Marvel incorporating DC

[Galactus]

Aren't the people peddling this the same people that said that Marvel itself was going to stop publishing completely a few years ago? Neither company is going to stop publishing anytime soon nor do I see any merger between them either.

Now that being said if it were to happen I'd like the universes kept separate and treated much like the classic DC set up were he had Earth 1 & Earth 2 etc. It's not exactly portrayed as hard in either companies continuities for characters to move from one universe to another you could easily have normal guest appearances as well as full blown crossovers.

[Leo656]

Regarding the whole "public domain" thing, it should be pointed out that corporate lawyers have a lot more pull nowadays than they did a hundred years ago.

Mickey Mouse was technically supposed to be a public domain character by now, but he's not and he never will be. Most popular fictional characters who've since fallen into public domain were originally owned by families, usually descendants of the creators, not by corporations. Families don't have money to lobby to get the laws changed in their favor. Corporations do.

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and Iron Man will ever become public domain, no matter how it's "supposed" to work. Disney, for example, sues children's hospitals for putting a mural on the wall if it features their trademarked characters; they'd fight to the bitter end to keep people from ever being able to profit from their Captain America fanfiction.

Forget what's "supposed" to happen. It ain't happening. Those characters are worth way too much to Disney and WB, respectively. They'd never let them go. Laws are just words on paper.

Frankly, as anti-corporation as I am in general... that's probably a good thing. Consider all the truly awful fanfic that exists of these characters, and then consider the possibility that these people might be allowed to get PAID for it one day. That would pretty much be a disaster.

[sdp]

No extension on copyright, Mickey will be public domain in just 3 years. After many years thing are finally becoming public domain again since about 2 years ago, no more extentions. DC and WB stuff might take a few more years, I believe 15 years before the likes of Batman enter public domain.

This will only be the original interpretations that won't be protected, so anything not steamboat willie is still Disney, also like Tarzan while technically public domain the Burroughs Estate still has control of the trademark, so there's plenty companies can protect despite their characters becoming public domain. You don't see Disney caring for other version's of public domain characters like the Snow White or Aladdin since they aren't Disney's versions. The batman we know today is very different from the one we see in Detective Comics etc.

Also, just read up on AT&T and their plans for Warner Media, DC is not going anywhere, this whole topic is silly. They literally bought Time Warner for their properties and taunt them at every moment they can.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Aren't the people peddling this the same people that said that Marvel itself was going to stop publishing completely a few years ago?

Yup, and there's always been "gloom and doom" in fandom about the hobby going under. ALWAYS. But the difference nowadays is that as my generation (that would be Gen X) leaves comics behind the hobby is faced with a significantly declining readership. Kids aren't buying comics the way they did in generations past. For example, go to a convention nowadays. It used to be middle aged comic book nerds, families with kids, and clusters of teenagers with their friends. Who is missing now? The clusters of teenagers. Sure, sure you might find a convention, or a store and see some examples of the younger, independent demographic, but those occurrences are nowhere in the volumes it was when I was a kid.

Also, the prolific injection of SJW themes, replacement characters via agenda (as perceived by the readership which has been abandoning the books), and endless renumbering has alienated an otherwise hardcore buyer. John Jackson Miller measures sales metrics on his ComicChron website. There, the data has illustrated a year-over-year decline in new book buying. And what's worse is that revenue is up amidst this decline in units sold. Why is revenue being up a problem, you ask? Well that means is that publishers are raising prices and creating more "boutique" products to make that money. That's not good for sustainability - instead that's a cash grab.

And so the point is that while I think the "Marvel buying DC" thing is extreme sensationalism, I also believe that the comic industry is unsustainable in it's current model. We are setup for some bankruptcies, restructuring and big, as-of-yet-unrecognizable changes in the current publishing paradigm in the immediate years.

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

No, I don't know anything but yes there's odd rumors of this or that that I don't really put any stock in.

But still. What if this happened?

I hate to say I told you so, but again...

Originally Posted by TommyT

If you want real gossip, the latest is that DC itself may fold into Disney, with a Merger of DC and Marvel.

