Eastman Interview. The Franchise should lean more on its gritter roots

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

What's He-Man?

Is that anything like a shemale?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Fine geesh, they're.... What's the answer that will prevent me from experiencing harm?

"They both captivated an entire generation and outperformed beyond any limitations or expectations, and in spite of their many flaws are held as the Gold Standard of their respective brands by millions and millions of people, and together they defined an entire decade of children's entertainment." That'll do nicely.

Any other path leads to spike-city. It's a grapevine DDT, too, so you'd only have one arm to try and post with, AND I sweep the near leg so you're off-balance on the way down. I'd absolutely kill a guy if they weren't ready for it.

I invented it! Probably. I mean, some Japanese guy probably did it first a hundred years ago, like usual, but *I'D* never seen it before. And if I haven't seen it, it's new to ME!

But yeah, better tread carefully, I get a little sloppy sometimes. I love you, but... I've spiked guys for way less.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

What's He-Man?

Is that anything like a shemale?

[Musashi]

I think my entire life probably revolved around He-Man when I was aged about 5-7. I say that like I'm somehow better now.

Still got a couple of the Ladybird little hardcover books, UK edition. The Iron Master and A Trap For He-Man. Love the artwork - it makes Eternia such a cool place, even more so than the cartoon.

Question - Mechaneck. In the episode that details his origin story... Why is he already called Mechaneck before the accident that hurts his neck and makes it necessary to make it bionic? I suppose there might be something self-fulfilling in it... You know, "Your name... It gives me an idea..."

[Leo656]

That's one of the many, many mysteries of the He-Man universe!

Definitely some self-fulfilling properties happening over there, though. As if Mo-Larr would ever be anything BUT Eternia's Dentist.

What an odd place to live.

And yeah, in scoping around online it turns out there are many, many, MANY people who far prefer the Eternia of the storybooks and first two years or so of mini-comics, rather than the more familiar animated series version. Can't really argue with that. The world and characters seen in print were much darker, primal, and more mysterious than the more sanitized version most people are familiar with. Some He-Man fans flat-out hate the cartoon. I don't, but I get their point completely.

[AquaParade]

He-Man always seemed like the dumbest thing in the world to me. "He-Man"??
Granted, I hardly gave it the time of day, but my ignorant opinion stands.

[Leo656]

That most certainly is a terrible opinion, yes.

If "Lord of the Rings meets Star Wars" is any dumber than "A bunch of turtles fell in a sewer and now they know kung-fu", then there simply is no God.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

That most certainly is a terrible opinion, yes.

If "Lord of the Rings meets Star Wars" is any dumber than "A bunch of turtles fell in a sewer and now they know kung-fu", then there simply is no God.

Does He-Man have a Mirage equivalent? Or was there only the Fred Wolf version of He-Man?

You mentioned DC comics, I think...?

Also, the Turtles know ninjitsu, you fvcking ape.

[Leo656]

I assume they ALSO know kung-fu. They better.

The "Mirage Equivalent" of Masters of the Universe would be the first two years' worth of mini-comics that came with the action figures, as well as most of the early Golden Books storybooks. Back then it was much more Conan-like in the general aesthetic, and aside from the visuals of some of the main characters it had almost nothing to do with the cartoon show which came later.

Stuff like this, basically:





That was how it all basically went in the first few years. Which, you'll notice, bears only a very superficial similarity to Stuff Like This:


And, just like with TMNT, there are people who have nothing but disdain for the cartoon show for "making everything a joke", and people who love the cartoon and give it all the credit for "making the brand popular and memorable".

Not altogether too different, insofar as being an essential 1980s property with a fractured fanbase. He-Man fans tend to seem... a LITTLE less divided on the whole, however. I don't post there but their forum is mostly free of a lot of the nonsense we get around here. They altogether seem a little bit more highbrow, as fanatics go. Friendlier. Slightly more educated. Also older, which probably connects everything. Most of the fans there are 35-45 and communicate accordingly.

