Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows-One More Chance

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

I thought Doctor Strange did the erasing for in Spider-Man's case.

That's what they all beleive, but it's looking likely that was a false memory given to everyone.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

That's what they all beleive, but it's looking likely that was a false memory given to everyone.

That sounds a little needlessly convoluted. Granted, this is comics, but still.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

That sounds a little needlessly convoluted. Granted, this is comics, but still.

I think Soule covered his bases just fine, as Doctor Strange also camoes in the issue turning down Matt's request, so you can take it either way, it's referencing OMD and OMIT, but since they've made a big deal out of Mephisto taunting Peter in Spider-Man/Deadpool, it's a safe bet it's more to do with OMD.

Dan Slott answered a Spider-Marriage question on Twitter today. I thought the way he worded it was interesting, he points to Renew Your Vows as a present option for marriage fans, but for him it's "been there, done that", he pointed out that this was just "his take", meaning it might not be the company's take anymore. Just food for thought.

https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/832323064507617284

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I think Soule covered his bases just fine, as Doctor Strange also camoes in the issue turning down Matt's request, so you can take it either way, it's referencing OMD and OMIT, but since they've made a big deal out of Mephisto taunting Peter in Spider-Man/Deadpool, it's a safe bet it's more to do with OMD.

Okay. I do have to admit that, given that a lot of recent ASM comics have started with an interesting premise but fallen flat in the finale, I'm not really sure that any revisiting of OMD will bear anything good for classic Spider-Man fans, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Dan Slott answered a Spider-Marriage question on Twitter today. I thought the way he worded it was interesting, he points to Renew Your Vows as a present option for marriage fans, but for him it's "been there, done that", he pointed out that this was just "his take", meaning it might not be the company's take anymore. Just food for thought.

https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/832323064507617284

Well, to Slott's credit, that's a pretty polite response, considering his reputation with dissenting readers, if in effect he's saying that he thinks that status quo has run it's course, but there is new material out there for those who want it. My initial reading of Slott saying that's his "take" was that he just meant that he was just giving his personal opinion, but I guess we'll have to see what Marvel wants to do in the long run.

[ZariusTwo]

Gerry Conway confirms Jean Grey is happily married in Renew Your Vows

...He does'nt specify if she's married to Scott or not though. Given we have seen artwork of Scott looking 'interested' in MJ, Gerry could be another Marvel writer who likes pairing her up with maybe Logan.

Originally Posted by WebLurker

Okay. I do have to admit that, given that a lot of recent ASM comics have started with an interesting premise but fallen flat in the finale, I'm not really sure that any revisiting of OMD will bear anything good for classic Spider-Man fans, but that's just me.

I agree...Slott is unfortunatly the type that gives readers something they demand, but adds a critically damaging 'twist' to the story that makes everyone come off looking worse...it'd be better to tie up OMD's loose ends long after he's finished his story, but Slott would love to be the guy to finally bring the marriage back just for the publicity it would generate, and would add to his legacy.

Well, to Slott's credit, that's a pretty polite response, considering his reputation with dissenting readers, if in effect he's saying that he thinks that status quo has run it's course, but there is new material out there for those who want it. My initial reading of Slott saying that's his "take" was that he just meant that he was just giving his personal opinion, but I guess we'll have to see what Marvel wants to do in the long run.

That's how I read it too. He acts as if he's more resigned to the fact the fans for marriage haven't gone anywhere, they have a place of refuge, but for him personally there's just more to Spidey than it...but I also think Marvel no longer quite have the same disdain they have for the marriage as they did under Quesada's eager eye. They're slowly easing readers back into that status quo while trying to also get more out of the Spidey they want in the mainline books...but ultimately I just think they will restore it. As you say, we need to wait it all out. At this point, I think Slott is the only one now holding back it's return, assuming he has'nt got something planned already.

