"Superman & Lois" TV Series on CW

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Sadly, if it tanks, all that happens is the WB suits proclaim "See? Nobody cares about Superman!" yet again and they put anything to do with him back on the shelf. Although I predict it's almost definitely going to get at least three seasons..

Yeah, pretty dead on. Though come to think of it... this show is kind of a lose-lose situation, isn't it? It does well, then Cuckman and Kids becomes a bit more cemented as the new "norm" for Superman. It does poorly, then yeah... what you said.

[Jester]

Part of me wonders if Perry White is out and THAT combined with Clark Supermaning lead to him being fired. I could see a new editor doing so as a power play.

...sadly I could also see the new EIC being a lady...

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Yeah, pretty dead on. Though come to think of it... this show is kind of a lose-lose situation, isn't it? It does well, then Cuckman and Kids becomes a bit more cemented as the new "norm" for Superman. It does poorly, then yeah... what you said.

I know it's been done in the comics recently but I'm of mixed feelings on Superman having kids to begin with. I'm not a huge fan of "Superman" being a legacy role that gets passed around. I don't know. My affection for the character is such that to me, ONLY Clark Kent is Superman. He only ever gets written to have kids, either in or out of canon, so they can one day usurp the role from him, and while that may be practical in the long run, it's not a story I'm interested in, personally.

Same reason I never got into Batman Beyond. I'm sure it's just fine, the little bit I've seen is alright, but I don't care about Terry. I like Bruce Wayne. That's the character I want to see in the role. It's an interesting story but it's not what appeals to my tastes. I don't want "New and Different", I want more of what I like to begin with.

Originally Posted by Jester

Part of me wonders if Perry White is out and THAT combined with Clark Supermaning lead to him being fired. I could see a new editor doing so as a power play.

...sadly I could also see the new EIC being a lady...

Not a bad point. Very likely, in all honesty. Although Perry's fired Clark before, in-canon. It's not without precedent. It just smells fishy in this case given what we know of the CW and what they often choose to promote, and why.

"Lois the Career Woman and Clark the sad-sack stay-at-home Dad (when he's not saving the world)" sounds right up their alley. Again, it's not necessarily the story idea that's suspect, but their motivations and, ultimately, execution of the idea.

We'll see. I might watch the first episode out of loyalty, but I did that when he first appeared on Supergirl and it was like, "Nope!" And it's the same network, same actor, same everything, so... yeah, not much hope.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Same reason I never got into Batman Beyond. I'm sure it's just fine, the little bit I've seen is alright, but I don't care about Terry. I like Bruce Wayne. That's the character I want to see in the role. It's an interesting story but it's not what appeals to my tastes. I don't want "New and Different", I want more of what I like to begin with.

I love Batman Beyond, but I really don't like it having the final say on Bruce Wayne in the DCAU as a bitter lonely old man who can't let the mission go. There's also loads more wrong with the DCAU's later years besides that,but that's the main one that sticks in my craw.

A nice little amalgamation of the future from Tom King's run with Batman Beyond would do me just fine

[Leo656]

"Bruce dies on the job, Dick takes over as Batman to honor him" is the only Bat-future I personally care for. Nothing else really makes sense for any of the characters involved. There's like decades of stories which can be seen as building to and foreshadowing that. There's a logic and a symmetry to it.

It was kinda neat to see a version of that briefly as the status quo ten years ago, but circumstances kept me from fully enjoying it. Especially my loathing of Damien. Dick as Batman and Tim Drake as Robin? That's something I wouldn't even mind becoming permanent. Dick and Damien? Ehhhhh. It had its moments but it never really won me over. I really liked watching Dick grow into the role and everything that came with that, but having Damien involved ruined a lot of it for me. Even Dick with no Robin at all would have suited me better.

I'm not a big fan of "Grumpy Old Bruce" either, myself, but mostly because I kinda never imagined him living that long. I don't see him ever being able to "retire" - Obsessives can't simply flip a switch and "turn it off", and his sense of responsibility is simply too great. He'd spend his whole life blaming himself for every bad thing he "allowed" to happen through his inaction if he ever retired, and that's just not consistent with his established personality and character. Superman, same thing. For some characters the super-hero gig is just a job, but not for them. They couldn't ever just turn it off, I feel.

