New CGI movie

[Leo656]

"I refuse to accept or acknowledge the fact that things I loved a long time ago are now old and irrelevant, because that means so am I. I'm not ready to accept that, therefore I will pretend those things I love ARE still popular and successful, in spite of all evidence, and that everything is exactly the same as it was Then, because it allows me to feel better about myself and continue to disregard the passing of time as well as the fact the larger world has changed. Right Here in my head, Everything Is Just Fine."
- Everyone, more or less. But nobody more vociferously than TMNT fans.

Seriously. Never in my life have I seen people fight so hard to declare their favorite thing is still relevant and that there's better days ahead, when in fact, Nah and Nah.

I guess it's not altogether strange. Most of the people on the Titanic refused to accept reality, too, until the water was up to their neck.

You can't have my life raft, my dog needs it.

[AquaParade]

Like I just said...

Spoiler:

It's really not about how popular the franchise is or isn't right now, so we should avoid getting the two subject confused

So I don't know if you are moving the goal post or just plain don't get it on this one. Not trying to be a dick, but no one in this thread is saying the franchises best days are ahead of it. Especially not me.

Unless you're just talking to a wall. In that case, um, carry on.

Now, you can do your doom and gloom bit all day, but it doesn't prove that 90% of the audience for tmnt 2003 and 2012 was made up of adults. That's still the craziest comment of the day

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Both 2K3 and 2012 were restively popular with kids and lasted longer than the average children’s television program. Then people grew out of them. It doesn’t mean anything, really. I’d say the property is just as capable of gearing at all ages, as any other comic property.

People grew out of FW show almost 40 years ago, yet, when someone mentions TMNT, it is the first thing people associate with this brand.
So, it is not the case of people just growing up and "forgetting" about the show. Besides, it wouldn't explain while some of the old shows still maintain loyal followings, like He-Man or, especially, Transformers.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Sumac

People grew out of FW show almost 40 years ago, yet, when someone mentions TMNT, it is the first thing people associate with this brand.
So, it is not the case of people just growing up and "forgetting" about the show. Besides, it wouldn't explain while some of the old shows still maintain loyal followings, like He-Man or, especially, Transformers.

That may be the first thing adults associate with TMNT. I'd agree.

That doesn't mean that the latter two incarnations weren't a success with children. Of course not on fred wolf levels, but that's not the point. Also, I don't think the kids who grew up with 2k3 or 2012 think of fred wolf at all. That's just us who have been around.

Not sure what you mean when you say "that wouldn't explain why other shows have loyal followings". Tmnt also has a loyal following just as much as the other shows you've mentioned. Maybe you can clear up your point there if I'm missing it.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

That may be the first thing people associate with TMNT. I'd agree.

That doesn't mean that the latter two incarnations weren't a success with children. Of course not on fred wolf levels, but that's not the point.

What is a measure of success in this case?
Were those show good enough to be maintained for a few years? Yes.

Did they make lasting impression, which penetrated and changed pop-culture and has become a superfad? Nope. Not even close.

I am not talking about quality of those shows: I love 2k3 and consider it to be the best TMNT series, when it comes to story and characters. But the fact is the fact: most people don't even know it this days, yet, they easily can list some things from FW show, even if they barely remember or even have never seen it themselves.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Sumac

What is a measure of success in this case?
Were those show good enough to be maintained for a few years? Yes.

Did they make lasting impression, which penetrated and changed pop-culture and has become a superfad? Nope. Not even close.

I am not talking about quality of those shows: I love 2k3 and consider it to be the best TMNT series, when it comes to story and characters. But the fact is the fact: most people don't even know it this days, yet, they easily can list some things from FW show, even if they barely remember or even have never seen it themselves.

Well you have to remember that my point was this: tmnt is capable of appealing to all ages.

Children moving on from a particular cartoon doesn't mean that the property is dead or no longer capable of appealing to children. Kids move on from cartoons. They grow up. It's what they do.

