stopped being useful; he pretty much constantly threatened to do just that.
Having read both Mongul's initial appearance in DCCP#27& 28 and 'For The Man Who Has Everything' I took him for a tyrant. Then the idea of him bowing before Cyborg Superman makes no sense.

I understand now that Cyborg Superman is the recruiter of Mongul and supplied the 77,000 explosives and nanotechnology seeds. Coast City and Metropolis were to be used to control the rotation of the planet.

It is also interesting that aside from Krona that there was no specifically identified Guardian until Ganthet and he appeared in just two stories before Hal Jordan's fall. You would have thought that Ganthet would have had more interaction with Hal beforehand.
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Old 10-24-2021, 12:35 PM   #150
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All this great talk about Mongul as a villain.... Anyone else a fan of this book?



I haven't routinely bought Superman since around the time the "Return of Superman" story wrapped up. But I've got a modest collection related to the character's moments of "greatest stories ever told" runs or issues.....

Another terrific issue:

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Old 10-24-2021, 12:58 PM   #151
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It makes perfect sense if you actually know the characters.

Mongul is a tyrant, an all-around irredeemable "bad guy".

But as bad as he is, Henshaw's worse. Like way, way worse.

That was ultimately the point of the reveal, and it played incredibly well. You're SUPPOSED to think Mongul is the Big Bad, because it's obvious. Then you find out Cyborg is also a bad guy, and you have certain expectations. Then you find out who Cyborg actually IS, and it's like... "Oh, Jesus." He's both evil AND insane. And on top of all that, he's immortal.

As bold as Mongul is, he'd never be crazy enough to aspire to, like, try and take down Darkseid and take over Apokolips. Henshaw would, and (using Doomsday as his weapon) almost did. He's Next-Level.

Superman #81 details the first meeting of Mongul and Henshaw, where their dynamic was established. No one had ever tortured Mongul into submission the way he'd done to so many others. He'd rarely felt pain, and he'd NEVER felt fear. Not until he met someone more ruthless then he was, something he'd never even thought possible. Add on the fact that Mongul had already been brought down by Superman, and Henshaw in his Cyborg Superman form is even MORE powerful than Superman is.

Mongul, also, ultimately isn't very bright, while Henshaw was already a genius even before he became immortal and had access to Kryptonian tech.

So on one hand, you've got a guy who's essentially "just" a big, tough, nigh-indestructible and incredibly ruthless dude... and then here's his boss, who's essentially Satan in robot form.

Seeing Mongul revealed as the lackey and not the mastermind was shocking on purpose, but also, made perfect sense. The reveal of Cyborg as Henshaw and his history with Superman was the clincher. To anyone who'd been following the Superman books for several years, that was literally a "drop-the-book-in-your-lap-in-shock" moment. People had a million theories about Cyborg Superman, but THAT specific reveal was one nobody'd ever even considered. At the same time, it was like "Oh, yeah, duh, I really SHOULD have seen that coming." It was a very smart, really sharp reveal and it went over huge. People loved it.

People were honestly a little bit let down - initially - when it looked like Mongul was the one behind everything. Like it wouldn't have been "bad", it would've been fine, but it was a little too predictable. Then BAM, second twist/reveal, and it wasn't a "cheat" but rather something that paid off a few stories from a few years earlier. And that just made it a slam dunk.

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All this great talk about Mongul as a villain.... Anyone else a fan of this book?

https://i.imgur.com/SjYfmcml.jpg
I've mentioned before, it's easily the best single-issue Superman story ever, before the Byrne reboot happened.

Superman didn't actually really get "good", objectively, until the Byrne reboot in 1986; before that it was 99% fluff for little kids. But every now and then, you had a gem like that one or "Must There Be A Superman?". There are a few good Pre-Crisis Superman stories, but they're rare. "For the Man Who has Everything" is pretty much the definitive "best" of that era. Which would mean more if there wasn't such a low bar.

I'm maaaaaybe the biggest Superman fan. I'd plead the case in court if I had to. BUT. Pre-Byrne Superman is... mostly not good.
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Old 10-24-2021, 03:44 PM   #152
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Happy to know this topic is still alive.

