Should they have casted a hispanic or black April for the film?

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I don't understand why topics about race have people so sensitive on this forum. You can make the same topic on any other online forum and people wouldn't get all up in arms about this.

It's not necessarily discussing about topics of race, it's your approach CyberCubed.

Talking about the topics of race, doesn't make someone a racist. Someone can talk about the topics of rape and murder, and that doesn't make them a rapist or murderer.

As I said before, it's your approach CyberCubed. You insert negative racial tones (and outlandish generalizations of other social groups) into your threads/posts, so naturally people are going to get upset, especially since this society overprioritizes race as a form of personal identity and unfairly about character. In addition to that CyberCubed, you have a tendency to make oblivious (or at least seemingly oblivious), careless incendiary remarks.

It's interesting that at times you can be so perceptive about the character depth and complexity of TMNT characters of an imaginary world and among several reinterpretations, but when it comes to the complexity of real people, in the real world, there seems to be a disconnect where you find it "easier" to use stereotypes and generalizations. You're either very naive or you're one incredibly sly troll that hides your offensive viewpoints under the disguise of naivety, and thus find people's heated reactions entertaining.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Don't forget the fact that "people wouldn't go up in arms over race in other forums" is just plain ignorant.

*coughMsAmerica2014cough*

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by omnimorphic

Yeah... can't agree with you on that. People don't live in and around sewers without getting sick. There are thousands of diseases, and no, the sewers are not a safe dry place that with a little elbow grease make a good home. Real New York is Real, not a cartoon.
My point is still that the girl, to me is crazy, same as Casey Jones is crazy. Real people do not behave the way these two do, and if they did, they would be locked up, then sent for psych evaluations. They are not normal, just like Batman is not "Normal". These people have serious problems.


Well, i happen to think her origin is the most plausible for the world they set up. It's all allegorical, goofy, storytelling that is absurdest in the best sense of the word. I loved that he deconstructed his own story, and turned the character on its head. it takes guts to do that when you have a fan base that is surely going to turn on you. I'm sorry you didn't like it, but for me it's perfect.

Back to the crazy though...
So yeah, She did what? "she dove head-first into a bizarre world of mutants, aliens, robots, and ninjas without batting an eye-"

Yep. Perfectly sane healthy normal woman, holding down a stressful job working long hours trying to pay the bills, and suddenly... ninjas.

So sure, it's fantasy, but there is this whole plausibility factor that you just can't deny. it's just not plausible.

I take it you're not aware of the fact that some of NYC's homeless population does just that- living in storm drainage and run-off pipes? By "relatively safe and dry"(as in mostly dry save for normal water usage on the streets above), I was of course comparing it to the "waste" levels of said system. There is a difference. Heck there are even guided tours of some large cities' sewers, especially historically significant ones- and there is always Paris and the Catacombs under Norte Dame- now THAT'S a place you wouldn't want to spend much time in! (You know, cause it's full of dead people....) So while it may not be an entirely PLEASANT place to live (and honestly, there is no more disease and such in the average drainage sewer than in a typical urban lake), it's no more dangerous than living on the banks a river in most of the world's large cities. Either would be about the same level of cleanliness.


And I don't find April to be particularly "crazy", either- she is curious, determined, brave, (at least in the IDW, OT, and 2K3 versions- not sure about Mirage, 'cause I've not yet read it) and smart- all traits which tend to make a person better able to cope with stressful, dangerous, and difficult situations. What you term "crazy", I call resourceful and adaptable. She was able to roll with whatever came her way, and not only survive, but take it in stride as just part of life's (admittedly bizarre) hurdles. I'd call her an admirable person for being able to actually KEEP her sanity and lucidity after everything that came her way- regardless of incarnation. As for the OT, after meeting the turtles, she pretty much gave them an ultimatum, and DEMANDED to go along when they decided to investigate the situation with the mousers and the Foot, etc. Avery time they went out on a mission, she WENT ALONG OF HER OWN FREE WILL. No one asked her to, or forced her to, or even suggested she should. Most of the time, the turtles tried to dissuade her. But she was determined to get to the bottom of things, and get her news story. She is/was one of the quintessential dogged news-hounds of the mid-twentieth century, the kind who would do whatever it took to get their story. That persistence is part of he character in every version, too.