Not every cartoon is intended to capture the zeitgeist and be remembered for decades to come, like the fred wolf show did. We know this is rarely the case.
But that doesn't mean the franchise no longer appeals to kids. Tmnt has appealed to kids for several generations. And each incarnation has lived a healthy life - each longer than the average cartoon - up until "Rise..." which doesn't resemble the franchise whatsoever.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

It's really not about how popular the franchise is or isn't right now, so we should avoid getting the two subject confused

No, it is, it's entirely related, because you keep making some asinine claim that TMNT somehow renews itself with every generation and may do so again, when I and Actual Proven Facts are over here saying, "Yeah, nah, that's never happened even once with this brand." The TMNT "audience" in 2022 is the exact same individual people who were there in 1988, and almost nobody else.

Did a few people trickle in - and then back out - here and there every time a new movie or cartoon show comes out? A few, yeah. Did any of the under-10 crowd stick around in 2003? Eh, like five of 'em, maybe. 2012, same thing.

TMNT is not a renewable resource. Only ONE generation of fans has ever actually had any significant emotional investment in the property, and that's the 80s generation. You can argue otherwise all day long and scream "But EVERY new iteration of TMNT brings in new fans!" for as long as you care to, but you're wrong. Even if they come in for a few weeks, or months, or whatever, they do not STAY fans, therefore in truth those new iterations did NOT "create new fans". If they don't stick around, they don't count towards the tally. Buying the Black Album and listening to it twice because they liked "Enter: Sandman" does not make one a "Metallica Fan". That's not how things work.

I'm not saying literally zero young fans sat down to watch 4Kids or the 2012 show. I AM saying "None of them stayed invested in the brand for very long and haven't looked back" because that's A PROVEN FACT.

I am saying "Only the 1980s generation became fans and stayed fans, everyone else dropped it very quickly and never went back" because that, too, is a proven fact. Find your six or seven people to say "NUH-UH, I watched the Nick cartoon when I was 5 and I'm still here!" That doesn't disprove the larger point. F*cking Jesus.

Like you, "not trying to be a dick" but I go outside and exist in the "real world" way more than most people on this forum do. Do I see a decent number of people rocking TMNT shirts out there in the Really-Real World? Yeah, a few. Always old, fat, balding guys. Been that way for years upon years. Little kids wearing TMNT shirts? ANYONE under 30? Eh, maybe during Season 1 of a new cartoon, after that, nah, f*cking zero.

As for whether this forum's anecdotal evidence counts for anything, considering this has always been the place the "hardcore" fans come to to discuss TMNT, I think it can be taken safely as a microcosm of the larger world as relates to TMNT. Nobody outside of this forum actually "really" cares about TMNT at all; you go on FB or anywhere and it's just a bunch of people saying "Oh, yeah! Cowabunga dudes! Mickey and Ralph were my favorites!" Those people don't count. They watched a cartoon show a few times a long time ago and can't remember anything about it besides catchprases. That's 99% of the people OUTSIDE of this forum who self-identify as "TMNT Fans". They're not. They bought an action figure, so they think that counts. But it doesn't. As far as how TMNT exists and is perceived by the larger world, this place has always been a pretty good window. If twenty or thirty people here all say, "Yeah, I never see any kids or people under 30 talking about TMNT," you can multiply it exponentially and safely say "That's how the rest of the world sees it, too." It's always been that way. Again, you can CHOOSE to disbelieve, but you're simply choosing to willfully disregard Objective Reality and that simply isn't healthy.

Bottom Line: TMNT is NOT renewing itself or establishing new fans with every reboot. That is PROVEN false when every "new fan" that was created by the 2003 or 2012 cartoons drops the brand forever in less than two years and never, ever goes back to it. Those people aren't "new fans"; TMNT was a passing fancy for them, and that simply doesn't count. You're lying, and it's provable, so kindly stop it.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Like I just said...
[SPOILER]
Now, you can do your doom and gloom bit all day

Again, it's spelled "Observe & Report", and thanks for your permission, chief.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

it doesn't prove that 90% of the audience for tmnt 2003 and 2012 was made up of adults.

