TMNT: Saturday Morning Adventures #4. Preview and discussion

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by neatoman

... Well, I kind of can't, the whole premise of the argument is that an uninteresting comic can't be worse than the cartoon on the basis that the cartoon sucked in the first place. I guess I didn't need to be sarcastic about it but I can't say the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad without saying the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad.

And thus I can say that you never get your Mirage adaptation.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Sumac

And thus I can say that you never get your Mirage adaptation.

You can... You'd be wrong because every version of TMNT is by definition an derivative of Mirage, including the Fred Wolf cartoon, which means it has already happened and will continue to happen for as long as people make new TMNT material... But if you want to say silly things, you can.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by neatoman

You can... You'd be wrong because every version of TMNT is by definition an derivative of Mirage, including the Fred Wolf cartoon, which means it has already happened and will continue to happen for as long as people make new TMNT material... But if you want to say silly things, you can.

Goalpost moving, eh?
Not a good look.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Goalpost moving, eh?
Not a good look.

Well, I didn't even say anything about Mirage in the first place here, I just said the Fred Wolf cartoon sucks and you responded with something about not getting a Mirage adaptation. Which didn't really have anything to do with my original statement, my subsequent mention of Mirage was in response to a re-iteration on the statement about Mirage, which didn't have anything about my second statement which was about how it wasn't possible to say the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad without stating the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad. I'm not so sure it's a good look on your part to accuse others of moving the goal post when you deliberately try to derail the conversation from the start.

If you can't actually defend the Fred Wolf cartoon without claiming that it's unnecessary because it's an old show (which doesn't shield it from criticism and never will), claim that it is irrelevant to the conversion (which it isn't, STA is clearly intended to be a pseudo-continuation of it, comparisons are very much relevant) or bring up something about Mirage (which only becomes relevant once someone brings it up), then don't even bother.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Well, I didn't even say anything about Mirage in the first place here, I just said the Fred Wolf cartoon sucks and you responded with something about not getting a Mirage adaptation. Which didn't really have anything to do with my original statement, my subsequent mention of Mirage was in response to a re-iteration on the statement about Mirage, which didn't have anything about my second statement which was about how it wasn't possible to say the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad without stating the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad. I'm not so sure it's a good look on your part to accuse others of moving the goal post when you deliberately try to derail the conversation from the start.

If you can't actually defend the Fred Wolf cartoon without claiming that it's unnecessary because it's an old show (which doesn't shield it from criticism and never will), claim that it is irrelevant to the conversion (which it isn't, STA is clearly intended to be a pseudo-continuation of it, comparisons are very much relevant) or bring up something about Mirage (which only becomes relevant once someone brings it up), then don't even bother.

I don't need to defend anything - FW cartoon remembered by pretty much everyone, while most other things TMNT are mostly forgotten.
Drink water - it removes salt.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Sumac

FW cartoon remembered by pretty much everyone, while most other things TMNT are mostly forgotten.

Nope. Anyone born this side of the millennium is going to be way more familiar with the 2012 or Rise cartoons. Heck, even the official TMNT reddit is basically made up of 2k3 fanboys.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I don't need to defend anything - FW cartoon remembered by pretty much everyone, while most other things TMNT are mostly forgotten.
Drink water - it removes salt.

Originally Posted by hypered1

Nope. Anyone born this side of the millennium is going to be way more familiar with the 2012 or Rise cartoons. Heck, even the official TMNT reddit is basically made up of 2k3 fanboys.

Yes, I'm kind of tired of needing to explain this, but yes. The whole "everyone remembers it" is a bullshit argument on so many levels.

1. As hypered1 pointed out, the people who "remember" the show tend to have been born in the 80's, very rarely is it "remembered" by anyone born before or after 80's. It really just applies to people who grew up with it when it was airing, it really doesn't have much sway with anyone else and people are generally more likely to be fond of whatever version they happened to grow up with.
2. Even in that group, it's still a minority who remember the show accurately. Most people I talk to about it in real life don't tend to be aware that it was on for as long as it was, they can't even recall the plots of a few episodes. One guy I met was even convinced Bebop and Rocksteady started out as animals. It's more accurate to say people remember that it was a fad or that they have a hazy idea of what the show was like, not that it's in anyway immortalised for what it really was.
3. And even if we do pretend that it really is remembered and enjoyed by everyone, that nobody cares about any TMNT material released before or since, so what? There are plenty of just awful movies and television shows out there that enjoy a large fanbase, they are not immune to criticism and neither is the Fred Wolf show. The flaws of the show are still there, no matter how many people "love" the show.