2K3 April was cut from the same mold, even if she didn't have the same job. As Baxter's assistant, she still had the same curiosity, determination, and guts. And the same need to find the truth. One of the things I've always liked about her character in any version is that she doesn't take no for an answer, and she doesn't stop just because something might be dangerous or difficult. She never took the easy road of staying out of things, and she even went so far as to learn to defend herself, by having Splinter teach her. How is any of that crazy? It sounds pretty sane to me, especially given the circumstances she continually found herself involved in. Seems she was a proactive gal in ANY incarnation, and one who took what was thrown her way in stride and accepted it.

I have to disagree that any of this describes a "shallow, simple character" with no depth, a "strange individual whose motivations are childish and simplistic". Yeah, in the OT, she was mainly motivated to get her story- that's called DOING HER JOB. She's a reporter- what do people THINK she's supposed to be doing? In the versions where she's Baxter's assistant or what-have-you, she digs into the seamy underbelly of the company to find out what her "suspicious" boss is doing behind everyone's backs (or under their noses, take your pick). Nick's April is simply caught in a bad situation where aliens are literally out to get her, and is trying her hardest to make the best of it. Nothing crazy, childish, OR shallow about that.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I take it you're not aware of the fact....

Wow. I think I touched a nerve with you.
But if you're so sure, feel free to come up to NY anytime, and I'll buy you lunch- if you sleep just one night in the sewer.

Maybe sewers are better maintained in Texas?

ANYWAY
I work with reporters, all day everyday. Hate to play that card, but, it's true.
Investigative journalism is dangerous, for sure, but it's more along the lines of the danger of being sued, which is the biggest concern.
There are also journalists who cover international news. Their life can be in danger, but they are NEVER reporting alone, or in a vacuum. There is always a security detail or an escort of some kind. They don't go traipsing around alone to get the "scoop". It's not 1949. They need to be able to corroborate a story in some way.

But putting aside reporter April, this argument went way off track, and clearly you care about the character much more than I do. And that's great, but it doesn't change my view.

I don't see her as any sort of hero. Ripely, in Alien, is a hero, even more so in the second film; Jessica Chastains character in Zero dark 30, incredible. The list is long...

But April is always on the side, spectating, and more to the point, the story could be told, and in many cases has been told, without her.

But fine, let's agree to disagree.

MY original point, was that switching the ethnicity does nothing to enhance her character, or detract from it, and what's more, it's no big WIN for racial equality in any sense, because every film of late has been comfortable placing minority actors in supporting roles that were previously played by white actors.

Again, if we want to talk about color blindness, we should be talking about leading roles.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by omnimorphic

Wow. I think I touched a nerve with you.
But if you're so sure, feel free to come up to NY anytime, and I'll buy you lunch- if you sleep just one night in the sewer.

Maybe sewers are better maintained in Texas?

ANYWAY
I work with reporters, all day everyday. Hate to play that card, but, it's true.
Investigative journalism is dangerous, for sure, but it's more along the lines of the danger of being sued, which is the biggest concern.
There are also journalists who cover international news. Their life can be in danger, but they are NEVER reporting alone, or in a vacuum. There is always a security detail or an escort of some kind. They don't go traipsing around alone to get the "scoop". It's not 1949. They need to be able to corroborate a story in some way.

But putting aside reporter April, this argument went way off track, and clearly you care about the character much more than I do. And that's great, but it doesn't change my view.

I don't see her as any sort of hero. Ripely, in Alien, is a hero, even more so in the second film; Jessica Chastains character in Zero dark 30, incredible. The list is long...

But April is always on the side, spectating, and more to the point, the story could be told, and in many cases has been told, without her.

But fine, let's agree to disagree.

MY original point, was that switching the ethnicity does nothing to enhance her character, or detract from it, and what's more, it's no big WIN for racial equality in any sense, because every film of late has been comfortable placing minority actors in supporting roles that were previously played by white actors.

Again, if we want to talk about color blindness, we should be talking about leading roles.

