How seriously should the 1987 tmnt cartoon be taken, if at all?

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Action/Adventure/Comedy, I guess?

I mean, the protagonists literally dispatched the bad guys by whipping pizza at them on more than one occasion, and many if not most of the climactic fight scenes were accompanied by numerous piss-taking zingers that would make any Marvel movie blush. They once KO'ed Bebop and Rocksteady by making them smell their own feet, for crissakes.

There are lots of action and adventure elements for certain, but I agree that the show was predominantly comedic in nature. Whereas, say, Biker Mice From Mars, which I'd never seen at all until recently, would be more like an action/adventure show with occasional comedic elements, while TMNT would be a comedic show with action/adventure elements. If that makes any sense. Like you said, huge chunks of the dialog were either a pun, a zinger, or expository information. Not all, but very much of it.

And for those who might not "get it", none of this is an "attack", merely an observation/statement of fact. This shouldn't need to be explicitly stated, but apparently it does.

I am sure if you didn't wash your fight in years, you would be koed also.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

About as seriously as the Rise show.

Since you are a huge fan of Rise, I'm gonna take that as a compliment

Speaking of Rise, I'm about 20 episodes into the show, and I thought it was interesting how the turtles in that show are constantly making jokes just like the 1987 toon but they too have faced against some pretty impressive stakes so far and come out on top, so the threat level always seems real for the most part.

Like the 1987 series, Rise is a cartoon that I am taking seriously, but not without laughing a lot along the way.

Originally Posted by turtle1237

I am sure if you didn't wash your feet in years, you would be koed also.

As Donatello said, that was some real hazardous work.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Even in the most slapstick episodes, the stakes themselves were always taken seriously by the turtles.

So it doesn't matter if they were Stabbing or pushing carboard boxes, the threats were always real in the eyes of the turtles.

Agreed. I noticed this myself when I started rewatching season 2 recently. That’s one thing Turtles Forever got wrong. The show is still best treated as a comedy, though.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I don't even know what to qualify this show as if it's not a comedy. The characters break the fourth wall all the time, they constantly spew snark and a lot (if not most) of the plots are intentionally farcical. It seems to me like most of the lines uttered are either jokes or exposition.

The Fred Wolf series is not a comedy series. It has threat every episode. Threat doesn't not equal comedy. I mean it's kind of obvious to anybody no?

The show is an action adventure show with comedic moments. It is not an outright comedy. That would be like calling The Real Ghostbusters, The Racoons or DuckTales a comedy.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

The Fred Wolf series is not a comedy series. It has threat every episode. Threat doesn't not equal comedy. I mean it's kind of obvious to anybody no?

The show is an action adventure show with comedic moments. It is not an outright comedy. That would be like calling The Real Ghostbusters, The Racoons or DuckTales a comedy.

No, it is not obvious. If anything that's an extremely flimsy disclaimer. A threat is one of the most common sources of motivation or conflict in story telling. And Comedy isn't always lighthearted, it can be extremely dark and disturbing. But comedy doesn't have to be dark to feature a threat or serious danger either, I'm just pointing that tone isn't what qualifies a comedy either.

Ghostbusters features a threat from a god of destruction, still a comedy.
Life of Brian features a main character in danger of getting excecuted by the Romans (which happens), still a comedy.
Spaceballs could have ended with an entire planet suffocating to death, still a comedy.
Shaun of the Dead has the characters constantly in danger of being eaten alive, still a comedy.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit has the title character almost melted into a vat of acid, still a comedy.

I could go on and on. The point is, having stakes does not disqualify something from being a comedy.

[Hamato Yoshi]

Batman 66 = TMNT 87

Although i suspect Batman is silliet , at least in s3 with Batgirl

[D-ray]

I've never took the 1987 too seriously, due to how goofy it is most of the times.
This obliviously doesn't mean that the whole cartoon is a burp.
Some scenes and episodes can actually be seen on a serious way, but this happens only when you are fully grown.
Also, even if the scene is "serious" for your point of you, the characters doesn't seem aware of it, so you just don't care at some point. Atleast, this was for me.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, it is not obvious. If anything that's an extremely flimsy disclaimer. A threat is one of the most common sources of motivation or conflict in story telling. And Comedy isn't always lighthearted, it can be extremely dark and disturbing. But comedy doesn't have to be dark to feature a threat or serious danger either, I'm just pointing that tone isn't what qualifies a comedy either.