It's an appeal to popularity fallacy, one made worse by the popularity being a mere shadow cast from former spotlight, rather than the result of active fanbase.

[Cowabung-Gal]

If I need a good laugh, I watch the Fred Wolf cartoon.

If I feel like torturing myself with bad voice acting, I watch the 2003 series.

I get why a lot of fans feel like the Fred Wolf cartoon is too childish and silly for their taste, but I find issues with their beloved 2k3 show, too and especially Rise.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

If I need a good laugh, I watch the Fred Wolf cartoon.

If I feel like torturing myself with bad voice acting, I watch the 2003 series.

I get why a lot of fans feel like the Fred Wolf cartoon is too childish and silly for their taste, but I find issues with their beloved 2k3 show, too and especially Rise.

The problem with the Fred Wolf cartoon isn't that childish and silly, the problem is just that it's badly made. Seriously, that's the main problem, it's just really low quality. The plots rarely make sense, the animation is is often way too choppy, the pacing tends to be off, the sound mixing is atrocious and it contains animation errors so bad I don't even understand how they were made in the first place. It's just a rushed production from day one until it got canned, it's not even a case of it "not holding up", it was never good in the first place.

I know it's probably easier to deflect criticism if you pretend it's about the tone, because otherwise you end up with really weird arguments like "Everything has flaws, therefore it's OK that this show randomly introduces plot elements without proper set-up and is animated at four frames per second so often" or "Hey, it was the 80's and most shows were like that, who cares if it was possible to make something better if everyone were sloppy at the time?", but at least try to admit this show just was never up to snuff in the first place, OK? It would help a lot.

And... I really hate that people claim the Fred Wolf cartoon is funny, I really do. Maybe if you're like five years old it's literally one of the first ten TV shows you've ever watched it is, but no adult ought to be amused by the so-called humor of the Fred Wolf cartoon. It's either way too predictable or it just doesn't make sense in the first place, it's also extremely toothless. I dismiss it's alleged value as a comedy.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by neatoman

And... I really hate that people claim the Fred Wolf cartoon is funny, I really do. Maybe if you're like five years old it's literally one of the first ten TV shows you've ever watched it is, but no adult ought to be amused by the so-called humor of the Fred Wolf cartoon. It's either way too predictable or it just doesn't make sense in the first place, it's also extremely toothless. I dismiss it's alleged value as a comedy.

It’s funnier than Jimmy Kimmel Live and the new Velma series, and those are aimed toward “adults”. If that’s adult comedy, then no thanks.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

It’s funnier than Jimmy Kimmel Live and the Velma series, and those are aimed toward “adults”. If that’s adult entertainment, then no thanks.

What about Golden Age Simpsons, Futurama or South Park? There's plenty of quality comedies for adults, you shouldn't scrape the bottom of the barrel to prop up some shoddy cartoon that really don't deserve to be propped up in the first place.

And if someone's going to claim the Fred Wolf show's humor is like that because it's for children and/or old, then I can easily point to Looney Tunes, child friendly and older than the Fred Wolf cartoon but still way funnier.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by neatoman

What about Golden Age Simpsons, Futurama or South Park? There's plenty of quality comedies for adults, you shouldn't scrape the bottom of the barrel to prop up some shoddy cartoon that really don't deserve to be propped up in the first place.

And if someone's going to claim the Fred Wolf show's humor is like that because it's for children and/or old, then I can easily point to Looney Tunes, child friendly and older than the Fred Wolf cartoon but still way funnier.

South Park is funny (sometimes). But modern adult comedy shows in general suck, and it’s the same for a lot of modern kids shows.