I'm still wondering how you'd expect a more realistic April to act? Or how to portray her in a way that makes her a rich and engaging character.

I can imagine how most people would act, but April wouldn't have much presence in the movie if she ran screaming in terror of the turtles (never to be seen again throughout the rest of the movie) or gets locked up in a padded room within the first ten minutes of her appearance.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I can imagine how most people would act, but April wouldn't have much presence in the movie if she ran screaming in terror of the turtles (never to be seen again throughout the rest of the movie) or gets locked up in a padded room within the first ten minutes of her appearance.

You've just illustrated my point. Exactly. Most people wouldn't "befriend" the Turtles, they'd run screaming. And if she did, we have a better starting point for her character to grow and change.

If you look at a series like Breaking bad, it's about change, a journey that goes from point A to point B. He doesn't just start selling meth to make money, because it's not believable. We had to see how he got there. It's a similarly implausible story, but by the end, you've bought in.

When we were kids, you buy the April bit because, as kids, we don't have any point of reference. We've never lived alone in a city, with real responsibilities. Everyday is play, an adventure just waiting to be had. Adult life is hard, stressful, and complicated - not for everyone, but I think for most. if you miss work without an excuse, you'll be fired. Apartments in New York start at 2500 a month for a tiny dump, and cost of living is crazy.
Running off to follow a story or have an adventure, not really in the cards, unless you are loaded, which I never got the impression April was.

So yeah, in so many ways, her character is less believable, than the existence of a mutant turtle.

Now a mutant Ninja turtle on the other hand...

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by omnimorphic

MY original point, was that switching the ethnicity does nothing to enhance her character, or detract from it, and what's more, it's no big WIN for racial equality in any sense, because every film of late has been comfortable placing minority actors in supporting roles that were previously played by white actors.

Again, if we want to talk about color blindness, we should be talking about leading roles.

Exactly. True 'color blindness' really comes from when it doesn't matter who plays a character of a certain race. Even I kind of find the idea of race a bit dumb because the definition of a race tends to shift all over the place and to suit certain political environments.

'Irish' used to be considered a 'race.'

'Hispanic' was a term created in the 1960s during the Nixon Administration. Under forensic and anthropological science, many Hispanics are actually considered Caucasian/White. There is no such thing as a 'Hispanic race.' They're Whites. (Although there are Black Hispanics, but they are forensically considered Black then, not 'Hispanic.')

Listing someone's race down to to the umpteenth degree is sort of a remnant of the 'one drop rule' that used to have wide usage when it came to who was considered black. It's now popular to do this with other race groups, but now because it adds a bit of exotic 'flavor' instead of just listing yourself as just boring black/white.

That's what I know of the stuff on race. Pretty much I kind of find it funny that people get a hernia over race, since race is little more like a breed. Take Chihuahuas and German Shepherds. They are the same species, yet look dramatically different. They might have different health issues, different personalities, but they are still both dogs. And they get listed as being part this and part that, but it changes little of what they are at their core.

So when someone asks that April be this or that, is it something that will bring something to the character, or will she really be a bauble to show off, to appease some old tinge of guilt, after years of portraying her as a 'politically incorrect' race?

If she happens to be black or white or asian, don't make it about her being a particular race. Make it about her being April.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Exactly. True 'color blindness' really comes from when it doesn't matter who plays a character of a certain race. Even I kind of find the idea of race a bit dumb because the definition of a race tends to shift all over the place and to suit certain political environments.

'Irish' used to be considered a 'race.'

'Hispanic' was a term created in the 1960s during the Nixon Administration. Under forensic and anthropological science, many Hispanics are actually considered Caucasian/White. There is no such thing as a 'Hispanic race.' They're Whites. (Although there are Black Hispanics, but they are forensically considered Black then, not 'Hispanic.')

Listing someone's race down to to the umpteenth degree is sort of a remnant of the 'one drop rule' that used to have wide usage when it came to who was considered black. It's now popular to do this with other race groups, but now because it adds a bit of exotic 'flavor' instead of just listing yourself as just boring black/white.

