Dragon Ball Super Episode Discussion Topic

[samxsteal]

Originally Posted by Allio

Yeah, sad to say the dragon ball franchise isn't exactly "quality" story telling.

I wouldn't go that far. This movie had much better story telling than alot of the previous dragon Ball movies. IMHO

[Allio]

I mean outside of some of the original aspects such as with Broly/Frieza it is essentially a Frankenstein script of a few dbz films. Not saying it's bad any means, top Five dbz films at least...but that's taking into account most of them are garbage.

[sdp]

I was thinking of watching DBSuper but man it feels so ridiculous and not fun. Fan fic at best. Somehow the DB Heroes which unapologetically goes for fan service is looks more appealing and seems more in line of how ridiculous DBZ would've continued instead of Super which just feels like a rehash. I'm just basing this off of plot descriptions.
Or will my opinion completely change once I watch it?

[CyberCubed]

Watch the two movies, skip the episode adaptions of the Beerus movie and Freeza movie (it's more or less the same story with worse animation, watch the training eps inbetween, and then watch the rest of the show.

Super takes awhile to get going but I enjoyed the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power.

[ZariusTwo]

I know it's fan made and was one of the earliest urban myths in the anime/manga industry, but I was always a Dragonball AF buff. That dates me.

[neatoman]

I would say the biggest Super has is that it has this weird obsession with trying to emulate the pacing of Z. Of course, the pacing of Z was atrocious and the only excuse for it was the fact that it needed to be slow in order to stay behind the manga. Super, while there is a manga, is based on the same outline rather than a direct adaptation. The Super anime could have made the Tournament arc like 10 episodes (or any arc of the show really), there was literally no need to make it over 30 but they did it anyway because that is what Z would have done. Of all the things people liked about Z, I don't ever think the pacing was one of them.

[Coola Yagami]

Apparently a new Super movie is coming next year with another surprise character. It got me curious because now we won't know if this will fit before or after all the Moro stuff AND the current Super manga arc.

[CyberCubed]

Outside the Namek saga the pacing of DBZ never bothered me. I love all the training eps in the Saiyan saga, it really makes you feel Gohan, Goku and the others are all learning and growing stronger.

The Cell saga and Boo saga seperated things into separate arcs so even when there was filler it didn't even feel like it most of the time.

It's really only the Namek arc particularly when Goku/Freeza start fighting that the pacing of DBZ is hard to sit through.

[neatoman]

Maybe the pacing bothers me more because I didn't really watch the anime until well after I read the manga twice over (at least, I might have read it more times). However, any fool can see the idiotic episode that is literally just Cell and Gohan firing off a continous energy beam at each other, which started in the previous episode and wouldn't end until the next, is an example of horrible pacing. DBZ as it is has 291 episodes but if they were to remake the whole thing from scratch it would probably be closer to 70.

[ssjup81]

Once again, I forgot about Dragon Ball Super, until this thread popped up. I didn't even see the response to my initial post in this thread. I do remember the first movie was out in Japanese theaters. So I guess watching the movie, and then skipping the recap eps is a place one could start...but I'm not sure if I can garner up enough interest to either watch the show or those movies. Last week, due to nostalgia, I am watching DBZ, but in Japanese. Some things I didn't notice before or catch before, like the fact that Gohan, at age 4, was attending juku. That kid was definitely smarter than I realized and him doing random math equations to pass the time during the Saiya-jin Saga while missing Chichi and Goku was adorable...and yeah, that kid was doing some high-level math. No wonder Chichi was on him about him studying and given how Gohan seems to fight when put into the situation to and the fact that he admitted that he enjoyed studying (but not all subjects), I really do believe him when he says he wants to be a scholar when he grows up. Anyway, on the Namekian Saga now. Just got up to the Ginyu's and man...it's interesting what I can catch now. Their names make more sense to me now. lol

Ignoring all that, with what some have said about Super, I'm a bit hesitant to watch. It's more toned down now, right, given that it air(s/ed) in an earlier slot than the original show, right? I remember while over in Japan, Dragon Ball Kai aired on Sunday mornings (9:00 iirc) and I did catch a couple of eps during the Namek saga. Oh, in Super, there's also SSJ Blue and Goku Black and SSJ God mode or something, right? IMO, for GT (which I know isn't technically canon), but I felt SSJ4 was ridiculous.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Outside the Namek saga the pacing of DBZ never bothered me. I love all the training eps in the Saiyan saga, it really makes you feel Gohan, Goku and the others are all learning and growing stronger.