Some of your examples make little sense while the other examples are actual examples of comedy:

Life of Brian, Spaceballs and Shaun of the Dead are comedies. They're more specifically parodies. They do have danger yet we aren't supposed to take seriously what is going on, i,e. we're watching for the jokes therefore they are comedies.

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is NOT a comedy. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It contains comedic scenes but it's meant to be taken seriously. It's a film noir fantasy not a comedy.

Ghostbusters is a tricky one. It was marketed and is still known today as a comedy, not helped by the fact people look at those involved with the production are comedy based. However Ghostbusters while containing a lot of humour is played straight unlike the first three examples. It also has a lot of other genres in it which is where the confusion lies: action adventure, horror and sci-fi fantasy. Willing to bet it's been shown on channels with each of those specific genres.

I don't see the FW series as a comedy. It was never about pratfalls, it had danger we were supposed to take seriously. Call TMNT a comedy and you might as well call any kids cartoon series with a little bit of humour a comedy series.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by pferreira

I don't see the FW series as a comedy. It was never about pratfalls, it had danger we were supposed to take seriously. Call TMNT a comedy and you might as well call any kids cartoon series with a little bit of humour a comedy series.

I agree the FW series had danger, but it still wasn’t meant to be taken too seriously due to the amount of humor such as pizza jokes and sarcasm. I’m rewatching season 2 at the moment and it’s pretty good, though I’m only taking it slightly seriously.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Some of your examples make little sense while the other examples are actual examples of comedy:

Life of Brian, Spaceballs and Shaun of the Dead are comedies. They're more specifically parodies. They do have danger yet we aren't supposed to take seriously what is going on, i,e. we're watching for the jokes therefore they are comedies.

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is NOT a comedy. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It contains comedic scenes but it's meant to be taken seriously. It's a film noir fantasy not a comedy.

Ghostbusters is a tricky one. It was marketed and is still known today as a comedy, not helped by the fact people look at those involved with the production are comedy based. However Ghostbusters while containing a lot of humour is played straight unlike the first three examples. It also has a lot of other genres in it which is where the confusion lies: action adventure, horror and sci-fi fantasy. Willing to bet it's been shown on channels with each of those specific genres.

I don't see the FW series as a comedy. It was never about pratfalls, it had danger we were supposed to take seriously. Call TMNT a comedy and you might as well call any kids cartoon series with a little bit of humour a comedy series.

You are aware that a movie can fit into multiple genres and that it can be multiple things, aren't you? Wheter or not a movie is classified as a comedy does not mean it can't also be a drama, action or horror. Sometimes it can be all four at the same time. If it's well made enough it can do all elements successfully.

If this concept is so far beyond your grasp that the threat of Gozer overrides the fact that you watched a movie that is built around the joke of college professors being reduced to glorified pest control, them dripping in con man clichés, has a long scene of them wrecking a hotel out of inexperience to then demand massive fees for said destruction, and lines in almost every scene meant to be a joke... I don't know what to tell you. Or did you think lines like the one about mold collection were meant to be taken seriously?

And back to the topic of FW TMNT, I don't get how exactly you can ignore that episode after episode is built on gag premises and still say you're meant to mostly meant to take this **** seriously. Here's a selective but not exactly short list of premises that are clearly meant to be jokes:

