Did you like the Nick show using old characters? [Archive]

Fishface

04-17-2017, 05:31 AM

I have very mixed opinions about this. While it is cool to see some semi obscure characters return into light and not fade off into obscurity, they haven't always done this right. An example of this would be the Neutrinos, sure they are a different take on the originals but they just are not to memorable and I kid you not but I thought they were just some army warriors and some Rock Soldier minions of General Traag. I also thought another theory that the Rock designs were just robotic suits and the real alien teenagers from the 80's who we all know and love but sadly we will never know since at this point it seems unlikely we will ever see them again, considering the fact that the show has not been renewed for a sixth season.

Another thing I am annoyed with is Mona Lisa. I find her annoyingly overrated, especially with the fan girls. I don't hate her but I find it annoying how she was only brought into the show because of fan service and she was very forced into the plot and her episodes were rushed (I still think The Evil of Dregg is the was one of the lowest of the 2012 series to date).

Honestly though, there are still many great 2012 reintroductions like Bebop, Rocksteady, Hun, Tatsu, Renet, Mondo Gecko, Slash, Wingnut, Screwloose, Armaggon, Rahzar, Triceratons, Scumbug, Antrax and Mutagen Man!

neatoman

04-17-2017, 09:07 AM

Depends on what the characters were and as far as I'm concerned they came in four varieties on a spectrum:

Pretty much the same as always: Splinter, Shredder, Turtles etc.
Relatively minor difference but recognisable: Rat King, Casey, Hun, Karai (Before snake powers)
Really different but still in the realm of recognisable: Bishop, Bebop, Rocksteady, Rahzar, April, Karai (After snake powers)
Why the hell not just make a new character to begin with?: Tokka, Neutrinos, Hothead, Wyrm.

That last really confused me, what's the point? The show clearly had no problem creating new characters, so why even bother? In Hothead's case he might as well even be Drako given how little he has to do with the original Hothead, his backstory and role even matches Drako a lot better than Hothead's.

Above that, it's pretty much a mixed bag, I don't like Karai's snake powers but I'm fine with the Rat King being a blind psychic and I have rather mixed feelings about Bishop basically being an amalgam of Bishop and Mortu. Hard to give a concrete opinion on such a broad subject.

DestronMirage22

04-17-2017, 10:49 AM

While overall it was cool seeing old/obscure characters get some modern-day representation, they didn't really pull them off good. A lot of them were in-name-only, lame, or just decent. They could've put more thought into them, and made them better.

Andrew NDB

04-17-2017, 11:05 AM

I don't care, really, but it does strike me as odd that what characters that would otherwise seem tailor-made for the show with their existing backstories mostly intact like Wingnut and Screwloose (refugees from a planet besieged by Krang) get completely changed (now they're... comic book characters given magical life?).

MikeandRaph87

04-17-2017, 11:06 AM

Vicky82

04-17-2017, 11:07 AM

I like them using Karai, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, Rahzar, Rocksteady and Bebop.

It did feel that there were too many characters in the show and it's because fans kept asking Ciro and Brandon to add these old characters.

Mona Lisa was one of these characters that fans were asking for and Ciro and Brandon listened to them but it end up a lot of people didn't like her and didn't like her relationship with Raph.

So if Brandon and Ciro didn't listen to fans then we wouldn't have seen these extra characters.

Andrew NDB

04-17-2017, 11:10 AM

I like them using Karai, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, Rahzar, Rocksteady and Bebop.

It did feel that there were too many characters in the show and it's because fans kept asking Ciro and Brandon to add these old characters.

Bebop and Rocksteady were always going to be there. It was pretty alarming to me the number of people on this board that were flabbergasted when they were announced.

Vicky82

04-17-2017, 11:19 AM

Bebop and Rocksteady were always going to be there. It was pretty alarming to me the number of people on this board that were flabbergasted when they were announced.

Read my post again

I like them using Karai, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, Rahzar, Rocksteady and Bebop.

It did feel that there were too many characters in the show and it's because fans kept asking Ciro and Brandon to add these old characters.

Mona Lisa was one of these characters that fans were asking for and Ciro and Brandon listened to them but it end up a lot of people didn't like her and didn't like her relationship with Raph.

So if Brandon and Ciro didn't listen to fans then we wouldn't have seen these extra characters.

I never said Bebop and Rocksteady, i'm talking about other old characters. Like Mona Lisa, Armaggon, Bishop, Wingnut and Screwloose ect. The only reason they were in this show is because fans kept asking for them and Brandon and Ciro listened to them.

FredWolfLeonardo

04-17-2017, 11:26 AM

I generally like most of the old characters reimagined, whether they are similar to the originals or completely different. I like Nick Bebop, Rocksteady, Razhar, Tokka, Mona Lisa, Mondo Gecko, Muckman, Lord Dregg, Wingnut, Screwloose, Metalhead, Slash and Pigeon Pete.

The only types of characters I didn't like were the ones that had been firmly established in previous versions and then were nothing like the originals in the Nick show. These include Hun, Bishop and the worst offenders, the Neutrinos.

While characters like Razhar, Tokka, Slash and Pigeon Pete were also guilty of not being faithful to the originals, they weren't firmly established in the originals so it felt more natural for Nick to use them, hence why I like their reimaginings.

Characters like the Neutrinos on the other hand were very well established in their show and they left an Impression on the tmnt fandom, who would always associate the name with the characters portrayed in the FW toon. Using that name in the Nick toon for something completely unrelated felt very off, as did calling Nicks version of Mortu "Bishop" and just placing the Hun label on Bruce Lee.

Andrew NDB

04-17-2017, 11:28 AM

Rocksteady and Bebop.

I never said Bebop and Rocksteady, i'm talking about other old characters.

?

