Could Peter's bitterness toward Fred Wolf be about more than just content?

[Jester]

I was reading an interview with Kevin (I know the title says Peter, but hear me out), and he said this:

Originally Posted by Eastman

Then there was Fred Wolf, the animation company, that we worked with, hired by Playmates, a work-for-hire animation studio, that basically said they created everything about the Turtles that made them such a big phenomenon. So they sued for half the royalties that we’d made in the entire history of the property. That was a big suit: millions and millions of dollars to deal with that. I mean, this guy’s deposition had stuff like “He put the Turtles in the sewer.” We put the Turtles in the sewer in issue #1. He put our character April in a jumpsuit. That was issue #2; it was ludicrous!

Could this legal battle have been one of many reasons that the FW series puts a bad taste in Pete's mouth?

[FearlessLeader]

Wow, I certainly wouldn't blame Peter for being pissed and disheartened about the entire show seeing this is the case.

The more I find out about the background of this franchise, the more I come to understand Peter's frustration.

[DrSpengler]

I imagine this might have been what spurred him and Eastman to go after their own Mirage employees regarding characters and issues they owned partial creators rights to (AC Farley wrote a facebook entry about how the lawyers told him that unless he signed over all rights to everything he'd done while working for Mirage, he would never be permitted to work for Mirage again).

In a way, I can see how this sort of legal battle could leave them antsy to consolidate their rights and make sure nothing like this could ever happen again. And yeah, I can see how something like this could sour them toward the entire Fred Wolf series.

[gobo]

That is a rhetorical question, right? O_o Because it seems you answered it with the body of the post. Never knew it though. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[Cure]

He should be grateful this show made them as big as they are, as far as I'm concerned.

[DrSpengler]

WHEW that was an EPIC interview. I had never read it before now and it was extremely enlightening.

Hearing Eastman's side of the "mandatory retroactive work for hire contracts" incident... I dunno. He owns up to it and admits that it was handled poorly and unjustly. He spends 2,000 words trying to explain himself, but at least in the end he owns up to his own hypocrisy.

The whole interview was insanely informative. Thanks for sharing it, man.

[Powder]

Here to echo the Dr.'s sentiments. Crazy read...

[DrSpengler]

Reading how all-consuming running the franchise was, honestly, the time and energy investment and what was required of Eastman Laird exceeded anything I ever imagined. Just the summary of the lawsuits they had to endure and the international trademark and copyright puzzles that needed unraveling was positively insane.

In a way, it seemed rather discouraging toward any hopes of creating something, marketing it, and not losing it to a corporation. I can see the attraction in selling your idea to a conglomerate of lawyers just to avoid the kind of crap they went through.

On that note, I think reading this interview will help a lot of people better understand Laird's recent comment about wanting to undo history and make the Turtles never happen. Likewise, why he sold it all off to Viacom in 09. To think he was dealing with that stuff all by himself (after Kevin sold off his intellectual share) for several years...


Also, I was rather shocked to read that while Peter considered the Mirage crew to be close friends, Eastman never thought of any of them as anything more than employees and no longer associates with them. It's funny how my perception was always of Eastman as the buddy-buddy guy and Laird as the staunch businessman when it seems the other way around would be more accurate.

Again, this was a TREMENDOUS read, but a tremendously enlightening one, as well. The most informative interview on the subject I've ever read, as a matter of fact. Well worth the time for any fan.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Well, could have been worse.

*sighs forever for Swat KATS and Gargoyles*

[Canadian Turtle]

I have had some insight into many of the subjects discussed here. To start with, Kevin spoke at length about some of these legal battles in our interview with him. This, along with a million other lawsuits was a HUGE burden on the guys.

The character rights that AC Farley speaks about (I assume) was in reference to the rights transfer when the TMNT were sold to Viacom. All the guys held the partial rights to their created characters right up till the last day. As each of them were allowed to design and write characters for the toy line, and other publications. The unpleasantness came when the lawyers got involved when the franchise was being sold. Viacom wanted ALL things associated with the intellectual property rights in their hands.

