Anything that you don't like about well-liked versions of the TMNT?

[TheLabRat]

2003 Casey and 2003 Leo's character development was wasted in S4. Casey allow Hun to live is just dumb. I prefer Leo to maintain his some of aggressive behavior, and the other three turtles and even Splinter agree with his ideas to some extent, rather than completely denying Leo's changes.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by TheLabRat

Casey allow Hun to live is just dumb.

Standard Saturday morning cartoon cheese. Which is fine. But that kind of stuff is what drives me nuts when people act like 4kids was some perfect 1:1 Mirage adaption, or some ballsy R-rated cartoon.

[Anarchistguy]

- The 2003 TMNT following the code of Bushido
- 2003 Casey being a complete and utter idiot
- Dumbing down the 2003 series for Fast Forward and BTTS.
- Karai being portrayed as The Shredder's daughter instead of his hierarchical superior in recent media.
- 2012 Don's crush on April was just plain damn creepy.
- 2012 Mikey's stupidity.

Originally Posted by The Great Saiyaman

- They started speaking in full sentences straight away after they mutated. In the mirage comics, Splinter said that it took them some time before they started speaking, and then only one word at a time.

You're mixing up your incarnations

The 2003 Turtles did not instantly master the english language. In "Attack of the Mousers" we see that their growth was not instant. You're thinking of the 1987 TMNT.

[CyberCubed]

The human acolytes are my only problem with that season, they barely had any characterisation and ultimately proved pointless. The dumb guy (Adam I think his name was?), was the only one with any type of personality...and it was just that he was kinda stupid.

I also really loved how Bishop, Karai, Hun etc. all joined forces with the Turtles for the grand finale. It really felt like the entire show could have ended right there (and honestly probably would of if 4kids/Playmates didn't try to keep the show going another 2 seasons). I enjoyed Shredder/Foot Mystics storming on Karai's HQ's as well.

Although I do wonder if that season was 26 episodes, they would have been able to flesh things out more and also put more "breather" eps in the middle like that justice force/nano ep we got. That's why I mentioned before there should have been a Rat King episode inbetween there back in NYC before the final arc started to give him another episode separate from everything else. Or other eps to tie up loose ends with previous characters before the end.

[TylerD]

Originally Posted by Anarchistguy

- The 2003 TMNT following the code of Bushido
- 2003 Casey being a complete and utter idiot
- Dumbing down the 2003 series for Fast Forward and BTTS.
- Karai being portrayed as The Shredder's daughter instead of his hierarchical superior in recent media.
- 2012 Don's crush on April was just plain damn creepy.
- 2012 Mikey's stupidity.



You're mixing up your incarnations

The 2003 Turtles did not instantly master the english language. In "Attack of the Mousers" we see that their growth was not instant. You're thinking of the 1987 TMNT.

The 2012 crush Don having on April. I 100 percent agree. I know they did it for comic value, and him having heart eyes for her and trying to make it this cute thing. I don't think to younger viewers, they would think it's creepy. But overall I agree. I thought it was super strange to add to the show

[TheLabRat]

Originally Posted by Anarchistguy

- The 2003 TMNT following the code of Bushido

The code of Bushido in TMNT is just some dumb stereotype. The samurai weren't actually averse to use deception on the battlefield, not to mention they like guns.

This is why I like 2012 Splinter tells 2012 Leo "We're ninjas. Screw fighting fair, just win."

[Zog The Magnificent]

Alright, we've got some pretty good answers, so I'll offer up my defenses or agreements (because I did agree with some of it).

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

The Turtles should not posess any magic abilities or have any superpowers. All their skills should come from practicing Japanese martial arts and ninjutsu. If you want a TMNT character transforming into a dragon, why not let the Turtles team up with the Warrior Dragon, as in the Archieverse?

This one I disagree with, the reason being that ninjitsu, as it is portrayed in most fiction that features it, is basically intermixed with magic anyway, either subtle things that aren't strictly possible to straight up magic moves that are just being called ninjitsu. Adding in the spiritual side of things, such as chi or the astral plane, and I think a case can be made that it's not too far off base. Magic has always been a big part of TMNT, so this doesn't feel too off for me, especially as a one time deal.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Oh boy. If I ever do a 4kids rewatch, I’ll try to write a coherent review, but for now I’ll just ramble lol.

For starters, I’ll say I always hated it because there was all this incredible build up, with the season 4 finale ending on that cliffhanger… only for it to be taken away from us for years. I remember I was DYING to see this season, and I was so happy when we finally got it, but it just didn’t deliver. Maybe I was expecting to much.