Like Mona Lisa, Armaggon, Bishop, Wingnut and Screwloose ect. The only reason they were in this show is because fans kept asking for them and Brandon and Ciro listened to them.

That's not true either. Concept art from before the show began:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/1/10/Wingnut_%262.jpg

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 11:40 AM

The only types of characters I didn't like were the ones that had been firmly established in previous versions and then were nothing like the originals in the Nick show. These include Hun, Bishop and the worst offenders, the Neutrinos.

What on earth? Nick's Bishop is very close to 4kids Bishop, only difference is he's an Utrom, which is a nod toward Utrom Shredder in 4kids. His design is nearly identical, runs the EPF, still fights the same way, etc. Nick's Bishop is perfect for their story.

Vicky82

04-17-2017, 11:48 AM

?

That's not true either. Concept art from before the show began:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/1/10/Wingnut_%262.jpg

Obviously your still confused of what I said

I like Nick using old Characters like Rocksteady and Bebop, Karai, Leatherhead, Rahzar and Rat King.

But it did feel there were too many other old characters that shouldn't have been in this show and the only reason they were in this show is because Ciro and Brandon listened to fans.

I expect there were a lot of concept art on characters they did and decided not to use them

Wingnut and Screwloose didn't get used until season 4 and i've seen plenty of people asking Ciro and Brandon to add them in to this show and that's including Mona Lisa, Bishop and Armaggon.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

04-17-2017, 11:51 AM

Some felt forced for nostalgic reasons, like the Neutrinos and Wingnut and Screwloose. But others, like Bebop, Rocksteady, Armaggon and Tatsu, are OK.

Vicky82

04-17-2017, 11:52 AM

What on earth? Nick's Bishop is very close to 4kids Bishop, only difference is he's an Utrom, which is a nod toward Utrom Shredder in 4kids. His design is nearly identical, runs the EPF, still fights the same way, etc. Nick's Bishop is perfect for their story.

Nick Bishop was never like 2k3 Bishop

Nick Bishop is an alien wasn't an evil villain
2k3 Bishop is a human and was an evil villain, who liked to experiment and dissect things.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 11:53 AM

I voted 'no' because of how the characters were used. Old character in name only was much more common than using old characters. Its a main reason I prefer IDW to the Nicktoon. Would I want to see these characters again beyond in name only? Yes,definitely!

You claim Nick's characters are in "name only." Yet the vast majority of IDW used old characters are in "name only" as well. I don't understand your double standards.

In IDW:

- Krang is now an actual Utrom, instead of a disembodied brain from Dimension X. Now he's trying to rebuild his Utrom.

- Bebop/Rocksteady have superhuman strength and regeneration powers

- Rat King is an immortal God part of the Pantheon, and IDW's design for him looks vastly different than all previous Rat Kings

- Hun is now Casey's father

- Karai is Shredder's great+ granddaughter

- Slash is now a huge hulking character and ally of the Turtles rather than the maniac he was known for prior to 2011

- Fugitoid is a Neutrino

- The Triceratons were now mutated on Earth, instead of a natural born alien race

- Mutagen Man, Man Ray, Mondo Gecko, etc. now have new/different origins than what they're initially known for

And the biggest of all:

- The Turtles are now reincarnated humans from Feudal Japan!!!!!

etc.

I could go on and on. But I don't understand these bizarre double standards when all the IDW incarnations of the characters are also new or updated. You can say the "name only" thing here as well, which puts into perspective how ridiculous this argument is. Of course everyone is going to update characters.

victory_angel

04-17-2017, 12:08 PM

Nick Bishop is an alien wasn't an evil villain
2k3 Bishop is a human and was an evil villain, who liked to experiment and dissect things.

I wouldn't call Bishop evil. More like a dark shade of moral gray since everything he did in the show proper was do things that he felt were for a greater good. And the Turtles were just expendable resource that he felt could be sacrificed for the protection of the earth.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 12:10 PM

Nick Bishop was never like 2k3 Bishop

Nick Bishop is an alien wasn't an evil villain
2k3 Bishop is a human and was an evil villain, who liked to experiment and dissect things.

Bishop was never evil in 4kids, he was always trying to save or protect the Earth from aliens or mutants. He just had shades of gray and was ambiguous because he thought his cause was just. He formed an alliance with the Turtles by Season 4, worked with them in Season 5 to stop Demon Shredder, and we know he becomes President of Earth in the future.

ToTheNines

04-17-2017, 12:14 PM

Cybercubed does not understand nuance. Only loyalty.

Vicky82

04-17-2017, 12:18 PM

He still did bad things though.

He did turn a human into a monster in Dragon's Brew.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 12:20 PM

He still did bad things though.

He did turn a human into a monster in Dragon's Brew.

Bishop is what we call, "shades of gray." He believes what he is doing is for the greater good, even if he sometimes did shady or unjust things. He was always trying to save humanity from mutants or aliens though. Same reason he tries to stop Shredder (both Ch'rell in Season 3 and then Demon Shredder)

PApagreg

04-17-2017, 12:35 PM

Bishop is what we call, "shades of gray." He believes what he is doing is for the greater good, even if he sometimes did shady or unjust things. He was always trying to save humanity from mutants or aliens though. Same reason he tries to stop Shredder (both Ch'rell in Season 3 and then Demon Shredder)

Basically 2k3 Bishop is lawful neutral on good days and lawful evil on bad days, unfortunately we see more of his bad days in the 2k3 series.

On topic, my main problem with the Nick show using old characters is that they don't really do anything with them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting much out of characters like the Punk Frogs and Bellybomb but when you have major players like Hun and Bishop and put them in the background, then maybe you should't have used them at all.

neatoman

04-17-2017, 12:47 PM

You claim Nick's characters are in "name only." Yet the vast majority of IDW used old characters are in "name only" as well. I don't understand your double standards.

