Toxic masculinity

[Andrew NDB]

Is this a real problem? Do we need to all be more feminine now?

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/metoo-...ry?id=60453218

[Candy Kappa]

I see you don't understand the term "toxic masculinity".

Or it's just another troll thread.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

I see you don't understand the term "toxic masculinity".

Or it's just another troll thread.

No, I do. I legitimately want to understand the movement. Because the opposite of masculinity is...?

And the quacks that are doing this are literally zeroing in on masculinity in general. Not the "toxic" kind.

[Voltron]

False dichotomy. You're misrepresenting the choices available.

First off, the commercial I'm sure that triggered you made it clear that this was urging guys not to be dicks. Not that they should sit around and eat finger sandwiches and gush about their periods.

Second, being masculine doesn't require us to beat each other up, put each other down, molest women, and immediately label a person as a "***" if they don't meet our standards of masculinity.

Or perhaps it does.

We're never given a firm definition of what masculinity is.

I think a better question is: should guys be upset if they're told not to molest co-workers, harass each other online, and bully smaller guys. Because that's what was represented?

Me? I agree. Acting like a chicken-**** pig is unacceptable. True masculinity is in showing respect for yourself and the people around you. It's not telling everyone you have a huge dick and then daring people to fight you for disagreeing. Which is lame.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

False dichotomy. You're misrepresenting the choices available.

First off, the commercial I'm sure that triggered you made it clear that this was urging guys not to be dicks.

It's funny you assume that. I haven't seen any commercials nor do I even really watch TV like that.

I just happened onto this in my normal running, podcast routine.

[Voltron]

So I'm two minutes into the podcast and they've already misrepresented the argument and questioned the veracity of psychology as a whole. Those are some pretty big swings, regardless of the source.

Let me be clear: this is another instance of the media stoking fear and anger.

What's being said is that certain masculine traits are causing a good deal of psychological harm to boys and men. The report Adam and Dr. Drew mention at the beginning is pretty clear from the get go on this.

Males currently suffer:
Harsher punishments
Stricter rules and expectations
Less sympathy for hardships in life
Less resources for psychological or physical abuse in relationships

etc., etc.

The hypothesis is that this stems from something dubbed *toxic* masculinity. The idea that men are supposed to be these tough, unfeeling near-beasts isn't working out very well for us at the moment.

The reason people like to interchange "traditional" with "toxic" is because this is the typical way we, as a society act. And while some people see no problem with this, others are starting to point out a very real issue that is at the forefront of our current political discussion:

Fairness.

As it stands, there's resources out there for minorities and women to get help when they're oppressed, abuse, or discriminated against. And I know a lot of white men or men in general who seem to be tossed out as being "privileged" and therefore just whining.

The core of this argument isn't to defang white cis-males further in a society that already casts them as villains. Instead, it says that boys and men shouldn't be turned away when they reach out for help.

There's a lot of **** that we, as guys, have to put up with that would never fly if done to a different demographic. And that's upsetting, right?

And what's the answer we always get if we demand justice? Be a man. Suck it up. Walk it off.

Men are supposed to be tough, strong, and unemotional. A real man takes what he wants, and dishes out justice when necessary. And who hasn't had a vengeance boner while watching Schwarzenegger or Stallone take out a group of trained killers with nothing but their pecs and a hard stare.

But that's not reality. What happens when you CAN'T do it by yourself?

There's a noted discrepancy in the successful suicide rates in boys and men. We're over represented in prisons. The rapes and sexual abuse go woefully unreported. There's barely any safehouses for men when compared to women.


I doubt anyone would disagree with giving some help where it's needed.

But that's no fun to talk about. We need controversy! We need to show that Western civilization is being destroyed! And so we get buzzfeed and all these other outlets portraying this as "baseball and G.I. Joe are STUPID!" or some other hyped up bull crap that isn't being talked about at all.

Relax. Have a beer, watch some football, go hunting. . . just be cool if your friend says he's suffering from depression and let him get some help without busting his chops for it. Or if you get the urge to pinch a co-worker's butt, maybe don't.