I don't think this one is totally fair, though it's understandable. I can't totally relate, however, because I watched this show as a young child, fell off, and by the time I came back the whole thing was out, so I didn't have to wait.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

As for the season itself, let’s start with the absolute nonsense:

- Too many characters. Several episodes have Mike, Don and Raph with like 2 lines or less.

- No balls. Speaking of too many characters, there is NO reason the acolytes were resurrected. The only part of the season I enjoyed at all was the brief period they were “dead”. There is absolutely zero stakes if the Tribunal can just resurrect anyone at will.

I actually agree with this one. The acolytes were completely pointless, added nothing, and ultimately just ate up screen time during the first part of the season. Them coming back was also clearly an a** pull. I could accept the Tribunal being alive, but the acolytes was a step to far.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- No way in hell should Scottie Ray have voiced Demon Shredder. How does it make any sense that a Japanese man who lived centuries ago had the exact same voice as an alien from across the galaxy? They should have got a Japanese VA.

I disagree. Shredder as a disguise was already ostensibly a Japanese man, and he didn't sound Japanese. Ultimately none of the asian characters in this series have asian voice actors, and Scottie Ray's performance as Shredder is quite good, I think we can all agree. I think for the sake of continuity (the film kind, not the story kind) and because Scottie Ray's performance rocks, that his voice should have been kept. If anything, it probably would have felt weirder the other way.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- Speaking of Shredder. The whole nonsense “Karai is connected to demon Shredder because she wears the armor!” thing was corny crap. It’s just steel lol.

I'll have to correct this one. The connection didn't come about because she wore the armor, it was because she took the name of the Shredder, and that name is connected to the original demon. Anyone who takes the mantle would experience the same thing. It's a spiritual thing, in much the same way that Frodo claiming the One Ring allows Sauron to suddenly become aware of him, in a way that merely possessing the ring did not allow.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- Forced Leo melodrama. I liked the concept of “traumatized Leo” in season 4 but the execution was lacking and I quickly found him to be insufferable up until the Ancient One story. The whole not being worthy of a weapon thing was stupid and contrived.

I'll agree with the second part, but not the first. I think the storyline struck a good balance in building up and ramping up his aggressive behavior, and the characters gradually noticing it I think was handled well. No disagreement about the second part. Just another example of the Acolytes eating up screen time they didn't need. You would think that it would be a bit about how he didn't need a weapon because he had all that he needed, but they never really went there. He gets the sword anyway, then gives it back with no fanfare. They never really figured out what they wanted to say with that.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- The Hamato Yoshi connection. It stunk that the big epic conclusion was the ghost of Yoshi killing demon Shredder. They had no connection whatsoever. Yoshi and Splinter hated the Tribunal because they refused to help kill Ch’rell, but that’s it. Also the plot hole of Splinter knowing about the whole Utrom thing before Season 1.

I think it worked thematically to have Hamato Yoshi be the one to end it all, at least as far as it connected to the Turtles' storyline, but you've got me on the Splinter thing. I can no-prize my way around it, but there's not really a good explantion that fully "fits." It does stick out.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

- This is nitpicky, but the turtles vocally summoning their mystic powers got obnoxious.

- It ran too long. This story could have easily been like 6-7 episodes. Many of the episodes feel samey and just blend together.

I don't think it's fully fair to hold the dialogue against this season in particular, as the overly expositional dialouge was a weakness of the whole show. But I do agree, it was quite cheesy.

As for the second point, I disagree, but that one is more down to a personal preference, so there's not really anything I could refute or affirm otherwise.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The human acolytes are my only problem with that season, they barely had any characterisation and ultimately proved pointless. The dumb guy (Adam I think his name was?), was the only one with any type of personality...and it was just that he was kinda stupid.

I also really loved how Bishop, Karai, Hun etc. all joined forces with the Turtles for the grand finale. It really felt like the entire show could have ended right there (and honestly probably would of if 4kids/Playmates didn't try to keep the show going another 2 seasons). I enjoyed Shredder/Foot Mystics storming on Karai's HQ's as well.

Although I do wonder if that season was 26 episodes, they would have been able to flesh things out more and also put more "breather" eps in the middle like that justice force/nano ep we got. That's why I mentioned before there should have been a Rat King episode inbetween there back in NYC before the final arc started to give him another episode separate from everything else. Or other eps to tie up loose ends with previous characters before the end.