In IDW:

- Krang is now an actual Utrom, instead of a disembodied brain from Dimension X. Now he's trying to rebuild his Utrom.

- Bebop/Rocksteady have superhuman strength and regeneration powers

- Rat King is an immortal God part of the Pantheon, and IDW's design for him looks vastly different than all previous Rat Kings

- Hun is now Casey's father

- Karai is Shredder's great+ granddaughter

- Slash is now a huge hulking character and ally of the Turtles rather than the maniac he was known for prior to 2011

- Fugitoid is a Neutrino

- The Triceratons were now mutated on Earth, instead of a natural born alien race

- Mutagen Man, Man Ray, Mondo Gecko, etc. now have new/different origins than what they're initially known for

And the biggest of all:

- The Turtles are now reincarnated humans from Feudal Japan!!!!!

etc.

I could go on and on. But I don't understand these bizarre double standards when all the IDW incarnations of the characters are also new or updated. You can say the "name only" thing here as well, which puts into perspective how ridiculous this argument is. Of course everyone is going to update characters.

Because Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, Slash, Mutagen Man, Mondo and Ray were all garbage and in desperate need of reinvention.http://orig09.deviantart.net/a520/f/2010/140/d/1/trollface_1_by_trollfaceplz.gif

Alright, alright... Let's take this seriously and go over them one by one:

Krang: Easy to explain, the disembodied brain origin just creates problems when the actual Utroms also run around. It's just a no-brainer of a compromise.

Bebop/Rocksteady: The IDW Bebop and Rocksteady are pretty much the revisionist lie a lot of people seem to have told themselves, nobody wants Bebop and Rocksteady as they were in the show because that's not what people want to remember. Besides, it's not like it would have worked with the tone anyway.

Rat King: Isn't it just building on the Pantheon stuff from Mirage? From what I understand the original version of that concept never really went anywhere, so why not expand on it.

Hun: Hun being Casey's father doesn't change his personality or position, it just changes the nature of his relationship with Casey. And it's arguable the "you killed my father" narrative is a little too much of an old cliché.

Karai: Pretty minor change from the 4Kids show.

Slash: Did anyone want the "Deviantart Sonic fandom" school's version of a TMNT character with the added quirk being an obsession with palm trees? I don't think so.

Fugitoid: Still a humanoid alien trapped in a robotic service robot, he's effectively the same character. Why neutrino specifically though? I guess because a seemingly human scientist on alien world seems kind of strange.

Triceratons: A similar reason to the Fugitoid and Krang I guess. It pretty much just explains why they look like an extinct earth animals rather than leave it a mystery.

Mutagen Man: Technically, it is the origin Peter Laird intended for the character, and the old origin relies on the mutagen just doing whatever the plot calls for regardless of established facts.

Man Ray: ... Man Ray sucked... He had no personality outside of "Don't throw stuff into the ocean!" and his origin was just that he used to be a guy working at an aquarium before being hit with mutagen.

Mondo: Which origin are you talking about? The one where he was a gecko bought alongside the Turtles and raised by a random criminal, or the one where he was a teenager playing a guitar in the sewer? His origin wasn't even consistant in the first place.

The Turtles: ... Alright, that's actually kind of a big and somewhat important change since it deviates from every other version, but it doesn't really change their personalities or what they are. The rationale behind it (I think) is that it makes the mystical stuff seem more like it's part of the central theme from the start, where as in the other versions it just seemed to come out of nowhere when the time came for it.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 01:12 PM

That's what I mean, neatoman, all the characters were updated to fit into IDW's writing over a children's cartoon show. And that's fine, their original incarnations fit the Fred Wolf show, and the IDW versions fit their universe. But they're all still updated/changed, similar to what Nick or 4kids did, etc.

but when you have major players like Hun and Bishop and put them in the background, then maybe you should't have used them at all.

Bishop's been in quite a few episodes and he's going to appear again in the upcoming Newtralizer/Mona Lisa ep.

ToTheNines

04-17-2017, 01:21 PM

What neatoman is saying is that IDW integrated them into the narrative organically and made them even better.

Nick was just all "Memba Bishop?" "I memba!" "Memba the Neutrinos though?"

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

04-17-2017, 01:22 PM

What neatoman is saying is that IDW integrated them into the narrative organically and made them even better.

Nick was just all "Memba Bishop?" "I memba!" "Memba the Neutrinos though?"

Now you're the one tilting at Cubedmills. :tlol:

ToTheNines

04-17-2017, 01:24 PM

He's got a brain in there somewhere.

sdp

04-17-2017, 01:36 PM

Like I mentioned on another thread it's a matter of variation and deviation. I think the Nick show deviates too much that yeah they might as well not have brought them back. I haven't read IDW yet but most of those I feel are variations rather than deviations though some really are bad choices like Triceratons being mutated but maybe it works Stuff like Bishop being an Utrom seems fine by me as well.

Sometimes the personality might be ok but if the character design looks nothing like the original character why use that for that specific character? If it's a character that had a boring design then it can be fine as long as it has some redeeming features. Mona Lisa having a totally different story works fine since she was such a minor character but others it doesn't, it's really on a case by case basis.

Did I like Nick bringing characters back?

Yes and no. I want to see characters brought back in new incarnations of the turtles, when you have such a rich cast of characters, they need to be used but I also like seeing new characters, there needs to be a balance. And if an old character is brought back then they should resemble somewhat the original characters, some changes are fine but you have to be aware.

ToTheNines

04-17-2017, 01:40 PM

While we're on the subject... why the hell wasn't Zeno just Traximus? Swing and a miss there.

Also why Zanmoran instead of Zanramon?

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 02:04 PM

Bishop has been handled just fine in the Nick cartoon. I enjoyed all his appearances so far, and looking forward to his Season 5 episode.