Now, hyper-left wing super vegans can go suck a fat one, because on THAT point, I totally agree with you. Boys tend to be attracted to more physically dangerous things. Football should be left alone. Soldiers will always look cool. Meat will always be delicious. Predator will always be a badass movie.

But that is a small and annoyingly vocal part of the population. The important thing is not to let them dominate the conversation with misinformation and get all worked up about a war that's not really happening. And that's where I stand on that.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Is this a real problem? Do we need to all be more feminine now?

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/metoo-...ry?id=60453218

asking a question about a fake femenist battle cry is an exercise in stupidity at this point, when all the battle lines and opinions are already drawn. people will use the term 'toxic' to describe just about anything they don't like these days.

I really hate those toxic ants and lady bugs during the spring months.

[Jester]

The ironic thing is the more we try to generalize and put people in clusters, the more divided we become. Because individuals don't fit prefabbed boxes. I'm a Male but I could care less about sports, cars, tools, and Schwartzenegger flicks. Does that make me less masculine?

Not all men are pigs who want to hoot and catcall (or worse) women.
Not all "illegals" are drug mules, who are trying to take our jobs AND our government benefits.
Not all Muslims are terrorists.
Not all Republicans are Nazis.
Not all Democrats are Commies.

[IndigoErth]

And to add, not all men and women are the same men and women who men and women are talking about when they b*tch about men or women and if they are not one of those men or women then they really have zero reason to get butthurt as if they were one of those men or women and instead choose to be one of the good men or women and the ally of fellow good men and women who understand that the crappy behavior of some men and women is not healthy for any man or woman and do in fact need to be recognized and addressed by men and women for the betterment of all men and women...



And now that I've probably (and maybe purposely) annoyed you


Voltron and Jester are wise, maybe take their words into consideration...

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Jester

The ironic thing is the more we try to generalize and put people in clusters, the more divided we become. Because individuals don't fit prefabbed boxes. I'm a Male but I could care less about sports, cars, tools, and Schwartzenegger flicks. Does that make me less masculine?

Not all men are pigs who want to hoot and catcall (or worse) women.
Not all "illegals" are drug mules, who are trying to take our jobs AND our government benefits.
Not all Muslims are terrorists.
Not all Republicans are Nazis.
Not all Democrats are Commies.

nice to see at least one person around with common sense.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Masculinity is not toxic in any way. Its a part of feminists' agenda to destroy traditional gender roles and the family structure.

[Vegita-San]

i would only disagree in the fact that I think there IS some examples of 'BAD ' masculinity out there.

million dollar football players trying to act big and tough and phony, for instance. but i don't think it's toxic, especially these days where the straight male is under attack.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

destroy traditional gender roles and the family structure.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

these days where the straight male is under attack.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Jester

The ironic thing is the more we try to generalize and put people in clusters, the more divided we become. Because individuals don't fit prefabbed boxes. I'm a Male but I could care less about sports, cars, tools, and Schwartzenegger flicks. Does that make me less masculine?

Not all men are pigs who want to hoot and catcall (or worse) women.
Not all "illegals" are drug mules, who are trying to take our jobs AND our government benefits.
Not all Muslims are terrorists.
Not all Republicans are Nazis.
Not all Democrats are Commies.

Not only you make funny jokes, but you also have a lot of common sense. Your posts are always good, man. Well said. Of all the things you listed that are stereotypically male, I'm only 50% into them. Sports and Arnold movies. But wouldn't call myself particularly masculine/manly. Funny thing is, though, people sometimes think I might be a manly fit guy because a lot of my favourite fictional characters tend to fit the "manly" stereotype, such as Ryu, Scorpion, Roronoa Zoro, Mechazawa, Kojiro Hyuga, etc. And I also like fictional works that are set in space, have the war setting, etc.

[Leo656]

Men can be sh*tty, but I've never once heard anyone, anywhere, utter the phrase "toxic femininity", except maybe in asking why THAT isn't something more people want to talk about as a problem.

Deny all you please, but the language being used and the images being presented by advertisers and the media is very clear: Women are magical creatures of compassion and wisdom, and men are cruel, sex-feuled apes. If you claim not to notice that trend, you're not paying any attention at all. It's not new. It didn't start with a razor commercial or a bad movie reboot. "Men are Bad, Women are Good" has been a generally accepted "rule" for quite some time, now, maybe even a decade.