BTW, some friends of mine have been working on a new ongoing Spider-Man fan 'comic' featuring a married Peter and MJ with Annie as their infant daughter, but is slightly more grounded and tries to utlize all the best elements of the last ten years. Check out the latest issue if you'd like:

http://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/2...er-man-2016-6/

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Gerry Conway confirms Jean Grey is happily married in Renew Your Vows

...He does'nt specify if she's married to Scott or not though. Given we have seen artwork of Scott looking 'interested' in MJ, Gerry could be another Marvel writer who likes pairing her up with maybe Logan.

Interesting.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I agree...Slott is unfortunatly the type that gives readers something they demand, but adds a critically damaging 'twist' to the story that makes everyone come off looking worse...it'd be better to tie up OMD's loose ends long after he's finished his story, but Slott would love to be the guy to finally bring the marriage back just for the publicity it would generate, and would add to his legacy.

He wanted to bring it back? I could very well be wrong, but I got the impression that having written the RYV miniseries, he'd done what he wanted with that premise, that he wanted to have a chance to write a story based on that iteration, not bring it back full time.

Although, I wouldn't blame him for wanting to leave more of a legacy for his run; as of late, his run hasn't been exactly earning high praise, I've gathered a recurring theme from online commenters that they think he's running out of steam and his current stuff doesn't compare to his earlier work, not to mention that his run has made very little impression on the franchise as a whole.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

That's how I read it too. He acts as if he's more resigned to the fact the fans for marriage haven't gone anywhere, they have a place of refuge, but for him personally there's just more to Spidey than it...

Well, to be fair, the decision to reinstate it isn't his, and I would get tetchy if people kept asking me about it. I also know that there are people who base their dislike of his run largely because of the absence of the marriage, which would be an annoying thing to deal with (if I was a writer, I'd want my work taken for what it was, too). And I have seen some online fans be pretty rude to him on occasion, so I think the breakdown of civility between Slott and fans isn't completely one-sided.

However, I'm really sure why people at Marvel would be surprised that the marriage fans are still around. As I understood it, back in '07, they thought that within a year OMD would be accepted and things would go one. That never really happened. The fanbase that wants nothing to do with post-OMD Spider-Man (or prefers pre-OMD regardless of if they like the new run for what it is) have remained vocal. I mean, when Slott made the official Q and A for Marvel's introduction to his RYV miniseries, he specifically commented that the marriage was a thing that Spidey fans had strong opinions on, and that he may have been understating it.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

...but I also think Marvel no longer quite have the same disdain they have for the marriage as they did under Quesada's eager eye.

Wonder why? Most of the people who put OMD into place are still there and since last year, at least, the comics were toeing the line that OMD fixed the franchise.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

They're slowly easing readers back into that status quo while trying to also get more out of the Spidey they want in the mainline books...but ultimately I just think they will restore it. As you say, we need to wait it all out. At this point, I think Slott is the only one now holding back it's return, assuming he has'nt got something planned already.

We'll see. My personal guess was that someone eventually would mess with it again, even if was a halfway with Peter and MJ dating; but I was thinking it would be after the readers who grew up with that version became the ones creating the comics. That is essentially how OMD came about; the people in charge weren't happy with what the character had become and wanted him to be like how he was when they were the civilian readers.

We'll have to see, though, where the future takes us.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

BTW, some friends of mine have been working on a new ongoing Spider-Man fan 'comic' featuring a married Peter and MJ with Annie as their infant daughter, but is slightly more grounded and tries to utlize all the best elements of the last ten years. Check out the latest issue if you'd like:

http://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/2...er-man-2016-6/

Yeah, I've been collecting the script PDFs. Pretty good. Not sure if the first couple of scripts being a reimagining of the RYV miniseries #1 is quite what I would've done (I think Venom was a better choice than Doc Ock for the villain in question, although I will concede that the FNSM script version did have more room to breathe). I also really wish they could get an artist to make an actual comic over a script, but it has been worth the reading so far.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

He wanted to bring it back?

I think I brought this up before here, but apparently he told fans at conventions he'd been pitching a marriage comeback for a while, and only got permission to do RYV when Secret Wars came about.

I could very well be wrong, but I got the impression that having written the RYV miniseries, he'd done what he wanted with that premise, that he wanted to have a chance to write a story based on that iteration, not bring it back full time.