But yeah, both brands have a lot in common (outside of just popularity), in that there was The Original Product Style, and then a Very Popular Cartoon Show which changed everything, and that cartoon was either the Best or Worst thing to ever happen to the brand depending on who you ask. Similar divisiveness. But He-Man fans don't seem to argue about it as much, that's what I notice. Less "bashing" going on of things they don't like. Just something I've noticed in general over there.

Considering their forum is WAY more active than this one is, that's actually no mean feat. But then they have a much more active mod/Admin system and their staff doesn't take any crap, so that probably has a lot to do with it, whereas this place has been a free-for-all for over a decade now.
---------------------------

EDIT:
I almost forgot to address your DC Comics query. Yeah, a lot of DC staff actually worked on some of the early mini-comics, but then DC also published an "official" three-issue mini-series in the early-80s to kind of give the brand a "definitive" origin story (the brand had been around for like three years by then but Mattel was still mostly just winging it as far as the storyline went). But the DC Comic book went too far against what Filmation was working on for the cartoon show at the same time, so Mattel moved the license to Marvel where they did a completely DIFFERENT comic book, which was based entirely on the Filmation cartoon. It was okay. The DC one was a lot more "old-world", with a lot of "Lord of the Rings"-style aesthetic and everyone speaking "The Queen's English". They didn't have all the bugs worked out, yet.

Then DC got the rights to do comics again a few years ago, and have gone back to the darker, more violent roots of everything, and in some cases pushed it even farther, while still retaining everything from the cartoons. Kind of a "best of everything" approach. They're pretty good.

[neatoman]

When it comes to what little experience I have with He-Man, it comes across less like "Star Wars + Tolkien" and more like "Conan + Flash Gordon" or "DEN - Giant nude dong in your face all the time".

[Leo656]

Several things can be true at once. It's a very versatile and diversely-represented franchise.

It's Tolkien-esque in that the series' mythology spans over 5,000 years and has an "Epic Fantasy" setting. It's somewhat reminiscent of Flash Gordon in that He-Man's mom was an astronaut from Earth who ended up on Eternia by accident. It's like Star Wars in that there's Ancient Magic but yet it co-exists with laser swords and blaster rifles that shoot plasma beams. It's influenced by Conan because Obviously It's Influenced By Conan.

There's generally a lot going on, that's what's so great about it. It's like Every Cool Thing Ever got mixed into One Thing, and then they just gave the guy a giant magic sword.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Wait, so the toys predated the cartoon? I always assumed the cartoon came first.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Wait, so the toys predated the cartoon? I always assumed the cartoon came first.

With most American 80/90's cartoons you can assume the toys did come out first, or were at the very least the reason it got greenlit in the first place. In the case of He-Man, I'm pretty sure the toys were finalised before the show was even put into production. With Transformers the toys had been on the Japanese market for 2-3 years before Hasbro rebranded them for the American market and funded the cartoon.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Wait, so the toys predated the cartoon? I always assumed the cartoon came first.

((Cracks Knuckles))

They were in development alongside each other late in the game, but the toys came out several years ahead.

Under the name "Lords of Power", what would eventually become "Masters of the Universe" started development in the late-70s under Mattel. Mattel originally had a more generic fantasy concept in mind, with character's origins and alignment kept purposely vague so that kids could make up their own "story" during playtime. As things got closer to release around 1981, market research strongly suggested that kids actually wanted storylines for their action figures, to know who the Good Guys and Bad Guys were and why everyone was fighting. So Mattel had the idea to distribute mini-comics with each action figure, to better establish the world and characters, with the plan being for DC Comics to publish a full-fledged comic book as well.

Toys R Us, however, decreed to Mattel that "Kids don't read" and insisted that they get the story of the line out to kids by way of an animated special or something of that nature instead. That led to a meeting between Mattel and Filmation, which later led to the development of the cartoon show. However, the toys were already about to hit the market and the cartoon show was going to take a while to develop. Given that the original storyline for the toys was much more similar to Conan in nature, with a much darker and more "savage" look and feel, Filmation had reservations about this and in developing the cartoon they decided to make several drastic changes to the storyline to make it more suitable for younger kids. Mattel was okay with this, given that nothing had been entirely set in stone by this point anyway, although it resulted in quite a tangled web of characters and continuity since a ton of merchandise had already been produced before Filmation's "bible" for the cartoon had been written.

