Motivating the Fandom

[ZariusTwo]

Why? The Turtles have always been "the last of their species."

Also, why, why, why are we talking about this?

Beats me, rather than help with the documentary or things related to it, we're still posting s*ite like this. How stupid is this fandom? Do they even deserve any sympathy at this rate? I've seen FURRIES with more intelligence

Again, if we can discuss Baxter's mutilations and Shrdder being decapitated without going for an airsickness bag, we can also discuss this. I know there are kids here sometimes, but geez what is with the world when we can discuss extreme mutilation but not sex?

Shredder and Baxter's problems are depicted in the appropriate media as something that had no consequences in the current series. Perverted discussions centering on fictional characters that were pretty much aimed at a child demographic isnt depicted in the media and has never been the focus of the franchise.

If you want to discuss sex, discuss your own (lack of), sex life, not adhear it to discussions that range from incest to detail-to-detail on a forum KIDS read.

God, will this fracking fandom ever grow up?

[Ryona]

Beats me, rather than help with the documentary or things related to it, we're still posting s*ite like this. How stupid is this fandom? Do they even deserve any sympathy at this rate? I've seen FURRIES with more intelligence

Sad but true. TMNT fandom has been slipping through the cracks. I've been seeing alot of b*llshit for a while now. Mostly coming from the new wave of fans.

It seems us real TMNT fans from the 80s generation are the ones keeping it together.


A member who was banned after posting Venus inspired Hentai on the boards.

:lol: Those where the good ol' days.

[Krang]

Beats me, rather than help with the documentary or things related to it, we're still posting s*ite like this. How stupid is this fandom? Do they even deserve any sympathy at this rate? I've seen FURRIES with more intelligence

Shredder and Baxter's problems are depicted in the appropriate media as something that had no consequences in the current series. Perverted discussions centering on fictional characters that were pretty much aimed at a child demographic isnt depicted in the media and has never been the focus of the franchise.

If you want to discuss sex, discuss your own (lack of), sex life, not adhear it to discussions that range from incest to detail-to-detail on a forum KIDS read.

God, will this fracking fandom ever grow up?
I agree with you that threads like this one are dumb, in my opinion. However, sitting around and complaining about it accomplishes nothing. If you want to see the types of discussions around here change, make the effort to change them. Here are some ideas:

Start new threads that you think are beneficial to the fandom.
Bump old discussions that interested you.
Invite people to these forums to get more discussion going.
Post regularly in the documentary threads to draw attention to them.

If you focus your energy on positive things like those, you actually can make a difference. But if you want to continue talking down to people and blowing everything out of proportion, don't expect to see any results.

[ZariusTwo]

I agree with you that threads like this one are dumb, in my opinion. However, sitting around and complaining about it accomplishes nothing.

Harsh criticism and harsh motivation accomplishes things when the strong, able minds, not the excessively weak and feeble ones, LISTEN. I don't beleive it accomplishes "nothing", I think a good kick in the face wakes people up to what they could live up to, not just in this community, but anywhere else where they are in a posistion to make changes.

I usually stay OUT of these threads, but that's because most of the time we don't have a great project hanging over our heads. I want this fandom to prove itself with that project, we shouldnt be wasting our time posting dumbell threads like this. This is what the documentary is trying to AVOID, and we DISGRACE it.

As for posting new threads that would try a positive approach? Yes, let's break down how that went down.

1. I've had to fight tooth and nail to get people to send me and my partners videos for the documentary. Even before Canadian announched his project, I was going nowhere with the help. Half-assed promises, unfulfilled obligations, it became so routine I abandoned that thread until Canadian started posting.


2. When my artist for my TMNT comic, something that would be produced for that documentary, got bitch-slapped by problems in life, I asked for help and DIDNT get it. After I specificly said "Can I have a long-term commitment", one a-hole even said "I'm too lazy"....was he thick or something? Maybe, I don't know what this fandom considers a priority...probably if I asked them to lick an ice cream for five minutes for charity, they'd rather discuss how long a Turtle would lick the ice cream...sexually.

I have TRIED to play it postively Krang, but the reality is is that this doesnt work in a shallow, empty, and unmotivated fandom that is content with having a nice period of activity, then returning to the levels of unparalelled obscurity, much like the franchise itself.

I've since had to hold back my online comic until Raven is better off than he currently is, but he too shares my frustrations and I'd rather keep a project with someone who can and will do it than someone who never will and waste my time.

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I'm telling you the truth. This fandom needs a good kick in the balls. Fact.

[Krang]

Harsh criticism and harsh motivation accomplishes things when the strong, able minds, not the excessively weak and feeble ones, LISTEN. I don't beleive it accomplishes "nothing", I think a good kick in the face wakes people up to what they could live up to, not just in this community, but anywhere else where they are in a posistion to make changes.
The question is, why would people want to listen to you when you act so condescending toward them? You're not motivating people, you're cutting them down, and from what I've seen, that always hurts the situation far more than it helps.

I usually stay OUT of these threads, but that's because most of the time we don't have a great project hanging over our heads. I want this fandom to prove itself with that project, we shouldnt be wasting our time posting dumbell threads like this. This is what the documentary is trying to AVOID, and we DISGRACE it.
I agree that the documentary has a lot of potential to help out the fandom, but you can't expect people to talk about nothing besides it. If this insignificant thread never existed, I doubt it would have given the people who posted in it all that much more time to spend on helping out the documentary, especially considering how short the majority of the posts in here are.

Also, I see that you have had a frustrating experience in getting people to contribute to your projects, but that's not what I was referring to. My suggestions are for improving the quality of conversation on the forums, which is what you were complaining about in your original post.

[ZariusTwo]

The question is, why would people want to listen to you when you act so condescending toward them? You're not motivating people, you're cutting them down, and from what I've seen, that always hurts the situation far more than it helps.

