Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by sdp

I used to love this show called Big Wolf on Campus, I re-watched it recently and still think it's great. I know many people described it as Buffy for kids and as much as people have always raved about Buffy I never got a chance to get into it.

I wasn’t a big fan, but I liked Big Wolf on Campus. I used to watch it on rte two around 2000/2001, but then forgot about it, probably because it stopped airing on that channel. Thought it was a good introduction to the supernatural world, just a year or two before I found out about Buffy. Haven’t watched the show in ages, though.

[ZariusTwo]

Fox Kids UK used to rerun a couple of seasons of Big Wolf, the same episodes repeatedly for two years. I caught the very first season on a separate channel

[Krutch]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's more than possible that Willow-the-Character views herself as either straight or gay. The issue is that Willow-the-Character isn't real, and is really the mouthpiece for the screenwriter(s).

There was never really the option, or the lipservice given, for her to be bisexual. She was straight when she was in a different-sex relationship, and then gay/lesbian when she was in a same-sex relationship.

And that inbetween phase was here just ...figuring things out.
That erases the very real existence of people who aren't figuring it out, and are just bisexual.

The writers get close to bisexuality when they bring in Dark Willow, and then Willow Prime says, That's me as a vampire? I'm all all evil, and slutty, and I think I'm kinda gay.

Or something to that effect.

It's a dated nitpick of mine.
Just another instance where the show illustrates that it's aged.
Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't understand how it's dated other than -and I really don't like using this overused term- appealing to SJWs with inclusivity writing.

I think there's plenty of people who go through Willow's journey just as she did. And not having her ponder the possibility of being bisexual doesn't exclude it's existence, it's just not pandering.

By the same logic, you could make the same argument if she was bisexual, that it's excluding homosexuals. It's neither. It's just giving the character one direction or the other.

Just my two cents

Willow: This isn't about the witch thing. It's about the other changes in my life.
Tara: I trust you, I just... I don't know where I'm gonna fit in in your life when—
Willow: When... I change back? Yeah, this is a college thing - Just a little experimentation before I get over the thrill and head back to boys' town. You think that?
Tara: Should I?
Willow: You know, I'm really sorry that I didn't establish my lesbo street cred before I got into this relationship. You're the only woman I've ever fallen in love with, so how on earth could you ever take me seriously?

[Krutch]

For what it's worth, if you go back and rewatch 4x19 "New Moon Rising" when Oz returns, you can see Willow's still going through the process of figuring herself out.

(After staying up all night talking)
Willow: Well, I believe a manly sized breakfast is in order. Don't you?
Oz: Or we could just sleep a while. *takes her hand* Whatever you want.
Willow: ...I'll have the less confusing waffles right now.

Buffy: What did you say to Oz?
Willow: I was going to tell him. But then we started hanging out and could just feel everything coming back.

Willow: I kind of feel like my heads going to explode.
Tara: But I'm saying, I know what Oz means to you.
Willow: How can you, when I'm not even sure? I mean, I know what he meant to me. But he left, and... everything changed. I changed, and then we —
Tara: What?
Willow: I don't know. I just — life was starting to get so good again, and... you're a big part of that. And here comes the thing I wanted most of all, and... I don't know what to do. I want to know, but I don't.

[plastroncafe]

You could make that argument, except that we have homosexual representation in Media. Sure it's not great, but it's getting better.
Bisexual representation, not so much.
Though admittedly, this to is getting better. And that's what I mean when I say that this show has not aged well.

And the two dialogue strips that were just represented, very accurately represent how bisexuality is seen within the gay community. That it's just straight people sowing their oats, having a laugh, and then going right back to their heterosexual partners.

Even if Willow were bisexual, and had broken up with Tara to go back to Oz, people would be saying she was straight, that her attraction to Tara was a phase. Heck she has to reassure Tara that she is in fact attracted to her, which is something she will probably wouldn't have to do if Willow came into this relationship from a previous same-sex relationship.
That's what I mean by Bi Erasure.

As someone who's experienced this first-hand, trust me it's alive and well in the gay community.

[Krutch]

Fair enough

Respectfully, I feel her journey made sense to the character. I get that you're speaking in a broader sense that goes outside the show and to the writers, but within the show it's completely reasonable for Willow to have taken the path she did.