So I personally feel the only "happy ending" Bruce Wayne would ever get, is that he set Dick up to take his place. He got to raise Dick the way Thomas never got to raise him, and ultimately helped Dick become a much more well-adjusted human being than himself. That's the "happy ending".

Having anyone else take his place just makes Dick feel inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. That's why whenever a Terry or Damien comes along, and they're presented as The Rightful Heir to the mantle, I'm like "Eh." There's hardly anything supporting those possible futures. They don't feel to me like a natural evolution of the story that's been presented ongoing for so many years. They just feel like some editor said, "Make up a new Batman for the future, but you CAN'T use Nightwing." And it's like, why wouldn't you use him?

If that makes any sense.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If that makes any sense.

More sense than what DC normally has these days.

[CyberCubed]

Batman Beyond takes place when Bruce is like 80+ years old, which means Dick is likely in his 60's or older by that point. So even if Dick took up the mantle when he was younger he would have moved on by then too.

Batman Beyond originally came out in 1999, so in that timeframe I'd say it took place around the year 2050 or so? I don't know if its ever been officially stated anywhere.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Batman Beyond takes place when Bruce is like 80+ years old, which means Dick is likely in his 60's or older by that point. So even if Dick took up the mantle when he was younger he would have moved on by then too.

Comics establish he becomes the Mayor of Bludhaven, his daughter is Batwoman Beyond.

[IMJ]

The whole "kids and life progression" thing is taking a greater foothold in comics because it tracks with the comics readership, which is more akin to my age than it is to kids.

And it's probably born of the same thinking that makes people in marketing think that kids want to see kids doing things "like them" as opposed to seeing adults doing things that they can aspire to.

[BlimeyBullhop]

Super Goku

[Leo656]

Fair point about Dick's age, but nobody but them ever said they had to jump that far into the future to begin with, y'know? It still just feels like an editorial mandate more than an organic storytelling progression.

Frankly, none of the Possible Futures they've ever presented, from Dark Knight Returns to Beyond to Kingdom Come to DC One Million have ever felt like they "deserved" to be hard canon. But as What If stories or just different paths along the Multiverse they're still a lot of fun. I actually do like Possible Future stories a great deal, because it's fun to speculate. Some of them are even among my favorites, like some of the Armageddon 2001 stuff.
I just don't like when any of them get picked to be "official", in part because it's not likely that the story will ever move forward that far, anyway. Like in 2009 or whatever when they started trying to really make it look like Kingdom Come was finally going to happen in the official mainstream DCU; fun tease but I'm like "Yeah, no, that's not happening" and was a little bit annoyed that they were even teasing it. I did like how they managed to wiggle out of it, though. It was a fun ride but I knew it was just a tease so it kinda felt like a cheat. Plus, that future shouldn't be canon even though it's a great story.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Plus, that future shouldn't be canon even though it's a great story.

Not even Waid wants it to ever be canon, he's said time and again that it was meant to be an example of where DC shouldn't go, but unfortunately Didio and company are exactly the types of people who'd go there.

[Andrew NDB]

One of the saddest things I've ever seen in my life was Mark Waid coming to the mic at the Emerald City Comicon maybe 10 years ago to ask Geoff Johns a question about if Hal Jordan will ever resume his future persona from the comics, and the way Geoff dismissed him as an irate fan.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Not even Waid wants it to ever be canon, he's said time and again that it was meant to be an example of where DC shouldn't go, but unfortunately Didio and company are exactly the types of people who'd go there.

One of the rare things I agree with him on.

Like, I LOVE Kingdom Come, but as a Superman fan, when people say it's one of their favorite versions of him, I'm like.... W h y y y ? Did you READ it? His entire arc is, "Gets pissy and quits because people say he's a nostalgia act, lets the world go to hell while he goes to futz around on the Holodeck, comes back and makes things even worse by being too heavy-handed and almost causes Ragnarok." That's... that's bad. He's not exactly the hero of the piece. He's not the VILLAIN, either, but it's his own bad decisions and inaction that directly lead to everything afterwards. He pulls it together at the end, sure - and it is a GREAT story, one of the greatest of all time, partly because of that arc, don't get me wrong - but it's a cautionary tale at BEST.