Sounds absurd, but I've heard this twice in the last two weeks. Hard to imagine, but it's apparently only DC, and their IP's.

I'll share more if I hear it.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Who do you think you are, the Vergeben of the Technodrome?

Ahem...
Can you hear me NOW?

[ZariusTwo]

Comics nerds often accuse the publishers, editors, and writers of being 'out of touch' but when it comes to the state of the market...oooh boy

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Comics nerds often accuse the publishers, editors, and writers of being 'out of touch' but when it comes to the state of the market...oooh boy

Lol, meaning?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by TommyT

Lol, meaning?

I'm saying they're just as out of touch not to see the diminishing returns in the industry and insisting all is well.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Running two separate universes would be far too taxing and cost way too much money for any publisher. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that marvel would keep an entire line of DC books running if they acquired the whole shebang. It just doesn't make good business sense.

Again, WWF promised they'd run WCW as a completely separate company with its own management and infrastructure, simply being owned by the same corporation, and that it would only cross-over with the WWF brand very rarely for special events. In about 5 minutes they realized that would cost way too much money and be way too much hassle, so they scrapped it and erased the WCW brand entirely. To this day, people ask them to bring it back as a separate company, the way they did with ECW for a while, but they're very open about the fact that there's no money in doing so (and that the ECW "revival" was a giant failure) and it would be a giant hassle, thus it will never, ever happen.

Obviously it's a different business, but it is still the entertainment business, and the point remains that it's a ton of work for no real payoff to run separate brands which do the same exact thing under one corporate umbrella. It's much easier (and cheaper) to simply fold everything into one brand, cherry-pick the stuff that actually makes money, and trim off the rest.

DC themselves actually used to try and keep the Captain Marvel/Fawcett stuff as a separate line back in the 70s and 80s, but they stopped it because it was more trouble than it was worth; they simply shelved the character(s) for a few years until they had Crisis as a convenient way to fold him into the "real" DCU. If running ONE character as its own separate brand within the DC infrastructure was too much of a headache, I can't see any company running two "separate-but-equal" lines of a few hundred characters each. Even Marvel's been having problems in the print division, themselves. Who's to say they'd even WANT to run two separate brands?

I don't know, man. I've seen way too many of these kinds of things go down in the entertainment business, and it always ends the same: The bigger fish swallows the little fish, they don't co-exist. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but as always, I'm cynical in all things, simply because I've seen too much go down to ever be otherwise.

No, there would certainly be less books, and less exposure to obscure favorite characters. I agree 100%. That's just the nature of conglomeration.

But not to the extreme that all your favorite characters are given the boot, other than a select few who get to stick around as scapegoats and pariahs.
Two very different things.

Batman, for one, would have the red carpet rolled out. Everyone in Marvel's stable would be dying to write/draw the first Marvel Batman book. There'd be no mandate to have Black Widow mention how Tony Stark has a better body or bigger brain. Bruce would be instant royalty.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I'm saying they're just as out of touch not to see the diminishing returns in the industry and insisting all is well.

But who is insisting all is well? Where?

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I don't see this happening...at all. There's also the rumor of AT&T either shutting DC Comics down or selling them off. If DC isn't profitable for them, I can definitely see AT&T wanting to sell them to a better company, which might be the better option. I doubt Disney would buy them, though. Can you imagine if Viacom or CBS bought them?

If DC were to shut down, AT&T still own the rights to their characters. More then likely would continue exploring media outside comics. In their eyes, the comics have not been profitable for them.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

No, there would certainly be less books, and less exposure to obscure favorite characters. I agree 100%. That's just the nature of conglomeration.

But not to the extreme that all your favorite characters are given the boot, other than a select few who get to stick around as scapegoats and pariahs.
Two very different things.

Batman, for one, would have the red carpet rolled out. Everyone in Marvel's stable would be dying to write/draw the first Marvel Batman book. There'd be no mandate to have Black Widow mention how Tony Stark has a better body or bigger brain. Bruce would be instant royalty.