If I'm cutting them down, then they clearly don't want to be motivated or challenged. I've been on harsher communities where that attitude steels people and cuts around corners.

I agree that the documentary has a lot of potential to help out the fandom, but you can't expect people to talk about nothing besides it.

I never said it had to be the consistent vocal point of conversation, but it should have more activity and participation involved than it does currently, especially when it has to play second fiddle to daily discussions on THIS crap. True, there's not a lot of posts in HERE, but I'm not just talking about this thread, I'm talking about these kinds of threads constantly cropping up....it's sad.

Also, I see that you have had a frustrating experience in getting people to contribute to your projects, but that's not what I was referring to. My suggestions are for improving the quality of conversation on the forums, which is what you were complaining about in your original post.

Did this sudden concern for "quality of conversation" occur before or after you threw my previous vents and concerns into a thread called "Pointless Whining"? when I was neither whining or without a point to make? I took personal exception to that, but opted not to PM you my outrage, I figured there'd be another time, another place to vent, and I found that.

I'm a fan like you and everyone. I just like my fandoms to be much hungrier than they actually are.

[gobo]

Just curious, Zarius, but what other fandoms exist where they volunteer to take your abuse? If you want to be a condescending supervisor without expecting people to give up on you, start paying them. That's the only reason anyone in the business world would stand for your "harsh criticism"... low self-esteem aside.

[ZariusTwo]

Looks like you didnt pay attention in class did ya boy?:roll:

I'm social with anyone that gets on my wagon, there's no bickering, no fighting, no "abuse", if I find flaw, I tell them to try again.

Turning the other way (or, hell, saying "I'm not putting up with this unless there's money involved") is nothing to suggest, or be proud of, it doesnt teach me to "be more positive", it proves me RIGHT how about stupid and insulting those morons are to the poor saps who post threads saying how "fortunate" we are..they sabotauge our integrity and that adulation.

If you want to be a condescending supervisor without expecting people to give up on you, start paying them.

If they give up on me, I don't care, because there idiots who'll go on posting threads like this and if anything, I'll get more a laugh at how unaccomplished they are in life, and are content to remain that way and turn the argument back on someone

That's the only reason anyone in the business world would stand for your "harsh criticism"... low self-esteem aside.

This isnt the buisness world, this is a fandom, nobody's earning any money, but people who are SPENDING money to give us a non-profit project ought to be helped a little more

But you won't listen, and that's fine, I'm laughing, I'm proven right. That documentary will be finished one day, my comic will be finished one day...but guess who missed out because all they did was post about Venus DeMillo's sexual preferences and couldnt process someone's concerns as something that basicly told them to look in the mirror and examine their own character?


Krang, you can move these posts to another section of the board if you like. Possibly under the title "Motivating The Fandom", and we'll get it out of the way. I wouldnt want to refrain people from continuing this STIMULATING conversation...
:lol::lol::lol:

[gobo]

This isnt the buisness world
Nor did I suggest it was. I'm just pointing out that's how they do it. But, I see I've gotten under your skin. Sorry. Just trying to give you some perspective. This is how I see things, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Coola Yagami]

Calm the hell down dude. TMNT is for everyone and we can discuss whatever we want about it wether or not YOU do or don't like it. People are free to discuss wether they preffer Mikey with black eyes or baby blues, if Fast Forward was better or worse than Red Sky, and who would date Venus. Case closed dude. I don't see what's the big deal, noone said anything about Raph dating a foxwoman, flirting with a lizard girl, or Mikey hittin on an alien girl or even some woman from ancient Japan that already had a love interest to begin with.

[Krang]

I never said it had to be the consistent vocal point of conversation, but it should have more activity and participation involved than it does currently, especially when it has to play second fiddle to daily discussions on THIS crap. True, there's not a lot of posts in HERE, but I'm not just talking about this thread, I'm talking about these kinds of threads constantly cropping up....it's sad.
And my suggestions above address everything you mentioned. You could also add this to the list: "Don't post in threads that you think are stupid, since that only draws more attention to them."

Did this sudden concern for "quality of conversation" occur before or after
You still seem to be misinterpreting my original post. I posted those suggestions because you seemed concerned about the quality of conversation around here.

you threw my previous vents and concerns into a thread called "Pointless Whining"? when I was neither whining or without a point to make? I took personal exception to that, but opted not to PM you my outrage, I figured there'd be another time, another place to vent, and I found that.
Well, your posts in that thread mostly consisted of complaining (whining) about the forum staff not stickying the thread even though you never asked us to. If you did ask, we would have gladly done so, meaning there was no need to complain in the first place (which makes the whole thing pointless). I think the new title was rather fitting.

But please, that thread is dead and buried, so let's not continue to dwell on that to avoid ruining this thread like what almost happened to the documentary thread.

Krang, you can move these posts to another section of the board if you like. Possibly under the title "Motivating The Fandom", and we'll get it out of the way.
Good idea.

[Kendamu]

So, I read the first half and then just kinda skimmed after that. Just to make sure I didn't completely miss the idea here: We're arguing about arguing and whining about whining because the documentary is in Production Hell and people like to talk about mutant ninja privates.

Did I miss anything?

[ZariusTwo]

Nobody's whining, so get off that line of inquiry

And you'd be right on everything else.:lol:

It goes beyond just the documentary too, this is about getting the fandom to do more productive things than discuss private parts and sexual preferences.

Calm the hell down dude. TMNT is for everyone and we can discuss whatever we want about it wether or not YOU do or don't like it.

I really don't have the time to discuss this crucial matter with someone who clearly doesnt "get it", but I need the laugh

Here's a reality of life buster: You don't DESERVE TMNT with the kind of crap you talk about. And damn right if I don't like what I'm reading, I WILL vent about it because we could be doing something much better. It's a free country, but that doesnt mean people have to WASTE that freedom and embarras themselves.