I’m not saying the Fred Wolf show is perfect; I’m just saying that it’s funnier than most modern adult comedies. And you seem pretty hung up on the past yourself since you’re listing Golden Age Simpsons as quality comedy as well as Futurama which ended like a decade ago. There’s a reason people are rewatching old shows instead of watching the new ones.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

There’s a reason people are rewatching old shows instead of watching the new ones.

That would be nostalgia, member-berries and rose-tinted glasses. Although I do agree regarding newer 'comedy' programs - that Velma series has taken a nose dive deeper than the Marianas Trench mostly because it comes across as a self-insert semi-biography for Kaling and totally dumps on the sauce material.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Well, I didn't even say anything about Mirage in the first place here, I just said the Fred Wolf cartoon sucks and you responded with something about not getting a Mirage adaptation. Which didn't really have anything to do with my original statement, my subsequent mention of Mirage was in response to a re-iteration on the statement about Mirage, which didn't have anything about my second statement which was about how it wasn't possible to say the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad without stating the Fred Wolf cartoon is bad. I'm not so sure it's a good look on your part to accuse others of moving the goal post when you deliberately try to derail the conversation from the start.

If you can't actually defend the Fred Wolf cartoon without claiming that it's unnecessary because it's an old show (which doesn't shield it from criticism and never will), claim that it is irrelevant to the conversion (which it isn't, STA is clearly intended to be a pseudo-continuation of it, comparisons are very much relevant) or bring up something about Mirage (which only becomes relevant once someone brings it up), then don't even bother.

You're good...very good at standing your ground.

Originally Posted by Sumac

I don't need to defend anything - FW cartoon remembered by pretty much everyone, while most other things TMNT are mostly forgotten.

What about the 90s films?

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

I get why a lot of fans feel like the Fred Wolf cartoon is too childish and silly for their taste, but I find issues with their beloved 2k3 show, too and especially Rise.

Nick, if anything, has more issues than the others.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Nope. Anyone born this side of the millennium is going to be way more familiar with the 2012 or Rise cartoons. Heck, even the official TMNT reddit is basically made up of 2k3 fanboys.

See I agree with you here 100%. But the real question about this observation is "where are they?" Are those fans on Reddit? Are they spending money on TMNT stuff? Have they become life long fans from the material that they recognize, or is it just that they "recognize TMNT" the same way that I "recognize Power Rangers"?

And so basically what I'm saying is that what good is it if people born this side of the millennium recognize TMNT '12 or Rise when that recognition has clearly translated into nothing? Those fans aren't supporting the thousands of dollars of NECA releases - aging 40's to 50 year old fans are doing that.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by IMJ

See I agree with you here 100%. But the real question about this observation is "where are they?" Are those fans on Reddit? Are they spending money on TMNT stuff? Have they become life long fans from the material that they recognize, or is it just that they "recognize TMNT" the same way that I "recognize Power Rangers"?

And so basically what I'm saying is that what good is it if people born this side of the millennium recognize TMNT '12 or Rise when that recognition has clearly translated into nothing? Those fans aren't supporting the thousands of dollars of NECA releases - aging 40's to 50 year old fans are doing that.

I see plenty of fans for 2012 and particularly Rise in a couple of the Discord servers that I'm in and there's others that are dedicated to most iterations at this point.
Regarding the NECA releases and similar that goes back to my comment regarding nostalgia - same for MMPR toys being the highest selling Power Rangers merch - yes the older fans are going to be buying that stuff but they're also the ones with the finances to do so; a full grown adult has far more spending money than a kid with their pocket change.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Nope. Anyone born this side of the millennium is going to be way more familiar with the 2012 or Rise cartoons. Heck, even the official TMNT reddit is basically made up of 2k3 fanboys.

And how many of those people will clamor for appearance of those versions of TMNT in crossovers, video games and the like? Will they shell money for essentially upgrades of classic toys from the 80s? Are they the one who are primary audience of the stuff like Cowabunga Collection or Shredders' Revenge - a first good TMNT video game in years?

That's the thing with TMNT: it has a lot of incarnations, but all of them pass and go, sans FW and the first movie somewhat. Everything else just flows away, like water in the drain during rain. I don't understand why and I am not highly appreciative of it, but it is what it is.