Favorites? No DC character is anyone's "favorite" outside of the Trinity, give or take an Aquaman or Green Lantern. I love DC with all my heart and soul and I have a strong affection for just about anyone not named Snapper Carr or Damien Wayne, but I'm an extreme example of a DC fan. Most people generally can't really name more than 5 DC characters, and they jump to spin-offs like Superboy and Batgirl almost immediately if challenged to do so. Nobody even knew who Shazam/Captain Marvel was until last year, and judging by the box office I think most people probably still don't know.

As I said, IF it happened you'd definitely see the primary ones like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman get a pretty big push. I don't think anyone doubts that. But we'd definitely be saying goodbye to your Legion of Super-Heroes, your Teen Titans, your Hawkmans and all that stuff. No money in it. DC struggles to make anyone outside of the Trinity relevant to their audience as it is; another publisher wouldn't suddenly jump at the chance to make people suddenly care about Lightning Lad, just to pluck a random name. If people don't care after 50 years, they're not gonna.

Basically, any character who never kept a solo book past 20 issues would be swept into the ether, guaranteed. And no teams whatsoever because Marvel has too many of those already. Sure, in theory they could trim off a few X-books to make room for something like Titans, but... c'mon.

[CyberCubed]

So why do people assume they'd sell DC particularly? What about Warner Brothers or Time Warner as a whole? That would include Bugs Bunny, Scooby Doo, The Flintstones, Jetsons, all the Hanna Barbera stuff....hell even Cartoon Network as a whole. They'd get every major cartoon of the last 50 years.

[sdp]

Because they're idiots who don't understand business or the fact that AT&T bought Time Warner to have all these characters and they're extensively being used in their marketing and future plans.

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by sdp

Because they're idiots who don't understand business or the fact that AT&T bought Time Warner to have all these characters and they're extensively being used in their marketing and future plans.

My Dad once bought a snowblower. It sat in the garage for about 3 years. He didn’t really like it, never really saw the value. He eventually sold it to the family down the street, the kids all made money in the winter ploughing driveways. They paid less than market value, with the promise of doing his driveway for free. He got to sleep in when it snowed, and used the cash to take a trip to Maui.

Dc is going buh bye.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So why do people assume they'd sell DC particularly? What about Warner Brothers or Time Warner as a whole? That would include Bugs Bunny, Scooby Doo, The Flintstones, Jetsons, all the Hanna Barbera stuff....hell even Cartoon Network as a whole. They'd get every major cartoon of the last 50 years.

Most likely because those other IP's aren't hemorrhaging publication money and haven't failed repeatedly on film. What DC does have going for it is other multimedia. Games, animation.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TommyT

Dc is going buh bye.

DC as we knew it, anyway. I wish I cared. This is all their fault.

[TommyT]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Most likely because those other IP's aren't hemorrhaging publication money and haven't failed repeatedly on film. What DC does have going for it is other multimedia. Games, animation.

Yeah, but just barely. Look at IDW, its failing. DC, failing. Animation squeaks by, made without any bells or whistles, on a shoestring budget.

Everybody talks like they know the numbers. No, they know how they feel about a childhood hero, but they don’t see the larger picture. The sales are 30k to 40k for most middle tier books, with the bulk of issues selling less than 15k.
Cost of printing is 4-7 thousand dollars for 20k books. Books retail for 3-4$ only 40% is gross profit. From that, you have to pay the team. Artist demand anywhere from 120- 300 a page. Colorists are on top of that. Cover art, editor, writer, plus anybody else in the office. The coffee in the corner, the lights, tech support... its a whole thing.

Do the Math. If this recipe doesn’t pay off in useful new IP, it has virtually no real value to its owners. What percentage is 30k readers in a country of 350 million?

AT&T is not a non profit.

BOP has COST them an insane amount. The damage goes far deeper than just a lack if ticket sales. The pre sales of licenses for anyone creating product around this film, are out money. Heaps of product will never see recoupment.
Thats not only egg on their face, thats a loss of confidence in the product, on the heels of BVS, suicide squad, justice league, green lantern, the list is long.