Therefore, the first wave of toys was finished and advertised in 1981 and debuted for sale in 1982, alongside a ton of books and other merchandise that were set in the "pre-Filmation" lore. The mini-comics that came with the toys set up some of the "basic" mythology, and the DC mini-series came out that July, ostensibly to "finalize" the brand's storyline. However, the Filmation cartoon was still in development, and their ideas were drastically different from what was already being presented in other media. Some bits of what would later become "hard canon" in all MOTU mythology were introduced in the DC mini-series, but most of the broad strokes were very different than what Filmation would later present. Since the Golden Books had already been solicited and developed almost entirely removed from what either DC or Filmation had been doing, they in turn continued along a mostly-disconnected path with only a passing resemblance to the world of the comics and cartoon show.

The Filmation cartoon was finalized and put on the air in 1983, with a much more comedic and "preschool-friendly" aesthetic than everything that had come before. It was still notable for being one of the first cartoon shows aimed at kids to allow for hand-to-hand combat, albeit much simplified and less "intense" than what had been shown in the books and comics. Epic sword battles with people swinging battle axes and maces and such were replaced mostly by basic wrestling throws and bloodless laser-gun action a'la "Star Wars". The "violence" in the show is quaint by any standard, but still caused quite an uproar back in '83, given He-Man's fondness for body-slamming enemies and the fact that he'd even punch them (with the iconic "He-Man Punches The Screen" stock footage shot being used in almost every single episode). "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" immediately became the most popular cartoon on TV, and with that, the "Filmation Canon" went on to mostly supersede all of the previously existing MOTU mythology, and in most peoples' minds is the "official" version of the characters and story, despite coming out much later than everything else. Almost exactly like what happened with TMNT and the Fred Wolf series.

Once Filmation took off, their canon was retroactively applied to the toys, mini-comics, etc. Mattel moved the comic book license to Marvel for a "fresh start" since the DC books had been so different from Filmation. The Golden books remained in their own "pocket universe" but did apply SOME elements of the cartoon show, although on the whole their entire aesthetic and tone remained much more in line with the darker pre-Filmation works; they merely adopted a few of the character designs and story elements from the cartoon but avoided going full-blown "preschool".

So that's pretty much the long and short of it; there was only a two-year gap between the toys' debut and the Filmation debut, but a LOT happened in that two years resulting in no fewer than three (and even as many as five or six) disparate "canons" for Masters of the Universe by 1984.

One interesting thing is that the Filmation cartoon itself has become somewhat retroactively derided as being "simply a toy commercial", but frankly that doesn't apply very well. It absolutely was developed to bring awareness to the toys - and it was successful to a degree in that - however, the toy line went on to feature over 70 characters whereas the cartoon show mostly focused on a core group of less than a dozen for its entire two-year run. Characters who'd debuted before the cartoon show looked very different, and given how long episodes took to develop, MOST of the toys and vehicles for the toy line simply never appeared even once in the cartoon show. Likewise, almost none of the characters created for the show ever had toys made of them. Finally, the toy line both predated the cartoon show by almost two full years AND outlasted the cartoon by about three more years (although the cartoon still aired in syndicated repeats until 1990 depending on where you lived).

Thus, given how independent they toys and cartoon show were from each other for much of the toys' existence, it's kind of an oversimplification to dismiss the show as "just a commercial for the toys" because while it raised awareness for sure through its popularity, it simply didn't represent the toys very well at all. It merely pushed the popularity of the brand name through the roof, which obviously helped the toys to sell, but on the whole, there was almost no cross-over and very little in common between them.
----------------

It's a really great brand with a very fascinating history. The fact is, most of the other popular 80s brands like TMNT and the "Real American Hero" version of G.I Joe simply wouldn't have ever existed without it. It created the 5.5-inch scale market for action figures (rather than the 3.5 scale of Star Wars and G.I. Joe), made playsets and vehicles as important as the action figures, had an overall "lore" for everything, was the first cartoon show to allow "violence", and started the trend of cartoon shows trying to instill life lessons to kids and be more than "just a toy commercial". Pretty much every popular cartoon and toy line for the rest of the 1980s owes a debt to the MOTU brand in some pretty significant ways, because it opened up a ton of doors and broke a lot of new ground. Without it, you simply can't have most of what came later. And that's always very interesting.