I also find it bizarre people are saying some characters only have a few episodes in the Nick cartoon, when the original cartoon, 4kids series, even Archie also only gave some characters a small handful of appearances.

Shredder and whoever his henchmen are are always the ones who get the most screentime each series. In 4kids Hun was Shredder's second in command, so he got the most screentime alongside Karai and Baxter. In Nick, Tiger Claw, Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop/Rocksteady and Baxter get the most appearances, since they work for him. All the other characters were always just one off or short lived characters in every series.

Slash has more appearances in the Nick cartoon than the original show or Archie, and Leatherhead has probably appeared the same amount of episodes as the 4kids version. Rat King also got 3 episodes in Nick, whereas in 4kids he only got 1 measly episode.

Double standards.

PApagreg

04-17-2017, 02:24 PM

Bishop has been handled just fine in the Nick cartoon. I enjoyed all his appearances so far, and looking forward to his Season 5 episode.

Well different strokes I guess because to me Bishop hasn't really been handled in a fine way. The dude was a major player in the 2k3 series and is probably going to be a major one in the IDW series but here he feels like an afterthought, hell even in the episodes he appears in, he feels more like a secondary character. Compare this to the 2k3 version where not only he appears in more episodes but he also gets his own pov, he actually feels like a big part of the TMNT world.

.

Shredder and whoever his henchmen are are always the ones who get the most screentime each series. In 4kids Hun was Shredder's second in command, so he got the most screentime alongside Karai and Baxter. In Nick, Tiger Claw, Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop/Rocksteady and Baxter get the most appearances, since they work for him. All the other characters were always just one off or short lived characters in every series.[
Slash has more appearances in the Nick cartoon than the original show or Archie, and Leatherhead has probably appeared the same amount of episodes as the 4kids version. Rat King also got 3 episodes in Nick, whereas in 4kids he only got 1 measly episode.

Double standards.

Not really a double standard because the Nick series does it worse, again you have numerous of characters who were major players in other series downgraded into secondary characters.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 02:36 PM

Well different strokes I guess because to me Bishop hasn't really been handled in a fine way. The dude was a major player in the 2k3 series and is probably going to be a major one in the IDW series but here he feels like an afterthought, hell even in the episodes he appears in, he feels more like a secondary character. Compare this to the 2k3 version where not only he appears in more episodes but he also gets his own pov, he actually feels like a big part of the TMNT world.

Because in 4kids Bishop was originally built up as an antagonist. That isn't his role in this show. Also you're imagining Bishop appearing in 4kids a lot more than he did. He didn't debut until Season 3, and he only appeared in about 5 episodes. He was in a large chunk of Season 4, but then in Seasons 5 only appeared in one episode prior to the climax with Demon Shredder, and he was only in 3 FF episodes.

Not really a double standard because the Nick series does it worse, again you have numerous of characters who were major players in other series downgraded into secondary characters.

I don't agree with Bishop, but other than that I don't see who else you mean besides Hun. All the big characters in this show like Karai, Shredder, Kraang, Baxter, Bebop/Rocksteady, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, etc. have just as much a major presence here as any other show.

In fact most of the one-off mutants who are only in like 1-2 episodes are new characters Nick created themselves.

PApagreg

04-17-2017, 02:44 PM

Because in 4kids Bishop was originally built up as an antagonist. That isn't his role in this show. Also you're imagining Bishop appearing in 4kids a lot more than he did. He didn't debut until Season 3, and he only appeared in about 5 episodes. He was in a large chunk of Season 4, but then in Seasons 5 only appeared in one episode prior to the climax with Demon Shredder, and he was only in 3 FF episodes.

Thats still a hell of a lot more than the Nick Bishop also I don't see why Nick Bishop can't be a major player without being an antagonist.

I don't agree with Bishop, but other than that I don't see who else you mean besides Hun. All the big characters in this show like Karai, Shredder, Kraang, Baxter, Bebop/Rocksteady, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, etc. have just as much a major presence here as any other show.

In fact most of the one-off mutants who are only in like 1-2 episodes are new characters Nick created themselves.

You are honestly saying Nick Baxter has much of a presence as 4kids Baxter or that Bebop and Rocksteady has much of a presence as their FW counterparts.

Drose18

04-17-2017, 03:31 PM

It depends on the character.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 04:06 PM

Thats still a hell of a lot more than the Nick Bishop also I don't see why Nick Bishop can't be a major player without being an antagonist.

He's an important secondary recurring character in Nick. He just doesn't have as much appearances because as we said, he's not an antagonist.

You are honestly saying Nick Baxter has much of a presence as 4kids Baxter or that Bebop and Rocksteady has much of a presence as their FW counterparts.

You know good and well this is based on each individual series. Fred Wolf Bebop/Rocksteady were in nearly every episode Shredder appeared because that's how that show works. Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady appeared regularly since they've been mutated. They have the same presence when it comes to their focus episodes. Of course I'm not talking about episode count, 80's Bebop/Rocksteady were in somewhere around 140 episodes.

Nick's Baxter isn't as heavily focused on as 4kids Baxter, but he's still been in 24 episodes and worked for Shredder and came up with most of the mutation plans throughout the series.

neatoman

04-17-2017, 04:09 PM

What neatoman is saying is that IDW integrated them into the narrative organically and made them even better.

Yes thank you, I'm glad that someone else understands the difference between changes that serve a real purpose and those which are just arbitrary.

Nick was just all "Memba Bishop?" "I memba!" "Memba the Neutrinos though?"

It's barely even that though. Like with my previous "Hothead/Kavaxas/Drako" example, I will do the same with Wyrm.