People are free to discuss wether they preffer Mikey with black eyes or baby blues, if Fast Forward was better or worse than Red Sky, and who would date Venus.

People are stupid, especially when they discuss the first and latter options more consistently. These characters are fictional, get out of your hole and start doing something that benefits the franchise, that's the only "reality" you ought to be dealing with

Case closed dude.

Because you say so? Hardly. It's just begun.

[Kendamu]

I guess I'm worthless no matter which way you look at it. I don't do productive things and I don't discuss ninja privates. All I do is enjoy the comics and DVDs. :P

[ZariusTwo]

Do you enjoy 'em....privatley?:)

[Kendamu]

No. I'm an exhibitionist. :D

[Drtooth]

If you want to discuss sex, discuss your own (lack of), sex life, not adhear it to discussions that range from incest to detail-to-detail on a forum KIDS read.

God, will this fracking fandom ever grow up?

That's the sad thing about internet fandom. Doesn't matter what show you like, someone's going to start a lengthy discussion of what characters they want to bang... be they children or animals. I have said it before, I hate searching up drawing references and finding Mandy (of Billy and Mandy) nude, showing her self off. I agree with you on this, but I think it needs to apply to all fandom of every animated series comic book or movie.

[Kendamu]

Such is why I do not discuss Avatar: The Last Airbender with anybody.

[TristanHuwJones]

What is it, rule 34 or something? :sick:

[Cipher]

Beats me, rather than help with the documentary or things related to it, we're still posting s*ite like this. How stupid is this fandom? Do they even deserve any sympathy at this rate? I've seen FURRIES with more intelligenceI completely agree that there's alot of, for lack of a better word, stupidity, around here, especially evident in threads about Turtle sex, or imaginary Turtle habits, or what have you.

However, I don't think you can call the fandom lazy for not putting in huge commitments for fan comics and documentaries. Not everyone has the facilities, talent, time, or interest (despite how much they may love the property) for those sorts of things.

What I would personally love to see is motivation for better discussion. Less talk of Turtle sex and how "deep" the new toon characters are, and more analysis of storylines. More reminiscing about favorite moments. More discussion about the franchise. More substance. We don't need more flash-bang fan projects, we just need more intellegent discussion. Which for my part, I have tried to do.

People are free to discuss wether they preffer Mikey with black eyes or baby blues, if Fast Forward was better or worse than Red Sky, and who would date Venus.You make a good argument for dictatorship.

[Kendamu]

What is it, rule 34 or something? :sick:
No. Nothing like that. I just can't have a conversation about Avatar without soandsoXsoandso becoming the main point. Maybe once in awhile I'd like to laugh about how the dance that needed to be learned for Firebending looks like the Fusion Dance from Dragonball Z. Maybe once in awhile I'd like to talk about how the pirates are actually pirate-ninjas! Or how about, just maybe, I get to talk about how awesome the Blue Spirit is or how Iroh is the greatest character in the history of ever... As opposed to arguing about who Zukko should be "fusion dancing" with.

I feel like I'm the only person who watched that show for the adventure, humor, and martial arts action while everyone else watched it as a romance.

[ZariusTwo]

Actually, we DO need fan projects. Tons of 'em. A professional, constantly moving and worldly fandom beats the hell out of nerds talking about the same topics day in, day out, regardless of the improved conversations. That's a component, but not what will help the bigger wheels work

You know things are bleak for this franchise when the Power Rangers fandom has more controversy, fan projects, group activity, and podcasts than any portion of TMNT combined. From what I've seen of the strides fans have made in the fan communities also for He-Man, Transformers, and more for "Mosiac" test runs for comic writers, and commentaries for DVDs...I don't beleive this "people don't have the time" bunk, people in this fandom are just lazy. This is a fact.

The documentary is the first true pulse I've seen from fans in years and it's a route we need to encourage.

I'm not saying we should write Of Mice and Mayhem of course. God help us.

[Cipher]

You know things are bleak for this franchise when the Power Rangers fandom has more controversy, fan projects, group activity, and podcasts than any portion of TMNT combined. From what I've seen of the strides fans have made in the fan communities also for He-Man, Transformers, and more for "Mosiac" test runs for comic writers, and commentaries for DVDs...I don't beleive this "people don't have the time" bunk, people in this fandom are just lazy. This is a fact.

The documentary is the first true pulse I've seen from fans in years and it's a route we need to encourage.

I'm not saying we should write Of Mice and Mayhem of course. God help us.I suppose I just take offense to the assumption that anyone unwilling to devote time to these projects is a lazy, Turtle sex-obsessed asshole. Sure, I want more recognition for the TMNT, but I've got college and work and a social life, and a huge number of things that prevent me from doing anything more than trying to present decent disucssion of the franchise.

So we do what we can. Don't set your expectations unreasonably high. Berating certain topics, however, is fine and probably deserved.

[ZariusTwo]

I suppose I just take offense to the assumption that anyone unwilling to devote time to these projects is a lazy, Turtle sex-obsessed asshole. Sure, I want more recognition for the TMNT, but I've got college and work and a social life

And yet these are people who have what you and others have and go through with their contributions regardless.

Noone's an asshole if they geinually care about where we are and want to find a way to change it eventually, slowly, in their own time.

So we do what we can. Don't set your expectations unreasonably high. Berating certain topics, however, is fine and probably deserved.

That's where I'm coming from. Glad you approve.

[The Terror of Death]

On the topic of bad discussion I completely agree. If people aren't talking about shipping their exaggerating the littlest thing, making the most outlandish topics ever, or needlessly complaining. Boy, do people sure love to complain. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a little complaining as long as the criticism is actually constructive and unbiased but most of the time that’s not the case.

When ever I actually get an idea for something that would make for great discussion I almost never make a thread about. Either very few people will post or the topic will go in a new direction altogether. Now I rarely bother making threads unless I want a question answered.

