Do you think we will see the REAL OT turtles in the 2012 toon?

[Leo656]

Them's some broad strokes you're paintin' with, friend.

More accurate to say, "Some of the people who like 'Turtles Forever' have a slight preference for 2K3 over the OT in general, thus are less offended by the blatant caricature the versions of the OT TMNT were clearly meant to be in this representation."

[Konchadunga]

I, for one, have a more than slight preference for the 4Kids show over the OT, but it doesn't matter. Stupid and annoying is just stupid and annoying, and extends far beyond the Fred Wolf turtles in that movie. The last three seasons of the 4Kids show removed just about any dignity it had, and TF just failed to bring much of it back. It's not just the portrayal of the Fred Wolf turtles that bothers me about the movie; almost all aspects of it feel like a bad fanfiction.

For example, contrived deux ex machinas for warping. I don't remember anything as lame as a dimensional teleporter made from a flashlight (nor Don saying science relied on guesswork and positive thinking to make such things) or a galactic Google search with a built-in retrieval beam in the OT, but even if they were, either they shouldn't have still worked in the 2003 universe, or the latter should have at least given the OT villains some sort of leg up, instead of just being used to bring back Ch'rel and humiliate them. Also, how is it that OT Don can build a working teleporter from a flashlight, but somehow the lasers he built on the Turtlevan out of parts from Stockman's lab suddenly don't hurt villains? What possible excuse is there for that?

Also, plotholes; so many I'll count them:
1) How did the OT Turtles get out of the Technodrome when it warped to the 4Kids universe?
2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.
5) Where the shell is everyone in the Mirage universe?! I've been to New York, and nowhere were the streets just barren at night, but even if I could buy that in that one place, the people were just sleeping, the Technodrome rampaging would have woken them up. There wasn't even any evidence of the commotion caused by them fleeing it, and in New York, that many people could not have fled all at once without many of them being gridlocked.
6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

Again, I know this is meta and you might argue I shouldn't be thinking about it, but I retort that the writers of the movie shouldn't have gone there for that very reason. Their whole cosmology is just dumb, and in my opinion, they didn't achieve Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool nearly enough to make that forgivable; in practice they just came off as annoying and cocky.

Turtles Forever was worth watching once for its occasional good joke and action scenes, but overall I still see it as either something I could have done a lot better, or a cool idea on paper that should have remained just that. It happened at a time when I was through giving the 4Kids show any more chances, and it had long-since lost any pretense of seriousness and Mirage-faithfulness being its justification for eschewing the OT. At the beginning of that show's run, I was overjoyed to see a take on the TMNT where they actually fought, the villains were menacing, April wasn't a worthless damsel in distress, and the whole universe was not an ever-expanding self-parody. I loved seeing DoctorDrink declare the 4Kids show to be better, despite his nostalgia. Yet by the time that movie came out, that score was settled, and the ones I wanted to see one-upped were Peter Laird and what was left of his show. I wanted someone to smack them for their hypocrisy with "Wait a minute; everything from Fred Wolf is off limits just because it's Fred Wolf, but somehow stuff from Naruto and The Jetsons and Megaman: NT Warrior is fine?! That crap wasn't in Mirage either!"

Resentiment never makes good art, in my opinion. Some people like dada, and grunge, and indie-rock, because apparently they share their purveyors' opinions that making art to spite something old and "stupid" is a good idea, but I don't. Most of the stuff that's become popular and commercialized throughout history became that way specifically because people liked it, and to rebel against popular opinion and established standards of quality is to be self-centered and self-righteous. The 4Kids series was fun not because it went out of its way to avoid becoming like the Fred Wolf series, but because it did so to become like the Mirage series. Until it didn't. Starting with Shredder being an alien, and thus falling again into the Big Bad trope the Fred Wolf show established, the show's quality slipped, and mostly kept slipping the further it went. This says to me that in the end, Laird really didn't know how to make a great original show; only to take his own ego and prior ideas as far as they'd go, and struggle to go any farther.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

I still see it as either something I could have done a lot better

I'd argue that a lot of the other grievances are a matter of taste mixed with how deeply one is willing to look into the writing of a kids show. But that sentence just miffs me whenever anyone says that. "This is bad because it's not how *I* would have done it" just always rubs me the wrong way for some reason as a criticism. I know that wasn't your main point, just letting you know it can be construed as accidentally pretentious. Especially in this case, since I would think (without bothering to check) that before and since TF existed, there have been at least a million fanfics exploring the exact same premise. Nothing personal, though, I know what you really meant.

In any case, I think most people just don't care to look as deeply as you are with Turtles Forever. I promise you, at no point from conception to development to completion were they looking to address plot holes, adhere to continuity, tie up loose ends or provide fair representation to other TMNT universes. It was, and is, simply a big ol' fanservice clusterf*ck, and I think that should be ok and people should just take it for what it is.