So, even if kids grew on modern TMNT version, I doubt they will remember as fondly as people remember FW series or gonna buy reissue or upgrade of classic toys from "their" era of the franchise.

Originally Posted by neatoman

1. As hypered1 pointed out, the people who "remember" the show tend to have been born in the 80's, very rarely is it "remembered" by anyone born before or after 80's. It really just applies to people who grew up with it when it was airing, it really doesn't have much sway with anyone else and people are generally more likely to be fond of whatever version they happened to grow up with.

1. Sorry, mate, I don't buy it. FW pandering is the whole microcosm in itself: you have everything FW existing in parallel with other TMNT products, covering the rest of the franchise, yet, somehow FW popularity almost never wanes. Somehow I doubt it is only 80s former kids supporting series. But even, if its a case, it means there are more people who give a damn about FW TMNT, than TMNT as a whole or some other incarnations of it.
   
   

   Originally Posted by neatoman

   Even in that group, it's still a minority who remember the show accurately. Most people I talk to about it in real life don't tend to be aware that it was on for as long as it was, they can't even recall the plots of a few episodes. One guy I met was even convinced Bebop and Rocksteady started out as animals. It's more accurate to say people remember that it was a fad or that they have a hazy idea of what the show was like, not that it's in anyway immortalised for what it really was.

   Oh, the horror! People can't recall one of the almost 200 episodes of the show, which aired for 10 years and stopped 25 years ago!!
   Mate, your salt is flowing.
   
   I can't recall most individual episodes of most of the shows I watched even few years ago, yet, it doesn't mean I like them "just, because, I've watched them as a kid" or some other nonsense.
   Try better next time!
   
   

   Originally Posted by neatoman

   And even if we do pretend that it really is remembered and enjoyed by everyone, that nobody cares about any TMNT material released before or since, so what? There are plenty of just awful movies and television shows out there that enjoy a large fanbase, they are not immune to criticism and neither is the Fred Wolf show. The flaws of the show are still there, no matter how many people "love" the show.

Your reaction goes beyond mere "criticism" and right into territory of goofy venomous angry snide as if FW series pissed into your corn flakes.

Originally Posted by neatoman

It's an appeal to popularity fallacy, one made worse by the popularity being a mere shadow cast from former spotlight, rather than the result of active fanbase.

Very dubious argument, considering that at the moment it looks that even shadow of its popularity from the 80s eclipses any other part of the fanbase as a whole.

Originally Posted by neatoman

The problem with the Fred Wolf cartoon isn't that childish and silly, the problem is just that it's badly made. Seriously, that's the main problem, it's just really low quality. The plots rarely make sense, the animation is is often way too choppy, the pacing tends to be off, the sound mixing is atrocious and it contains animation errors so bad I don't even understand how they were made in the first place. It's just a rushed production from day one until it got canned, it's not even a case of it "not holding up", it was never good in the first place.

Mere "criticism" my ass. LOL.
Its like FW series had killed your fish, poisoned your cat, and slipped **** under your pillow.

On simple question: if it was never good in the first place, why it is so fondly remembered considering not only it had an army of clones, but dozens of rival shows, yet, TMNT is one of the only remembered and revered to day? Not Cowboys of Moo Mesa, not Street Sharks, not 10th rip-off of Transformers mixed with G.I. Joe and Super Sentai, but TMNT?

Maybe, because, show was not as bad as you pointlessly trying to convince yourself and others? Yes, there were ****** animated episodes, but most of them were on par with other shows and some were just plain gorgeous (everything animated by Toei animation, basically).

Stories were pretty your standard Saturday Morning Cartoon fluff, so I am not really sure where this venomous hatred comes from?

And you are missing few components, namely amazing music and amazing voice cast. The magic was not only in its animation and zany plots, but in the amazing chemistry between actors and the way they delivered their lines. And clever back and forth quips (for a cartoon show of the 80s made to promote toys that is).

Of course, since it doesn't fit your hateful picture you don't mention it, but it is a fact.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I know it's probably easier to deflect criticism if you pretend it's about the tone, because otherwise you end up with really weird arguments like "Everything has flaws, therefore it's OK that this show randomly introduces plot elements without proper set-up and is animated at four frames per second so often" or "Hey, it was the 80's and most shows were like that, who cares if it was possible to make something better if everyone were sloppy at the time?", but at least try to admit this show just was never up to snuff in the first place, OK? It would help a lot.