There's really no point to making the genie character Wyrm, did anyone honestly take a look at the design and go "He totally seems like a genie type character!"? How does anyone connect worms to genies? It's not even like the character was completely devoid of previous characterisation. The truth is, much of this is probably just some vain attempt to make it seem as if the show has more to do with previous material than it really does.

The way he was written, they might as well have used Cudley, Jagwar, Nano, Stump, Hallocat, Cherubae, Null, Dreadmon, Viral, Sh'Okanabo or Triple Threat and it would have made about as much sense.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 04:13 PM

Yes thank you, I'm glad that someone else understands the difference between changes that serve a real purpose and those which are just arbitrary.

Even if that's the case, it's the same thing. IDW took a minor character like Angel and somehow turned her into an important character who became Nobody and is now one of the most appearing characters in the series.

Also from the looks of things Jagwar might be part of the Pantheon, both she and Null were changed to females from Archie, etc.

There's really no point to making the genie character Wyrm, did anyone honestly take a look at the design and go "He totally seems like a genie type character!"? How does anyone connect worms to genies? It's not even like the character was completely devoid of previous characterisation. The truth is, much of this is probably just some vain attempt to make it seem as if the show has more to do with previous material than it really does.
.

While I agree with this, Wyrm is such a minor character in TMNT it doesn't really matter. He never appeared in the original cartoon, and prior to IDW's one-shot with him, he only ever appeared in 2 Archie comics where all he did was attack Scumbug.

Vicky82

04-17-2017, 04:18 PM

If Baxter wasn't voiced by an expensive star, then maybe he would of been more focus on him.

I do feel that them using expensive stars to voice characters was more important than the story itself.

neatoman

04-17-2017, 04:50 PM

Even if that's the case, it's the same thing. IDW took a minor character like Angel and somehow turned her into an important character who became Nobody and is now one of the most appearing characters in the series.

But Angel isn't really that different from the original version aside from being older and what was added with time. She was originally a minor character, yes, but it's not she was changed as much as she was just expanded upon and it's all in line with the comic's tone and progression. It's not like they just combined Angel and Nobody from the start and ignored what the show had already established about her, so I don't get what the problem is? It's not contrived or random, neither as a version of Angel or as part of the series, so it works.

When Bebop and Rocksteady pops in halfway through season 3 it doesn't really feel organic in anyway. It happens after Shredder already had a ton of henchmen, they were created from characters who didn't seem to have anything to do with the original characters (if Zeck didn't have a purple mohawk, would you ever have guessed he would turn out to be Bebop?) and they don't seem to contribute much afterwards. So who were they appealing to by adding them? The target audience of little kids who didn't know who they were from before and already had a bunch of other characters to keep track of at that point? The periphery audience of older fans who might feel alienated by the new approach?

Also from the looks of things Jagwar might be part of the Pantheon, both she and Null were changed to females from Archie, etc.

The original Jagwar was... An oddity to say the least. It seems to me like they're just combining Jagwar with his dad, the Jaguar spirit thing. Again, not really a change that's all that jarring and it does provide a better narrative that just having this bizarre Jaguar-Demigod-Avatar thing just running around with his creepy spirit bestiality origin. It was just... Weird and I don't like to think about it...

As for the female thing... Diversity? I'll agree that it's kind pointless to change that but I don't think enough people cared deeply about Null or Jaqwar for that to be a deal breaker.

While I agree with this, Wyrm is such a minor character in TMNT it doesn't really matter. He never appeared in the original cartoon, and prior to IDW's one-shot with him, he only ever appeared in 2 Archie comics where all he did was attack Scumbug.

Whatever... But why Wyrm specifically though? If they just went with him because he's such a minor character, why not just take something that fits the genie motif better? Why an oversized flatworm of all things?

PApagreg

04-17-2017, 05:26 PM

I do feel that them using expensive stars to voice characters was more important than the story itself.

Why would having expensive stars be more important than having a good story.

Also I don't think Phil Lamarr is that expensive

Andrew NDB

04-17-2017, 05:50 PM

I think it's more... Nick throws name recognition of characters out there as easter eggs to old ass fans who still watch children's cartoons and warps them into whatever (because they can... no 6 year old is going to say they got the Warrior Dragon all wrong)... while IDW goes for name recognition characters too, but does it more faithfully. Difference being, those old ass fans are IDW's bread and butter. No one below the age of 35 is picking up an IDW comic that doesn't already know who Metalhead is or whatever.

Coola Yagami

04-17-2017, 06:03 PM

Mr. Ogg woulda made more sense than Wyrm. Just base him on a more modern comedian.

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 06:12 PM

I think it's more the fact that the Nick writers look at the Playmates toyline characters, moreso than the original cartoon or Archie characters. If you noticed it looked like they were going through a checklist of old playmates characters to bring back:

- Scumbug and Antrax both appear in the same ep together
- Wyrm appeared
- Pizza Face appeared although as an actual pizza
- Mona Lisa
- Punk Frogs
- Hot Head
- Metalhead
- Chrome Dome
- Rahzar and Tokka
- Baxter as a fly
- Mondo Gecko
- Wignnut/Screwloose
- Rat King
- Slash
- Leatherhead
- Mutagen Man
- Muckman
etc.

That being said I'm really surprised Man Ray never showed up in this show. Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

MikeandRaph87

04-17-2017, 06:30 PM

Perhaps the Nick team found him to be a little intimating. Man Ray can be a beast towards suits like them and doesn't like his kind being used for their names.
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/308/files/2017/03/tmnt68manraydefendmykind.jpg

ToTheNines

04-17-2017, 08:00 PM

The way he was written, they might as well have used Cudley, Jagwar, Nano, Stump, Hallocat, Cherubae, Null, Dreadmon, Viral, Sh'Okanabo or Triple Threat and it would have made about as much sense.

Lol, good point.

If Baxter wasn't voiced by an expensive star, then maybe he would of been more focus on him.