That's who the audience was, is, and remains. Go outside and talk to people, you learn a lot that way.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

90% of the audience for tmnt 2003 and 2012 was made up of adults. That's still the truest and most easily-verified comment of the day

Fixed it for ya.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Children moving on from a particular cartoon doesn't mean that the property is dead or no longer capable of appealing to children. Kids move on from cartoons. They grow up. It's what they do.

TMNT fans who were kids in 1988 didn't. They're still here. They still care.

They're the ONLY ones who have, and do. Everyone else quit the brand after five minutes, whether they got into it in 1996, 2003, or 2012. This is verifiable. 1988 kids never "grew out of it", but everyone else has. Very quickly. It's naive to think that will ever change.

And that's all I've been trying to say.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Tmnt has appealed to kids for several generations.

Not since 1993 or so, no, it hasn't. If they stop watching in a few months and then forget all about it, I don't think you can say it "appealed" to them. There's a line at some point between "A thing caught my eye for a minute" and "I actually care about this thing." It seems you don't think so. But yeah, there is a line. Thick one.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

And each incarnation has lived a healthy life - each longer than the average cartoon - up until "Rise..." which doesn't resemble the franchise whatsoever.

Because the same people who were watching the FW cartoon in 1988 keep coming back to try and keep every new iteration afloat, long after the so-called "new fans" abandon it.

Likewise, "Rise" failed because those same older fans puked on it. The kids were indifferent as they always are. I doubt any kids even knew that show was a thing.

The franchise lives and dies by the grace of the 1980s fans and no one else. That's it and that's all. You can say "Each new iteration brought its own huge chunk of fans and they matter just as much", but that's completely ludicrous. It simply isn't true.

1980s fans steer the ship and keep the boat afloat. When they die off, the brand is history. End of story.

Also: TMNT is at best the second-dumbest thing to ever even be popular on a widespread mainstream level, so why people even care if it sticks around is beyond me. It's stupid sh*t for nitwits, f*ck it, let it die. It's dumb. It was "not-dumb" a few times for five minutes, here or there, but most of it is trash. Who cares if it dies off? I used to care, I don't anymore. You shouldn't either, it's dumb. It's dumb to care so much about something so fundamentally insipid.

To be clear, I have ZERO emotional investment in the future of this franchise. I expect it to just get worse and worse until someone pulls the plug, but if something good comes along, fine, whatever, I still won't care. Me and TMNT are "over". Divorced. Done.

I'm not arguing this point with you because I want to be right. It's just that two things I can't stand are Willful Ignorance, and Liars. Everything you keep saying about how "every new version brings in lots of new fans" and "plenty of people outside of the 1988 fanbase care about TMNT" is 100% false, yet you keep insisting it's true. It's aggravating. Everyone knows better, yet you not only persist but double down, including dropping a few thinly-veiled insults and other smartass remarks along the way.

The more you persist in saying things that are easily disproven and claiming they're true, the more I'm gonna get annoyed about it. That's really all it is, at this point. I simply cannot abide liars, or people who can't handle Objective Reality. Refusal to acknowledge actual facts is a proven sign of mental illness.

[AquaParade]

Claiming that 90% of the audience for a children's cartoon were adults is not "actual proven facts". It's just...something you're saying.

I'm not saying literally zero young fans sat down to watch 4Kids or the 2012 show. I AM saying "None of them stayed invested in the brand for very long and haven't looked back" because that's A PROVEN FACT.

You didn't day zero. You said 10%, which is just as ridiculous.

That's a different topic then - whether or not they "stuck around" as fans. That would be a different goalpost. There is nothing for them to stick onto, first off. No one is expecting them to stick around past the material aimed at them. That's sort of the point.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Well you have to remember that my point was this: tmnt is capable of appealing to all ages.

I am not arguing with that. Batman, which is at its core is much darker franchise than TMNT, pulls this effortlessly.

The problem is that outside of FW and arguably first movie, nothing from the franchise managed to be remembered.