No, it's not perfect, it's just dumb fun and a novelty for people who never thought they'd see the OT Turtles and 2K3 Turtles onscreen at the same time. Judging it as anything else isn't entirely fair, as that would be judging it for not being something it was never intended to be in the first place. Your brain is supposed to stop thinking once it has processed "DOOD it's the Turtles and the OTHER Turtles OMG!!1!" Look any deeper than that and of course you're not going to be happy.

[Konchadunga]

I am as capable of enjoying dumb fun as much as the next guy, but I pose two questions: 1, why accept dumb fun when I know it's possible to do smarter stories that are no less fun? 2, if they only intended dumb fun, where do they get off skewering the Fred Wolf series for being just that?

To be honest, fanservice gets old. It gets old because it requires a series to be old; to have things that many fans latch onto and treasure, but that get buried in time for a while, championed only by aficionados while the rest of the world moves on. It thus is always fun for many people when an author pulls up old treasured memories, but because that in and of itself takes no effort, a work's purveyors can only ride the wave of nostalgia for so long before they actually have to do something good with it.

I was as psyched as anyone else when I heard of TF, and though I thought it was a disappointment the first time I watched it, I still enjoyed it more than enough for it to get me back into all things TMNT. This renewed obsession, however, inspired me to rewatch a whole bunch of episodes from both shows, as well as seek out many of the Mirage stories, and after all that, I rewatched the movie, and its flaws just got more and more offensive to me, because there's more to being a fan than nostalgia. There's also solid memories of actual well-written stories all across the incarnations, and I'd prefer those in a single incarnation to a deeply flawed mess crossing them over.

In fact, as I said in another thread tonight, I'm starting to feel the same way about IDW. Fanservice was awesome for a while, but at a certain point, actual creativity and writing needs to step in.

[Leo656]

I don't know. I can't entirely disagree with you, I just feel like with regards to TMNT in general, I sort of know what I'm getting into and just try to enjoy what I'm given rather than bemoan what I was not (MOST of the time). For the most part, I wish TMNT in general wasn't so linked to bad slapstick, dated humor and pizza jokes, and I do wish for it to be presented, generally, in a more sophisticated fashion than it's usually been, but at some point I think I just gave up on that and started taking it for what it is, or at least what the creative powers-that-be want it to be.

With TF, I got exactly what I expected to get and was fine with that. I hadn't seen most of the last 2 or 3 seasons of 2K3, so the stuff that didn't fit didn't bother me, and I was honestly expecting the FW versions to be played down even more than they were. Just because the potential is there to turn something into the equivalent of Shakespeare doesn't mean they have to.

Potentially, sure, we could have had a two-hour epic where all of it was played straight, the FW TMNT characters were seen just as they were in the first mini-series, the 2K3 versions weren't so condescending, and the Mirage ones had a bigger role. Would'a been nice. Sometimes, I just figure, "Eh, close enough." I knew from the start they weren't going to put THAT much work into it.

Again, can't disagree with you opinions. I guess I just settle for less, sometimes. I'm kinda old, it happens. As far as TMNT in general goes, let's be honest, its entire continued existence is nothing more than "fanservice"; it's not THAT popular and every version since the OT has leaned heavily on referencing/reimagining what came before to sell itself in hopes people who grew up liking it will approve. Isn't that kind of the very definition of "fanservice"?

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by CowabungaMikey

I'm just waiting for a 2003 meets 2012 special.

2003: What the shell?
2012: *dumb sound*

2003: backflips everytime they use a toaster
2012: rolls their eyes *wah wah waaaah*

[Konchadunga]

I for one would be more interested in seeing 2012 Karai mock 2003 Karai, but I guess it depends on how 2012 Karai evolves.

Actually, new idea: How about a special where every major incarnation crosses over to stop a now-evil Venus from enslaving them all with her Mary Sue powers?

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

To restate a point in a recent thread, I think the so-called Fred Wolf turtles in Turtles Forever actually resemble the movie turtles a lot more. (Barring the fourth movie.) This is because the movie turtles truly were more incessantly giddy and prone to clowning around even in dire situations. So yeah; if it had actually been them in TF, I could see one or two jokes about them getting attacked while trying something silly, and wondering why their enemies don't just give them time to do it.

Yet that really isn't how the Fred Wolf turtles approached situations. Their problem was really the opposite; they acted serious when threatened, but they fought like clowns. It worked, and so whatever, but I still didn't like it. At least TF got that right, but their goofy attitude was wrong from the start, and worse each time it kept going.

I'm not entirely convinced 4Kids intentionally insulted the Fred Wolf series. Yes; there was a lot of fanservice, and they got some things right, like Fred Wolf Raph's Fourth Wall humor, and Fred Wolf Shredder and Krang's bickering. (Though I call bull**** on them losing to an utrom in hand-to-hand combat.) However, 4Kids has many deep flaws that infect the movie badly. Their TMNT show's humor always tended to be annoying sooner than funny, they're infamous for just not caring about what they adapt (including the Mirage series, based on Peter Laird's journals of his angry reprimands to their writers), and the whole series had taken a massive turn for the stupid for three seasons leading up. Considering they weren't even getting their own turtle show right by that point, it's not hard to see why they'd botch someone else's. Forgetting accuracy for a moment, TF is a let down simply for being an annoying movie full of stupid plotholes and deus ex machinas.