Like, in "The Kingdom" when they tell Current-Gen Superman what his Other Self did in the KC timeline, and he's like, "No... NEVER! I will NEVER let that happen!"... that's the guy. That's how Superman is. He does not take his ball and go home because people make fun of him for not killing people. That's not who he is at all. "The Kingdom" was a VERY flawed piece of work - although I enjoy it - but that repudiation of Kingdom Come felt necessary.

I loved Geoff's run on Justice Society with KC Superman, Starman, Magog, etc., though. I loved every bit of it, I just felt like they were jerking people around by teasing that KC was actually on the horizon, and was glad that it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

One of the saddest things I've ever seen in my life was Mark Waid coming to the mic at the Emerald City Comicon maybe 10 years ago to ask Geoff Johns a question about if Hal Jordan will ever resume his future persona from the comics, and the way Geoff dismissed him as an irate fan.

Mark Waid also claims that when he saw Man of Steel in the theater, he jumped up and started yelling at the screen when Superman killed Zod. I really hope that's just a tall tale. I've heard him extrapolate at length on various things; he's a sharp cat, but in some ways he IS just an irate fan sometimes. He literally throws a fit whenever anything gets too far away from "Super-Friends" because that's what he grew up watching. And he's openly admitted as much, multiple times. Like dude, you're a senior citizen, grow the f*ck up and calm down.

His Flash run was goddamn brilliant, though. "The Return Of Barry Allen" from 1992-ish is one of my all-time favorite comic book stories, period. He's golden at some things. But on others he's way, way off. "Superman: Birthright", for example? Jesus, that thing is a mess. He's got no right to bitch at anyone else for their questionable creative choices, he's guilty as hell on a grand scale, himself.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Mark Waid also claims that when he saw Man of Steel in the theater, he jumped up and started yelling at the screen when Superman killed Zod. I really hope that's just a tall tale.

I have no idea if that's true or false, but that'd be dumb. Was he equally screaming at his comics when Byrne or whoever had Superman kill Zod in the comics in the 80s? That was a major plot point at the time. It even weighed on Superman in the "Superman vs. Aliens" comic.

[Leo656]

Probably. It was in a blog he wrote after the movie came out, and he went onto this whole long, deranged spiel about how fundamentally integral the concept of Superman never, ever, EVER killing anyone is. "Because it removes all the inspirational and heroic qualities of the character". Which is wrong on so many levels. I'm willing to bet he actually never read those books in the first place.

And frankly, the idea that someone is "less of a hero" when cops and soldiers kill people to protect others all the time is laughable. It's not like he smashed a purse-snatcher through a wall or liquefied a jaywalker, and it's not like it was an event that happened often in either case. It was an extreme circumstance in which someone MORE powerful than Superman said with a straight face, "I'm going to f*cking murder everyone. Literally everyone. And you can't stop me from doing it." And thus, he HAD to stop him from doing it. Because what was he gonna do, call his bluff? In the comics version, Zod had already murdered every single thing on that parallel Earth, from every human being to every blade of grass. He was by default like a million Adolf Hitlers combined. If there was even a .0000001% chance that he'd back up his claims - "I'm going to come to YOUR Earth and do the exact same thing, and make you watch!" - then it was too great a chance. If anything, he got off easy.

One can argue all day long about whether it's "fair" to put an "optimistic" character like Superman into such an extreme No-Win situation, but I call bullsh*t on that. The biggest knock people make on the character is that he's "too perfect" and "everything is easy for him", but if you READ the comics, it's never like that at all. He's constantly faced with No-Win situations and he's forever unsure of whether he did the right thing or not in any given situation he finds himself in. "Did I do too much? Not enough? Do I even have a right to my personal time? Every time I stop for coffee, people die. Even when I'm saving people Over Here, people are dying Over There. And I have to live with that." His entire f*cking LIFE is a No-Win scenario and he's just f*cking winging it. He has the HARDEST job in the universe and there's no manual. That story was simply a case of, "So here's Superman. Now here's the OPPOSITE of Superman. How do you stop him? How CAN you stop him?" Well... you're really only left with one solution, aren't you? If you don't get a pass for killing Space Hitler, well... I'unno, man.

