Since the quarantine due to Covid-19, how often have you left your house?

[Leo656]

Yeah, my wife's overweight and has some asthma and lung issues and blood pressure problems, so I definitely worry about her. Myself, too, obviously, but I didn't even catch a cold this year (knock on wood) so part of me feels like if I was gonna get it I would've by now, but I'unno.

She, for her part, isn't concerned at all. I'm generally the Cynic and she's the Optimist in our relationship, or rather she's the one more apt to believe The Official Story on anything and I'm generally the one saying "Here's why that's bullsh*t, though," but in this case she's pretty sure that about 1% of what's being reported is true and the rest is all being spun by the media. It's a pretty interesting role reversal!

I do believe there's a virus, sure, and I'm quite certain that a number of people have died from it, so I grudgingly take the recommended precautions but I don't really believe anything else in "The Official Story" because too many things don't add up. Don't ask me to connect the dots on it, because I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but I'm quite certain this was all part of some scheme that maaaaybe got a little out of hand, or maybe it's all going exactly as planned, who knows. Some of our friends who are much, much better at Conspiracy Theorizing than I am paint a pretty convincing picture that this is all much bigger and more orchestrated than anyone knows, and a lot of it makes sense, but I'unno... I HOPE that they're incorrect, for the sake of literally everyone. Because if they're right, then this really ISN'T gonna go away, like ever, because the virus going away isn't part of "the plan". So I HOPE they're wrong. But it all makes a little too much sense, that's all I can say.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

To be fair, there's really no such thing as "going away" when it comes to viruses, because surprise! They mutate! We can't even "cure" the flu or the common cold, so naturally why would this be any different? It may eventually become just another virus we develop a resistance to, but eradicate? Hardly likely. It's out there now, and is going to stay that way.

[neatoman]

So does anyone here think they're asymptomatic carrier by this point?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

We can't even "cure" the flu or the common cold, so naturally why would this be any different?

Ehhhh... I don't buy it. Those "cures" exist, they're just locked away and only for the Special People.

"The System" needs for people to get sick and occasionally die from illness in order to keep the population under control and the medical research business booming. They used to cure a LOT of stuff until they realized they were cutting off their own money tree; that's when "cures" stopped happening and "treatment/management" became the name of the game. Especially when all the manufacturing jobs were outsourced overseas; the ONLY thing the U.S. still produces at a high level is pharmaceuticals, drugs to treat and live with various illnesses. There's a ton of labs all over NY, NJ, and PA, just for example, I used to move 'em all; if people stopped getting sick, millions of Americans would lose their jobs and an entire multi-billion dollar industry would collapse. Those research grants to "study" these things are substantial; likewise, they'll probably be "studying" this one for the next decade while we're all still wearing masks and sitting around waiting to catch it.

Part of why my Dad grew disenfranchised with the industry he was in, was because they 100% shifted their focus from helping people to making money off of them, somewhere between the late-70s and early-80s. It all became about "acceptable losses" and keeping people dependent on the medicine so they could function, but not actually fixing their problems or improving their quality of life in any substantial way. That's been the game ever since.

You can't tell me that they eradicated measles, mumps, polio and smallpox, back when people were generally dumber and had a lot less education and technology than they do right now, but they can't crack the common cold or flu. They can, they have, they did; it just doesn't make good business sense to put it out there for the common rabble. There's more than likely multiple ways to "cure" cancer, too, but cancer is good for business so they have no interest whatsoever in putting a cure out there. You gotta look at the Big Picture with these things. They USED to create cures until Keeping People Sick became a business. NOW they just can't figure anything out. Mighty goddamn convenient!

I do agree that the only real bet is to "develop a resistance" through general herd immunity, but oddly enough... "They" are hellbent on not letting that happen. Rather, "The Rules" are to stay huddled inside and avoid things like fresh air and exercise which actually strengthen your immune system, and they guilt/shame you from even being around people, while openly saying "It's not about if YOU get it, but it's about you not giving it to someone else, you monster!" So let's see... you need a strong immune system to fight off a virus, but you're restricted from doing most of the things that would help in that regard. We shouldn't count on a vaccine, so our only real chance to collectively "get over" it is herd immunity... but that's completely verboten and you're not allowed to even suggest it. Again... this is all very convenient! It's almost.... aaaaaaalmost like they want it to stay this way.