Funny way to basically state that all your criticism is just made up ********.
I accept your failure...with a grace befitting a winner.

Originally Posted by neatoman

And... I really hate that people claim the Fred Wolf cartoon is funny, I really do. Maybe if you're like five years old it's literally one of the first ten TV shows you've ever watched it is, but no adult ought to be amused by the so-called humor of the Fred Wolf cartoon. It's either way too predictable or it just doesn't make sense in the first place, it's also extremely toothless. I dismiss it's alleged value as a comedy.

Shake crust from your pants, dude and grub some pizza. You really need some tubular vacation and gnarly video games in your life.
You sound like an old petty salty smarmy uncool and totally not-RAD bookworm, who can't accept simple joys of life. Lighten' up, dude. And once again, if FW show was so bad, how come it is more remembered than almost anything else from that era?

Originally Posted by neatoman

What about Golden Age Simpsons, Futurama or South Park? There's plenty of quality comedies for adults, you shouldn't scrape the bottom of the barrel to prop up some shoddy cartoon that really don't deserve to be propped up in the first place.

And if someone's going to claim the Fred Wolf show's humor is like that because it's for children and/or old, then I can easily point to Looney Tunes, child friendly and older than the Fred Wolf cartoon but still way funnier.

Are you seriously comparing FW TMNT to Simpsons and SOUTH PARK of all things?! Like shows made for completely different audiences with completely different goals in mind?
Are you a troll or just crazy?

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

What about the 90s films?

Remembered, maybe not so much, but remembered and appreciated, maybe even more so, after horrible Bay-abominations.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

I’m not saying the Fred Wolf show is perfect; I’m just saying that it’s funnier than most modern adult comedies.

If the Fred Wolf show was funny in the first place, I might agree with you but the problem is that both a kids' show from over 30 years that isn't funny and a show for adults now that isn't funny, aren't funny. Something that isn't funny, isn't funnier than something that isn't funny.

Here's a simple equation:
0+0 = 0-0 = 0

Add bad jokes to something that isn't funny and it's still not funny. Remove bad jokes from something that isn't funny and it remains not funny.

Fred Wolf's attempts at humor aren't offensive or annoying, which I'll grant you might make it less painful to watch compared to many modern comedies, but they're still not funny

Originally Posted by Sumac

And how many of those people will clamor for appearance of those versions of TMNT in crossovers, video games and the like? Will they shell money for essentially upgrades of classic toys from the 80s? Are they the one who are primary audience of the stuff like Cowabunga Collection or Shredders' Revenge - a first good TMNT video game in years?

That's the thing with TMNT: it has a lot of incarnations, but all of them pass and go, sans FW and the first movie somewhat. Everything else just flows away, like water in the drain during rain. I don't understand why and I am not highly appreciative of it, but it is what it is.

So, even if kids grew on modern TMNT version, I doubt they will remember as fondly as people remember FW series or gonna buy reissue or upgrade of classic toys from "their" era of the franchise.

I hate to break this to you but Steam Charts hardly shows anyone playing Shredder's Revenge, even less for Cowabunga Collection. It had decent numbers at the start but it quickly dwindled. To say the game is popular is hardly accurate.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Sorry, mate, I don't buy it. FW pandering is the whole microcosm in itself: you have everything FW existing in parallel with other TMNT products, covering the rest of the franchise, yet, somehow FW popularity almost never wanes. Somehow I doubt it is only 80s former kids supporting series. But even, if its a case, it means there are more people who give a damn about FW TMNT, than TMNT as a whole or some other incarnations of it.

Is that why people keep forgetting this comic even exist? You don't really provide any evidence here that the FW is still popular. I'm at best seeing a quick burst in interest that quickly fades.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Oh, the horror! People can't recall one of the almost 200 episodes of the show, which aired for 10 years and stopped 25 years ago!!
Mate, your salt is flowing.

I can't recall most individual episodes of most of the shows I watched even few years ago, yet, it doesn't mean I like them "just, because, I've watched them as a kid" or some other nonsense.
Try better next time!