I believe it would be unfair to say that Kevin never saw those guys as friends, I know for a fact that he did and still does! As for the perception of Peter being less warm, this is also FAR from the truth, but sadly is a perception that many have of him. I know of a few personal moments especially in recent times that shows how warm and caring Peter is with the Mirage guys, even though it might not seem like that from the outside.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by Canadian Turtle

The character rights that AC Farley speaks about (I assume) was in reference to the rights transfer when the TMNT were sold to Viacom. All the guys held the partial rights to their created characters right up till the last day. As each of them were allowed to design and write characters for the toy line, and other publications. The unpleasantness came when the lawyers got involved when the franchise was being sold. Viacom wanted ALL things associated with the intellectual property rights in their hands.

Well, in the piece Farley wrote, it was earlier than that; when Gary Richardson sent the retroactive work for hire contracts to all the Mirage employees and anyone who had ever worked on the comic (it is discussed at length in the interview, particularly Veitch and Bissette's reactions to the contracts and their falling out over them).

I believe it would be unfair to say that Kevin never saw those guys as friends, I know for a fact that he did and still does! As for the perception of Peter being less warm, this is also FAR from the truth, but sadly is a perception that many have of him. I know of a few personal moments especially in recent times that shows how warm and caring Peter is with the Mirage guys, even though it might not seem like that from the outside.

Well, this was an old interview merely being reprinted online, so it's certainly likely Eastman's attitude has changed since then. It's just that in the interview itself, he says as much; that he didn't consider them close friends and only speaks them briefly when he accidentally bumps into them.

It's nice to know that this has changed, though.

And I've had minimal personal contact with Laird, though his comments on several of my TMNT Entity reviews have always been polite and inciteful even when my reviews were critically negative. I think he's definitely a nicer and friendlier guy than fans tend to give him credit for and the popular perception that he's otherwise seems to stem mostly from his letter column in Volume 4 and the attitude he seemed display in it.

I certainly hold no grudge against him and I've found this interview has me rethinking a lot of presumptions I'd made about his actions over the course of the franchise history.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

WHEW that was an EPIC interview. I had never read it before now and it was extremely enlightening.

That sure echoes my thoughts. I kept hearing about "that Kevin Eastman interview, just read it" and I guess I assumed it was the same one he did a few years back, sometime after he sold his half of the rights to Peter... I'd never read this and as long as I've kept up with and known the guy, at least a few things in there were pretty shocking.

[Konchadunga]

All of this kind of makes me wonder how things might have turned out differently had Eastman and Laird waited a bit longer to make a deal with Playmates, assuming they could. I say this because, while their comic was selling well by Independent comic standards, it was still very much their own project and few other people's. If they had gone on becoming a more popular comic for a while, and picked up new staff to distribute the work around, maybe by the time they made the TV deal, they would have had an easier time managing the property abd judging the scope of how big it had gotten.

[oldmanwinters]

Do tell...

[Playmates] said, “What do you think about coming up with a way to differentiate them a little bit more?” Pete came up with both the different color bandannas and the belts with the letters on them. I even think it was suggested at one time that they even be different shades of green, which in the world of toys and animation just was not doable. They can’t get that finely tuned.

Now that's interesting!

I'm not sure what Kevin means when he says the "different shades of green" was not "doable" in toys and animation. The Playmates action figures always had unique skin colors from the get-go!

[Jester]

Is kinda surprising that Peter was the one who made that choice. Guess he ain't that much of a "purist" after all.

[oldmanwinters]

This interview is GOLD.

My favorite part is when Kevin starts talking about the overseas licensing process (or lack thereof). The story about post-Iron Curtain Russia is the best:

EASTMAN: I think I was talking about how crazy the Russian program was in comparison to the insanity that we’d already dealt with. We had done a licensing deal there with this sub-licensing agent named Peter Tamm. We said, “Well, we’ve looked into it and there’s no real government system, there’s no way we can protect our copyright and trademark or enforce anything to protect your rights as we normally to do everywhere else.”

He said, “Don’t worry about it.” Because he had this arrangement where he would manufacture all these goods in factories in Turkey, where we had licenses already, so we’d get percentages of royalties from the increase in factory production in Turkey as well as this guy would import all this Turtles merchandise — comics and toys and you name it — drive ’em in big 18-wheelers into these Russian markets, open up the backs, and sell ’em off the trucks. He said that if anybody infringes on his rights as our agent in that territory, I’m going to send some of my guys over there to kick the **** out of ’em. That’s how I’ll protect the copyright/trademark. Period. . . .