Yes, but Slott also said elements from RYV would greatly impact the books later on. We've seen that manifest through the use of Regent in 616, the "deja vu" Peter and MJ had when fighting him, and in promoting the RYV ongoing, Conway hinted there would be potential for a crossover between the two universes eventually. I suspect Slott would relish the oppertunity to compare and contrast Peter the single CEO with Peter the humble working-class family man who has everything that Mephisto said his devil-dealing counterpart would pretty much never have.

However, I'm really sure why people at Marvel would be surprised that the marriage fans are still around. As I understood it, back in '07, they thought that within a year OMD would be accepted and things would go one. That never really happened. The fanbase that wants nothing to do with post-OMD Spider-Man (or prefers pre-OMD regardless of if they like the new run for what it is) have remained vocal. I mean, when Slott made the official Q and A for Marvel's introduction to his RYV miniseries, he specifically commented that the marriage was a thing that Spidey fans had strong opinions on, and that he may have been understating it.

I don't think they're as surprised as they let on. When they found out the newspaper strip was going to bring the marriage back after running for only a few months with a single Peter, they simply said "they can do their story, we'll do ours", they've always been aware there was something to keep the marriage fans going. Slott has brought up the strip several times, even telling fans to read it while Superior Spider-Man was running, and then he wrote a strip story himself for Spide-Verse, taking credit for "sparing" the strip's version of Peter from the events of that story that had already claimed the life of the happily married MC2 Peter (or rather a version similar to him)

Wonder why? Most of the people who put OMD into place are still there and since last year, at least, the comics were toeing the line that OMD fixed the franchise.

I think some of the people in those posistions disagreed with Quesada on some things related to the execution of OMD. Tom Brevoort is of the opinion MJ was still pregnant during The Clone Saga, but Quesada's One Moment In Time story establishes otherwise.

Quesada in a rare interview last year insisted removing the marriage was the 'right thing' to do...though this is the same Quesada who actually produced a variant cover for the last issue of Slott's Renew Your Vows.

Axel Alonzo, now the EIC, was the man in charge of the Spider-line when OMD went down, so maybe he has a lot to do with the recent Mephisto references, perhaps he feels like some of us do that the time travel retcon is perhaps a little too damaging to long-term investment and it's probably better they reveal it was a mind-wipe job, that allows Quesada's story to stand, but allows Brevoort's opinion to become factual and it does'nt create this idea that post-OMD canon does'nt "count"

We'll see. My personal guess was that someone eventually would mess with it again, even if was a halfway with Peter and MJ dating; but I was thinking it would be after the readers who grew up with that version became the ones creating the comics. That is essentially how OMD came about; the people in charge weren't happy with what the character had become and wanted him to be like how he was when they were the civilian readers.

Yes, there is that possibility we've going to enter a vicious cycle with generations of fans...there will be people who have spent their entire young life beleiving Peter and MJ have always been at odds and that Gwen Stacy was always a Web Warrior (something the new cartoon won't be helping with), or that Peter never worked for Jameson and went straight to Horizon. There's always that danger, but that's probably why Marvel are reprinting The Wedding saga this year..to inform that generation (or to inform people new to Renew Your Vows, take your pick)

Yeah, I've been collecting the script PDFs. Pretty good. Not sure if the first couple of scripts being a reimagining of the RYV miniseries #1 is quite what I would've done (I think Venom was a better choice than Doc Ock for the villain in question, although I will concede that the FNSM script version did have more room to breathe). I also really wish they could get an artist to make an actual comic over a script, but it has been worth the reading so far.

I read that they plan to at least illustrate a couple of pages of the first issue...but whether that means commisioning a pro to do it or not is up to them. I don't really like the front covers they come up with themselves, they'd be much better off just using established artwork and make use of some clever photoshopping until they can get a pro in.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I think I brought this up before here, but apparently he told fans at conventions he'd been pitching a marriage comeback for a while, and only got permission to do RYV when Secret Wars came about.