Note: I’m talking about most forums in general not just the Drome.

As for the documentary, I’m not surprised at all. That’s what happens when you rely on people online. Unless its from someone your know you rarely get any help. In the end I guess I have little right to complain about people being so cold and lazy. I have all the free time in the world but no motivation to help whatsoever to help your cause.

[Hero]

I see what you're saying there, Zarius. I'd like to see more organised and structured TMNT fan projects myself.

You look at Transformers. Transformers long before the home internet fully expanded had a torrent of printed page fanzines (Surely you've heard of Transmasters UK) and some of those zines are still going today (Check out the UK sector at the-hub.co.uk). Nowadays, new ventures like Transformers: Mosiac are so well done, collaborated on and succesful that even IDW aparentley want to print a few of the simple one page strips. These being kept simple without dare I say it the complicated clutter of OC agendas somewhat being imposed uneasily on a spectator.

I've met so many UK based Transformers fans through the fandom, been a Transmaster for 13 years, was TMUK Member of the Year in 1998, ran a fanzine and heck even co-ran a European Botcon and these were great times that continue because people were motivated to create, meet and collaborate. Transmasters itself also have American and Japanese sectors.

My aspiration one day that TMNT fandom can acheive as much, because there is a lot of potential.

[turkishproverb]

Heck, TF Fandom gave us Don Figura. TMNT fandom should be so lucky to produce someone that goes into the mainstream like that...

Actually, we DO need fan projects. Tons of 'em. A professional, constantly moving and worldly fandom beats the hell out of nerds talking about the same topics day in, day out, regardless of the improved conversations. That's a component, but not what will help the bigger wheels work

You know things are bleak for this franchise when the Power Rangers fandom has more controversy, fan projects, group activity, and podcasts than any portion of TMNT combined. From what I've seen of the strides fans have made in the fan communities also for He-Man, Transformers, and more for "Mosiac" test runs for comic writers, and commentaries for DVDs...I don't beleive this "people don't have the time" bunk, people in this fandom are just lazy. This is a fact.

The documentary is the first true pulse I've seen from fans in years and it's a route we need to encourage.

I'm not saying we should write Of Mice and Mayhem of course. God help us.

Ok I'm going to be nice about this

1: PR fandom HAS alot of controversy, down to the porn thing and series styles. Turtles has less by virtue of less material, no translation issues, etc...
2: Turtles fandom is easily smaller than TF fandom and probably a good deal smaller than PR fandom
3: There are a couple amazing fan projects even so (Turncoat, anyone?)
4: Some of us just don't have the means to do the types of projects we'd want. I'd love to do a few fanfilms, but I don't have the resources. I am working on fanscripts though. And illustrated work, although I do hate my own stuff there...


Truth is, though, I agree with you. The fandom seems to have become, for various reasons sluggish, a bit apathetic, and fatalistic. It's like the way I get shrugged off or laughed at whenever I suggest a turtles-centric convention. THe fandom has given up in alot of ways. I find it sad, honestly.

P.S.
5: What was the series with the traitor rangers and zord v zord bloodbath?

[Jester]

Maybe you would do better if ,rather than post that you want fan involvement, you told us what you want. I know I've done some TMNT related things, but I'm not sure if they are what anyone would want. In fact some time soon, I want to try my hand at doing a video where I rip off the OT voice cast, just to see if I can. :P

[Machias Banshee]

I'd love to take part in the 'local' projects.... I just never know what I can really contribute. Other people have a LOT more abilities with computers and junk. I'm on a limited budget of both time and money... (and having a face for radio doesn't help either... :P).

Being buried in NH doesn't help much either... everyone and their projects are all either way south or on the West Coast. :ohwell:


But in all reality, after a while, there's only so many topics you can think up about a single show before you start having repeats (or the sex-related threads, unfortunately). It's an inevitable part of being on the internet..

[Jester]

I almost forgot I was gonna try to do some sort of fan commentary either of the pilot, the first movie, or some of the best/worst of the old series.

[Wes]

Okay, I read through this thread and I still don't understand the point of it. Was something important removed from the first post that would have helped to clarify things?

I've never had this problem with a turtle sex thread, by the way -- so at least those make sense! As much sense as a turtle sex thread can make, anyway. ;)

[Vivi]

Maybe you would do better if ,rather than post that you want fan involvement, you told us what you want. I know I've done some TMNT related things, but I'm not sure if they are what anyone would want. In fact some time soon, I want to try my hand at doing a video where I rip off the OT voice cast, just to see if I can. :P

I completely agree with this. So are we thinking things like: fanfics, fancomics, fanzines, scripts, animations, podcasts, a tmnt museum, docos and gatherings? I'm sure there a bunch of other things. The next questions are: who, what, where- actually starting these endeavours is half the work.

A lot of group activities can be logistical nightmares (well, I'm in Australia), but by the power of greysku...er, the internet, I would happily chip in to make a more prominent fan base.
I don't thinks it's a lack of love, just a lack of focus. I would never belittle anyone's thoughts or threads on the TMNT if they are positive ones, it only creates upset and anger. It seems we just need to make like a river and channel.

[turkishproverb]

The internet's been around awhile, turtles fandom is still a confused mass. We really need more effort, and a little bit of optimism.

[Raven]

Fandoms always have there ups and downs, but yeah when it comes to getting involved it seems that people to easily just wave the white flag.

I know I have dealt with this heavily with working with UNT, Im lucky we got the people we did to help out on it!

As of the people who have been trying to get a group comic going for years, I can speak about how very few take notice or seem to care. But that might just be me. These things are out there!

