Is 2003's TMNT The Most Pure Expression of TMNT?

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Almost done with the "Notes From the Underground" stuff. Can anyone confirm or deny whether this was loosely inspired by the Jack Kirby-influenced stuff that was prevalent in the Superman books in the 70s and early 90s? All the "Evil Factory"/"DNAliens"/"Underworlders" stuff? I don't see how it couldn't have been.

I like it, it just really jumped out as being so similar that it makes me wonder. Also, this show is full of very blatant comic book references and Laird was a story consultant. It probably was but I'd love confirmation.

Can neither confirm or deny but I would definitely imagine that was the case. Eastman was a huge DC fan when Kirby was there. He was huge into everything Kirby touched at DC, his favorites being Kamandi, The New Gods, Forever People and I know there were more but yeah, all that TMNT stuff you mentioned had to be influenced by Kirby's work.

[Leo656]

I'm such a goddamn dumbass, I forgot about the giant "Dedicated to Jack Kirby" dedication at the end of the credits. So yeah, that was definitely the reference. Spiffy!

If you merge Stoneface and Razorfist into one character, you get Clawster, perhaps best known as the first boss in the Death and Return of Superman video game. Just something I noticed.

[AquaParade]

I have not watched this show in at least a decade. I am not sure how it would hold up for me. I remember appreciating the reverence for the comics, occasional dark storyline, and character work (Michelangelo aside), but at the same time, it is hard to accept a sterilized version of stories you already love from the comics. Stuff like City at War, among many others were disappointing more often than not.

I can go back anytime and appreciate Batman: The Animated Series, and I know there is no chance this holds up as well, but it might be about time for me to see how I feel about the show again. I may appreciate it in a new light now that my initial expectations are out the window.

If anyone has suggestions for episodes that are noticeably strong in the animation department, please let me know. That’s what I am typically most interested in when it comes to cartoons, not to downplay the other ingredients.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I have not watched this show in at least a decade. I am not sure how it would hold up for me. I remember appreciating the reverence for the comics, occasional dark storyline, and character work (Michelangelo aside), but at the same time, it is hard to accept a sterilized version of stories you already love from the comics. Stuff like City at War, among many others were disappointing more often than not.

I can go back anytime and appreciate Batman: The Animated Series, and I know there is no chance this holds up as well, but it might be about time for me to see how I feel about the show again. I may appreciate it in a new light now that my initial expectations are out the window.

If anyone has suggestions for episodes that are noticeably strong in the animation department, please let me know. That?s what I am typically most interested in when it comes to cartoons, not to downplay the other ingredients.

If you do revisit it, I would suggest that you adjust your expectations after the first season. The first season or first 12 episodes are probably or should be an amazing experience. Your mileage will no doubt vary after that. After season 4 though, things may become downright unwatchable, though I do enjoy the Season 5 Ninja Tribunal stuff.

[Leo656]

I think I've only made it through the third Season at most and only an episode here and there after that. Real Life stuff was going on at the time and I wasn't able to keep up with it. I know for a fact that it becomes very uneven as time goes on.

I can honestly say that the entire first season felt solid to me with only maybe two episodes at most that felt like they didn't matter much, but it's not like they annoyed me or anything. I really feel like Season 1 is really, really strong altogether and one of the better action cartoons for kids that's ever been done. I already really liked the show but S1 was so, so much better than I'd remembered it being that I'm honestly very surprised. They really build up to the finale extremely well all season long, and the Shredder/Leo stuff has a ton of weight to it as well. By the time he cuts Shredder's head off, even though you know what's coming next if you're at all familiar with the show, it still feels huge and earned. Really good storytelling on this show.

I'd be pretty surprised if just about anyone didn't enjoy S1. After that, I'unno. Taking a small break before starting Season 2. We'll see what happens, I know that's when they start going way, way away from the comics but they were still keeping it pretty tight with S1.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

We'll see what happens, I know that's when they start going way, way away from the comics but they were still keeping it pretty tight with S1.

No they weren't.

[Leo656]

Uh, in Season 1 yeah they were, watch it again.