Like, there's a VERY good chance that TMNT as we know them wouldn't ever have existed without MOTU. It always amazes and vexes me that there's a strong "rivalry" of sorts among the two fandoms, because personal preference of subject matter aside they really have more in common than not. But without MOTU, it's very unlikely that a TMNT cartoon or even a toy line would ever have come to pass, or if they did, they wouldn't have had any resemblance whatsoever to what we actually got. Pretty much everything about the TMNT toys and FW cartoon leans heavily on what Mattel did with MOTU, and out of all the 1980s popular brands they're the two with the most in common. The connections might not be superficially obvious given the dramatically different subject matter, but they're absolutely there, from the size/scale of the toys and all the way down the line.

Which I always think is neat. It wasn't until I got older that I found out that while a lot of He-Man fans still liked TMNT, a lot of TMNT fans really, REALLY hate He-Man. That makes me sad, because it seems silly to make it a "competition", but it mostly seems to be a generational thing. Older fans don't care, younger fans just want their preferred brand to "win" or be more popular. Seems silly, but that's how people are.

[AquaParade]

I always did like like Skeletor.

[Leo656]

He's got an exposed skull for a head/face; I think if that doesn't tickle something within a person then that person is simply dead inside.

Personally a big, big fan of the "demonic red glowing eyes" variant as originally illustrated very early on. They did away with that pretty quick... "too scary for the kiddies" and all that. But it looks so damn cool that way. I'm glad they brought it back for the newer toys.

"Skull Face" is a nice visual. "Skull Face + Burning Red Eyes" is just plain amazing.



((((Swoon))))

[newfan]

Well, a thread about a show that may never happen can only last so long anyway.. I don't mind the derail though, I found that read on He-Man history quite interesting, seen as it's one of my childhood shows, might well be favourite actually but I haven't sat and ranked them
Not sure what the situation is with the movie that was planned.

As as the reason for the thread, not sure how much weight he has but I guess it still brings the point up for whatever it's worth. Hopefully it can be a possibility at some point.

[Leo656]

Movie was stalled, again. It got closer than ever before until the pandemic happened, now it's in holding because they might not have the money to make it.

IF it happens, it'll be for Netflix, and was already more or less guaranteed to be for Netflix and not theatrical even before the pandemic. It was supposed to be announced by now, and all the new He-Man toys coming out this year and next were supposed to be just the lead-in for the Big Announcement of the live-action film, but now, the movie - yet again - might not happen at all.

The fact is, "Origins" and everything else coming out probably wouldn't have been greenlit at all, if they weren't thisclose on finally having a movie out. It was all supposed to kinda tie in... the toys, the Kevin Smith animated project, the other Netflix animated series, and the live-action film. It was all part of this grand plan for two years' worth of new MOTU products with the movie being the cherry on top.

We'll have to wait and see. They got really, really close this time. They just don't have any money to make it, right now, and probably won't until the entire movie business stabilizes. One of a hundred projects that got screwed up thanks to COVID.

At least all the other stuff is still happening more or less on schedule. The new toys are great, the animated stuff... ehhh, people are waiting to see more of substance before making up a hard opinion (most MOTU fans are VERY nervous about Kevin Smith's involvement in the one project). The movie sounded like they wanted to do it right, so that's encouraging. For the longest time, there was internal debate as to whether the movie should be campy and goofy like the cartoon show or more of a straight-up Epic Fantasy movie a'la Conan. The issue being, people will expect certain things from the cartoon show to be in the movie (just like Bebop and Rocksteady on the TMNT side of things), but the cartoon itself is far too silly to turn into a movie for anyone but little kids, who completely do not care about He-Man (just like little kids don't care about TMNT, either). Meanwhile, the "more serious" approach has been pitched to the movie studios a hundred times, and while they mostly do want to go in that direction, every "serious" script for MOTU is just plain too expensive to film.