I don't know why, but I was never able to find the GL issues #1-47 (before Emerald Twilight) Except for the issue #46 being included in the "Return of Superman" storyline.

For what I can find on Comixology, Amazon or DC Infinite:

Green Lantern #1-200
GLC #201-210

On paper comic book, I think I didn't find anything after the GL/GA.

After that it goes right to issue #48 for the Emerald Twilight storyline.

Maybe it's because I search for e-comics or collection editions (not really interested in single issues)

So there are a lot of GL issues that were never put in any collections.
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Old 10-24-2021, 05:32 PM   #153
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It makes perfect sense if you actually know the characters.

Mongul is a tyrant, an all-around irredeemable "bad guy".

But as bad as he is, Henshaw's worse. Like way, way worse.

That was ultimately the point of the reveal, and it played incredibly well. You're SUPPOSED to think Mongul is the Big Bad, because it's obvious. Then you find out Cyborg is also a bad guy, and you have certain expectations. Then you find out who Cyborg actually IS, and it's like... "Oh, Jesus." He's both evil AND insane. And on top of all that, he's immortal.

As bold as Mongul is, he'd never be crazy enough to aspire to, like, try and take down Darkseid and take over Apokolips. Henshaw would, and (using Doomsday as his weapon) almost did. He's Next-Level.

Superman #81 details the first meeting of Mongul and Henshaw, where their dynamic was established. No one had ever tortured Mongul into submission the way he'd done to so many others. He'd rarely felt pain, and he'd NEVER felt fear. Not until he met someone more ruthless then he was, something he'd never even thought possible. Add on the fact that Mongul had already been brought down by Superman, and Henshaw in his Cyborg Superman form is even MORE powerful than Superman is.

Mongul, also, ultimately isn't very bright, while Henshaw was already a genius even before he became immortal and had access to Kryptonian tech.

So on one hand, you've got a guy who's essentially "just" a big, tough, nigh-indestructible and incredibly ruthless dude... and then here's his boss, who's essentially Satan in robot form.

Seeing Mongul revealed as the lackey and not the mastermind was shocking on purpose, but also, made perfect sense. The reveal of Cyborg as Henshaw and his history with Superman was the clincher. To anyone who'd been following the Superman books for several years, that was literally a "drop-the-book-in-your-lap-in-shock" moment. People had a million theories about Cyborg Superman, but THAT specific reveal was one nobody'd ever even considered. At the same time, it was like "Oh, yeah, duh, I really SHOULD have seen that coming." It was a very smart, really sharp reveal and it went over huge. People loved it.

People were honestly a little bit let down - initially - when it looked like Mongul was the one behind everything. Like it wouldn't have been "bad", it would've been fine, but it was a little too predictable. Then BAM, second twist/reveal, and it wasn't a "cheat" but rather something that paid off a few stories from a few years earlier. And that just made it a slam dunk.



I've mentioned before, it's easily the best single-issue Superman story ever, before the Byrne reboot happened.

Superman didn't actually really get "good", objectively, until the Byrne reboot in 1986; before that it was 99% fluff for little kids. But every now and then, you had a gem like that one or "Must There Be A Superman?". There are a few good Pre-Crisis Superman stories, but they're rare. "For the Man Who has Everything" is pretty much the definitive "best" of that era. Which would mean more if there wasn't such a low bar.

I'm maaaaaybe the biggest Superman fan. I'd plead the case in court if I had to. BUT. Pre-Byrne Superman is... mostly not good.

Yeah I've been slowly building the Byrne run on and off for a while now. I think between all of the titles I'm only missing a few books. It's a gorgeous run too....
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Old 10-24-2021, 08:31 PM   #154
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Happy to know this topic is still alive.

I don't know why, but I was never able to find the GL issues #1-47 (before Emerald Twilight) Except for the issue #46 being included in the "Return of Superman" storyline.