"Pretty tight" doesn't mean 1:1 ya mook. It means they were still pulling things directly off the page sometimes and mixing those things with their own material and not completely making up their own story yet like they did later on. At some point in S2 it becomes completely original material but they were still heavily cribbing things from Mirage in S1 even if they context was different. There's entire scenes that are lifted wholesale right down to the dialog and framing of the "camera". Entire arcs are borrowed. They just painted it a different color and put more bells on it, you nitpicky crank.

S1 was absolutely HEAVILY Mirage-Inspired. S2 and onward, less so. And that's fine. But to say they weren't "keeping it tight" in S1 is a lie. It's more Mirage-inspired than the movie was, even, it's the closest that's ever been done or ever will be. You're just cranky about it because it wasn't entirely "straight". And that's fine, you don't have to like it. But don't lie, either. The entire context was different and runs parallel with their original material woven into it, but that doesn't change the fact that they pulled directly from the books for 3/4s of what's in that season. It's all right there. There's far less original material than borrowed material in S1. These are facts. Yes, that changed a lot later on but I'm not talking about those seasons yet. Just S1.

We ALL now that you also ain't even watched it since it first aired, quit playin'. I'm tempted to say "It's more faithful than The Boys is" but I don't wanna turn this thread into a war, that'd just be mean. True, but needlessly mean.

[AquaParade]

I jumped into "The Shredder Strikes pt 1" for the first time in ten years (as I mentioned above) and came away with a few thoughts:

- While I appreciate all the nods to Mirage, the show still feels like it is coming into it's own by this point. At least going by my memory, I remember things feelings a bit tighter around seasons 3 and 4, when it comes to animation and voice acting. Again, that could be a bad recollection, so I'll have to pop in a later episode to compare.

- Overall the animation looks pretty good, but what stands out to me more now are the storyboards themselves. There are some really cool shots in this episode. Great use of perspective, image focus, choreography. Even when scenes don't look incredibly smooth, there is usually an effort there to make things visually interesting.

- whenever I pop this show on, I'm reminded that I don't like the music very much. The intro especially, but that's easy to ignore. I would say there is an effort to craft not only a dramatic score, but one that is somewhat authentic to Japanese culture at times, yet most of it comes across as rather dull at best, or corny at worst. The goofy sound effects don't help either.

While I don't see myself doing a full re-watch of season 1, I think I will re-visit "The Gauntlet", which was an old favorite, before skipping to season 3 and seeing if my perceived jump in quality has any weight.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I have not watched this show in at least a decade. I am not sure how it would hold up for me. I remember appreciating the reverence for the comics, occasional dark storyline, and character work (Michelangelo aside), but at the same time, it is hard to accept a sterilized version of stories you already love from the comics. Stuff like City at War, among many others were disappointing more often than not.

I can go back anytime and appreciate Batman: The Animated Series, and I know there is no chance this holds up as well, but it might be about time for me to see how I feel about the show again. I may appreciate it in a new light now that my initial expectations are out the window.

If anyone has suggestions for episodes that are noticeably strong in the animation department, please let me know. That?s what I am typically most interested in when it comes to cartoons, not to downplay the other ingredients.

I wasn?t sure if the series would hold up for me either when I started to rewatch it a few years ago, so it was a pleasant surprise to find that it did. It?s still one of my top 5 tv shows. I?ve never read the comics, though.

Never really got into Batman: TAS, strangely enough, though I enjoyed most episodes on the volume 1-2 dvds I have.

I?d suggest watching a few standalone 2003 episodes first such as The King, April?s Artifact and The Darkness Within as a way of easing yourself back into the series.

[Leo656]

See, I have to wonder if I'd have the same emotional response to all the Big Stuff if I hadn't allowed for the slow burn all season long. I'm sure I was much more invested than I would've been otherwise. Plus the "smaller" episodes have a lot of nice little character moments that I'm glad I didn't miss along the way, stuff I'd honestly forgotten about.

I'm weird like that, I almost never skip around with serialized shows to get to "The Good Stuff" because I know that the story wasn't written to be consumed that way. Like a rollercoaster with nothing but loops, I guess would be an apt analogy.