We finally got the comic hosted this year by a site instead of posting the pages on a thread, it was very disorginzed. Thanks again to Krang for helping us out there!

http://www.thetechnodrome.com/UltimateNinjaTurtles/index.php

If some of you really want to help, heres another avenue. We have had this going for years, its a Ultimate Fan take of the Ninja Turtles being worked on by SpawnGuy and myself for the last two years. We could always use more artists, even if its a pin up or just one page.


Hell, even look at TigerFogs Manga. The guy does all of it by himself, and see how he keeps a small part of the fandom engaged!

[Ninjinister]

I don't recall being told that I had to do something when I became a fan 22 years ago.

[ZariusTwo]

3: There are a couple amazing fan projects even so (Turncoat, anyone?)

Meh. I think it's overrated. A great plus for the fandom and Tony's art is second to none, but it's not true to the original series at all and I'd rather read something that is. However, Tony does that out of his own free time

5: What was the series with the traitor rangers and zord v zord bloodbath?

That would be SPD.

I've never had this problem with a turtle sex thread, by the way -- so at least those make sense! As much sense as a turtle sex thread can make, anyway. ;)

The first post was taken from the "Which Turtle would date Venus" thread where I argued fans were stupid, complaicent, lazy, and sexually intimidated if there frequently busy with threads like this.

[turkishproverb]

Meh. I think it's overrated. A great plus for the fandom and Tony's art is second to none, but it's not true to the original series at all and I'd rather read something that is. However, Tony does that out of his own free time

Still really good, and I've seen alot of fan projects that weren't true to the origionals, esp when you already have a multiple continuity situation. Still, I can understand your opinion.

How about the Fandub of the original Japanese ovas?


The real problem is these projects are relatively few and far between. And none of them are very ambitious.

That would be SPD.

Thanks. I always thought that was a cool subplot.

[Hero]

Speaking of which, I have a simple project in the works that I think that everyone can easily have a stab at. It's a little something under a working title: Project Unity that I hope that fans who create and/or spectate will both really enjoy.

More on it later, when I've got more important RL stuff dealt with and the particulars ironed out.

Heck, TF Fandom gave us Don Figura. TMNT fandom should be so lucky to produce someone that goes into the mainstream like that...

Lets not forget Nick Roache and Jack Lawrence too. :)

[TwinbeeMkII]

Please excuse my posting in this thread. I'm not the most involved member of this forum or community even, but as a hardcore TMNT fan for 22 years, I feel I have to contribute something to this thread.

Others have somewhat voiced some of my feelings on this matter, but I feel the need to give my own take on all of this, so excuse me if I hurt any feelings, but I have to be honest.

Being part of a great many fandoms, I've seen great things accomplished, due only to peoples' love of something. Be it art, entertaintment, or what have you, they produce great works all due to one thing, love. Love of something leads to creativity. What DOESN'T lead to creativity is the idea someone HAS to produce something tangable to be considered a fan. That's not only narrowminded, it's abit insulting. What's also pretty insulting is taking any fans who for whatever reasons can't or won't contribute to a certain project or whatever, and labeling them all horny degenerate losers. TMNT is a product. Granted a product made from the effort and enjoyment of 2 struggling artists, but it's a product, as as such it was ment to make money. Now I'm not saying it's not ment to be enjoyed, quite the opposite, but as long as these fans give money to those creators and keep this franchise alive, I think they're already doing their fair share in helping the community. Yes there will be the occasional questionable member, but every fandom since the beginning of fandoms has always had that, and they always will. The best way to overcome those people is to be the bigger person. Ask people nicely if they'd like to help. Inspire them with whatever means you may have. You can't make something, expect help out of the blue, then attack others simply cause they may not have the means or talent to contribute what may be needed for said project. I may not post much to this forum, but I read. I see many good kind people, and I kow this is a good fandom. What I don't enjoy is seeing those who feel it's their god given right to expect things from others when they've done nothing to earn that right. I say this to this forum, as I would even say to Peter and Kevin themselves. As long as these people love and remain with this fandom, they already do enough to earn the label 'fan'. As fans, they deserve the same respect given to any other fan.

I'm sorry this rant went on so long, but I had to give my feedback on something I've been seeing far too much of. Yes some things can damage a fandom, but in my eyes the most damaging is elitism. You're fans of a franchise, not the owner or creator. Enjoy contributions, don't force or order them, otherwise THAT will be what kills this franchise. Thank you for your time.

[ZariusTwo]

Still really good, and I've seen alot of fan projects that weren't true to the origionals.

True, there's projects that really need to take a good hard look at what there based on, but "Turncoat" is everything you DON'T do. It's gotten better, but the reason I gave up on it's story was that it was being deep for the sake of it. The original series developed into a darker, deeper series organicly, not losing it's charm or it's humour

I remember when Tony listened to some fan concerns that he was "indulging" in Rule 34 with aspects of "Turtle Turncoat", dedicating whole pages to Shredder acting perverted, torturing April O'Neil in a bikini. Thank god that's stopped...even if I still don't agree with what he's done in that title, I can't fault him for art. He ought to be hired and mentored more by MIRAGE

How about the Fandub of the original Japanese ovas?

I love them. There more examples of where to go. Those guys have opened a door for themselves.

[ZariusTwo]

Being part of a great many fandoms, I've seen great things accomplished, due only to peoples' love of something. Be it art, entertaintment, or what have you, they produce great works all due to one thing, love. Love of something leads to creativity. What DOESN'T lead to creativity is the idea someone HAS to produce something tangable to be considered a fan. That's not only narrowminded, it's abit insulting.

It's not narrow-minded at all, it's called a realist's point of view, an opinion brought upon by years of paitence with these people and finding nothing to show for the "indulgence"

Now I'm not saying it's not ment to be enjoyed, quite the opposite, but as long as these fans give money to those creators and keep this franchise alive, I think they're already doing their fair share in helping the community.