For what I can find on Comixology, Amazon or DC Infinite:

Green Lantern #1-200
GLC #201-210

On paper comic book, I think I didn't find anything after the GL/GA.

After that it goes right to issue #48 for the Emerald Twilight storyline.

Maybe it's because I search for e-comics or collection editions (not really interested in single issues)

So there are a lot of GL issues that were never put in any collections.
Hey Avenger, I picked up all four parts of 'The Gorilla Warfare' arc between Flash volume 2 and Green Lantern volume 3. This guy has quite a bit of what you are looking for and will adjust the shipping if you ask in a PM ahead of purchase. I got the two Flash issues and two Green Lantern issues for $16 altogether with the combined shipping. I prefer to get the single issues personally. It makes sense for a long-term collection and appreciation. Also, if condition is a concern you can always read it for free online after you get the issue so not to mess up the condition. That is just my take, but if you want Green Lantern volume 3 #1-47 see what this guy has. Also, if Wally's Flash volume is your thing he has many of those for sale as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/143665783978?var=442649449495
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Old 10-24-2021, 11:12 PM   #155
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Yeah, most of the GL run before Emerald Twilight, I don't think, has been collected. I've got most of them, and I don't remember having exactly a big problem finding them... but that's taking into account I buy 99% of my comics at shops and not online.

Also, I bought most of my collection between 2000-2009 and I'd imagine a ton of stuff is harder to find now just in general. Not sure about those.
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Old 10-24-2021, 11:15 PM   #156
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Yeah, most of the GL run before Emerald Twilight, I don't think, has been collected.
Bits and pieces, but not much. And it doesn't help that the pre-Emerald Twilight issues of Vol. 3 were primarily written by who became a tried and convicted kiddie porn baron, Gerard Jones. Dude is still in prison, too.
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Old 10-24-2021, 11:18 PM   #157
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Yeah I've been slowly building the Byrne run on and off for a while now. I think between all of the titles I'm only missing a few books. It's a gorgeous run too....
Byrne's run was great, short as it was. Then it pretty much became "The Jurgens Era", and Jurgens was really great too. Historically, he's always been the guy they call when they need to "fix" whatever they screwed up with Superman. Every few years, they get away from him and give someone else the job... and inevitably, they call him back once it gets off-track.

He's probably the best Superman writer who ever lived. He's definitely got the miles. Art-wise, he's my personal favorite as well but Jim Lee is also really, really good. But between art and writing at the same time, Dan's the only guy who ever did it all for an extended run and did it better than anyone else. He really gets the character, and furthermore, treats it like more than a job.

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Bits and pieces, but not much. And it doesn't help that the pre-Emerald Twilight issues of Vol. 3 were primarily written by who became a tried and convicted kiddie porn baron, Gerard Jones. Dude is still in prison, too.
Jesus, I keep forgetting about that. Yeah, that probably doesn't help.
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Old 10-25-2021, 04:56 PM   #158
MikeandRaph87
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I received this in the mail today!


I am surprised that the Guardians did not have names or distinctive personalities from one another until so late in Hal's 35 year first run.

On a lesser note I was not aware of Gerard Jones. I knew the editor of the book when volume 3 launched Eddie Berganza, was a harassing creep.
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Old 10-25-2021, 05:08 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
I knew the editor of the book when volume 3 launched Eddie Berganza, was a harassing creep.
Berganza's a real piece of sh**. He really ruined a San Diego comic con for me, once.
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Old 10-25-2021, 08:34 PM   #160
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Yeah, it kinda goes to show you how much thought DC put into their books when for literally decades, the Guardians were just "The Guardians".

I really liked it when Appa Ali Apsa ("Old Timer") went mad. That was really neat. Like you'd think that would happen at some point, right? These cosmic, all-powerful beings that are older than the universe... you'd think one of 'em would lose their marbles at some point. Especially since they so often came off as jerkasses to begin with.

That was another thing I loved about Emerald Twilight. Hal finally called the Guardians out on being a pack of assholes, and all they could do was sit there like "......" because it was completely true. Up until then I thought it was just me.
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