Phil Lamarr is not particularly expensive. And he was in plenty of episodes.

(if Zeck didn't have a purple mohawk, would you ever have guessed he would turn out to be Bebop?)

Lol, hell no. And everyone would have hated him.

Mr. Ogg woulda made more sense than Wyrm. Just base him on a more modern comedian.

Good call. I can't think of a modern comidian with a super distinct laugh like that, but imaging Louis CK or Nick Offerman as an omnipotent genie is pretty hilarious.

FredWolfLeonardo

04-17-2017, 10:26 PM

CyberCubed

04-17-2017, 10:37 PM

I don't like him much either, but he's barely in the episodes so it doesn't really matter. As far as I remember didn't he only have a role in about 3 episodes? His debut episode, one more episode when he and Casey fought again, and then a minor role in another?

neatoman

04-18-2017, 04:18 AM

Does anyone here actually like Nick Hun?

He is one of the few characters I kinda dislike, due to how different he is from the 2003 Hun. When I hear Hun, I want to see a giant Brute who can give the turtles a beating yet is cunning and sadistic. Instead, I got a Bruce Lee knock off who barely has a presence. Im not against a Bruce Lee character if done well, just dont call him Hun.

There seemed to be a trend in the show to have characters use the likeness of real world actors. Bradford as Chuck Norris, The Hammer as Sylvester Stallone, Zeck as Michael Jackson, Ho Chan literally is James Hong and I'm sure Xever is based on some real person as well (just a little unsure who).

So Nick Hun is essentially "What if Bruce Lee was cast as Hun?". So he's no that different aside from what the natural consequences of casting Lee would have been. Though... Why they went with Bruce Lee rather than Bruce Willis or something, I don't know.

ToTheNines

04-18-2017, 04:49 AM

Because the Nick Purple Dragons are a Chinese triad gang. So naturally, their leader is Chinese. Although, I do wish they'd mutated him or something into the mountain of a man we all know and love.

Candy Kappa

04-18-2017, 04:52 AM

I quite like Bruce Lee Hun, he got attitude just like the actor does in his movies, it's just too bad Hun in the show isn't a credible threat, cause his cockiness is less warranted when he gets whooped with ease.

TigerClaw

04-18-2017, 04:56 AM

The way I see this is, they are basically just new characters, they just slap in the names of the old characters as an excuse to put on the show.

CyberCubed

04-18-2017, 09:19 AM

The way I see this is, they are basically just new characters, they just slap in the names of the old characters as an excuse to put on the show.

Then all the 4kids and IDW and Archie characters are just new characters with old names.

Leatherhead was a human named Jess Harley in Archie, it's the only series where Leatherhead was a human instead of a normal alligator, and nobody cares. I'm willing to bet if Leatherhead was some human kid in Nick before being mutated, people would have complained.

ToTheNines

04-18-2017, 09:27 AM

TC > cybercubed

GoldMutant

04-18-2017, 02:22 PM

TC > cybercubed

Put em in a steel cage with Goku, the losers get banned, the winner gets locked. :lol:
_______________________

I'm a little unsure on what is meant by "old characters". Do you mean characters who only appeared once in a specific TMNT generation that have returned for the first time in years? That I can answer.

On the one hand, it's nice to see them revamped for a younger generation such as Slash. It gives a lot of opportunity to play with the characters, either to remold them or advance the story.

On the other hand, it kind of makes the new characters barely stand out. Obvious example being when Bradford and Xever started out as themselves before becoming Dogpound and Fishface respectively. It differentiates the series from reusing Bebop and Rocksteady as the new henchmutants. However, then Dogpound becomes Rahzar and Bebop and Rocksteady get used beginning in the third season by mutating two new characters in Anton Zeck and Ivan Steranko. I'd rather see new characters balanced with old, but not causing the new to be overtaken.

Coola Yagami

04-18-2017, 08:46 PM

Put em in a steel cage with Goku, the losers get banned, the winner gets locked. :lol:
_______________________

I'm a little unsure on what is meant by "old characters". Do you mean characters who only appeared once in a specific TMNT generation that have returned for the first time in years? That I can answer.

On the one hand, it's nice to see them revamped for a younger generation such as Slash. It gives a lot of opportunity to play with the characters, either to remold them or advance the story.

On the other hand, it kind of makes the new characters barely stand out. Obvious example being when Bradford and Xever started out as themselves before becoming Dogpound and Fishface respectively. It differentiates the series from reusing Bebop and Rocksteady as the new henchmutants. However, then Dogpound becomes Rahzar and Bebop and Rocksteady get used beginning in the third season by mutating two new characters in Anton Zeck and Ivan Steranko. I'd rather see new characters balanced with old, but not causing the new to be overtaken.

Exactly, what was the point of making Chris and Xever the new henchmen if you were going to bring in Bebop and Rocksteady anyway? Why not bring them in from the start? It would be like TMNT 2 using Tokka and Rahzar and then part 3 using Bebop and Rocksteady. We'd be happy to finally see them in a movie, but we'd be asking ourselves why they even bothered with Tokka and Rahzar to begin with.

Andrew NDB

04-18-2017, 08:53 PM

Exactly, what was the point of making Chris and Xever the new henchmen if you were going to bring in Bebop and Rocksteady anyway? Why not bring them in from the start?

Pretty obvious. Start with two newbies, since the new audiences won't care anyway. Sell their toys. Then build a couple seasons... then unveil... ZOMG, BEBOP AND ROCKSTEADY ARE COMING NEXT SEASON!!! The "old fans" freak out, the new fans shrug but are happy there's two new mutants. Then they sell new toys of B&R, not in competition with the first two sidekicks anymore.

And that's exactly the way it went down.