Really? And berating the comic's artist and it's writer for his poilitics despite paying money for the privelege of reading is HELPING anybody? Get off the high horse of fan neopotism and see the damage from a realist's point of view. These are the hallmarks of true elitists. Spoiled little pigs with no mind of their own and a fashionable consensus to take what they pay for for granted, to berate fresh ideas because it isnt what they were raised on, frightened of change, thinking there bigger than those that try to make a living based on their properties.

What I don't enjoy is seeing those who feel it's their god given right to expect things from others when they've done nothing to earn that right. I say this to this forum, as I would even say to Peter and Kevin themselves. As long as these people love and remain with this fandom, they already do enough to earn the label 'fan'. As fans, they deserve the same respect given to any other fan.

No. They don't. They REALLY don't, and if you had a grasp on what's been going on beyond the forum, you'd know precisly why.

I'm sorry this rant went on so long, but I had to give my feedback on something I've been seeing far too much of. Yes some things can damage a fandom, but in my eyes the most damaging is elitism

I've seen tons of succesful fandoms that get by just fine BASED on an elitist structure (Doctor Who). People fall in line a little more easily and you cut corners and remove those causing trouble or embarrasing anyone. Elitism has HELPED communities I've been a part of. If someone trips up, give them a nudge, make them want to accomplish something, help them improve as a writer or an artist, or a participant in something larger.

But if it's obvious that moments where everyone needs to band together isnt going to happen because, LORD help us, we got to discuss the size of Leonardo's PINGAS...then no, we're not letting them get away with it anymore. They've had thier chance, what you propose has been tried. They blew it. They FAILED.

Not having a structure like that leads to the threads and content we're trying to lighten the load of for a change instead of indulging.

You're fans of a franchise, not the owner or creator. Enjoy contributions, don't force or order them, otherwise THAT will be what kills this franchise.

The franchise was killed by everything you claim wouldnt kill it. This is all we're going to get if we follow this advise:

Qgf3G5IdihM

Your way has been indulged long enough. Everyone has their breaking point, and I think with a franchise about to face it's second period of inactivity with minimal signs of life, those who know what CAUSED it get a chance to vent and lead the charge

Don't want to get on board? I can't persuade you, I can't persuade those who don't listen, but those that do want change, not what's come before...there hungry for a difference

[TwinbeeMkII]

Ever consider that attitude is what's killing the franchise? An outsider looks at the fandom, sees people on high horses, bullying and cursing people, and they may stop and think "Well if that what that fandom is like, no wonder it's going down the tubes" and procede to abandon any attempt to join in. Are projects good for the franchise? Sure. Anything that reflects well can only help things. Yet I said anything that reflects WELL, meaning do we wish to be seen as fans, or as bullys and arrogant snobs? You can't force people to think a certain way. Also, it seems as though you praise anything you're part of, yet feel free to look down on any other contributions. So which is this..an attempt to revitalize the franchise, or just a way to stroke your own ego? As for the lack of assistance, ever hear the old saying you attract more flies with honey then you do with vinager? If you push, scream, and bully people, of course they won't want anything to do with you. Give them a reason to want to be included. Just yelling "Join my project or you suck!" won't get you anywhere. Creativity stems from love of something, not having an obligation to do it. Would you rather this be a fandom, or a meaningless job for people? I myself have long wanted to do projects of my own in fandoms , but it's also attitudes such as yours that turn me away. Narrow sighted and cold responses are no incintive to give to the community. I can understand why few come forth. Who would want to give to people who would hate and spit on you? I'm not saying become lax and give up attempts to raise yourself up. Just don't stand tall by stepping on everyone else in the process.

[Leo656]

As the world's biggest Hulkamaniac, I suddenly feel like slapping someone, but I'm not sure exactly who...

...BROTHER.

[Kendamu]

I don't recall being told that I had to do something when I became a fan 22 years ago.
Me neither, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try.

[Wes]

I still think this thread is pointless. The franchise isn't being killed by a lack of fan involvement -- if anything, it's being impacted by a lack of impressive and/or affordable merchandise and media. Transformers isn't kept aloft by the fandom; it's kept aloft by fairly cool toys and, recently, a terrible movie that was nevertheless beloved by much of the viewing public. Doctor Who endures because it's a freaking cultural staple in the UK. Character Options is also putting out some pretty darned toys that are consistently improving. Can fans help to support a franchise? Absolutely. But if you think that everyone calling him/herself a fan of these other media is actively contributing to fandoms via extensive creative works that promote the franchises -- or that the fans are primarily responsible for the success of the franchises -- you're quite mistaken.

Now, I've written reviews and (hopefully) humorous articles, made toy comics, and done other creative things related to TMNT (as well as Doctor Who and Transformers and a whole host of other things; just check out my site (http://www.scary-crayon.com/)), but it wasn't to fulfill my duty as a fan or even to benefit the fandom -- whatever that means. It certainly wasn't because anyone got pissed off and called me names "to get my butt in gear." I did it because I like the TMNT and because they were an enjoyable part of my childhood. But I don't feel like I have to prove that to anyone or earn my place in the fandom. If I were banned from the threads right now, or of someone here called me a TMNT poser, I would totally not be offended. This is a hobby, guys -- not a responsibility.

Still, many of the folks in this thread would probably argue that I haven't done enough. And to those folks, I say, Pay me. Please. I could use the money, and I'll turn out some awesome stuff.

That goes for any Playmates HR folks lurking on the thread as well, btw -- it's always been a dream of mine to write profile cards on the backs of action figures. ;)

[turkishproverb]

Erm, part of the return of the TF's popularity was the fact hasbro was so respectful of the existing fanbase. They represent a dispraportionate (though not majority) purchase share.

And DW came back largely because RTD was a big fan.

[ZariusTwo]

Exactly. Doctor Who was only brought back because Russel T Davies was Britain's most prolific writer in recent years. He even admits that the Eccelston series was intended to be a one-off project

Torchwood was always going to be created with or without the support of DW, it was originally called "Excalibur"

[Ninjinister]

Me neither, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try.