• Alien Beatniks drive around in a flying Cadillac
• Parodies of the Giger Alien spawn from meat ball pizzas
• Shredder creates hick frogs by accident and thinks he can beat his enemies with their help
• The klutz becomes a giant and therefore even clumsier
• Shredder builds a machine that attracts antiques
• A child dresses up in bad cosplay in an attempt to emulate the turtles
• Leonardo hits his head and thinks he's a character in The Three Musketeers
• Shredder programs a trash collecting robot to bring him random turtles until he gets the right ones, flooding his base with turtles
• An alien tourist loses his camera that can trap people
• All but one turtle takes a love potion and falls for the frumpy wallflower
• Casey, depicted as a clueless nutjob, fights off evil household products
• Shredder runs a fake pizzeria and employs Mike
• A MXYZPTLK knock-off shows up
• A dream in which Shredder causes NYC to become a dystopia due to poor handling of paper work
• Raph literally does stand-up
• Mike pretends to be a toy
• Shredder's mom shows up and bosses him around
• Turtles babysit a baby beatnik
• A crazy collector puts April in his collection
• Leo is turned into a slacker
• Two of the turtles are turned into babies
• Amateur superhero contest
• Clumsy wallflower has to pretend to be Don because someone thought he was a girl
• A scientist fakes an alien invasion to cover his "evil" plan to make bigger vegetables
• Hillbillies steal the turtle van
• Klutz mistakenly belives herself to have superpowers
• Three of the turtles are turned into babies, it's different because there's one more this time
• A guy becomes the phantom of the opera because he got paint on his face
• Don thinks he's Batman and tricks the triceratons into leaving earth with animatronics
• A ray that turns cute things into monsters

Between this and the constant jokes and absurd resolutions... How can anyone watch this show and go "yeah, this is mostly serious"? It boggles the mind...

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by neatoman

And back to the topic of FW TMNT, I don't get how exactly you can ignore that episode after episode is built on gag premises and still say you're meant to mostly meant to take this **** seriously. Here's a selective but not exactly short list of premises that are clearly meant to be jokes:

Between this and the constant jokes and absurd resolutions... How can anyone watch this show and go "yeah, this is mostly serious"? It boggles the mind...

I think you're half-right here.

Yes, the show absolutely had many bat-s*it crazy premises, the characters made jokes all the time in the Blue-Sky era and there was a lot of self-awareness going on.

On the other hand though, there were stakes involved in pretty much every episode which could be lethal to the characters from a story perspective, and the turtles took their ninja crime fighting seriously, even if said crime fighting involved pushing cardboard boxes and chandeliers throughout the middle seasons.

So I wouldn't say "this is mostly serious" about the cartoon, but I would say that FW tmnt deserves to be taken seriously due to the consistent threat level, despite comedy being one of the show's main genres throughout a majority of its run.

Like you said earlier, stakes don't disqualify the show from being a comedy, but I would argue that its also true vice versa (Being a comedy doesn't invalidate the stakes involved).

For the sake of comparison, here is another tmnt version that is a pure comedy and nothing else, due to having no stakes unlike the cartoon its based on:

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Wesley

I agree the FW series had danger, but it still wasn’t meant to be taken too seriously due to the amount of humor such as pizza jokes and sarcasm. I’m rewatching season 2 at the moment and it’s pretty good, though I’m only taking it slightly seriously.

There's obvious comfort in the fact that the heroes will win but the danger is supposed to be taken seriously.

Originally Posted by neatoman

You are aware that a movie can fit into multiple genres and that it can be multiple things, aren't you? Wheter or not a movie is classified as a comedy does not mean it can't also be a drama, action or horror. Sometimes it can be all four at the same time. If it's well made enough it can do all elements successfully.

As I said Ghostbusters is a fairly unique example as it crosses many genres which is why I disagree it's just a comedy.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Between this and the constant jokes and absurd resolutions... How can anyone watch this show and go "yeah, this is mostly serious"? It boggles the mind...

All your examples could be used in other cartoons I watched as a child and those were serious cartoons. Again this doesn't make them comedic cartoons. There's a difference between a series being lighthearted and a comedy as you so badly fail to grasp. Transformers from the 80s had moments you list however it's meant to be taken seriously. I don't really look at an episode of DuckTales or The Real Ghostbusters or The Racoons and go "this is a hilarious comedy". It contains comedic moments but it's supposed to be taken seriously. Not sure why this is difficult for you to understand?

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

On the other hand though, there were stakes involved in pretty much every episode which could be lethal to the characters from a story perspective, and the turtles took their ninja crime fighting seriously, even if said crime fighting involved pushing cardboard boxes and chandeliers throughout the middle seasons.