That's what I know of the stuff on race. Pretty much I kind of find it funny that people get a hernia over race, since race is little more like a breed. Take Chihuahuas and German Shepherds. They are the same species, yet look dramatically different. They might have different health issues, different personalities, but they are still both dogs. And they get listed as being part this and part that, but it changes little of what they are at their core.

So when someone asks that April be this or that, is it something that will bring something to the character, or will she really be a bauble to show off, to appease some old tinge of guilt, after years of portraying her as a 'politically incorrect' race?

If she happens to be black or white or asian, don't make it about her being a particular race. Make it about her being April.

Whatever that is anyway.... aside from news reporter April that was driven by her job.... all the other versions of April, Mirage included, are, at their core, little more than 'that woman that knows the Turtles so they have a human friend'.

I wonder... what would have happened if they met Casey first and he was their first human friend and they never bothered to introduce April?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I always think of April being of Irish American ancestors.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I wonder... what would have happened if they met Casey first and he was their first human friend and they never bothered to introduce April?

I don't know, that would be interesting though. It might give a different dynamic, considering that Casey likes to brawl and is a guy.

Although I did think of a theory about why they might have cast Shredder as white instead of Japanese: If there is going to be a large audience for this film in China, I think they aren't interested in upsetting the Chinese by setting an actual Japanese guy in there. I think I heard a similar thing about Bay with stuff for Transformers 4, as it might be related to the negative feelings the Chinese have towards the Japanese.

But that is just a guess.

[jestermon]

Lets make the turtles rats and Splinter a turtle but still call it the same name, it's really rediculous when characters get replaced in stories for fun.

They should just make up new stories if they don't want to stick to things in a given franchise.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by jestermon

Lets make the turtles rats and Splinter a turtle but still call it the same name, it's really rediculous when characters get replaced in stories for fun.

Change name.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Rodents
Teenage Mutant Ninja Rodents
Teenage Mutant Ninja Rodents
Heroes in a rathole
Rodent power!

In the 2003 show, when the turtles are teleported from Earth to D'Hoonnib, they end up in the sewers. On that planet, there is a turtle, guiding four rats in the sewers. One of the funniest scenes in the entire 2003 show.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Exactly. True 'color blindness' really comes from when it doesn't matter who plays a character of a certain race. Even I kind of find the idea of race a bit dumb because the definition of a race tends to shift all over the place and to suit certain political environments.

If she happens to be black or white or asian, don't make it about her being a particular race. Make it about her being April.

^^This^^

Finally. I think this thread can now be closed.

[sgtfbomb]

Originally Posted by jestermon

Lets make the turtles rats and Splinter a turtle but still call it the same name, it's really ridiculous when characters get replaced in stories for fun.

They should just make up new stories if they don't want to stick to things in a given franchise.

That's not really the same. April's ethnicity really hold little weight for who she is. Not saying she's a worthless character or anything. I'm just saying that it's not quite the same as changing Shredder's ethnicity, as his heritage is very much a part of his character, being a master in the art of ninjutsu from Japan.

Changing the species is an even bigger extreme, lightyears from changing one's ethnicity.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by sgtfbomb

That's not really the same. April's ethnicity really hold little weight for who she is. Not saying she's a worthless character or anything. I'm just saying that it's not quite the same as changing Shredder's ethnicity, as his heritage is very much a part of his character, being a master in the art of ninjutsu from Japan.

Changing the species is an even bigger extreme, lightyears from changing one's ethnicity.

I agree. The Turtles are Ninjas in the first place because their master is Japanese and mastered ninjitsu there. And their whole reason to fight evil is due to their master's enemy who was also Japanese in Japan. At this point they might even say Splinter was white before he became a rat.

In fact... there's a different angle. Maybe in this version Yoshi and Sachs are brothers, and Yoshi is actually Japanese, and Sachs is pissed because since he's adopted, he feels he was never as loved by his family as compared to their natural born son.

[Commenter 42]

Fichtner might pull this off. Drive Angry was a horrendous mess, but he was really, really freaky in it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by chrisdude

Ehhhh... Superman's not white, either. He looks like a "white" human, but it's not like he's Caucasian. That's like saying Klingons are black, or that black humans are "basically Klingon."

That's true. Superman is vastly more different to a white guy than a black guy is to a white guy, when you think about it.