I do remember that. I guess I'm not sure if Slott wanted it long-term or just short-term, or if he's satisfied with what he did with it now.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Yes, but Slott also said elements from RYV would greatly impact the books later on. We've seen that manifest through the use of Regent in 616, the "deja vu" Peter and MJ had when fighting him, and in promoting the RYV ongoing, Conway hinted there would be potential for a crossover between the two universes eventually.

True, however did Slott want more than just Regent to carry over?

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I suspect Slott would relish the oppertunity to compare and contrast Peter the single CEO with Peter the humble working-class family man who has everything that Mephisto said his devil-dealing counterpart would pretty much never have.

Well, considering all the suggestions that Parker Industries may be going down the tubes, Slott and Conway might want to work out a crossover soon, if they want to do one. Having the Peter Parker who wound up single but running a big corporation meeting a version of himself who's been less successful career-wise, but is raising a family with the woman that in his own life things fell apart with is a more interesting contrast between a bachelor and family man Peter who're both in a similar financial position. There's a bigger contrast into the circumstances and choices they made, and what they gave up and what they gained instead.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I don't think they're as surprised as they let on. When they found out the newspaper strip was going to bring the marriage back after running for only a few months with a single Peter, they simply said "they can do their story, we'll do ours", they've always been aware there was something to keep the marriage fans going. Slott has brought up the strip several times, even telling fans to read it while Superior Spider-Man was running, and then he wrote a strip story himself for Spide-Verse, taking credit for "sparing" the strip's version of Peter from the events of that story that had already claimed the life of the happily married MC2 Peter (or rather a version similar to him)

Could be. I have gotten the impression that Marvel's official stance is that the "real" Spider-Man can't be married, but "non-canon" versions or "What ifs?" are okay.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I think some of the people in those posistions disagreed with Quesada on some things related to the execution of OMD. Tom Brevoort is of the opinion MJ was still pregnant during The Clone Saga, but Quesada's One Moment In Time story establishes otherwise.

Interesting.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Quesada in a rare interview last year insisted removing the marriage was the 'right thing' to do...though this is the same Quesada who actually produced a variant cover for the last issue of Slott's Renew Your Vows.

Well, a job is a job. (I have to admit that him doing a cover for that series seemed a little in bad taste to me, but I think I was being overly sensitive.)

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Axel Alonzo, now the EIC, was the man in charge of the Spider-line when OMD went down, so maybe he has a lot to do with the recent Mephisto references, perhaps he feels like some of us do that the time travel retcon is perhaps a little too damaging to long-term investment and it's probably better they reveal it was a mind-wipe job, that allows Quesada's story to stand, but allows Brevoort's opinion to become factual and it does'nt create this idea that post-OMD canon does'nt "count"

Could be. However, from where I stand, I think's it too little, too late. Besides, for most people who don't like OMD, it's the story and retcon itself that are the offensive part, not the details. For me, even if it was changed to mind-wipe, not time travel, that wouldn't make things any better, IMHO.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Yes, there is that possibility we've going to enter a vicious cycle with generations of fans...there will be people who have spent their entire young life beleiving Peter and MJ have always been at odds and that Gwen Stacy was always a Web Warrior (something the new cartoon won't be helping with), or that Peter never worked for Jameson and went straight to Horizon. There's always that danger, but that's probably why Marvel are reprinting The Wedding saga this year..to inform that generation (or to inform people new to Renew Your Vows, take your pick)

The irony that I, as someone who oppose OMD, am pretty much coming from the same place that Quesada and others were when they created OMD in the first place isn't lost on me. Not to mention if they did undo OMD, I'd probably be using much of the same arguments that have been brought out to defend OMD, as well.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I read that they plan to at least illustrate a couple of pages of the first issue...but whether that means commisioning a pro to do it or not is up to them. I don't really like the front covers they come up with themselves, they'd be much better off just using established artwork and make use of some clever photoshopping until they can get a pro in.

Yeah, I do understand that having artwork would be really hard, but maybe a few pictures (like in a kid's storybook) would be nice. Agreed that the front covers aren't all that.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

Could be. I have gotten the impression that Marvel's official stance is that the "real" Spider-Man can't be married, but "non-canon" versions or "What ifs?" are okay.