Continuing analogy with Batman - they are tones of various versions, yet a lot of them has their fans and I don't see a lot of fighting about which Batman is better - Adam West-like or Burton-like. It is truly a franchise, which offers a bit of everything for everyone. Something that TMNT can't realize still.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I am not arguing with that. Batman, which is at its core is much darker franchise than TMNT, pulls this effortlessly.

The problem is that outside of FW and arguably first movie, nothing from the franchise managed to be remembered.

Continuing analogy with Batman - they are tones of various versions, yet a lot of them has their fans and I don't see a lot of fighting about which Batman is better - Adam West-like or Burton-like. It is truly a franchise, which offers a bit of everything for everyone. Something that TMNT can't realize still.

Oh, I agree with this. Same page.

Except maybe for batman being darker at it's core. It has balanced that darkness much better, but I'm just acknowledging that tmnt started out pretty dark and shows hints of it in places still.

But I don't believe that tmnt failing to reach the heights it did in the 80's means it isn't successful with kids. That's a mighty high bar to hold anything to. Lightning in a bottle.
The proof is in the pudding - you don't last 6-7 seasons, twice after your glory days, and then hit #1 opening weekend several times, if you aren't still a success with that demographic. It wouldn't be sustainable otherwise.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Oh, I agree with this. Same page.

Except maybe for batman being darker at it's core. It has balanced that darkness much better, but I'm just acknowledging that tmnt started out pretty dark and shows hints of it in places still.

I mean, even if you account to edginess of original comic book, TMNT premise is still rather absurd, for the lack of better term.
While Batman is essentially modern adaptation of Robin Hood-like figure and its premise still much more realistic (outside of meta-nonsense, which some writers try to inject into Batman stories from time to time).

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Claiming that 90% of the audience for a children's cartoon were adults is not "actual proven facts". It's just...something you're saying.



You didn't day zero. You said 10%, which is just as ridiculous.

That's a different topic then - whether or not they "stuck around" as fans. That would be a different goalpost. There is nothing for them to stick onto, first off. No one is expecting them to stick around past the material aimed at them. That's sort of the point.

If I had the actual numbers in black and white in front of me, they'd absolutely be a lot closer to the ones I pulled out of my ass to prove a broad point than they would be to whatever imaginary number of "new fans" you think each new iteration created. Every single new iteration of TMNT has FAILED to create a large crop of "new fans". Every single one. Again, go outside sometimes, you learn a lot.

Stop taking everything so literally. Every single person here knows that nobody younger than 35 gives a f*ck about goddamn Ninja Turtles, and they also know that "nobody" in that statement is Figurative.

It's like you wake up sometimes and are like, "Y'know what I'm gonna do today? I'm gonna be a pedantic slapnuts on a message board for no reason. I'm gonna play 'gotcha' games with people even when I know damn well they're speaking figuratively, metaphorically, what have you. And I'm gonna keep insisting things that everyone with two working eyes can see aren't true actually are, no matter how ridiculous or easily-disproven those statements are."

It's weird. And it's never, ever endearing in the slightest.

But anyway, yeah, no, nobody under 30-something gives a sh*t about TMNT and they never will. Tough break, live with it, it's Reality.

Also, just to twist the knife, "Joker" was only okay.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

But I don't believe that tmnt failing to reach the heights it did in the 80's means it isn't successful with kids. That's a mighty high bar to hold anything to. Lightning in a bottle.

I'm beginning to see the disconnect here. You seem to be thinking I'm holding the 1980s TMNT's success as a benchmark for success in general, and saying each new version failed because none of then have hit THAT level of success.

That's not what I'm doing. I'm saying that they've all failed since then to make ANY impact whatsoever with a wider audience... outside of the Exact Same Individuals who came in with 1988.

There's a distinction between "The new versions fail because they can't reach 1988-levels" and saying "They fail because they can't attract and keep ANY significant number of new fans whatsoever."

I have not been saying the former, but I am saying the latter.

So I think I found the root of the disagreement, here. You seem to think I'm saying things that I actually am not.

I agree with you that it is absurd to think any new iteration would hit 1988 levels. That is completely impossible and will never happen.

But I am still correct in saying that by and large, they have NOT created a significant or measurable "new audience" for the property since the middle of the 1990s. It all speaks for itself.