If something really does have an impact on you, then you should be able to at least recall what the basic plot was. And you don't think it's weird that even though the show has almost 200 episodes and was watched by millions, very few people can actually recall a single episode? You don't think it's weird that not even this or that moment of the show is talked about if the show really is popular? It's not even remotely weird that this alleged staple of pop culture don't seem to have left nearly as big of an impact on the people who watched it as it logically ought to have?

Originally Posted by Sumac

Your reaction goes beyond mere "criticism" and right into territory of goofy venomous angry snide as if FW series pissed into your corn flakes.
...
Mere "criticism" my ass. LOL.
Its like FW series had killed your fish, poisoned your cat, and slipped **** under your pillow.

It's not even my opinion that the show has choppy animation, obvious production errors and contradictions in the writing. Those are just facts about the show and they deserve to be pointed out. The fact that I don't find the show funny, that's arguably just an opinion but it's still fair criticism.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Very dubious argument, considering that at the moment it looks that even shadow of its popularity from the 80s eclipses any other part of the fanbase as a whole.

Again, Shredder's Revenge and this comic receiving high attention at the start and then quickly dwindling into irrelevance is not a sign of genuine sustained popularity, at best is evidence that you can effectively entertain adults in a way similar to jangling keys in front an infant. Quick and reliable but not permanent.

Originally Posted by Sumac

On simple question: if it was never good in the first place, why it is so fondly remembered considering not only it had an army of clones, but dozens of rival shows, yet, TMNT is one of the only remembered and revered to day? Not Cowboys of Moo Mesa, not Street Sharks, not 10th rip-off of Transformers mixed with G.I. Joe and Super Sentai, but TMNT?

Because you were kids and you didn't have high standards, coupled with how those other shows were probably on at time as something more popular, meaning kids just didn't have time to watch something else, or how the toys just didn't sell well enough because parents only have so much income to spend. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that Fred Wolf had to keep pumping out TMNT episodes because it was their only successful show, while Disney and DiC could more comfortably let those shows go and Ruby Spears was dying at the anyway, which might why they weren't renewed enough times to get syndication deals. That syndication deal in turn would also make the show more widely distributed, meaning a lot more kids just got exposed to it regardless of what channels they got. But it could be a lot of things really, doesn't have to be related to quality.

As for quality, if you are trying to state that the FW show was of higher quality than Street Sharks or Moo Mesa... No. I'm sorry but no, it is not of higher quality. None of these shows are good mind you, it's just that one was more popular than the others but that is not a real indicator of quality.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Maybe, because, show was not as bad as you pointlessly trying to convince yourself and others? Yes, there were ****** animated episodes, but most of them were on par with other shows and some were just plain gorgeous (everything animated by Toei animation, basically).

Stories were pretty your standard Saturday Morning Cartoon fluff, so I am not really sure where this venomous hatred comes from?

Being on par with other shows at the time is a fairly meaningless defense of this show. Those other shows didn't look good, the quality control was just shamelessly low at the time. On average, it seems like the animation of many of those shows, the FW show included, was between 4FPS to 8FPS and that just never looked good in any era. A handful of genuinely well animated episodes does not excuse the fact that the majority of the episodes aren't even decently animated. The writing was also of very low quality at the time, the same basic criticism applies there to, except it's more about failures to form a coherent plot.

Originally Posted by Sumac

And you are missing few components, namely amazing music and amazing voice cast. The magic was not only in its animation and zany plots, but in the amazing chemistry between actors and the way they delivered their lines. And clever back and forth quips (for a cartoon show of the 80s made to promote toys that is).

Of course, since it doesn't fit your hateful picture you don't mention it, but it is a fact.

I'm not exactly a music expert and I'm not going to comment on the voice actor quality. But I've already established that I don't like the humor of the show, so I'm more than comfortable saying that the quips aren't really all that clever.

The problem here though is that we are still talking a show with plot and animation, that's kind of the meat and bones of the show is. Meaning that no matter what place on top of the show, if the writing and animation are bad, then the show is bad... Period. What does it matter if the soundtrack and acting are good if the core of show just doesn't work?