It's really only the Namek arc particularly when Goku/Freeza start fighting that the pacing of DBZ is hard to sit through.

The Namek Saga I think was okay with the pacing, but going into the Freiza Saga part of that, the pacing was horrible. Five more minutes until Namek blows up! 20 episodes later, 4.5 minutes, until the planet blows up. lol

Originally Posted by neatoman

Maybe the pacing bothers me more because I didn't really watch the anime until well after I read the manga twice over (at least, I might have read it more times). However, any fool can see the idiotic episode that is literally just Cell and Gohan firing off a continous energy beam at each other, which started in the previous episode and wouldn't end until the next, is an example of horrible pacing. DBZ as it is has 291 episodes but if they were to remake the whole thing from scratch it would probably be closer to 70.

Well, to be fair, the manga was running at the same time as the original anime. Dragon Ball had pacing problems too for some parts. The manga started in 1984 and the anime started in 1986. DBZ started in 1989 and went on until the mid-90s. They had to find ways to keep the anime ahead. IMO, Dragon Ball or Z in general, would've benefited from having more anime-original stuff tossed in, which it did, but stretching out canon arcs in the way Z did, like padding out a fight, was a bit bothersome at times.

[neatoman]

I have a question for anyone who watched Dragon Ball or Z before reading the manga, could you tell there was something weird going on? Like when Gohan ran away from Piccolo and hung out with some orphans for a while, only to go back to the training grounds as if nothing happened, could tell something wasn't quite right? That's just one example, I could have picked that time Goku helped some random backwater dojo or the return of Garlic Jr., there are plenty of filler episodes.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I have a question for anyone who watched Dragon Ball or Z before reading the manga, could you tell there was something weird going on? Like when Gohan ran away from Piccolo and hung out with some orphans for a while, only to go back to the training grounds as if nothing happened, could tell something wasn't quite right? That's just one example, I could have picked that time Goku helped some random backwater dojo or the return of Garlic Jr., there are plenty of filler episodes.

As for the orphan kids thing, no, didn't think much of it. I liked how it characterized Gohan there. It reemphasized how much he missed his mother and home, but once he had the opportunity to return, he realized that he had to fight to save everyone. Also, he didn't run away from Piccolo, really. He was always trying to find his way home. Piccolo found Gohan near his home and realized he couldn't run away. That 6-month period was up and he survived. I figured that was a character growth moment for Gohan.

[Slade]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I have a question for anyone who watched Dragon Ball or Z before reading the manga, could you tell there was something weird going on? Like when Gohan ran away from Piccolo and hung out with some orphans for a while, only to go back to the training grounds as if nothing happened, could tell something wasn't quite right? That's just one example, I could have picked that time Goku helped some random backwater dojo or the return of Garlic Jr., there are plenty of filler episodes.

I probably read the manga from beginning to end of Z about 5 or 6 years ago. I didn't see all of the episodes in order for a long time. All toonami would play was up to the Freeza saga, but I learned about all the filler and what was "canon and non canon" before I made it through the Cell saga. I imagine if I hadn't known, it would have seen pretty weird for sure. Especially the Garlic Jr. filler.


As far as Super goes. I say just dive into it. Watch the movies for Battle of Gods and Resurrection F then jump to the stuff with Hit, then to the Zamasu/Black arc then the Tournament of Power, then Broly and you'll be set.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, it did feel weird, and also given how the show lived flashback and callbacks it stood out that they never remembered stuff that happened in those 'time-waster' episodes.

Like for example, those space orphans that mentioned Freeza to Krillin and Gohan. When they finally saw Freeza I noticed there was never a line or reaction like 'that's the guy those kids told us about!'