We were like, “Is that really what it’s like there?” And he said, “You know what? To describe” — and I guess we’re talking 1992, ’93, when the Turtles were really hot — and he said to describe the climate in Russia after the wall had comedown and all these changes were going on, he said it’s sort of like a cross between the wild, wild West and Chicago gangland in the ’20s and ’30s. It was really a free-for-all that all these capitalist ideas were coming in and people were just going nuts. . . .

GROTH: Did you sign with him?

EASTMAN: [Laughs.] He was interesting, and he made us a little nervous.

GROTH: Did you sign with him?

EASTMAN: Yeah, we signed with him. [Laughter.] We signed with him and he paid us the money. It was pretty decent money. It was a lot of — Christ, you know, are we dealing with Russian Mafia? Who knows? It was kind of scary at the same time.

God bless "capitalism," eh?

Originally Posted by Jester

Is kinda surprising that Peter was the one who made that choice. Guess he ain't that much of a "purist" after all.

However, the next paragraph makes it look like that the marketing took its toll on Laird moreso than Eastman:

It probably affected Pete more than it did me. He was really upset about it and even today he’s very much of a purist as far as the Turtles go. I think he has much more of an attachment to the Turtles than I do. I may have had more in the beginning, can’t say as I really do now. It’s like they never stopped!!

[Leo656]

Well that was a beast of an interview but fascinating the whole way through.

The lesson I took away is that it's best to just sell out and let lawyers and sharks do what they do best, and remove yourself entirely from all the "business" BS. Just cash the check, enjoy the money, and live a happy life, rather than spend half your life in court trying to protect yours and everyone else's "artistic integrity" and see that everyone gets every penny of their fair share. In such a blatantly commercial medium like comics, it simply cannot be done.

It seems like the more Kevin tried to do to protect "creators' rights" for himself and his friends, from Mirage through Tundra and all the way through, the more he was forced into the exact "corporate scumbag" role they were all fighting against in the first place, and everything Kevin swore would "get him back to drawing" pushed him even further away. Seems to me like he and Peter both would have been way happier - and probably wealthier - people today if they had just sold TMNT off to DC or Marvel when the franchise was at its peak in the early-90s. Yeah, the purists would complain about how it wasn't "true to the creators' vision," but I think it's been made clear by now that Kev and Pete only had time to work on "their vision" for about ten minutes in the first place before the entire thing got too big to control anymore, and the next 20 years was one big BS hassle.

It probably came down more to the fact a worthwhile offer never came along from DC or Marvel, I know he did mention a Marvel offer early on but I'd imagine if they tried again in say 1993 or so it would have worked out a whole lot better for everyone involved, and I'm 99% sure they would have "sold out" in a second just to be done with the BS. Though selfishly I would've liked them better at DC, Marvel already has too many mutants.

Ah well, too late now. I always laugh a bit though at how miserable people become when they fight for "artistic integrity" in a commercial medium. Said it before a million times: Can't be done, you make one penny on your "art" and you're forever a prostitute, you can't have it both ways. People who cash checks smile a lot, people who cling to their "integrity" and "artistic vision" usually end up burnt out and miserable. I know which side I'd fall on; life's too short to be broke, "brilliant", critically-acclaimed and miserable.

There's a ton of other lessons in there, specifically about how you can't turn a Pop's Burgers into a McDonald's and expect it to run exactly the same way as it did when it was a tiny company, but again, I file it all under "cash the check and let the assh*les in suits figure out the rest of it".

[ZariusTwo]

People are still pretending Laird hates the Fred Wolf 'toon? Christ.

Didnt anyone read the letters pages in volume four? He doesnt hate it at all.

If he hated it, we wouldnt have gotten Turtles Forever, nor would we have had Bebop and Rocksteady saving the day in it.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

People are still pretending Laird hates the Fred Wolf 'toon? Christ.

Didnt anyone read the letters pages in volume four? He doesnt hate it at all.

If he hated it, we wouldnt have gotten Turtles Forever, nor would we have had Bebop and Rocksteady saving the day in it.

What does he say? Where are those letters?

[Toby Barrett]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

People are still pretending Laird hates the Fred Wolf 'toon? Christ.

Didnt anyone read the letters pages in volume four? He doesnt hate it at all.

If he hated it, we wouldnt have gotten Turtles Forever, nor would we have had Bebop and Rocksteady saving the day in it.

He regularly mentions plenty of hate on his blog.