I find the whole "real" thing sort of amusing because if we want to get technical, the "real" canon ended in 2007, and the MC2 universe probably could make a bolder claim for being "real" given that Peter and MJ are much older than 616 Peter and MJ and have all of the same history with the exception of anything that went on in the 2000s. The strip Spider-Man probably ought to have that claim also given it's the more vintage canon, having started in the 70s, it's ran by the Liebers and currently has the longest-lasting version of the marriage in the Spider-Man medium, at least in real time, at 30 years. I still look at post-OMD Spidey as a reletively "new" continuity at just ten years.

Yeah, I do understand that having artwork would be really hard, but maybe a few pictures (like in a kid's storybook) would be nice. Agreed that the front covers aren't all that.

I also gave Doug Ernst a link to the stories, he's intrigued by the first issue and understands where they went with Doc Ock, but thought that the Billy Mays joke dates the series to a certain period (kind of like a lot of jokes Slott has in his books that'll make a generation go "huh?" later on...though this is'nt exclusively a problem he has either)

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I find the whole "real" thing sort of amusing because if we want to get technical, the "real" canon ended in 2007, and the MC2 universe probably could make a bolder claim for being "real" given that Peter and MJ are much older than 616 Peter and MJ and have all of the same history with the exception of anything that went on in the 2000s. The strip Spider-Man probably ought to have that claim also given it's the more vintage canon, having started in the 70s, it's ran by the Liebers and currently has the longest-lasting version of the marriage in the Spider-Man medium, at least in real time, at 30 years. I still look at post-OMD Spidey as a reletively "new" continuity at just ten years.

I suppose that's the crux of the question, is the post-OMD stuff a continuation of the "real" deal or is it a new thing? I guess you could make cases both ways.

I find the question silly since there have been so many renditions and continuities over the years, and different ones will mean more or less to different people. Kind of like that old Superman quote: "This is a fictional story. Aren't they all?"

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I also gave Doug Ernst a link to the stories, he's intrigued by the first issue and understands where they went with Doc Ock, but thought that the Billy Mays joke dates the series to a certain period (kind of like a lot of jokes Slott has in his books that'll make a generation go "huh?" later on...though this is'nt exclusively a problem he has either)

Think I saw that. Topical humor is pretty tricky. Some thing'll age well or work anyways, others won't (for example, most of the late Robin Williams' impersonations as the Genie in Aladdin are still funny even if you don't know who he's pretending to be, while the "let it go" joke in Zootopia will date as soon as Frozen looses it's infamous place in pop culture).

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

I suppose that's the crux of the question, is the post-OMD stuff a continuation of the "real" deal or is it a new thing? I guess you could make cases both ways.

I find the question silly since there have been so many renditions and continuities over the years, and different ones will mean more or less to different people. Kind of like that old Superman quote: "This is a fictional story. Aren't they all?"

Superman's another funny example...DC have bent over backwards to fold pre-flashpoint Superman back into the "Rebirth" version of continuity after fans did'nt take to the five year old New 52 version, and yet pre-flashpoint Superman is'nt as old as the Superman of the Golden or Silver Ages.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Superman's another funny example...DC have bent over backwards to fold pre-flashpoint Superman back into the "Rebirth" version of continuity after fans did'nt take to the five year old New 52 version, and yet pre-flashpoint Superman is'nt as old as the Superman of the Golden or Silver Ages.

Wasn't the pre-Flashpoint Superman a rebooted version of the original comics? I understood that DC used the Crises events to create in-universe reboots of the comics, a la the 2009 Star Trek movie or X-Men: Days of Future Past.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

Wasn't the pre-Flashpoint Superman a rebooted version of the original comics? I understood that DC used the Crises events to create in-universe reboots of the comics, a la the 2009 Star Trek movie or X-Men: Days of Future Past.