Very much agree with the acolytes. And as far as I'm concerned, the show DID end there. No need to talk about the rest.

Ultimately, I think the season had flaws, but that those flaws were things that are found in the rest of the show, and not this season in particular. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it WAS mine. I think it worked quite well as the dramatic climax of everything that had been built up, and I was overall satisfied with it. (Ignoring the fact that there are TWO seasons after this, and that the 7th one is the worst of the bunch).

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Zog

I don't think this one is totally fair, though it's understandable. I can't totally relate, however, because I watched this show as a young child, fell off, and by the time I came back the whole thing was out, so I didn't have to wait.

Yeah it’s not exactly fair, and I don’t think it ultimately affected how much I dislike it, but it’s worth noting. The whole debacle is also why a lot of people never gave FF a fair shake. I’m glad I stuck it out, because there’s some good stuff there.

I disagree. Shredder as a disguise was already ostensibly a Japanese man, and he didn't sound Japanese. Ultimately none of the asian characters in this series have asian voice actors, and Scottie Ray's performance as Shredder is quite good, I think we can all agree. I think for the sake of continuity (the film kind, not the story kind) and because Scottie Ray's performance rocks, that his voice should have been kept. If anything, it probably would have felt weirder the other way.

I guess I’m asking too much from a 4kids production here, but a believable enough Japanese accent from a new VA would have gone a long way with me.

The fact that they looked alike was also dumb and made very little sense. It’s more forgivable in that you can assume that maybe once Ch’rell gained control of the mystics, they showed him a vision of the original Saki. But no one from the 1300’s would know or care what a legend from over a thousand years ago looked like. The title of “Shredder” and the armor (as well as his near invincibility) would be enough to accomplish what he was going for.

The voice is still unforgivable. What are the odds that this evil alien sounds like squeaky Scottie Ray and this guy from the year 300 sounds like regular Scottie Ray? Too silly.

I'll have to correct this one. The connection didn't come about because she wore the armor, it was because she took the name of the Shredder, and that name is connected to the original demon. Anyone who takes the mantle would experience the same thing. It's a spiritual thing, in much the same way that Frodo claiming the One Ring allows Sauron to suddenly become aware of him, in a way that merely possessing the ring did not allow.

It’s still hokey. What’s to stop Casey from putting two cheese graters over his forearms and a spiky helmet on his head and declaring himself the new Shredder? He can then siphon mystic power away from an ancient demon or whatever?

I don't think it's fully fair to hold the dialogue against this season in particular, as the overly expositional dialouge was a weakness of the whole show. But I do agree, it was quite cheesy.

True, they always had their dumb battle cries. It just felt incessant this season. Especially the way all 4 of them would say theirs individually rather than them collectively yelling “it’s ninja time” or whatever.

Ultimately, I think the season had flaws, but that those flaws were things that are found in the rest of the show, and not this season in particular. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it WAS mine. I think it worked quite well as the dramatic climax of everything that had been built up, and I was overall satisfied with it. (Ignoring the fact that there are TWO seasons after this, and that the 7th one is the worst of the bunch).

Hmm… I would honestly rather watch BttS than Ninja Tribunal honestly.

[CyberCubed]

BTTS has some really fun episodes, like "The Engagement Ring," and "Hacking Stockman." While the whole Cyberspace plot wore thin after literally the third ep, I enjoyed a lot of the eps individually. The only bad eps were the Serling/Turtle Tot ep and the Green Lantern parody ep.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

The fact that they looked alike was also dumb and made very little sense. It’s more forgivable in that you can assume that maybe once Ch’rell gained control of the mystics, they showed him a vision of the original Saki. But no one from the 1300’s would know or care what a legend from over a thousand years ago looked like. The title of “Shredder” and the armor (as well as his near invincibility) would be enough to accomplish what he was going for.

The reason for that is that by taking the title of "Shredder," he gained a subconscious connection to the original demon, and subconsiously modeled his disguise after the original Oroku Saki.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

It’s still hokey. What’s to stop Casey from putting two cheese graters over his forearms and a spiky helmet on his head and declaring himself the new Shredder? He can then siphon mystic power away from an ancient demon or whatever?

The same thing that's stopping more than one person from claiming the One Ring at one time: there's only one. Only one peson can hold the mantle, and that person was currently Karai. Plus, as we saw from Shredder, claiming the name clearly affects your soul. I don't think people would WANT to claim it (if they were of a noble sort).