Originally Posted by Sumac

Are you seriously comparing FW TMNT to Simpsons and SOUTH PARK of all things?! Like shows made for completely different audiences with completely different goals in mind?
Are you a troll or just crazy?

I also used Looney Tunes for comparison in case the Simpsons and South Park seemed out of place. But mostly the point is that Jimmy Kimmel and Velma were used as examples of comedy for adults and somehow that made the Fred Wolf cartoon preferable, so I simply pointed out that good comedy for adults exist. But it's ultimately Looney Tunes that is being used as direct comparison to FW, not Simpsons and South Park.

[Coola Yagami]

Geez.... what bug crawled up everybody's butt all of a sudden? ****ing chill.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Here's a simple equation:
0+0 = 0-0 = 0

Sums all your arguments nicely.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I hate to break this to you but Steam Charts hardly shows anyone playing Shredder's Revenge, even less for Cowabunga Collection. It had decent numbers at the start but it quickly dwindled. To say the game is popular is hardly accurate.

I hate to break this to you, but do you know that both games were released on more platforms than PC? Do you know that platformers traditionally more popular on consoles, rather than PCs?

Originally Posted by neatoman

Is that why people keep forgetting this comic even exist? You don't really provide any evidence here that the FW is still popular. I'm at best seeing a quick burst in interest that quickly fades.

Apparently this "quick burst" has been lasting for the last two years...? I am not sure how time flows in your world, but "two years" is not a quick burst by any estimation. If anything, I see that FW TMNT only becoming more popular, especially, with other incarnations being not particularly known or outright garbage.

Originally Posted by neatoman

If something really does have an impact on you, then you should be able to at least recall what the basic plot was. And you don't think it's weird that even though the show has almost 200 episodes and was watched by millions, very few people can actually recall a single episode? You don't think it's weird that not even this or that moment of the show is talked about if the show really is popular? It's not even remotely weird that this alleged staple of pop culture don't seem to have left nearly as big of an impact on the people who watched it as it logically ought to have?

Oh no, people can't point out every single episode from the series they've watched who knows when!! Obviously, popularity of this series is a fake, those people are not real fans and bla-bla-bla other nonsense just to make it look like something popular was not, and you are smarter than everyone else, because, you don't like it.
Predictable.

I bet most people can't tell you about most episodes of Transformers or Star Trek, but apparently they didn't make a major bump in pop-culture, right?
Gee...its almost you are making up **** as you go along!

Originally Posted by neatoman

It's not even my opinion that the show has choppy animation, obvious production errors and contradictions in the writing. Those are just facts about the show and they deserve to be pointed out. The fact that I don't find the show funny, that's arguably just an opinion but it's still fair criticism.

OK, there are mistakes no-none denies it. What's next?
Also, I was talking about venomous and hilarious seething hatred of everything about this cartoon, not only animation.
I hope you are a better football player than goalpost mover.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Again, Shredder's Revenge and this comic receiving high attention at the start and then quickly dwindling into irrelevance is not a sign of genuine sustained popularity, at best is evidence that you can effectively entertain adults in a way similar to jangling keys in front an infant. Quick and reliable but not permanent.

How do you check their relevancy?
You, admittedly don't even know how popular Shredder's Revenge to begin with and given that company behind it aims to make patches, I'd say it is popular ENOUGH to get at least this attention.
But, of course, Neatoman knows better from his spiritual telepathy and whatnot, how popular game is, despite what developers had to say.

And about comic book: numbers, care to provide them? The fact they've been made at all is already a sign that FW is much more popular than your pwecious Mirage stuff, sans Last Ronin, which is an exception from the rule.

So far you are reacting at FW stuff like a dog on a leash, who just is being taunted by a delicious sausage. Savvy?

Originally Posted by neatoman

Because you were kids and you didn't have high standards, coupled with how those other shows were probably on at time as something more popular, meaning kids just didn't have time to watch something else, or how the toys just didn't sell well enough because parents only have so much income to spend. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that Fred Wolf had to keep pumping out TMNT episodes because it was their only successful show, while Disney and DiC could more comfortably let those shows go and Ruby Spears was dying at the anyway, which might why they weren't renewed enough times to get syndication deals. That syndication deal in turn would also make the show more widely distributed, meaning a lot more kids just got exposed to it regardless of what channels they got. But it could be a lot of things really, doesn't have to be related to quality.