Oh, I already am doing something (http://www.ikillpeopleformoney.com)... it's just the fact that it sounds like everyone on the board are being labeled as slackers just because they don't. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hero]

Doing something too. Something I like to currentley call Project: Unity (Working title).

I am hoping it will be good, but if it isn't I will have had a blast giving this venture a go.

===HERO

[Ninjinister]

See, that's my point. Fans should do things because they want to, not because they're being bullied into it.

[ZariusTwo]

People are only "bullied" into things if they assume that motivation in any way that isnt limited to "please" is "bullying"

[turkishproverb]

There's some gray area, but bullying someone into something does exist Zarius. Even just by arguing they're not doing enough.

Exactly. Doctor Who was only brought back because Russel T Davies was Britain's most prolific writer in recent years. He even admits that the Eccelston series was intended to be a one-off project

Torchwood was always going to be created with or without the support of DW, it was originally called "Excalibur"

Actually, he said he expected it to be a one off thing. Not he had intended it. Though he also hadn't planned to stay on for 5 years if it stayed...

[Kendamu]

Oh, I already am doing something (http://www.ikillpeopleformoney.com)... it's just the fact that it sounds like everyone on the board are being labeled as slackers just because they don't. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Being labelled by a few people on the Internet. Big deal.

[Doc_ock_4mugen]

ok... So Zarius is like William Regal and wants to destroy the Hulkster... I mean the TMNT, because we're fans, and buy TMNT products?

Dude, chill! Have a slice of pizza and ignore the topics that you're not interested.

About the TMNT and Kids... Sure there MIGHT be kids prowling the forums, but I'm pretty sure that the Original TMNT was NOT for children...

There are some crazy, weird, WTF!? topics, but its the internet... They will always show up. If you don't like them, don't *Female dog* & Moan about them.

Also, how do you expect people to help you when you call them idiots, morons, stupid, or any other insult? Why MUST we help you, since we're a bunch of immature idiots, who want know which turtle Venus should bang. Think about it.

Here's a reality of life buster: You don't DESERVE TMNT with the kind of crap you talk about. This is the kind of attitude that won't get you volunteers to help you in your "project".
Here's my opinion on what's killing the franchise:
-Comics: Poor Distribution.(Yes I know that TMNT is not under one of the Big 2, so distribution might be a bit sketchy...) In my 26 years of age. I've only seen ONE TMNT Comicbook and it was because it was bought on the US. (I've been going to ComicBook shops since 1990.) Once again Puerto Rico gets the shaft on stuff that I like... We need a Volume 1 Trade (Hard or soft cover...) then followed by the other volumes. The comic isn't as widely known as the cartoons.

-Cartoons: The 2k3 cartoon WAS one of the best things I've seen, up until Fast Forward... I tried to like it, but I felt that the show lost its soul. Back to The sewers seemed like a glimmer of hope, until they went Cyber-divers... Yet I still have a soft spot for the 80s toon... Heck I grew up with it...

-Videogames: Konami's beat-em' up formula had gone stale with the 2k3 TMNT games... (So far the only good reason in my mind to buy them was the ports of the Arcade old toon TMNT games...)

-Toys:Well the 80s toys were ahead of its time in terms of poseability and sculpt... some of the figures were rather gross/grotesque later along the line (especially the non-turtle characters) Around the time of the 2k3 toon new turtles were released, but I wasn't interested in them. (Mostly because Marvel Legends had spoiled me in terms of sculpt and Articulation.) also the sudden release of what I call WTF variants, helped me kill ALL interest on the toys. NECA was the only glimmer of hope for my Turtle Toy cravings, and now that's in danger... Playmates NEEDS to step up for me to buy their TMNT product.

-Movies: Well We've got four movies and out of those I only Like the first two... To me III never happened, just like Batman and Robin... The CGI TMNT was ok, but I'm not into that art style... I like my humans looking like humans... not stick figures with weird polygonal faces. I'd kill to see a Live Action TMNT movie closer to the Mirage comics... (Yes I know that the 1st one was kinda closed, but it was more of an amalgam of Mirage and Old Toon...)

The franchise itself is depending a lot more on the spin-off products than the source material... and most of what it is depending off is coming to an end.

Now is This ok to ask on a TMNT sex related topic:
Are the TMNT Female because of the shape of their plastron?

[Spitfire]

You guys need to relax. You can "think" your doing things for the fandom but in reality anything do makes no dent at all. You might be doing things for fans but that doesn't make a dent in how turtles is doing outside the fan community.

The comic could still fail at any point, the TV series is ending no matter what we do, the "new" movie isn't even conceived yet, and the toyline, while still around, is nothing short of a mess at the moment. I love the new game it looks great but it's in the style of the new movie and the past turtles game have given me little faith in anyone's ability, all stars or not, to produce a decent turtles game.

I've learned the best way to deal with this franchise is be pessimistic. I do like I do with movies in a sense. I expect nothing is ever going to happen even if it's announced and that way I don't get too excited for any one thing. The guys who work on turtles are all great guys but business isn't nice or friendly. The way the economy is makes it hard to do anything now a days and turtles is almost completely self funded. Everyone needs funding to do something and that's getting hard to pull off.

[ZariusTwo]

ok... So Zarius is like William Regal and wants to destroy the Hulkster...

Moral of every story ever.

Dude, chill! Have a slice of pizza and ignore the topics that you're not interested.

That isnt the point

There are some crazy, weird, WTF!? topics, but its the internet... They will always show up. If you don't like them, don't *Female dog* & Moan about them.

I'm not even going to waste my time on this one, you don't "get" my point and obviously didnt read the thread at all.

This is the kind of attitude that won't get you volunteers to help you in your "project".