People are always trying to get me to skip most of S2 of Twin Peaks and I'm like "Leave me alone, I like it!"

I do think the music was altogether pretty good but the intro is probably my least favorite thing about the show. By the halfway point of S1 I was resorting to changing the lyrics for my own amusement. I thought most of the in-show music was fine, though. A little generic, I guess.

I took a short break to work on a couple projects but we'll see how Season 2 goes.

[neatoman]

The things I wish were different about this show are:

• That it had less toy advertisement.
• That it was a bit higher budget.
• That season 5 was better in general.
• That season 6 and 7 weren't just better, but also felt more in line with the previous seasons.

[Turo602]

I didn't realize how little I knew of the mirage comics until I recently went back to the Ninja Turtles website via the wayback machine and read through all the detailed synopses of the comics from beginning to end, which I never got around to as a kid and couldn't after the Nickelodeon purchase.

I knew stuff here and there, but I never really knew how the original story flowed and I was making all sorts of connections from the material to the original film and 2003 series that I never knew of before. I would definitely love to one day own the mirage books and read them for myself, because there isn't really any detailed descriptions of the comics on the internet or even comparison videos on YouTube that could pinpoint references and such like people do for Marvel and DC.

But I was definitely blown away by how fast the Turtles went from fighting Shredder and the Foot in New York to discovering Utroms and ending up in space as well as how much time they spent in North Hampton. I always knew Shredder died in the first issue, but for some reason, it never occurred to me to find out how the rest of the story went beat for beat.

From what I gathered, the 2003 series borrows quite a lot from the comics and in my honest opinion, has a better progression. They take their time with certain developments while also including a lot of the fun side stories from the comics in between the main story arc episodes and they rarely feel like filler too, as they serve to flesh out characters and even revisit and expand on those stories in later episodes which is excellent world-building.

The 2003 series had the advantage of hindsight which is why I feel they did such a tremendous job with the story and pacing of events that originated in the comics. Not to mention, Peter Laird's involvement, which even makes me wonder whether or not Peter Laird finds the 2003 series to be the definitive version of the Ninja Turtles as a whole, since the comics never got a resolution and even started borrowing from the show towards the end, and honestly, became a huge mess with Volumes 3 and 4. The 2003 series just feels so much more complete as a story and still hits all the important beats from the comics.

The show may have gone off the rails with the last 2 seasons, but at that point, they had told a complete story and were pretty much just trying to sell toys to stay afloat. But even then, I find it fascinating how Back to the Sewers still managed to pull Donatello's arc from Volume 4 of the comics despite largely being just another gimmick season.

The Mirage Turtles may be the original Turtles, but I don't think that makes them the most pure form of the franchise, just like the ideal or common perception of Batman or Superman aren't the ones that were originally created in the 1930s. I think the original comics and the 80s cartoon are both equally responsible for creating what is generally acceptable for the Ninja Turtles as a brand, and that marriage has been seen in the original 1990 film, 2k3 series, the 2012, and I think even the current IDW comic book run.

Personally, the 2003 series is by far my favorite iteration as a whole. I still welcome the characters and wackiness of the 80s cartoon, but I also welcome the dark and gritty style of the comics. Shredder will always be human to me as well, but overall, the 2003 TMNT is probably as good as it will ever get considering Ninja Turtles will always be looked at as a children's property or some lame nostalgic cartoon that needs to be fixed for adult audiences.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

While I don't see myself doing a full re-watch of season 1, I think I will re-visit "The Gauntlet", which was an old favorite, before skipping to season 3 and seeing if my perceived jump in quality has any weight.

Isn't "The Gauntlet" a 2012 series episode?

[Leo656]

Good insight, Turo. Fair points well-spoken.

[PizzaPower1985]

In the next few weeks, I'm gonna do a review and analysis of this entire series for my blog... I'm asking first out of politeness BUT would it be okay IF I used your thoughts and comments here to help flesh out my review?

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Good insight, Turo. Fair points well-spoken.

Appreciate you saying that considering I find it hard to post sometimes because you hog all the good points and I don't want to come off like I'm just regurgitating everything you're saying.