I have a very strong feeling that this is gonna be one of those Highlander II kinda things; "There's no ozone layer anymore, without the shield we'll all die!" when in truth the problem ended up resolving itself and "They" just have a strong vested interest in keeping things Exactly As They Are. If we're still all wearing masks and begging the government for $1200 every three months just to stay alive in another five years from now, then it'll be pretty cut-and-dry what's really going on.

And frankly, that's what I think/fear is gonna happen. Hope I'm wrong, but... eh, how often does THAT happen? Sigh.

Originally Posted by neatoman

So does anyone here think they're asymptomatic carrier by this point?

I've wondered a few times, because I occasionally have a very nasty cough, but I've always had that because I have a pretty bad post-nasal drip issue. I often swallow huge amounts of mucous in my sleep, and after I wake up I spend most of the next few hours struggling to clear it out. If I get a big hit of the Wacky Sh*t, for example, I'll often cough until I spew up a bunch of clear mucous, and then I feel a lot better. But that's nothing new, it's just that recently when it happens I wonder if it's the start of something else.

BUT, I live with three other people and nobody's gotten sick yet and we all spend a lot of time around each other. Plus my wife's grandma came over a bunch before she went on vacation to North Carolina and she hasn't been sick, either. I admit, I DO get a little nervous every time I go shopping or whatever, especially since it supposedly takes two weeks or so to fully develop and show symptoms, but nobody around me has gotten sick so far, thank goodness. So I guess we're all okay.

I always do wonder/worry, just a little bit. I DO believe the virus is a real thing that exists, it's just that that's about the limit of what I believe.

[PizzaPower1985]

You all make very good points here and, while I'm no conspiracy theorist, I do believe that governments have ALWAYS lied about pandemics. Read GUNS, GERMS AND STEEL for more on that... I despise centralized systems in all their forms, be they gov. or economic AND I DO NOT BELIEVE in big gov. But I wonder, IF it isn't time for a basic income for all citizens????? How much longer are we supposed to stay locked down? How many millions of people are NOT going to earn any income for the next 6 months or a year? Are they supposed to starve? No money means their lives and their kids lives will end up pretty desperate... they will be homeless, die of starvation etc. etc. So, what's the outcome here?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Occam's Razor for me. Never doubt the stupidity and incompetence of people.

[Leo656]

We're really only delaying the inevitable. Nothing about Right Now is sustainable.

Whether it's tomorrow or Next Year, here's what's gonna happen: The people who want to go back to work are gonna go back to work. The virus is never going away and no "cure" or vaccine is going to get things back to where they were last year. That's over with. We're never, ever going back to pre-COVID. Not within the next few years anyway.

At some point everyone's just gonna throw up their hands and "re-open" as best they can. People who want to go back to work will sign waivers saying they're working of their own free will and won't/can't sue their employer if they get sick. Masks and sanitizer will be around for the next few years at least. People will still bitch about it, probably with decent cause.

There probably will be some kind of stipend for people who "choose not to work", but it will probably cover the bare minimum of anything, and like regular unemployment, if you make anything at all by way of "real money" it gets taken away. So you'll still have a giant underclass of Can't Work/Won't Work people who just barely scrape by and are most likely living with other people.

Taxes will go up on the people who work to cover the stipend for the people scared of the germs, and everyone will thus still be yelling at each other about What's Really Important. People will still be getting sick and people will still die, but the numbers will be steady enough to be "within reason" and it will be looked at by most people the same way Pneumonia is: Fairly Common and Can Kill You, but most people don't die from it and therefore it's An Acceptable Risk. And thusly, many people five years from now will still be pointing at Spring/Summer of 2020 as a gigantic waste of time when we collapsed the economy for "no good reason" when we could have just "opened up" in May or June to the same result. And others will rebut that "If we kept one person from dying it was worth it" and all'a that jazz.