The very first time I ever heard anything like it was a little over ten years ago, when Sally Field won some award. It was during the Iraq war, and during her acceptance speech she said some nonsense like, "And if women and mothers ran the world, there wouldn't be any wars in the first place!" And all the newspapers were talking about it for a few days, because it was a highly questionable thing to assert so strongly. I strongly disagree with her, because 90% of my very large family is women, so I have a *little* bit of experience being around them, and I have more often seen "grown-ups" go right to pulling hair and throwing punches over borrowed clothing, or, more subtly, one woman greeting another as a "best friend", complete with hugs and kisses, only to immediately go on a long rant about what a "bitch" or "skank" they are upon the other woman leaving the immediate area. It is ludicrous to me to imply that women are, in any way, "better" or "more compassionate" than men. They treat each other terribly, so I find it very hard to believe that a world run by women would be one free of war or conflict. But, that's what we're supposed to believe.

I doubt it started with one awards show speech, but right around that time was when I noticed deeper "battle lines" being drawn, and a lot of women agreeing with the sentiment that men are simply evil pigs by default, violent rapists by their very nature, who need to make reparations for centuries of mishandling the planet. It's a laughable concept, but all you have to do is peek at HuffPo to see that many people truly do believe it.

I don't have a problem with the Gillette commercial, other than it's a goofy way to try and sell razors, which are a product everyone needs and so I don't understand why they are separately marketed by gender, anyway, other than to sell them to men for much higher prices. If Gillette were serious about erasing gender divides, or not making one gender look Good and the other Bad, they'd simply only make razor products in one neutral color and insist ALL of their products be sold in the same aisle, for the same price. That's called "fairness and equality", and that's how you promote it without alienating big chunks of your audience by fumbling some "message". Again, I get what they were going for, but clearly they shot themselves in the foot by being totally out of touch with the people who actually buy their products. I don't shave, I buzz with a Remington about once a week, so they're not hurting MY feelings, but I definitely chuckled a little bit at the commercial. It's about as subtle as a brick. Again, in this day and age, it would make more sense to make their products LESS divided. Get rid of the old slogan entirely, stop aiming predominantly towards men in their advertising at all, and especially don't act like using a specific brand of razor is going to make you a gentler, more compassionate male. That would have been a much more "21st Century" approach, no?

People overreacting to the commercial are being a bit silly, but, to be fair, it's a pretty silly commercial.

Meanwhile, as I said earlier, men can be sh*tty, for sure. But so are women, and a lot of it is supposed to be "part of who they are", as well. Ever know a girl who kept a man around by lying about being pregnant? Got higher grades or a job promotion by flirting with the teacher/boss? Made a false accusation of abuse? Physically attacked a male with violence and full intent to injure, emboldened by the knowledge that "they can't hit me back"? Cheated on a partner and justified it with "They're not treating me the way I feel I deserve"?

I have seen tons of that sh*t, and yet, have NEVER heard the phrase "Toxic Femininity". As long as that is something people keep refusing to talk about as part of the larger conversation, any discussion of "Toxic Masculinity" is NOT a conversation, it's an attack. Because it implies that only ONE group of people are capable of sh*tty behavior, and places 100% of the blame and responsibility to "be better" on ONE group rather than on everyone.

There simply is no "progress" unless a conversation goes both ways. How about just "Toxic HUMANITY"? Get rid of all labels and just Be Real. Until then, any one-sided conversation is an attack, no matter what you try and spin it as.

[Vegita-San]

bingo. we are in a time where men are evil pigs and women can do no wrong. yet toxic femininity is much more dangerous these days. and more prevalent.

[Leo656]

I'm kinda old. I've been abused, assaulted, cheated on and belittled. I've had women much larger than me assault me with fists and draw blood, only to bawl and cry victim upon being shoved against the wall in an act of self-preservation. I've been taken to court and had to pay fines because of things like that, or even, in one case, the woman was threatening me with a board full of nails - in front of the police who ***I*** called on HER - only to be cuffed upon me saying "Put that thing down before I break it over your head." She'd loudly threatened me with the same thing, which is why I called the cops, and she was just as belligerent in their presence. I lost my temper and said a dumb thing, in response to her Very Real Threats - she'd attacked me before - but nonetheless, the punishment was all mine. "You can't say things like that to a woman, even if they say it to you." Horse sh*t.