Golden Age Superman was a seperate character. At the end of Crises, he journeyed into Alex Luthor's paradise dimension with Golden Age Lois and Superboy, and did'nt return until 2006's Infinite Crisis to try and "fix" the ever increasingly dark DC universe. ("Rebirth" is pretty much rehashing the same idea, only blaming Watchmen characters for how dark the N52 was) Golden Age Superman and Lois wound up dying in that event, while Superboy went insane and became Superboy Prime.

Silver Age Superman ended with the 'imaginary' story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorow" from Alan Moore, it was never really ellaborated on whether or not that reality 'became' Pre-Flashpoint or not. The Silver Age Superman carried on for a little while longer after the original Crisies event before the John Byrne relaunch.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Golden Age Superman was a seperate character. At the end of Crises, he journeyed into Alex Luthor's paradise dimension with Golden Age Lois and Superboy, and did'nt return until 2006's Infinite Crisis to try and "fix" the ever increasingly dark DC universe. ("Rebirth" is pretty much rehashing the same idea, only blaming Watchmen characters for how dark the N52 was) Golden Age Superman and Lois wound up dying in that event, while Superboy went insane and became Superboy Prime.

Silver Age Superman ended with the 'imaginary' story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorow" from Alan Moore, it was never really ellaborated on whether or not that reality 'became' Pre-Flashpoint or not. The Silver Age Superman carried on for a little while longer after the original Crisies event before the John Byrne relaunch.

That sounds really confusing.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

That sounds really confusing.

At least when DC are convoluted, they make it fun.

NYC Toyfare revealed the new wave of Marvel Legends figures...including the new Mary Jane/Spider-Man two-pack, which, interestingly, pairs her with the Parker Industries version.

[ZariusTwo]

Top 100 for January

https://www.previewsworld.com/Articl...Selling-Comics

Probably the most noteworthy thing for this thread is Hydra Cap, the centerpiece of Secret Empire, was outsold last month by an issue of Renew Your Vows focusing on Annie May Parker. People are more interested in Peter's kid than the centerpiece of the 2017 summer blockbuster event. Let that sink in.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

NYC Toyfare revealed the new wave of Marvel Legends figures...including the new Mary Jane/Spider-Man two-pack, which, interestingly, pairs her with the Parker Industries version.

Heard that Mary Jane was getting a figure. Was hoping to get one when they come out. Not sure I'd want the Tron Spider-Man though. Hope you can get them separately (also hope that they sell a regular Spider-Man at the same scale). As far as them packaging the two together, I have noticed that while the comics themselves were trying to sell the idea that MJ and Peter are over and done and were never a good idea in the first place, the merchandising and other tie-ins seemed to present them as star-crossed lovers, at worse. (I specifically recall a post-OMD reference book that specifically labeled MJ as Peter's "one true love," something I was a little surprised they were allowed to do.)

So, it could be a clue of future plans, or just the marketing being a little more flexible. (After all, Spider-Man and MJ are consistently one of the more popular couples in the Marvel franchise.)

At any rate, the toys look nice. I hope that this line doesn't have the stiff hinge problem I've sometimes seen with hyper-jointed action figures like this.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Top 100 for January

https://www.previewsworld.com/Articl...Selling-Comics

Probably the most noteworthy thing for this thread is Hydra Cap, the centerpiece of Secret Empire, was outsold last month by an issue of Renew Your Vows focusing on Annie May Parker. People are more interested in Peter's kid than the centerpiece of the 2017 summer blockbuster event. Let that sink in.

Wasn't HYDRA Cap almost universally hated? I may not know how comics work, but wouldn't a smaller series about a more popular character's franchise, that was building off of a smash hit and was part of a series that has been a fan-favorite be more likely to do better by default?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

the merchandising and other tie-ins seemed to present them as star-crossed lovers, at worse. (I specifically recall a post-OMD reference book that specifically labeled MJ as Peter's "one true love," something I was a little surprised they were allowed to do.)

Well, the afterword in the OMD trade from Stan Lee even labels them as 'star-crossed', so they're probably honoring the original voice of Spider-Man mythos, and the man credited with the marriage concept in the first place.