It's more or less the exact same problem the TMNT brand keeps running into. Someone says, "We should make a more grounded approach with the movie, for the older fans." But there's this Really Popular Cartoon Show from way back when we were kids, and thus the kids who grew up on that want to see their favorite things represented and will cry bloody murder if they're not. So they try and develop a sort of "best of both" approach to the film, using elements from both the original material as well as the cartoons, but it turns out that such an approach is VERY expensive, and that the brand is so niche the studio doesn't expect to make a ton of money on it. So then someone in accounting raises their hand and says, "Why don't we just dumb it down and make it for little kids, then? It's cheaper." And then the older fans who make up 90% of the audience cry Foul, and insist they either want something "gritty" or "best of both" but definitely NOT another kids' movie... and the whole cycle starts over again with nothing really moving forward.

MOTU, TMNT... it's the exact same circular process, for the exact same reasons. And in both cases, it's a shame. By rights we could've and should've had at least ten good movie for each, by now, considering how popular they are and have been since they were created. There's just the eternal "Who is this movie REALLY for?" and "For God's sake, how much is this gonna cost?!" problems that keep things from ever really getting anywhere.
-----------

I feel like although it's off-topic, this is all VERY relevant to TMNT because the MOTU brand has gone through the exact same issues in its many years of existence (as detailed above). Not "similar" problems, the Exact Same Problems. Grittier origins, got popular through a kiddie cartoon, fractured fanbase, one side wants everything Kiddie and the other wants everything to go back to the roots, thus the brand-holders don't know who the hell they're even marketing to because both sides are extremely vocal about what they Do and Don't Like. They try and re-market it every few years for kids, but kids mostly don't care, but the premise is "silly" so they're afraid to aim for adults despite adults being the bulk of the people who still care. They try to skew things more "adult", but going for the little kids is cheaper (and might sell more toys).

It's all the exact same thing. Like I said, the He-Man fans have a bit more "Live and let live" attitude about the cartoons and stuff vs. the original material, as compared to TMNT fans where it's a never-ending "war" between Purists and Cartoon Fans. But both brands are strong bedfellows, with the same "behind-the-scenes" problems.

They're both completely different and yet Exactly The Same.

[newfan]

Too bad about the movie, I was hoping for a theatrical release but having it at all would be good at this point.
Of the upcoming shows, one is a CGI kids and the Smith series is anime...and older? seen as it continues the old toon story so no kids will be familiar.. don't remember an age rating being mentioned in the info.

I am only familiar with the old toon (okay watched the movie too) and am no expert, got to re-watch a little when I first got Netflix but then they took it off. I remember turning on the TV in the 90's and catching another version, I turned it off shortly after as I didn't like the look of it, though I can't judge on a couple of minutes . I liked the images I saw when I searched the 2000s series though, I may look at that at some point.

[Leo656]

More or less correct, there's going to be an animated reboot AND A Kevin Smith project that allegedly picks up where the original 1980s cartoon left off, aimed at older fans with a more "mature" storyline and might even be rather violent. I guess since the original show didn't have a proper ending, this is an attempt to give it one. The voice cast is absolutely stellar - Mark Hammill, Lena Headley, Kevin Conroy, Sarah Michelle Gellar, just to name a few - but Kevin Smith's history of writing for licensed properties is pretty abysmal. So people WANT to be excited, but Smith's track record is bad. This is the guy who made Batman piss himself, after all. His idea of a "more mature" He-Man series might conflict greatly with what "real fans" want or expect to see.

Again, swap "MOTU" for "TMNT" and "Kevin Smith" for "Seth Rogen", and look where we are! Same exact stuff going on. It's uncanny! I kinda love it, honestly.