Sorry, dude, but you are full of ****.
You are desperate to find anything to put FW down, like a vegetarian trying to find lettuce in the meat factory...and you are failing. Your arguments are complete crap and pulled out of your ass, because, you have nothing better to offer, except for disjointed combination of theories, without any prove.

Let me educate you, why you are wrong and maybe you will take something useful from it, like using good arguments to prove your points and not bizarre conspiracies:

Kids might not have high standards, but they sure can understand when the show is good and when show is crap. With abundance of shows in the 80s it was easier than ever for kids to find something for their liking. Like they were dozen different shows, including ones imported from Japan, competing for attention on the market throughout all of the 80s and later Disney joined the fray.

Point being there were no shortage of shows and some of them had more interesting concepts and better general premises than TMNT, yet kids flocked to FW Turtles. Now, whine all you want about lack of quality, but with dozens shows on the market wouldn't watch some ****** crap. They would've get to something different. But TMNT was able to hold attention for what? Almost 6 years, give or take. And apparently according to your dumb hot take, those kids didn't grow up and new kids, who joined TMNTmania later were equally as dumb. And none of the competitors throughout those 6-7 years were able to shatter TMNT power, even more bizarre TMNT rip-offs of 90s.

Amount of episodes doesn't mean ****, dude. If show was a failure no-one would've watched them, but there was demand for more. And, no schedules and other stuff, has nothing to do with due to aforementioned reasons.

Obvious conclusion of the normal person: FW was a damn fine show for its time, ahead of its competitors in certain areas, like fun characters and witty writing.

As for you: continue to seethe in your hatred.
You are lacking arguments and wit to make them work.
Try to make a decent argument, like "TMNT was popular, because, people were under influence of Krangoizoids". This sounds much more convincing than crap you've tried to feed me. LOL.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Being on par with other shows at the time is a fairly meaningless defense of this show.

Actually it does, since if all shows were bad, kids won't have reason to stick exclusively to afew of them.
You have lost your own argument by your own effort. Congratulations!!

Originally Posted by neatoman

The writing was also of very low quality at the time, the same basic criticism applies there to, except it's more about failures to form a coherent plot.

This nonsense has been disproven above.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I'm not exactly a music expert and I'm not going to comment on the voice actor quality. But I've already established that I don't like the humor of the show, so I'm more than comfortable saying that the quips aren't really all that clever.

Not liking something and considering it to be objectively bad are two different things.
Someone who brags about his "mature" tastes, shoulve have understood that.
And, I given that FW TMNT mostly remembered for voice acting and jokes, well, you are in minority. And you've been in minority for the last 30+ years. Guess, its hard, but this happens, LOL.

Originally Posted by neatoman

The problem here though is that we are still talking a show with plot and animation, that's kind of the meat and bones of the show is. Meaning that no matter what place on top of the show, if the writing and animation are bad, then the show is bad... Period. What does it matter if the soundtrack and acting are good if the core of show just doesn't work?

But you are mistaken on both accounts. Animation was passable and writing was exactly which attracted people to that show, which means you are mistaken.

A-ha!! We are finally uncovered your problem!!
I am talking to someone who doesn't understand or appreciate acting. Simple as that.

You are genuinly unable to figure out, how acting works and how a good perfomance can save disastrous story and directorship. Because, of it, you are obviously can not figure out why dialogues in FW TMNT work, since you obviously just don't see acting as a component of them. You see them as a plain text and this is the core of the problem. You can't understand neither intention nor emotion nor interaction. Which obviously leads to conclusion, that you can't understand how writing works at all!!

It is not to say you don't understand it on a mechanical level, it is just there is more to the writing than a story or dialogues. Perfomance and character nuances, all things, which FW TMNT exceled at, matter probably the most, if not more, than a good story. Because, of it you simply can't understand what is going on. Its like asking someone with no understanding of music to describe it. They'll see the notes, but not hear perfomance, hearing only meaningless noise.