During the Clone Conspiracy, Gwen admitted to Peter that she figured sooner or later he would choose MJ over her even if she had continued to live, and was saddened to hear the two were not presently seeing much of each other.

As I've maintained, I doubt very much these days this sort of thing is just coincidental or signs of the company "trolling" fans. I'm sure there is a plan to make Peter and MJ happen again in the mainline books, we just have to wait and see.

Wasn't HYDRA Cap almost universally hated? I may not know how comics work, but wouldn't a smaller series about a more popular character's franchise, that was building off of a smash hit and was part of a series that has been a fan-favorite be more likely to do better by default?

You're right on that, Hydra Cap also suffers from heavy-handed political commentary, very much one of the major critiques that led to Marvel's lousy performances in 2016 and presently (hence their "Make Mine Marvel" about face), where as RYV is loose, breezy, and just focuses on a more wholesome story.

Spencer's very public meltdowns over Trump and DC sales outperforming his books haven't helped make him entirely likeable with fans either. He may just outperform Dan Slott in that area.

It still has to stick in Marvel's craw though, considering that, regardless of what fans think, Hydra Cap is supposed to be THE biggest deal in the Marvel Universe right now, with Secret Empire announced last month, and it can't seem to get a sales spike over an alternate-reality title.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Well, the afterword in the OMD trade from Stan Lee even labels them as 'star-crossed', so they're probably honoring the original voice of Spider-Man mythos, and the man credited with the marriage concept in the first place.

Maybe. I just thought it was a funny situation thay the source material was making the case that they didn't belong together, while the rest of the franchise was suggesting they did (or at least that them as a viable couple was a legitimate premise).

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

During the Clone Conspiracy, Gwen admitted to Peter that she figured sooner or later he would choose MJ over her even if she had continued to live, and was saddened to hear the two were not presently seeing much of each other.

How accurate is that to the character in the source material? While I have gotten them impression that 616 Gwen didn't hate MJ, I also got the impression she didn't appreciate her being a potential rival. I also seem to recall that Peter wanted to marry Gwen at the time of her death, and that he and MJ didn't fall in love with each other for real for sometime after.

(Really ironic turn of events for Clone Conspiracy, given that Ultimate Spider-Man also had a scene with a clone Gwen telling Peter she knew that MJ was the one he was truly in love with.)

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

As I've maintained, I doubt very much these days this sort of thing is just coincidental or signs of the company "trolling" fans. I'm sure there is a plan to make Peter and MJ happen again in the mainline books, we just have to wait and see.

I don't trust them, but you never know.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

You're right on that, Hydra Cap also suffers from heavy-handed political commentary, very much one of the major critiques that led to Marvel's lousy performances in 2016 and presently (hence their "Make Mine Marvel" about face), where as RYV is loose, breezy, and just focuses on a more wholesome story.

I have heard negativity to some of Marvel's recent stuff, but I have a very hard time telling if that's the overall opinion, or just the more vocal one.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Spencer's very public meltdowns over Trump and DC sales outperforming his books haven't helped make him entirely likeable with fans either. He may just outperform Dan Slott in that area.

Huh.

I'm frankly through with Trump, so if Spencer doesn't like him, I don't blame him. But still, I think the best revenge is to have a happy life in cases like this and then vote for the people that match your beliefs next election. The man's not worth getting upset over, if you're not planning to write to your representatives or be more constructive in how you handle your displeasure with the commander-in-chief.

As for DC, it is what it is, and what it is is and it's always been a series of ups and downs. Marvel will have its turn soon enough.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

It still has to stick in Marvel's craw though, considering that, regardless of what fans think, Hydra Cap is supposed to be THE biggest deal in the Marvel Universe right now, with Secret Empire announced last month, and it can't seem to get a sales spike over an alternate-reality title.

Spider-Man is a bigger name that Captain America. I don't think Cap is anywhere near Marvel's biggest properties; Spider-Man and X-Men.

(Also worth noting: RYV is still below ASM.)

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

(Also worth noting: RYV is still below ASM.)

Why focus on that? We know RYV is niche. Would we like it to be a bit higher? Sure, but it's still at a sustainable number.