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Hmm… I would honestly rather watch BttS than Ninja Tribunal honestly.

That might be the hottest take of all.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

The reason for that is that by taking the title of "Shredder," he gained a subconscious connection to the original demon, and subconsiously modeled his disguise after the original Oroku Saki.

It’s definitely fun to imagine the journey Ch’rell must have gone on to make it in a strange world and eventually end up becoming what he did. But I never got the vibe that there was a “subconscious connection”. It is definitely a pretty good no-prize.

But the mystics treated Ch’rell as a disgraceful imposter.

The same thing that's stopping more than one person from claiming the One Ring at one time: there's only one. Only one peson can hold the mantle, and that person was currently Karai. Plus, as we saw from Shredder, claiming the name clearly affects your soul. I don't think people would WANT to claim it (if they were of a noble sort).

Hmm, I still don’t buy it. Again, pretty good no-prize for explaining Karai’s irrational behavior in season 4, but I always thought she was just mad about losing her father.

That might be the hottest take of all.

lol, I just noticed I said “honestly” twice. So you know I meant it!

[ToTheNines]

A couple of notes that I think would have made this season hit a little harder:

- The whole jerk around with Leo and Feraji’s dumbass sword that went nowhere should have ended with Leo ultimately wielding it in the final battle and him beheading Shredder with it. F*** Yoshi, his beef was with Ch’rell and he was fully avenged after Exodus. His arc in this show should have ended with that (plus A Tale of Yoshi).

I know they already had done their own take on #21, but it was immediately undercut by Shredder walking it off in the same episode, and ultimately left a bad taste in my mouth after it created the plot hole of all the Guardians just accepting that as a win. I think revisiting that classic moment with real stakes would have been worth it, and simultaneously made something of the whole “is Leo worthy of this sword?” thing.

- Return to status quo be damned, a better ending would have been to have all the acolytes and the Tribunal stay dead and have the 4 turtles become the new Tribunal. Much more interesting ending.

- I don’t care what anyone says: Rise did a way better job of a Demon Shredder/Mystic turtles story. Making the Hamato bloodline the ones who protected the world from Shredder made it more personal and emotionally impactful when they all defeated him together.

You have to sit through a lot of… stuff. But I’d hold the 12 best episodes of Rise high above 4kids season 5 ANY day.

[TylerD]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

It’s definitely fun to imagine the journey Ch’rell must have gone on to make it in a strange world and eventually end up becoming what he did. But I never got the vibe that there was a “subconscious connection”. It is definitely a pretty good no-prize.

But the mystics treated Ch’rell as a disgraceful imposter.




Hmm, I still don’t buy it. Again, pretty good no-prize for explaining Karai’s irrational behavior in season 4, but I always thought she was just mad about losing her father.



lol, I just noticed I said “honestly” twice. So you know I meant it!

I would love to see a movie with a Ch'rell background to it. I'm sure they would do Krang before that, but he was always one of my fave characters.

[neatoman]

A movie seems a little far-fetched but maybe a comic book? On a side-note, it should be noted that he has a somewhat different backstory in a video game, where instead of adopting the Shredder identity on earth, it was already his conqueror title in space.

[TheLabRat]

IDW Splinter is a terrible and selfish father and teacher in some case.
- His "pacifism teaching" did not help his sons.
- He choose take over Foot Clan, which actually went against his teachings and principles. That's why his son is disappointed in him.
- He even appears to care more about Saki and tries to redeem him, even sacrifice himself.

[TylerD]

Originally Posted by neatoman

A movie seems a little far-fetched but maybe a comic book? On a side-note, it should be noted that he has a somewhat different backstory in a video game, where instead of adopting the Shredder identity on earth, it was already his conqueror title in space.

I never did play the video game so unfamiliar with that story, but yes a movie might be far fetched

A comic storyline would be sweet. Bebop and Rocksteady for their stand alone series

[Anarchistguy]

Originally Posted by TheLabRat

The code of Bushido in TMNT is just some dumb stereotype. The samurai weren't actually averse to use deception on the battlefield, not to mention they like guns.

This is why I like 2012 Splinter tells 2012 Leo "We're ninjas. Screw fighting fair, just win."

Exactly. The 2012 TMNT are the closest incarnation to actual ninja.

In regards to the topic, I forgot one:

The Turtles being friends instead of brothers in the 1987 series.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Anarchistguy

Exactly. The 2012 TMNT are the closest incarnation to actual ninja.

Naruto run and all.