Basically, at some point we're just gonna have to learn to live with this thing but try and work around it. Right now we're spinning our wheels and not getting anywhere. Again, Pneumonia kills people too; if you work outdoors, though, you can't just call out of work if it's raining, "Because I might catch Pneumonia and die" even though that's technically true. They'll call you a pussy and fire you, and even if you do get Pneumonia and die from working in the rain you can't sue your employer for making you, because dying of Pneumonia is considered "An Acceptable Risk". We'll get there soon with COVID-19 as well, whether anyone admits it or not. It WILL because it has to. It's not going away and we can't just stay where we are.

I imagine that there will have to be some kind of stipend or something set up for the "Just Don't Wanna Risk It" people, because threat of being sued is what's keeping most employers from opening already; most places DO want to open but their staff are threatening to sue them if they get sick, that's the only hangup. So since there's SO many people like that, I imagine that setting up some kind of free check every one to three months might be the only thing close to a "solution". The problem with UBI, though, is simply that once you allow the option for people to not work but still be able to survive, then nobody's ever gonna work again. Sure, everybody covets The Good Life and all that goes with it, but MOST people would be perfectly happy to just "survive" on whatever $1500 or less would bring them, as long as they never had to leave the house, and if you don't believe that then you simply don't know enough people. As is, most of the working class only works just hard enough not to get fired while being paid just barely enough not to quit. Start cutting free checks for everyone who asks, and then your economy REALLY collapses because most people would rather stay home than put up with any bullsh*t whatsoever for a measly $500 more a month than what the government would give them. If a person is making two grand a month going to work, and the government promises them around $1500 to stay home, guess what? They're staying home. Multiply that by a couple million people and you got a big f*cking problem on your hands.

But anyways, yeah, that's all'a my prediction. I can't see it going any differently at all.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

We're really only delaying the inevitable. Nothing about Right Now is sustainable.

Yeah, that all sounds pretty plausible, what you wrote. Wouldn't surprise me.

An economy can't function like this long term.

[PizzaPower1985]

Look at the data. It's a little more complex than that. Human nature is not laziness. Human nature is the self-serving need for fulfillment. First of all, literally every UBI experiment ever attempted has shown absolutely no reduction in hours worked or any other reduced metric for productivity, in fact, distributing money in very poor communities has shown a marked increase in entrepreneurship, people training for new skills, and other metrics for economic improvement. Granted, that most past experiments have been small in scale and limited in time (usually for anywhere from 3-12 years), but all the data we have is promising.

And it makes absolute sense, when you think about it. To assume a truly basic income (as in, right at the poverty line) would increase laziness would be to assume that most people are literally only working because they'd become homeless and starve otherwise. There may be some people for whom that's true, but the vast majority of people want to live life above the level of basic subsistence. If you give them enough money to live in crappy conditions, they'll still want to earn more. In fact, for people who are in abject poverty right now, that money will enable them to earn more, because they can get off the treadmill of working crappy, low-skilled jobs in order to survive one day to the next, and potentially find better employment. Eventually, in the next 20 years, low skilled or no skilled jobs are expected to be replaced by automation and many jobs already have gone extinct. The idea that people are just lazy and only work because they have to has no basis in statistics.

People in prison pray and beg for work. None of them have to work. And work and jobs in prison always leads to happier prisoners, less administrative costs due to less violent crimes and unrest in the penal system. The bottom line is YES, there are lazy people and a few will be absolutely happy with only a monthly stipend for survival. But, most people will need work like they need human companionship and hobbies... to save their own sanity and enrich themselves. All the studies about this "I'll just be lazy and never work again" argument have shown that households in the middle class only reduce their workload by 13% and poor families actually work more or spend more time finding better jobs as they finally see a chance for retirement, or to start a business, or to put their kids through college.

The other thing that a UBI does is improve the social and mental health of society. There are no negatives to a UBI, particularly since we've basically operated under MMT since 1972. Cost is not a factor unless you believe that economic theory is somehow a fluid concept where everything expands and contracts. Greg Mankiw, the economist that helped write the modern economic textbooks that are used in Canadian and American public high schools and universities, has supported a UBI and said it would be more efficient and cheaper than the current welfare state. Means testing always ends in high cost for the system and misery for those it's meant to help. For every million moms with 8 kids who just want gov. cheese and nothing else there are millions more who seek opportunity for self improvement but cannot find it in this modern economy where most jobs are service industry low wage or minimum wage part time gigs.