I ended up paying a bigger fine for Angry Words, than my wife had to pay for actually stabbing another woman in the face (although it was self-defense). I'm not kidding, I paid over a thousand dollars because I got fed up with a woman's threats and yelled at her; my wife stabbed a bitch (who deserved it, don't get me wrong) and paid a bit more than half of what I had to pay.

These situations happened because of a firm belief that women are "allowed" to be sh*tty, because to correct them is "abuse". No, you threaten or assault people, you take your medicine. If I push someone, I duck, because I expect them to hit me back. I deserve to be hit back if I hit someone. I have no right to cry about the conflict I started just because I got put in my place. Men understand that. Many women don't.

That is not "toxic" anything. It's an understanding about treating ANY human being with exactly the respect they have or have not earned. But I would argue that creating conflict or violence and then demanding nobody can retaliate by hiding behind "I'm a woman!" is just one example of many that I would cite as "Toxic Femininity".

Which some will still claim can't exist, and refuse to acknowledge as a very real problem.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

yet toxic femininity is much more dangerous these days. and more prevalent.

Literally there have been too many incidences of girls and women murdered because they weren't interested or wanted to end the relationship.

A 13-year-old girl recently was found alive after managing to escape from the adult man who saw her one day, wanted her, and decided that it would be perfectly fine to murder her parents and take her, as if property that can just be stolen. She's one of the lucky ones to get out alive, we all know too often such victims don't, but even then she still goes home to the fact that her family was brutally murdered because...he wanted her and apparently felt entitled to what he wanted.

What is it that has the power of making "toxic masculinity" less bad even in the face of murder?



And for **** sake, people in this country have GOT TO STOP with this "if they're talking about a gender subject and using the word TOXIC then they must be insulting me!" bullcrap. I mean, just why? Is it just convenient to have something to get outraged about?

"Toxic" people are kind of inherently nutjobs. And if anyone actually has ANY open understanding on what is actually in fact meant by those topics (and too often it really seems people don't truly get it), I would HOPE that the larger majority of people around here are better than that.

And yes, of course there are awful women out there. Women are human, and some humans are awful and all terrible and toxic and abusive behavior needs to be held accountable for all people. But men and women who are not those people also need to learn to be a team, not just dividing by gender demographics, and have each other's backs and LISTEN rather than just defend behaviors of people we should not want to be anything like.

[Leo656]

In answer to your question and without speaking for anyone else, as I have said, from my perspective it's because toxic behavior is universal, yet people only get headlines by putting everything on men. Men are the problem. Men have to be better. Not everybody, Just Men. Nobody made a razor commercial or a podcast about "Toxic Femininity" or "Toxic Humanity".

Why haven't they? Because, as usual, discussing Real Problems and Real Solutions isn't as simple as laying blame.

I read horror stories in the news, too. Like one from several years ago about a woman who lured a little girl into a van, where she and her husband or boyfriend both raped and then murdered her. Neither of them showed any remorse, and the woman admitted to taunting the girl as she was being raped. Prosecutors were aghast more at the woman's cruelty in the situation than her husband's, because it's "unthinkable" to most people that women would be so cruel. See, rape and murder is "men's behavior". Except it's not.

That's the problem I have with this conversation and what it implies. People generally dismiss horror stories such as the above cited because they're statistically less frequent, whereas I look at it as simple proof that Evil is real and knows no gender.

If we aren't ready to honestly admit that human beings, by nature, are horrible, and capable of cruelty and deceit regardless of which chromosome they carry, we're not in any position to be putting the impetus on only half the species to "be better". That's why it's "an attack"; because it's a one-sided conversation.

[Sumac]

"Toxic masculinity" is definitely a thing.

And it basically sex-based racism, as it assumes that women are beings of the lesser class than men.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with adhering to masculine and feminine stereotypes to some degree, but basing your whole existence around them and making them the centerpiece of your being and lifestyle are unhealthy and stupid.