CyberCubed

04-18-2017, 08:54 PM

Exactly, what was the point of making Chris and Xever the new henchmen if you were going to bring in Bebop and Rocksteady anyway? Why not bring them in from the start? It would be like TMNT 2 using Tokka and Rahzar and then part 3 using Bebop and Rocksteady. We'd be happy to finally see them in a movie, but we'd be asking ourselves why they even bothered with Tokka and Rahzar to begin with.

You don't understand why they brought in Bebop/Rocksteady mid-way into Season 3, giving Rahzar/Fishface two and a half seasons full of screentime beforehand? And even when Bebop/Rocksteady were around, they still gave Shredder's other henchmen screentime? It was the best decision, because that way they gave their new characters screentime first and then brought in old ones.

Seeing Shredder with 5 mutant henchmen (plus Baxter), is a whole lot less repetitive than just sticking with the same two characters getting beaten up all the time. All the fight scenes would have been far more stale if we had to sit through Rahzar/Fishface in every single fight. As said, Rahzar and Fishface were already getting a bit stale to begin with, so it makes sense to freshen things up more.

MikeandRaph87

04-18-2017, 09:05 PM

By bringing in new mutant henchmen it made six instead of two. Trying to balance screen-time is near impossible especially with extensive arcs where they are not even in play such as the Northamtpon retreat or space arcs. It also takes away the threat level of the original two. Look at Chris Bradford. The number two ranked Foot Clan member was mutated and then double mutated then pushed aside to be third in command and then is the one henchman who dies. He had so much of a threat level being a celebrity with a double life and a big time well-rounded martial artist. Yet look at what happened. Its almost like Dogpound failed so they tried again. Then he still was not good enough so they revamped him and gave him another character's name and then he failed with creative as he got less and less to do then is killed off? He had crazy potential yet look at how less and less significant he became to the point of actually dying without an easy out of him shaking it off and swimming ashore. There were two many henchmen and Nick's lack of creativity and confidence in the original duo caused it.

Andrew NDB

04-18-2017, 09:14 PM

By bringing in new mutant henchmen it made six instead of two. Trying to balance screen-time is near impossible especially with extensive arcs where they are not even in play such as the Northamtpon retreat or space arcs.

Nobody cares. It's a show that exists to sell toys. That Ciro has been able to get any kind of long-winding arcs out of anything or anybody is pretty damn impressive.

CyberCubed

04-18-2017, 09:37 PM

He had crazy potential yet look at how less and less significant he became to the point of actually dying without an easy out of him shaking it off and swimming ashore. There were two many henchmen and Nick's lack of creativity and confidence in the original duo caused it.

What makes you think things would have been any different had Bebop/Rocksteady not been introduced? We'd just be sitting through Rahzar/Fishface getting beat over and over again (similar to Fred Wolf Bebop/Rocksteady) because of no new characters. The fight scenes would have been stale and redundant.

Having 5 mutant henchmen freshened things up. I also find it bizarre people are acting like they didn't wait an insanely long time to introduce Bebop/Rocksteady. The way you people talk you'd forget they weren't even mutated until halfway into Season 3. And then we had Season 4's 14 episode space arc, so they weren't even seen again till the end of Season 4.

PApagreg

04-18-2017, 10:11 PM

That Ciro has been able to get any kind of long-winding arcs out of anything or anybody is pretty damn impressive.

Not really, cartoon with vast story arcs are almost the norm nowadays.

CyberCubed

04-18-2017, 10:30 PM

Not really, cartoon with vast story arcs are almost the norm nowadays.

That was true a few years ago, but nowadays? You have stuff like Teen Titans Go and all comedy shows.

The early/mid 2000's however were a great time for cartoons with story arcs. Justice League/Unlimited, Teen Titans 2003, X-men Evolution, Spectacular Spiderman, Avengers: EMH, Avatar, Legend of Korra, Young Justice, TMNT 2k3, etc.

The last couple of years however have been pretty terrible for action cartoons, outside of the Star Wars CG shows airing.

PApagreg

04-18-2017, 10:43 PM

That was true a few years ago, but nowadays? You have stuff like Teen Titans Go and all comedy shows.

The early/mid 2000's however were a great time for cartoons with story arcs. Justice League/Unlimited, Teen Titans 2003, X-men Evolution, Spectacular Spiderman, Avengers: EMH, Avatar, Legend of Korra, Young Justice, TMNT 2k3, etc.

The last couple of years however have been pretty terrible for action cartoons, outside of the Star Wars CG shows airing.

I said story arcs not action cartoons, you still have shows like Steven Universe, Over the Garden Wall, Gravity Falls, Star vs, Archer, and hell even South Park

Andrew NDB

04-18-2017, 10:46 PM

I said story arcs not action cartoons, you still have shows like Steven Universe, Over the Garden Wall, Gravity Falls, Star vs, Archer, and hell even South Park

In other words... cheap-to-make flamination shows that have nothing to do with something like Nick TMNT at all. i.e., not shows built around toys.

PApagreg

04-18-2017, 10:50 PM

In other words... cheap-to-make flamination shows that have nothing to do with something like Nick TMNT at all. i.e., not shows built around toys.

None of the shows I mentioned with the exception of Southpark are cheap to make also I really don't see why it would be hard to make story arcs for a show thats built around toys

neatoman

04-19-2017, 04:00 AM

Leatherhead was a human named Jess Harley in Archie, it's the only series where Leatherhead was a human instead of a normal alligator, and nobody cares. I'm willing to bet if Leatherhead was some human kid in Nick before being mutated, people would have complained.

Because the Archie series has some nostalgia value? Either that or it's so old it just isn't generating much discussion anymore.

Pretty obvious. Start with two newbies, since the new audiences won't care anyway. Sell their toys. Then build a couple seasons... then unveil... ZOMG, BEBOP AND ROCKSTEADY ARE COMING NEXT SEASON!!! The "old fans" freak out, the new fans shrug but are happy there's two new mutants. Then they sell new toys of B&R, not in competition with the first two sidekicks anymore.