But, I'm not going to argue with anyone! I've said my peace! Who's for cookies, cake and a round of Kumbaya?

[Leo656]

I'unno maaaaaan. Sounds nice and maybe that's what "they" say but I only call what I see. And I think all of that undercuts how lazy people generally really are. I don't know a single person who'd ever leave their house again, let alone go to work, as long as their "necessities" were provided for.

UBI also isn't great for the "mental health" of the people who work 60-hours a week (when they can, obviously very few people are that "lucky" right now but bear with me) only to have a big chunk of taxes taken out to support those other people. You think people bitch about "freeloaders" NOW? Ooof. I worked a blue collar moving/warehouse job for ten years; nothing those kinda people "love" more than pulling 14-hour shifts or more in 100-degree weather, 6-7 days a week, knowing that they're only getting paid $500 a week and someone else is getting exactly the same thing to NOT do any of that. That's when they start talking about rounding up all the "freeloaders" and gassing 'em. And frankly, it's not hard to see why they can't be bothered to give a sh*t about anyone else's struggle when you yourself are breaking your back to barely scrape by. That's why the very idea of UBI is so outright vulgar to so many people.

It's a great idea for the "Can't Work/Won't Work" types, and I've always said there needs to be "A" safety net or something for those with extreme medical issues or something. But we simply can't have people who break their backs making the same income as people who do comparatively nothing, that simply isn't fair.

The blue collar workers are what keeps the country afloat, they're the majority, and the majority of that majority absolutely don't want to see people being "rewarded" while they themselves work themselves into an early grave out of necessity. Having been there, I have to fall on that side of the line.

As for anything else, I talk to many, many people, and they all tell me quite proudly that they'd be perfectly happy to live a more modest lifestyle so long as they were getting paid to stay at home. So I'unno! You tell me that people aren't lazy, but literally every experience I've ever had with people says the exact opposite! Could be a Coastal thing, but I don't know. Things like "motivation" and "desire for self-improvement" seems to have been bred out of us by now. You can tell me that people would still go to work even if they didn't "have" to; I say, most people can't even be assed to put their shopping cart where it belongs when it's literally eight feet away, so... yeah, I'll believe that people are "driven" when I see it. And I don't see it, sorry! Pretty sure people only work if they HAVE to, and only as much as they're forced to in order to maintain employment. Maybe all that stuff about people was true a few generations ago, but now? Eh, I don't buy it.

I mean, of course most Americans are sloth-like and lazy, the majority of 'em are obese, often morbidly so. You're telling me that THESE slobs are gonna drag themselves off the couch and go "self improve" because they're feeling bored and unfulfilled? Nah. You know a lot of people already on welfare or other assistance? If you cross-check the numbers, almost all fat. Not exclusively, no, but predominantly. They go hand-in-hand. Kind of a Chicken-Or-Egg thing; does being on government assistance make people lazy, OR are lazy people simply more likely to request and receive government assistance? Probably a little of both, honestly. But yeah, we routinely rank higher than just about any other country in the world insofar as being full of fat, lazy, ignorant people, so I don't know where anyone can have such an optimistic prediction of our society once the option for most people to Just Stay Home and get paid becomes reality. WHERE are these hard-working and motivated folks to begin with? Are they just gonna fall out of the sky? I don't know, man. Not being mean, I'm just saying, sounds more like an idealized "I Wish People Were Like This" kinda thing rather than "This is what Americans are Really Like".

But again, I just listen to what people tell me and make my judgment from there. ((Shrug)) They TELL me, "I can buy fewer frivolous things, I can go out to eat less... that's fine, I can give up a few things if you're gonna pay me to just stay home, that's fine by me!" And like, why would they lie? And it's SO many people who say it, that if you multiply it exponentially... yeah, we're in trouble if UBI ever becomes a standard thing over here.

Not everything that works Over There in other countries can or would ever work Over Here in this one. Americans are a unique breed. For better and worse. But they are "unique". And that's why so many "Just look at ______, they're doin' it!" type of situations simply don't apply over here. Most Americans are already extremely lazy and entitled, I don't think they need any more help getting there.