And other weird examples that I can't think of off the top of my head.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

As for the orphan kids thing, no, didn't think much of it. I liked how it characterized Gohan there. It reemphasized how much he missed his mother and home, but once he had the opportunity to return, he realized that he had to fight to save everyone. Also, he didn't run away from Piccolo, really. He was always trying to find his way home. Piccolo found Gohan near his home and realized he couldn't run away. That 6-month period was up and he survived. I figured that was a character growth moment for Gohan.

So you didn't figure it was designed to be pointless and easily ignored? Because part of the reason I picked that one as an example is because it was intended to be character development but it was ignored when it turned out Gohan didn't develop much in the manga beyond learning not to cry all the time.

I was thinking about bringing up how odd it was to have Vegeta leave earth twice between Namek and the Androids but I figured that was more my perspective from being very familiar with the manga before watching the show. Having him do so doesn't really contradict the manga in any meaningful way, it's just that I had no reason to assume he would. He is wished to earth along with everyone else, he's on earth when Trunks shows up and he's on earth when the androids attack, this all we see of him and he never mentions leaving earth. In fact, he must have been on earth between Trunks warning them about the androids and the androids showing up because... Baby making... As well as the explicit mention that he lived at capsule corp, not travelling space, at this point. And I'm pretty sure he even asked Bulma's dad to build him a gravity room so why would he even need to leave earth?

So having him beat up Freeza's troops to find Goku and train against asteroids until he became Super Saiyan was weird to me. The only impression the manga gave me is that he lived with Bulma, ****ed her on the side, trained in the gravity room and presumably became a super saiyan in that room. Why would I ever have been under the impression that he left earth?

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by neatoman

So you didn't figure it was designed to be pointless and easily ignored? Because part of the reason I picked that one as an example is because it was intended to be character development but it was ignored when it turned out Gohan didn't develop much in the manga beyond learning not to cry all the time.

No, because I saw the show long before I read the manga. Sailor Moon is another one where I saw the show before I was able to read the manga, but I saw the first part of SM's DiC dub first in the mid 90s and then read the manga back in 2000 while also watching the series subbed. There are some things the 90s anime did that I preferred to the manga and there are some things included in DB/DBZ's anime that wasn't in the manga that I liked. The episode with the orphan village, for instance, I personally really liked. Gohan thinking about those kids and what the Saiya-jin coming were planning, gave him the resolve to put his own need and wants aside, to train with Piccolo. It was a character building moment for him as he also realized that he shouldn't take his life for granted (having parents and, up until the most recent events, a pretty privileged life). The only thing I did dislike was the abruptness of it ending wise, with the oldest kid realizing that there wasn't anything he could do for them and let them get caught as he realized that most of the things the kids did want, were things that the adults actually could provide.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Maybe the pacing bothers me more because I didn't really watch the anime until well after I read the manga twice over (at least, I might have read it more times). However, any fool can see the idiotic episode that is literally just Cell and Gohan firing off a continous energy beam at each other, which started in the previous episode and wouldn't end until the next, is an example of horrible pacing. DBZ as it is has 291 episodes but if they were to remake the whole thing from scratch it would probably be closer to 70.

Gohan vs. Cell is 100 times better in the anime than the manga. In the manga it's over too fast with a single beam.

The anime has a lot of drama of Gohan and Cell struggling to overcome each other, with the human characters and Piccolo helping out to attack Cell (in the manga they just stand there on the sidelines not doing anything), and Goku's speech to Gohan and Gohan finally letting go. It's one of the changes to the anime I approve of 100%.

[sdp]

The Garlic Jr saga is in the anime and flashbacks to the movie but the movie doesn't fit into canon. People will go the easy route and say "that's a filler" saga so it doesn't count". But why not? Just because it complicates things? It's part of the story not to mention Krilling's ex Maron shows up in the Buu saga as well.

Also all the movies are also definitely canon to GT, which I guess people will say it's "not canon" but it is far less ridiculous than blue super saiyan jin god super saiyan jin ultra instinct BS.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Watch the two movies, skip the episode adaptions of the Beerus movie and Freeza movie (it's more or less the same story with worse animation, watch the training eps inbetween, and then watch the rest of the show.