And that's exactly the way it went down.

Their inclusion didn't seem to have much of an impact on the ratings or toy sales though...

Nobody cares. It's a show that exists to sell toys. That Ciro has been able to get any kind of long-winding arcs out of anything or anybody is pretty damn impressive.

It's not impressive, not in the least. It's not even that well made for a show made to sell toys, it's barely even on par with Beast Wars and that was 20 years ago.

Edit:
In other words... cheap-to-make flamination shows that have nothing to do with something like Nick TMNT at all. i.e., not shows built around toys.

I should point out that Nick TMNT is most likely fairly cheap as well. The most expensive part about CGI shows is making the models and sets but once you have them, you can pretty much just manipulate digital puppets however you want, no need to redraw several frames manually since the computer just does that for you. It's why seasons 1 and 2 were almost exclusively set in the same handful of locations or why there has been so many episodes featuring the previously established characters in dreams/hallucinations.

Coola Yagami

04-19-2017, 08:39 AM

What makes you think things would have been any different had Bebop/Rocksteady not been introduced? We'd just be sitting through Rahzar/Fishface getting beat over and over again (similar to Fred Wolf Bebop/Rocksteady) because of no new characters. The fight scenes would have been stale and redundant.

Having 5 mutant henchmen freshened things up. I also find it bizarre people are acting like they didn't wait an insanely long time to introduce Bebop/Rocksteady. The way you people talk you'd forget they weren't even mutated until halfway into Season 3. And then we had Season 4's 14 episode space arc, so they weren't even seen again till the end of Season 4.

Or you know... other new and original mutants. Idk maybe a mutant gila monster and a mutant scorpion. And then of coursr tiger claw came along too.

CyberCubed

04-19-2017, 11:33 AM

Or you know... other new and original mutants. Idk maybe a mutant gila monster and a mutant scorpion. And then of coursr tiger claw came along too.

What's the point? They already created a ton of new mutants. Tiger Claw and Fishface were the two main ones, and created a ton of secondary or one-shot mutants.

Most of the new mutant characters Nick created didn't become popular. Snakeweed, Spiderbitez, Cockroach Terminator, Justin (that squid thing), Squirrelnoids, The Creep, Kirby-bat, the mutant car, the giant bird, Dream Beavers, etc. were all just one and done monster mutants. I did like Snakeweed myself, but I don't think he ever took off popularity wise.

Most of the popular characters in Nick, again besides Tiger Claw/Fishface, were just the reimaginings of old characters. I think the Rockwell monkey is the only other one that really stands out, because a psychic monkey is cool.

TigerClaw

04-19-2017, 03:02 PM

I like that they brought Mona Lisa on the show for a couple of episodes, Even though its not quite the version I'm used to knowing.

CyberCubed

04-19-2017, 03:40 PM

You'll never see the original version again, even if another series uses her and she's a mutant again. Fred Wolf versions of the characters can never be duplicated in any other series. That's why every version of Bebop/Rocksteady have been different, same for anyone else.

PApagreg

04-19-2017, 04:44 PM

Andrew NDB

04-19-2017, 04:49 PM

I wonder what the next Bebop and Rocksteady origin story will be? I can't wait.

TigerClaw

04-19-2017, 04:55 PM

What I'm curious about is what IDW is doing with Jagwar, Who was male in the Archie comics, and is gonna be female in the IDW comics.

IDW recently brought back Dreadmon in an issue of TMNT Universe.

This being the final season, the Nickelodeon series had some miss opportunities by not bringing in characters like Dreadmon or Jagwar into the show.

Then again, we don't know the full extend of what this final season will bring, so here's hoping.

neatoman

04-19-2017, 05:05 PM

I wonder what the next Bebop and Rocksteady origin story will be? I can't wait.

You know, the sad thing is that they more or less always have the same origin. They're never aliens, demons or even zoo animals, they're always human criminals mutated for the Foot. The Nick version came the closest to being something different, and that just boiled down to accents and a few weapons.

I honestly don't get what's so sacred about the mutated criminal origin that nobody really tried anything else?

CyberCubed

04-19-2017, 05:42 PM

You know, the sad thing is that they more or less always have the same origin. They're never aliens, demons or even zoo animals, they're always human criminals mutated for the Foot. The Nick version came the closest to being something different, and that just boiled down to accents and a few weapons.

I honestly don't get what's so sacred about the mutated criminal origin that nobody really tried anything else?

They shouldn't be anything else. Bebop and Rocksteady aren't anything more than normal human criminals who become mutants and work for Shredder. You might as well use different characters entirely if you change them from that.

ToTheNines

04-19-2017, 06:08 PM

You might as well use different characters entirely if you change them from that.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3o7aTLhoDUdLALkXBe/giphy.gif

Coola Yagami

04-19-2017, 07:50 PM

What's the point? They already created a ton of new mutants. Tiger Claw and Fishface were the two main ones, and created a ton of secondary or one-shot mutants.

Most of the new mutant characters Nick created didn't become popular. Snakeweed, Spiderbitez, Cockroach Terminator, Justin (that squid thing), Squirrelnoids, The Creep, Kirby-bat, the mutant car, the giant bird, Dream Beavers, etc. were all just one and done monster mutants. I did like Snakeweed myself, but I don't think he ever took off popularity wise.

Most of the popular characters in Nick, again besides Tiger Claw/Fishface, were just the reimaginings of old characters. I think the Rockwell monkey is the only other one that really stands out, because a psychic monkey is cool.

Snakeweed, Spider Bytes and the rest weren't Shredder's minions though. If fishface or tigetclaw were random one off mutants they also would have been forgettable.