[ABrown]

Me attempting to comply with current local face mask requirements:

[Coola Yagami]

Since I have still lots of food I gotta eat to make room for new stuff.... I skipped shopping this weekend. So that means when I finally do go shopping next weekend I woulda been home 2 weeks straight.

[PizzaPower1985]

Of those who are still employed... are there more people losing or at risk of losing their jobs as time progresses? How many will that leave stranded in their homes?

[CyberCubed]

I am still employed and I won't be let go from my job. Still working from home since 4/15.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I am still employed and I won't be let go from my job. Still working from home since 4/15.

Given what you've said previously about your career, how much of that is work and how much of it is just being paid to do your own thing all day?

[Leo656]

Don't ask those questions, I wanna like this guy.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Given what you've said previously about your career, how much of that is work and how much of it is just being paid to do your own thing all day?

I do about 2ish hours of work sprinklered from 8am-4pm. Meaning not 2 hours consistently, but I do something for 10 minutes, stop, then half an hour later do something else for 10-20 minutes, etc.

But it was the same way when I was in the office too, so it's no difference. I am basically always browsing the internet posting messages like this one while I'm working.

I play videogames on my lunchbreak and watch shows on 1.5x speed on my computer while I'm online too.

I feel like I'm living the high life.

[Leo656]

And people wonder why the blue collar workers of America are so embittered and don't want to see anyone else do well.

[ssjup81]

I haven't been out too much. I'd gotten hired for a new job right when the pandemic happened...but it was at a childcare center. I have no idea what's going on with that. I'm technically furloughed...so no work. For a childcare center, you're an early childhood educator. There's no way you can get toddlers to social distance, let alone preschool-age. The only group you can probably cater to are the infants up to about 6 months...I wouldn't be surprised if more parents are going to keep their kids at home too.

Since I'm not working, then I don't have much of a reason to go out. I decided to work on my MA remotely...so no need to go out for that.

Aside from the store, I don't go to many places and if I do go out, I might take the dog out and go for a drive just to get out of the house, but I mostly do that at night.

Sometimes I have to take or pick up my father from his dialysis. Due to him, I try to limit my contact with others. He's already been hospitalized twice since this all started. He went in for a blood infection. which he got from doing dialysis, and double pneumonia. They discharged him, but he was still having breathing issues, so he went back and had to be hospitalized again. The pneumonia never cleared up fully and he shouldn't have been released. He's home and okay now, but he has to use oxygen all the time now so we have one of those machines in the house that converts the air into the oxygen he's breathing. He's also diabetic.

I'm overweight and diabetic, so I have to worry about that...but I'm more worried about my dad since he does have a respiratory issue and wouldn't want to accidentally bring something back that could infect him. I always wear a mask while out (not that it's an issue...got used of doing that while in Japan) and always have sanitizing wipes in my car. All the other steps we should be taking, was stuff I'd been doing for years anyway. Soap and hand sanitizer were two things I always kept on me anyway.

Oh as for those with COVID-19, my younger cousin got it a while back. She's a nurse at the VA hospital here...but it's badly run. They weren't even testing the employees and if they did, they'd lie about the diagnosis. They had to get our congressman and governor involved as well as the union. Was even on the local news here. They were blaming the staff if they became sick and trying to say that they contracted it elsewhere if they had themselves tested outside of their facilities (like my cousin did) and doing other shady stuff. They weren't even providing proper PPE for their staff and instead of having a COVID ward, like most places, they didn't, despite claiming they were when confronted, so people were working with patients that were infected without knowing...hence why so many of the staff members were getting sick. Luckily that was all taken care of and my cousin did recover and the hospital actually wanted her to return before her 2 week quarantine was even up. Her union rep told her to keep all e-mails sent to her to be used against them. She's back at work and stuff, but she said they're still doing shady stuff.

The only reason why she hasn't quit is because she's also a nursing student and the schedule there works well with her schooling schedule.

[PizzaPower1985]

Do you guys think that when this is over, be it before next year or 2022, do you guys think that not going out, becoming a homebody, will become a new cultural way of doing things? I mean obviously not everybody, most people would not be comfortable with that BUT what are the chances, you know, of like a couple million people becoming so used to being locked down that they just decide to live the way we are living now, forever (outside of work of course)? Is it even possible?