Super takes awhile to get going but I enjoyed the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power.

I watched the first movie with Beerus years ago, it was a fun movie to watch since it had been so long since we got anything Dragon Ball that was new. But then they went with the super saiyan rainbow colors and the more i read on it the more ridiculous it seems. Like Toriyama just barely remembering how power ups worked in DBZ and just throwing new power ups every few arcs, it's ridiculous.
We don't get to see anything that DBZ's original ending hinted at like Uub and Trunks/Gotens are still kids. GT had more guts in actually aging up the characters and continuing the story in different ways.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by sdp

The Garlic Jr saga is in the anime and flashbacks to the movie but the movie doesn't fit into canon. People will go the easy route and say "that's a filler" saga so it doesn't count". But why not? Just because it complicates things? It's part of the story not to mention Krilling's ex Maron shows up in the Buu saga as well.

I hated the Garlic Jr. Saga and I don't even remember why. I knew it was anime-original, though, and non-canon. I did like some eps before the whole Android Saga stuff started up, like Goku and Piccolo learning how to drive. It was lighthearted and fun, and funny. That type of filler I didn't mind and, seriously, when Marron referred to Chichi as an old lady and they had to hold her back, please tell me it didn't look like she was using Kaio Ken. lol Anyway, the Garlic Jr. saga was just bad and should have been an OVA or something. They could have come up with something better that wasn't connected to one of the movies that isn't even canon to the series. I'm rewatching Z...and I probably will watch the Garlic Jr. Saga when i come to it since I don't remember much about it, just that I disliked it.

Also all the movies are also definitely canon to GT, which I guess people will say it's "not canon" but it is far less ridiculous than blue super saiyan jin god super saiyan jin ultra instinct BS.

Well, GT really isn't canon, technically even if it did have some good things about it. I still have yet to muster up the interest to fully sit through DBS (only seen a few clips...and did they make Goku kind of...stupid for DBS?)...but all those other forms just feel lazy to me. As I mentioned earlier, for GT, I felt that SSJ4 was a ridiculous addition. I'd always felt SSJ3 was ridiculous (yet canon). Now that we have SSJ Rainbow in Super...I dunno. lol It just seems crazy that they keep adding modes as opposed to just story.

I watched the first movie with Beerus years ago, it was a fun movie to watch since it had been so long since we got anything Dragon Ball that was new. But then they went with the super saiyan rainbow colors and the more i read on it the more ridiculous it seems. Like Toriyama just barely remembering how power ups worked in DBZ and just throwing new power ups every few arcs, it's ridiculous.
We don't get to see anything that DBZ's original ending hinted at like Uub and Trunks/Gotens are still kids. GT had more guts in actually aging up the characters and continuing the story in different ways.

Out of all of these series that I have seen, I still prefer Dragon Ball to all of them. I liked how the fighting was handled and how tactics worked out too and not ki blast, ki blast, ki blast and some ungodly super mode in order to defeat said enemy. I also miss the other characters who actually had a remote chance of fighting alongside Goku. Yamacha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, and Krillin (sort of) are left in the dust for Z and practically anything beyond it since they're normal human-like characters anyway. By the sounds of it, Super takes it to a whole other level, pushing these guys even further behind.

Oh, also, regarding the whole SSJ level thing, I hated how they made it so easy for Goten to go SSJ compared to Goku and Gohan. Seeing Krillin killed helped him to unlock that. For SSJ2 Gohan (still one of my favorite moments for him), it was seeing Android 16 killed. For Goten, "Oh, I was training with mom and it just spontaneously happened." I don't remember how this was for the manga...just the anime.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Gohan vs. Cell is 100 times better in the anime than the manga. In the manga it's over too fast with a single beam.

And you can indeed argue that's the case but the episode that is literally just one long beam struggle simply isn't good television. The episode starts with two characters each standing on the opposites sides of a giant blue ball, everything that happens aside from it is either useless or a reaction to it, at the end of the episode they're standing there and isn't resolved until the next episode. The episode can be skipped entirely and nothing of value would be missed, it is a complete waste of 20 minutes.