That was one of the earliest comic books I ever read. My Dad used to read it to me, sometimes. And I'd say, "Dad, did Superman really have to kill that guy? I thought Superman never kills anyone?" And he said "Yeah, but sometimes even really good people have to do really bad things to keep other people safe. It doesn't mean they're not still good people. Superman always just does the best he can. The bad guy just didn't give him any choice." And from then on I never questioned it. It's STILL one of my all-time favorites and I get chills every time I get through the third issue. Especially the ending where he tearfully laments how he has to live with it for the rest of his life. How he knows everyone else still sees him as a hero, but he no longer feels like a hero to himself because in his heart he wishes he'd found another way, as impossible as that was to his logical mind. Powerful, powerful stuff. People who say there's no pathos or drama in Superman stories simply need to open a book once in a while.

And I loved how they referenced it in the Aliens cross-over, for sure (and what a great cross-over THAT was!). But even in the main books, he beat himself up so bad over it that he left Earth in disgrace until that Kryptonian priest set him straight. That gave us the whole Exile/WarWorld arc, which was brilliance in itself. The whole ordeal made Superman a better character and a better hero. The entire one or two-year arc from 88 through 89 was some of the best stuff that's ever been done with the character. So it's not like killing Zod happened in a vacuum and then he went back to smacking Prankster around like nothing happened. Pretty much the next decade-plus of stories grew out of that incident. It's arguably the defining moment of the Post-Crisis run, aside from the Doomsday thing. It's what everything else directly spun out of. If you piece it all together, NOTHING that happened in the comics through 2010 could have happened if the Zod Incident never took place. Mongul, Matrix Supergirl, Cyborg Superman, "Panic In The Sky", Eradicator/"Krypton Man", and even his resurrection, and on and on and on and on and ON. None of it happens - NONE of it - if he doesn't kill Zod. If Superman does not kill Zod, then dozens of the all-time greatest Superman stories ever put in print simply do not happen. Talk about a ripple effect. Why would anyone wish away the all-time greatest run in the character's printed history? Just because he fell from grace ONE time? The "fall" and "redemption" was the entire point of the arc!

Point being, these things don't happen for the sake of being "dark and edgy". They're about character growth, about Actions and Consequences. Pathos and Drama. Growing beyond trauma. Making the Impossible Choice and finding a way to live with it. Fighting to become the Best Possible Version Of Yourself. THAT is what Superman comics, at their best, are about. Everything great about fiction, period. If Mark Waid doesn't "get" that, because Superman pajamas are sold to little kids and therefore he can't ever kill a bad guy, even the WORST bad guy, then he's not much of a writer in my opinion.

It's not that Superman Never Kills. He shouldn't and REALLY doesn't want to. But I find it laughable to suggest that just because he's a "symbol of hope" he'd stand there and let people die if he could stop it, just because the only way he could stop it would be icky. It should ONLY ever be written as an Absolute Last Resort, obviously, and in both the comic and the film, that's exactly what it was. Therefore, I have zero problem with it and will furthermore say that it was the only real solution in either case.

Mark Waid is simply a well-intentioned manchild with an overly-simplistic view of morality. And occasionally, depending on character and circumstance, a very good writer. But as someone who's read Birthright multiple times, I'll flat-out say that he doesn't know jack from sh*t about Superman and shouldn't base his opinions on a bad cartoon show from 1974.

Seriously. He bases his characters on Super-Friends. Super-Friends. It's like he can't even hear himself talk. I wish the man no ill will whatsoever, and his Flash run would be one of my Desert Island picks for sure, but he should know when to stay in his lane, is all. His opinion is not The Gospel.