WB no longer knows how to make use of these icons, has instead virtually destroyed them.

Theres no longer a valid argument to invest in the fruit of a poisoned tree.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Favorites? No DC character is anyone's "favorite" outside of the Trinity, give or take an Aquaman or Green Lantern. I love DC with all my heart and soul and I have a strong affection for just about anyone not named Snapper Carr or Damien Wayne, but I'm an extreme example of a DC fan. Most people generally can't really name more than 5 DC characters, and they jump to spin-offs like Superboy and Batgirl almost immediately if challenged to do so. Nobody even knew who Shazam/Captain Marvel was until last year, and judging by the box office I think most people probably still don't know.

As I said, IF it happened you'd definitely see the primary ones like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman get a pretty big push. I don't think anyone doubts that. But we'd definitely be saying goodbye to your Legion of Super-Heroes, your Teen Titans, your Hawkmans and all that stuff. No money in it. DC struggles to make anyone outside of the Trinity relevant to their audience as it is; another publisher wouldn't suddenly jump at the chance to make people suddenly care about Lightning Lad, just to pluck a random name. If people don't care after 50 years, they're not gonna.

Basically, any character who never kept a solo book past 20 issues would be swept into the ether, guaranteed. And no teams whatsoever because Marvel has too many of those already. Sure, in theory they could trim off a few X-books to make room for something like Titans, but... c'mon.

- Plenty of people have favorite DC characters.

- nothing wrong with having an affinity towards Superboy or Batgirl. They've been explored and included in the pantheon for a while now. Not my personal favorites, but they are cool characters. My favorite DC characters to read about do tend to fall outside of the Trinity as well - Batman, Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol, Constantine, Joker, Dr. Fate, Deadman, Catwoman, plus all the Verigo stuff, which is in essence, a bit of an offshoot but still under the DC label.

So, yeah, if you're looking forward to seeing Marvel characters monologue endlessly about how Batman is just a second-rate Iron Man and that Superman is just an alien invader unworthy of anyone's trust, for example, then great, that's what we'd have to expect. I for one would puke.

- you said that we should prepare to see our beloved DC characters lambasted and put down by Marvel characters. I disagreed. Batman for instance, would be a Marvel king.
I don't see Marvel acting petty towards any of these characters or making "jobbers" out of them. Sounds sort of silly to me, tbh.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by TommyT

Yeah, but just barely. Look at IDW, its failing. DC, failing. Animation squeaks by, made without any bells or whistles, on a shoestring budget.

Everybody talks like they know the numbers. No, they know how they feel about a childhood hero, but they don’t see the larger picture. The sales are 30k to 40k for most middle tier books, with the bulk of issues selling less than 15k.
Cost of printing is 4-7 thousand dollars for 20k books. Books retail for 3-4$ only 40% is gross profit. From that, you have to pay the team. Artist demand anywhere from 120- 300 a page. Colorists are on top of that. Cover art, editor, writer, plus anybody else in the office. The coffee in the corner, the lights, tech support... its a whole thing.

Do the Math. If this recipe doesn’t pay off in useful new IP, it has virtually no real value to its owners. What percentage is 30k readers in a country of 350 million?

AT&T is not a non profit.

BOP has COST them an insane amount. The damage goes far deeper than just a lack if ticket sales. The pre sales of licenses for anyone creating product around this film, are out money. Heaps of product will never see recoupment.
Thats not only egg on their face, thats a loss of confidence in the product, on the heels of BVS, suicide squad, justice league, green lantern, the list is long.

WB no longer knows how to make use of these icons, has instead virtually destroyed them.

Theres no longer a valid argument to invest in the fruit of a poisoned tree.

These are fair points, regarding the "egg in their face" but it ignores all the success they've had, which is even more recent than most of the failures. Hitting 1 billion with a "nobody" like Aquaman, than pushing past 1 billion with an R-rated movie for the first time in history, with Joker. The praise for Wonder Woman, and even Shazaam, despite it's relatively low box-office. I know you are trying to get a point across, but that isn't showing the full picture. There should be quite a bit of confidence in these properties right now at WB.