And it's not like bisexuality doesn't exist in the Buffyverse. Glory, Darla, and Drusilla are all bisexual - Darla and Dru even had sex on Angel. And beyond the show, Buffy begins exploring that side of herself as well from what I've gathered... I didn't really keep up with the comics beyond the first few issues of season 8.

[ABrown]

As a HUGE Buffy/Angel fan, I think I'm about due for a complete rewatch of both shows.

[Krutch]

Originally Posted by ABrown

As a HUGE Buffy/Angel fan, I think I'm about due for a complete rewatch of both shows.

The thought is appealing, but like a few other shows that are a part of my daily routine, the idea is less compelling since ive seen every episode so many times already that watching them chronologically probably wouldn't do much for me.

[ABrown]

I didn't know where to post this. This thread will work. Happy 25th anniversary to the series premiere of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. An amazing show, one of my favorite ever created.

[CyberCubed]

I rewatched all of Buffy/Angel last year after not having watched either for about 15 years. Most of it is still great. The problems I have are the same ones I had when they aired (Spike nearly raping Buffy in the bathroom in Season 6 is the low point of the entire series), but it all holds up. Besides you know Kennedy and the potential slayers in Season 7.

Kennedy was an awful replacement for Tara.

[drgon78]

Kennedy was just plain awful and I couldn't stand many of the potential slayers and most of the ones I did like ended up dead. I hated Andrew for killing Jonathan and being one of the most annoying characters on the show. Personally the show was never the same after the death of Buffy's mother. Also not a fan of Buffy and Giles falling out because of Spike which was never properly resolved.

Even though the near rape of Buffy was the series low point it did lead to Spike doing something Angel didn't, he actually went and earned his soul back.

[CyberCubed]

Andrew had some real funny episodes in Season 7 so I didn't mind him sticking around. The breakup of Xander/Anya's wedding was another low point and they had no idea what to do with Anya after that in Season 7 as a result.

They should have made Anya the main villain for a season if they had some extra time.

[Andrew NDB]

Just watched the original movie on Max, then started watching Buffy season 1 on Hulu. And for the movie, yes, I peeked at Whedon's "Origin" comic that I'm understanding is a truer and more unaltered version of his original script for the movie that better serves as a prequel to the show.

So the movie still sucks (and now I'm picking up on Whedon's anti-republican snarkiness, and I also just noticed Ben Affleck as a random gym extra!) but man, the show, what a nostalgia trip. That opening titles sequence hit and I was "back," lol. I think I'll enjoy going back through this. I don't think I missed any episodes ages ago but I probably missed at least a few. And I know I didn't see whole seasons of Angel.

Is it true Whedon made Buffy a lesbian pretty much out of nowhere in the "season 8" comics?

[TMNTFanatic4Life]

Xander saving the World from Dark Willow was great. He

With words, not any kind of special weapons or spells.


Brilliant!

[Andrew NDB]

Several moments stay with me:

* Buffy sacrificing herself in a season finale.

* The death of Buffy's mom episode.

* The Dracula episode.

* The episode with the creepy silent grinning things.

* Spike going on a crusade to be worthy of Buffy (getting his soul back).

[CyberCubed]

I rewatched the shows about 2 years ago after not seeing them for about 15 years. They're still great although the last two seasons are weaker than everything before.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I rewatched the shows about 2 years ago after not seeing them for about 15 years. They're still great although the last two seasons are weaker than everything before.

I seem to remember -- while she was very cute -- that the arrival of Dawn sort of cheapened things. I guess I thought there was going to be a bigger payoff there? I think it seemed pretty obvious the cast was getting a little older so hey, let's create out of thin air this younger sister for Buffy to keep the attention of younger audiences. I don't remember thinking she added much to things.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Several moments stay with me:

* Buffy sacrificing herself in a season finale.

* The death of Buffy's mom episode.

* The Dracula episode.

* The episode with the creepy silent grinning things.

* Spike going on a crusade to be worthy of Buffy (getting his soul back).

I'd also add Spike's sacrifice at the Series Finale

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TheCanadiandrome

I'd also add Spike's sacrifice at the Series Finale

Oh, right! To then be resurrected on Angel. I don't remember, did Buffy ever show up on Angel? Particularly after Buffy ended?

[CyberCubed]

Dawn was fine, she comes in Season 5 one of the best seasons. The last two seasons are where the show runs out of steam, although Season 6 does have some high points.