Okay you get it more than neatoman. The point is comedy within something doesn't automatically make it a comedy.

[Wesley]

@neotoman and FredWolfLeonardo: You’re both kinda right imo. Some dialogue/scenes are serious, but I mostly laugh at the absurdity of it all. For example, New York’s Shiniest is a hard episode to watch with a straight face.

@pferreira: It’s hard to take the danger seriously when the Turtles find themselves in absurd situations (eg. facing off against a hose in The Mean Machines).

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by Hamato Yoshi

Batman 66 = TMNT 87

I've never underwood when people say this. I've always said that version of Batman is equivalent to The Next Mutation series. To me, this is the version that I've always considered to be the closest Batman to the original TMNT cartoon.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by ABrown

I've never underwood when people say this. I've always said that version of Batman is equivalent to The Next Mutation series. To me, this is the version that I've always considered to be the closest Batman to the original TMNT cartoon.

Truth be told, The Adventures of Batman and The New Adventures of Batman are essentially animated versions of the 66 TV show.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ABrown

I've never underwood when people say this. I've always said that version of Batman is equivalent to The Next Mutation series. To me, this is the version that I've always considered to be the closest Batman to the original TMNT cartoon.

Actually I'd say the closest thing to being the Fred Wolf of Batman is Super Friends. ALthough that is more of a JLA/general DC thing, if we want more Batman specific, then I guess the Adam West show does fit or possibly one of those earlier Batman cartoons before Timm.

As for the Next Mutation of Batman... Harder one, possibly the Schumacher movies. Alternatives might be Birds of Prey (the show, not the movie), Gotham, Batwoman, the film serials, Dawn of Justice or Beware.

The Schumacher movies are still the top candidate for me consider how well known they are. Though BoP and Beware do have that "canned after one season" bit. I think DoJ, Gotham and Batwoman have their fans but to me they're garbage.

Anyway to truly find the Next Mutation of Batman is, I think these are some guidelines:

1. It has to well known, being trash isn't enough.
2. It can't be a comic, DC's insistance on publishing two or more monthly books featuring Batman means bad Batman comics will keep popping up.
3. There ought to be some level of quality expected, if for some reason it was pretty much doomed to suck due to some factor, then it's disqualified.

So then under these guidelines, delightful garbage like this direct to video toy commercial is disqualified:

[DarkFell]

I doubt that the series even took itself seriously, and I reckon that held some appeal for a few folks in this forum.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Wesley

@pferreira: It’s hard to take the danger seriously when the Turtles find themselves in absurd situations (eg. facing off against a hose in The Mean Machines).

Wasn't it made clear in the episode that any instrument controlled by that machine could kill them somehow? I like that episode. April unplugging the computer was a copout but it was kind of clever.

Originally Posted by neatoman

So then under these guidelines, delightful garbage like this direct to video toy commercial is disqualified:

How is that video you linked any worse than most Batman? Firstly I wasn't laughing at the video, secondly all the elements you'd associate with Batman were there. The characters behaved like the characters so much seeing the issue there?

Originally Posted by DarkFell

I doubt that the series even took itself seriously, and I reckon that held some appeal for a few folks in this forum.

If it didn't take itself seriously at all why would people bother watching it?

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Wasn't it made clear in the episode that any instrument controlled by that machine could kill them somehow? I like that episode. April unplugging the computer was a copout but it was kind of clever.

Mean Machines is actually one of my favourite episodes. The resolution didn’t bother me tbh. You have a point about the machine, but that scene still came off to me as silly on my recent rewatch.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

How is that video you linked any worse than most Batman? Firstly I wasn't laughing at the video, secondly all the elements you'd associate with Batman were there. The characters behaved like the characters so much seeing the issue there?

To be fair, that video does not encapsulate all that is wrong with that particular movie, I sort of get why you don't get what's wrong with it. It's honestly hard to explain the problems without sounding like a raving madman. It's called Batman Unlimited: Monster Mayhem, in case you're interested.

Then again, I'm not sure how you can watch video of Batman riding a robot dinosaur and think "Yes, this is perfectly normal for Batman, I could totally see this ******** happen in any other version of Batman. This is what I expect of Batman!".