- There was indeed a second He-Man cartoon in the early-90s, "The New Adventures of He-Man". It was made by entirely different people than the Filmation series despite ostensibly being set in the same universe, just "a few years later". It abandoned ALL of the Epic Fantasy trapping for a straight-up "Star Wars" ripoff with He-Man following Skeletor into space where they both settled on the planet Primus to have all new adventures - with "Star Wars" being pretty much dead at that time and the Fantasy genre also being on the way out at the end of the 1980s, Mattel felt that there was a hole in the market that they could plug He-Man into and have the "Epic Space Fantasy" market to themselves.

Problem was, the cartoon and toys were TOO drastically different from the originals, so fans like myself really just didn't care about it. It may as well have been a completely brand new thing and not called "He-Man" at all, there was NO common ground between them at all. So both the "New Adventures" cartoon and toy line died a pretty quick death and never came anywhere close to the success of the originals.

Having finally sat down to watch the entire "New Adventures" cartoon series as an adult, it's... "Okay". For what it is, it's fine. It just has so little in common with "real" He-Man that it has almost no appeal for anyone, it's just a thoroughly mediocre Star Wars ripoff. Although it's probably the best Star Wars ripoff ever, I guess? For whatever that's worth. Like I said, it's "fine", but... who is it for? I'unno. As a kid, I just plain hated it. It wasn't even the shift in concept that bothered me - "Conan + Star Wars" to "Just Plain Rip Off Star Wars" was jarring, but the sci-fi fantasy was always in there from Day One. It was just altogether TOO different.

I mean, the toys kinda sucked, and that was a huge deal. They were so much smaller, skinnier, and less fun than the originals. They were so... generic. You couldn't even mix the 1982 He-Man toys with the 1990 He-Man toys, and for me and many kids that just ruined the entire thing. I would have definitely at least bought a couple of the toys if they were in-scale with the originals, that would've been great.

- The 2003 revamp was MUCH better. For many people, it's their all-time favorite version of the MOTU franchise. It was entirely familiar to fans of the original show but left all the silliness in the past (to the point where some people think it's "too serious" and loses some of its charm, but I don't agree with that at all). It's like a perfect blend of the Golden Books and the Filmation cartoon.

I can't say I like it more than the original - I can't really be fully objective about a show I watched two-to-four times a day every single day for five or six f*cking years as a kid, after all - BUT, by any objective measure it IS a much, much better show, it just lacks some of the things that made the original so memorable with kids. And I think anyone who maybe likes the basic concept of "Epic Fantasy + Science Fiction" but thinks that what they've seen of the Filmation cartoon is too goofy, would do well to at least watch the first few episodes of the 2003 cartoon series. If they don't like it, then He-Man simply isn't for them, and that's fine, BUT it does a great job of illustrating that the premise itself need not be "silly", that you can take the exact same premise and characters and do a PG-13 version of it without any trouble at all. It's actually quite a gritty and violent show for a kids' cartoon. I mean, there's no blood, but Keldor (who becomes Skeletor) gets his face melted off with acid in the very first episode and that pretty much sets the tone for the entire series. No goofy stuff here! Frankly, there's SO much action in the series that some people find it exhausting. I don't agree, but it's an opinion.

Once again... it's very thematically similar to what the 4Kids TMNT cartoon did at almost the exact same time. Take the original stuff, mix in some of the older cartoon but not TOO much, polish it up, make it "darker" and more violent, aim it at the fans who were kids back in the 80s and appeal to their sensibilities as young adults, and BAM - Magic Happens. Like I keep saying, it's kinda funny how the two brands are so often in step with one another in so many ways.

What's funny about the 2003 MOTU cartoon, though, is that it's VERY much a toy commercial, WAY more than the original Filmation one ever was. Like there are entire episodes centered around vehicles and "battle armor" variants from the toy line and all'a that stuff. It's very transparent. Doesn't bother me at all, it's just funny... the original show is often derided as a "toy commercial", despite doing a rather poor job of that, while the 2003 cartoon is heralded as being "more mature" while ALSO being a thousand times more blatant at shilling toys within the running time of the episodes. It's amazing!

[newfan]

Kinda sold on checking out 2k3, happy to skip New Adventures.