Also, I wouldn't say season 2 doesn't follow the books considering it tackles the whole triceraton stuff which I found to be very similar from what I read as well as the Leatherhead story that comes after. Then there's the City at War storyline which from what I understand is heavily bastardized in the show, but it's still there. Zog also pretty much serves the same purpose he did in the comics but in a different context since they already did the Return to New York stuff in season 1, which if I recall correctly, is where he died against the three mutant Shredders. There's also the one offs like The Golden Puck and Justice Force episodes which I think are also direct rips from the comics.

The biggest unique ideas in season 2 is pretty much the secret origins/Shredder stuff, but that's really only because the comics didn't leave them with much to work with passed the Return to New York arc and they still managed to sneak in the whole resurrection from healing worms crap. Then there's the Battle Nexus stuff which I don't think anyone is gonna argue was a terrible inclusion as it was pretty much the Ninja Turtles' version of the Kumite, which they even ended up including in volume 4 of the comics after it had been on the show already if my timeline is correct.

But overall, I think the show handles a lot of the original material really well despite mixing characters around and changing the order of events because it flows naturally within the context of the narrative. For example, Leo goes through Raph's arc in Sons of the Silent Age, and it works just as good if not arguably better than the comic book counterpart because of the bigger picture story the show is telling with Leonardo.

Even giving Donatello Raph's 2nd mutation from the comics felt like a stronger narrative decision because of the implications it creates with Donatello not being able to science up a win for the team which forces the Turtles to work with the enemy. And by then, it's not like the comics were giving them much to work with anymore so given the way the rest of the series went post season 4 and even before in regards to Shredder and whatnot isn't surprising.

One thing that did completely blow my mind was the fact that Karai was essentially a mix of 2 or 3 characters from the comics who were all tied to Lady Shredder. Whether or not it was better to unify all the characters under Karai was a better choice, I don't know, but I do find it shocking that neither of the other characters have ever appeared in any of the other forms of media. Bloodsucker was always a character I've wanted to see appear somewhere else as well.

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

In the next few weeks, I'm gonna do a review and analysis of this entire series for my blog... I'm asking first out of politeness BUT would it be okay IF I used your thoughts and comments here to help flesh out my review?

That's awesome, I'll definitely check out your blog when you do that. I always enjoy those rare moments when this show is talked about on the web. Keep us posted.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

In the next few weeks, I'm gonna do a review and analysis of this entire series for my blog... I'm asking first out of politeness BUT would it be okay IF I used your thoughts and comments here to help flesh out my review?

It?s ok with me.

Originally Posted by Turo602

That's awesome, I'll definitely check out your blog when you do that. I always enjoy those rare moments when this show is talked about on the web. Keep us posted.

Agreed.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Turo602

Appreciate you saying that considering I find it hard to post sometimes because you hog all the good points and I don't want to come off like I'm just regurgitating everything you're saying.

Awww, I'm sowwy. I do like muh essays.

Another great post, in any case.

Gearing up to watch Season 2 and beyond, and I immediately remember why I haven't done a big run on this show in a while and why S2 is the last thing I vividly remember: The DVD episode order is bananas. I wanted to make sure I watched the stuff in the "right" order, and unfortunately if you're like me and only have the commercial DVDs to go by, there's a ton of disc-swapping involved. Ooof. I had to write down a whole list and everything. Gross.

You'd think that Nick would've caved in and done proper season sets by now. People have been saying "nobody buys DVDs anymore" for the last 10 years and yet everything still comes out on disc so I don't wanna hear that sh*t. Point of fact, I've never even seen any of the final Season, partly for that reason.

I know, I know, "just pirate it and burn your own discs like everyone else." I really prefer not to do that kinda thing, and frankly shouldn't have to. And secondly, my wife's laptop has the burner and her laptop is broken, so even if I were inclined I couldn't do it.

I know Nick won't ever get off their ass and fix this situation, but yeah that'd be great.

[AquaParade]

I?d do a full rewatch if they remastered this and released it on blu ray.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I?d do a full rewatch if they remastered this and released it on blu ray.

That would be amazing! If they had IN ORDER blu-rays I would scream: "Shut Up! Take my mother****** money!"