[AquaParade]

Agree to disagree. I'm not going to piss my pants over it, man, lol.

I don't believe that the majority of viewers were adults when it comes to those shows. Kids liked those shows and supported them. They were a success on any chart other then the one that compares them to the lightning in a bottle that was Fred Wolf.

You can pull back now and say 90% of viewers being adults was hyperbole. Thank God. It was hyperbole.

But your point was still that the majority of viewers were adults. That's what you communicated. And it's ridiculous. The whole idea that tmnt doesn't appeal to kids is ridiculous. But hey at least it's entertaining.

I agree that the franchise has failed to keep older fans around, past the initial batch. That's my problem with the franchise. But it has never had trouble appealing to kids. Other than rise.

[Leo656]

Believe what you wish. You can think that a ton of kids were the ones buying the action figures for the 4Kids cartoon, or the Nick cartoon, and not their parents. If it sincerely makes you think the brand is doing great, then by all means, believe what you want to.

My whole family is Catholic. I'm used to people choosing to believe things that are patently absurd on their face. I get it. Sometimes people find lies comforting.

Not me, though. Only Truth for this guy.

I will say, just as a point of comparison but MOTU fans are nowhere near this delusional about this kinda thing. Ask any He-Man fan, "Who was buying the toys or watching the cartoons in 2003 during that reboot, or this past fall in 2021? Kids, or their parents?" And every single person except the most delusional will tell you openly, "No way, man, kids don't care about He-Man, they haven't since '87! It's always been the grown-ups keeping the brand alive, man, everyone knows that! It would've been nice if the kids cared, but they don't. Ah well."

Like, they accept that those reboots didn't hook the younger crowd. They don't like it, but they're not lying to themselves about it. "The same kids who were He-Man fans in 1982, are the Exact Same People who are He-Man fans right now. We've gained and kept, maybe, like five or six people since then. It is what it is."

That kind of awareness is nice. Seeing as how TMNT is very much in the same boat as MOTU in most respects - and actually, at present, doing way worse than that franchise is doing, even if just for the moment - I just wish more TMNT fans could likewise face reality with such grace. That's all.

[AquaParade]

No, see, it doesn’t make me think the brand is doing great. And until you comprehend that my point isn’t “the brand is doing great”, you’ll never get out of the circular argument with yourself, in which you continue to repeat that the brand is dead.

It feels like what you want right now is to chant to the moon that the tmnt franchise is dead, and maybe you need a jumping off point, or catalyst for that. I can see that your venting a lot on the topic and using it to scold tmnt fans who are living in denial, etc
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don’t care about all that. I’m not here to try to convince you that the franchise is thriving. I’m under no illusions.

The only thing I will keep pushing back on is the belief that 2K3 and 2012 were viewed by more adults than children. But we’ve hit a dead end there.

I think you’re right about He-Man. It’s not the same situation though. What He-Man cartoons were as successful as tmnt? What movies? What games? In the last 3 decades?
None of it is in the same league and it’s not a good comparison, just because it’s another property that was most famous in the late 80’s.

[Leo656]

The short answer to your question is, they get compared a lot because they were far and away the two most popular 80s franchises globally, despite the fact that TMNT stayed popular for longer and that other brands had more sustained success in America than MOTU managed to, for various reasons. But regardless of that, MOTU aired and sold in countries that never got stuff like G.I. Joe or Thundercats, for example. It *might* have actually been on TV in more countries than TMNT at one point but I'd have to do some serious digging for that.

So here's my usual Long Answer:

It's comparable because they were the two most popular brands of the era, even though Mattel set a course they'd continue to follow for decades by cutting the knees off their own brand through chronic mismanagement (which books Can and Have been written about so I won't rehash all of it here; suffice to say, MOTU could've had a longer peak run if Mattel weren't run by chimps).