Now, back on topic: Will the 2012 show get them better? Well; if insults are a factor, I don't think this show is likely to do that, since it has a much more positive attitude toward (most of) the Fred Wolf era than Peter Laird did. I (and many others) also find this show's humor to be much better than 4Kids' show's (Also, much better than Nieli's prior work on Teen Titans), which is a plus for diverse character humor. (That's a good theory on why TF ended up making "five Mikeys;" because Mikey's man-child antics were close to the only type of humor they'd had any practice doing.) So I think they're in better hands. I have to wonder, though, if they'd end up having too few opportunities for jokes, since it seems like they might be sliding this series further and further into the mold of the Fred Wolf series anyway.

Oh god, I'm so relieved that I am not the only who felt this way, but those movie turtles were all clones of Mikey (save for raph) and OT turtles from Turtles Forever acted just like them.

[CyberCubed]

Turtles Forever was an excellent movie and anyone who thinks otherwise is being way too bitter about minuscule details.

[Leo656]

Or, y'now, it just wasn't their cup of tea. Whichever.

Edit: Nevermind. Upon reflection, tea itself is rather bitter. So I guess you're right. Damn it.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Or, y'now, it just wasn't their cup of tea. Whichever.

Edit: Nevermind. Upon reflection, tea itself is rather bitter. So I guess you're right. Damn it.

Yeah. Far be it for anyone to have a different opinion lol.

[Raphaeline]

The one who changed the most since the 87 series is Raph. We was never angry in the 87 series, and always joking around.

So I guess if the Nick Raph meets the old Raph, it would be a bit the same as when 2003 Raph met the old one. Something like "WTF? who is that goofball?"

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, but 2K12 Raph definitely isn't as angry as 2K3 Raph was. I still can't wait for them to meet though. It'll be very interesting to see.

[Dragnskull]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Not even close Cybercubed.

Hopefully since Rob Paulsen himself is there(as well as the other 3), he can help keep things under control so the Turtles aren't portrayed as being TOO goofy.

For some reason, I have faith that they will be potrayed way better here.

His name was Robert Paulson.

[Raphaeline]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Yeah, but 2K12 Raph definitely isn't as angry as 2K3 Raph was. I still can't wait for them to meet though. It'll be very interesting to see.

They're different. Raph from 2003 seemed kinder. Angry, but always wanting to help/rescue people in need (children in the street, grandmas, etc). But the 2012 Raph seems more selfish, says harsh things to his brothers, and runs into the danger without thinking either. When Leo says to April that they will help her, Raph was the first to say he didn't really want to, but followed the decision of Leo after all.

Raph from 2003 seemed more sociable to me.


*cute*

[Powder]

Well, Nick Raph is younger, & the series is trying to stress their youthful faults so that we can see them grow over the seasons. & he definitely cares, he's defended and worried about his brothers, he tried to impress April by making up a story about Donny's heroics, etc.

[BubblyShell22]

I agree. Nick Raph isn't totally heartless. He realized he'd been harsh on Donnie at the beginning and knew he had to make up for it, so he did. And he even apologized to Leo at the end of "New Girl In Town" for criticizing his leadership skills and being a jerk.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by ***The One True Shredder***

Ironically, Nick has been better to Michelangelo than most of the other incarnations. He's still the goofy little brother, but they've made it a point that he's eccentric/nonsensical, NOT stupid, whereas the 2003 series had him acting like a retard, and the 2007 movie had him acting like a pothead.

I don't know what you're talking about. 4Kids mike was goofy but not stupid. Nick Mike is the one who acts retarded.

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.

In the uncut version of the film Karai explains she has a tracking device on Ch'rell.
He was still her father, and the Cyber Shredder wasn't just a cyber clone.
I don't think Ch'rell knew about the mutagen, and I don't think the Utroms knew how to make it it was just toxic waste from their transmat.

[Raphaeline]

I don't say Raph fro Nick series is heartless, I love that character, I just say that he seems less "officially" caring than the 2K3 one.

Of course at the end of the épisodes, he tries to apology (in his own way), but Raph from 2k3 was showing that more clearly (takes Mikey in his arms when he thinks Leatherhead killed him, cries when he is in front of the almost-dying Leo, etc).

Let's say that while the 2k3 Raph helps a blind grandma, comes back to visit her, stuff like this, I see the Nick Raph just saying "it's not our problem".

Yes I hope they will all grow up and get more mature, but they are supposed to be 15 just like the 2k3 turtles.

I don't know what you're talking about. 4Kids mike was goofy but not stupid. Nick Mike is the one who acts retarded.

I totally agree on that.

[BubblyShell22]

I don't see Nick Raph refusing to help someone in need, especially an older person.

4Kids Mikey was worse because he acted like an arrogant jerk after the Battle Nexus story arc. Nick Mikey is not retarded. He has a short attention span, but I would have thought that Parasitica would have shown how he can be smart and do things right.