[ZariusTwo]

A full plot break down of the pilot has surfaced online

Spoiler:

Clark narrates his origin. Obligatory flashback to Krypton blowing up. The Kents finding him, Jon dying while Clark was a teen. Clark meets Lois at the Daily Planet. I hope this isn’t the only scene with Perry White in it. But it looks like he’s no longer around. He might not fare any better than he did in Smallville screen time wise Also Steve Lombard makes a cameo. No mention of Jimmy though.
Jump to the present post crisis. Clark and Lois have twins, Jonathan who is a jock, and Jordan who suffers from mental illness. Neither know who their dad is, though Lois wants to tell them. Clark doesn’t want them to feel alien like he did.
Superman and Sam Lane are surprisingly chummy. They are working together to see who is sabotaging nuclear power plants. Evidence points to a speedster. Superman sugggests that this may be the Flash’s problem.
Later Clark has a very bad day. He gets fired and he learns his mother died of a stroke within the same 15 minutes. Morgan Edge runs the Daily Planet. Apparently a free man post-crisis.
They go to Smallville for the funeral. We meet Lana and her family. Also Cobb is there too, no mention of Kathy though. Clark being older than he looks is addressed again. The Langs are in support of Morgan Edge which leading to drunken argument between Lois and Lana’s husband (Pete is namedropped at one point, but this isn’t him).
Lane shows up again, revealing that the stranger is leaving messages to Superman in a kryptonian language. Also it is revealed that both Lois and Clark remember pre and post crisis.
The twins later find Clark’s old spaceship in the barn after almost getting killed by fallen debrey. After they survive without injury Clark and Lois assume Jonathan has powers and tell them the truth. Later after surviving another accident, it is revealed Jordan is the one with powers. At the same time Superman has a fight with the mysterious stranger who attacked the nuclear power plants and left kryptonian messages. He reveals he is from a world that was destroyed by crisis. Revealing that he and Superman were archenemies in his world. Then he throws kryptonite at Superman and escapes.
Later Clark decides he’s going to try to get his farm up and running and try to keep Morgan Edge’s influence from spreading to SMALLVILLE.
Elsewhere, the mysterious stranger is revealed to be Lex Luthor

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

A full plot break down of the pilot has surfaced online

Spoiler:

Clark narrates his origin. Obligatory flashback to Krypton blowing up. The Kents finding him, Jon dying while Clark was a teen. Clark meets Lois at the Daily Planet. I hope this isn’t the only scene with Perry White in it. But it looks like he’s no longer around. He might not fare any better than he did in Smallville screen time wise Also Steve Lombard makes a cameo. No mention of Jimmy though.
Jump to the present post crisis. Clark and Lois have twins, Jonathan who is a jock, and Jordan who suffers from mental illness. Neither know who their dad is, though Lois wants to tell them. Clark doesn’t want them to feel alien like he did.
Superman and Sam Lane are surprisingly chummy. They are working together to see who is sabotaging nuclear power plants. Evidence points to a speedster. Superman sugggests that this may be the Flash’s problem.
Later Clark has a very bad day. He gets fired and he learns his mother died of a stroke within the same 15 minutes. Morgan Edge runs the Daily Planet. Apparently a free man post-crisis.
They go to Smallville for the funeral. We meet Lana and her family. Also Cobb is there too, no mention of Kathy though. Clark being older than he looks is addressed again. The Langs are in support of Morgan Edge which leading to drunken argument between Lois and Lana’s husband (Pete is namedropped at one point, but this isn’t him).
Lane shows up again, revealing that the stranger is leaving messages to Superman in a kryptonian language. Also it is revealed that both Lois and Clark remember pre and post crisis.
The twins later find Clark’s old spaceship in the barn after almost getting killed by fallen debrey. After they survive without injury Clark and Lois assume Jonathan has powers and tell them the truth. Later after surviving another accident, it is revealed Jordan is the one with powers. At the same time Superman has a fight with the mysterious stranger who attacked the nuclear power plants and left kryptonian messages. He reveals he is from a world that was destroyed by crisis. Revealing that he and Superman were archenemies in his world. Then he throws kryptonite at Superman and escapes.
Later Clark decides he’s going to try to get his farm up and running and try to keep Morgan Edge’s influence from spreading to SMALLVILLE.
Elsewhere, the mysterious stranger is revealed to be Lex Luthor

Glad its Luthor hopefully its Jon Cryer's version. this show doesn't sound half bad

[Andrew NDB]

Sounds kind of weak to me, but I'll give it the once over.

[ZariusTwo]

The series will debut in January, Tuesdays at 9 PM. The Flash will be it's lead-in

https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/...elay-covid-19/

..Whilst the next Arrowverse crossover will be between this show and Batwoman

https://tvline.com/2020/05/14/arrowv...batwoman-2021/