Other cartoons and toy lines were popular in that era, and several ran longer than MOTU did, but ONLY TMNT had the same global penetration that MOTU did at its peak. Other popular brands like G.I. Joe, Transformers, Ghostbusters, etc., were not aired in anywhere near as many countries, nor their toys sold on as many shelves worldwide, as TMNT and MOTU were during that decade. MOTU had a shorter run than they all did - again, thanks to Mattel themselves screwing it up by flooding stores with toys people already had, a pattern they'd repeat in 2003 and 2021- and some of those properties probably had a higher peak ceiling in America, at one point, than MOTU did. But worldwide, taking ALL factors into account and not just how long this or that cartoon stayed on TV, TMNT and MOTU were easily the two largest 80s franchises, and that's one of many reasons why they've always been compared and always will be compared. They have more in common than not in the broader sense.

Up to, and including the fact that they've each had multiple reboots aimed at "creating a brand new audience" for the property, and that each attempt failed to do that.

Filmation MOTU was, for a good long while, the most popular syndicated cartoon show worldwide. The only show to come close to it - and eventually surpass it - was FW TMNT. So right there, we see why the two brands are peers. They stand far above their brethren simply by way of global penetration.

They both had a "sequel show" made by completely different people, with different values, which claimed to "continue the story" of the original but were actually mandated to aim for a brand new audience. MOTU went first in 1989 with "New Adventures of He-Man", which failed, and TMNT had its turn in 1996 with "Next Mutation", which failed even worse than "New Adventures of He-Man" did. In both cases, both new and old viewers said "Yeah, this sucks, I'm ignoring it."

They both had a hard reboot cartoon in 2003. Both shows tried to wipe away everything "silly" about the originals and present a more "mature" take. Both the 2003 MOTU and TMNT cartoons were a huge hit with people who loved the 1980s cartoons... not so much with anyone else. Yes, in each case SOME of the people watching the shows and buying the toys were kids... but that was NOT a large number in the case of either. In BOTH cases, it was predominantly the adults, the grown-up 80s kids, doing the bulk of the watching/buying/engaging.

They both presently have companies selling toys that look a lot like the ones we bought back in the 80s, but "modernized". And those toys are being bought in large numbers NOT by young kids, but again, by adults. The grown-up 80s fans.

They both have now had a couple cartoon shows apiece, all of which have proved rather divisive among the existing fans while not doing a great job of drawing in new people.

And so on and so forth. If you're trying to say, "TMNT is much bigger so it isn't comparable," I won't disagree that TMNT is a much bigger brand in the grand scheme of things and had a longer sustained run of success. That can't be disputed. What I AM saying is that in the grand scheme of things, they're basically operating from the same playbook and getting comparable results insofar as ever-diminishing returns. And that they're in the Exact Same Place insofar as, "Only the 80s kids still care" about EITHER of them.

Hopefully that clarifies my point. The two brands invite such comparisons because they have so much in common in the broad sense. And they've both failed to consistently draw a crowd, unless said crowd is mostly made up of old farts like me and everyone else here.

[Jephael]

You could compare TMNT with just about any fantasy property out there... Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, James Bond, Marvel, DC, Looney Tunes, Disney ect. and come up with comparisons in regards to reboots and popularity, but the bottom line is we're not the ones calling the shots. The studios that own these characters are. They could care less how we feel no matter how strong our opinions are.

[Leo656]

Hey, BOY oh boy, y'know what I just noticed that ALL of those things have in common as well?!

They all turned to sh*t after they hung around for too long.

Food for thought, eh?

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Jephael

You could compare TMNT with just about any fantasy property out there... Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, James Bond, Marvel, DC, Looney Tunes, Disney ect. and come up with comparisons in regards to reboots and popularity, but the bottom line is we're not the ones calling the shots. The studios that own these characters are. They could care less how we feel no matter how strong our opinions are.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Hey, BOY oh boy, y'know what I just noticed that ALL of those things have in common as well?!
They all turned to sh*t after they hung around for too long.
Food for thought, eh?

I have photo albums full of pictures I had taken at San Diego Comic Con on three separate occasions that would prove otherwise. These properties will always have die-hard fans that eat, sleep and breathe those characters! Granted many of them get a little carried away, but hey they're doing what makes them happy. Who are we to judge?