This is the kind of attitude that provokes threads like this

[Doc_ock_4mugen]

That isnt the point
But it is still good advice. Chill. Ignore the "moronic" posts. Post constructive stuff.

I'm not even going to waste my time on this one, you don't "get" my point and obviously didnt read the thread at all. You're the one ranting about how people spend more time arguing about who should bang venus or any other topic that you deem unworthy, instead of more constructive topics (By that I mean helping on your project.). You made a big fuzz about them when you could've just ignored them. You could write more engaging topics, but instead you're going on and on about the stupidity of TMNT fans... (The very same people that you're demanding their help for your project.) and how they need a kick in the balls.
All of your complaining about the topics will not make them go away... They will always come back... for some strange reason, people have an unorthodox curiosity about the sexuality of fictional characters.

This is the kind of attitude that provokes threads like this You're the one who said:
YOU Don't deserve TMNT... to another poster. What the Hell does one person have to do to DESERVE TMNT!? Why would people want to help you if all you do is insult anyone who has a view that is different from yours!?
Can't you engage the posters intellectually without resorting to insults!?
---------
HULK STILL RULES!
HULKAMANIA FOREVER!!

[Raven]

I think personally the actual property has to be a self motivating force itself. Right now whats there to be excited about? Unless your a hard core fan who spends every waking moment thinking of the Turtles without anything new to stimulate your sences, whats the point?

I remember back when the movie was coming out we saw a surge of new memebers appearing, even when the 2k3 show started we saw a bunch of new people coming in (heh, I would be one of them)

The franshice itself has to produce some sort of motivation, and right now with everything slowly going away I can tell the fans are tired as well.

So, personally I think a reboot in the turtles to get people excited again would be a very helpfull thing. Other wise who normally cares? We all have lives outside of the fandom, dont we?

[turkishproverb]

Ok, can we draw a truce on debating Zarius methods for a minute?

I'm actually curious, what Fandom unifying events have people tried in the last few years?

[Wes]

And DW came back largely because RTD was a big fan.
I wasn't talking about why it came back, but rather why it's still going strong (or at least I think it's still going strong). It's certainly not the quality of the episodes itself that keeps it going, since they're kinda awful -- or fluff, at best. But let's not get me talking about how the classic episodes are superior to the new ones in terms of just about everything except special effects... ;)

Anyway, I think I misunderstood Z2's whole point. I was under the impression that he was arguing that TMNT is failing as a franchise because the fans aren't engaged enough, but now I think he's upset because -- whether the property survives or not -- TMNT fans aren't as energized as other fandoms in terms of creative output. Is that fair, Z2?

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I think the fan projects are some of the most interesting things to read about on here. I enjoy the various fan comics people come up with, and I think a documentary should be interesting to watch. I like that one that was made a few years back, in Canada I think, featuring the different Ninja Turtles fans, so I think one made by people enthusiastic about the Turtles should be even better.

I agree that it gets old reading nothing but people complaining all the time. Has the 25th anniversary been as amazing so far as a turtles fan would hope? Probably not, but at the same time it could be worse. The turtles could be even more obscure, and we could be getting even less. It's not wrong to want more, because I would like more too, but I think what we are getting is pretty good considering the turtles are not a franchise under one of the big two like Marvel and DC. During one interview at the New York Comic Con, someone mentioned Playmates using the same molds frequently because during a tough economy people need to be careful. I wonder if fans consider that with the current economy, maybe things are limited as far as what Mirage and others are capable of this year.

However, calling people morons is hardly "motivating".

What's this about Power Rangers and controversy? The only thing about Power Rangers that makes me think "controversial" was when parents complained that it was encouraging kids to beat people up.

[Doc_ock_4mugen]

The original Yellow Ranger was asian. The Original Black Ranger was black. They encouraged violence... that's all I remember about Power Rangers and controversy... if there is some more someone please elaborate...
The turtles can beat any power ranger... except Tommy.

[TristanHuwJones]

The turtles can beat any power ranger... except Tommy.

Yooooouuu may have just invoked the wrath of ZariusTwo... ;)

[ZariusTwo]

That's a perfectly fair assesment Wes. Thanks for cutting through the red tape.

What's this about Power Rangers and controversy? The only thing about Power Rangers that makes me think "controversial" was when parents complained that it was encouraging kids to beat people up.

-The original Yellow Ranger was in a scientology commercial

-Convicted murderer Skylar DeLeon was beleived to be a regular on the series, when he only had a small supporting role in one episode

-The fandom joked about running over the last producer with a semi whilst his children were reading the message boards.

-Jack Olesker (He-Man fans ought to know this guy very well) tried to swindle the fan community for ideas on how to reboot the series with an ameture Korean animation company claiming he was going to pitch them to Disney. Disney found out and he deleted all of his posts to avoid a major law-suit. Had this gone to court, PR would have no fandom prescience.

That said, at least their fanbase has fought tooth and nail for the following things

-Power Morphicon

-Major leauge interviews with cast and crew

-PR Fan Film homages and parodies like the upcoming "Celestial Fury" and "Emo Rangers". There's also a third fanfiction series which is a combination of Torchwood and PR.

-Fan Audios are a possibility.

[terran631]

Ok so, maybe doing my part to help the fandom in my little corner of the world. It's a ways off, but we're planning it now. October 15th is National Martial Arts Day in the US and my dojo is planning a demonstration. I've had the idea (and my students are really getting into the idea) to make it Ninja Turtle themed. Our demonstration will have our demo students dressed as the turtles, Shredder and some random Foot Soldiers.

I have some old Archie and Mirage comics that I don't read anymore, and a couple of Old Series cartoon cells. I'm going to do a giveaway and hopefully get some new, young fans into the fandom. If nothing else, it'll be fun for my students and something different for the community.

[ZariusTwo]

That's the spirit.