Fred Wolf crossovers and continuity thread

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by neatoman

And since the target audience were little kids who probably never watched the FW show and likely won't care enough to seek it out, why even bother with such details? It's not like the FW writers cared either, there episodes of that show with internal continuity errors.

Anyway, I seriously hope we've seen the last of these things. All they do is try to pander to an ever shrinking segment of fanbase but end up pissing it off instead. All because the Super Friends-like trash relic isn't "being treated with the dignity it deserves".

Great minds think alike

I think they do the Fred Wolf thing because I think it's not just little kids they are marketing towards anymore, otherwise including it would not make sense. I think they have been slowly tapping into the older market, since they seem to be the demographic that will introduce TMNT to their kids and seem to keep the franchise 'alive' during low periods when kids lose interest and there is a 'dry' spell between shows. This is just theory of course, but I think it's why they do these crossovers.

Personally however, I think you do have a point there on the last bit though. I always thought that the crossovers were fanwank and didn't really add much of value (except to establish that Krang is literally related to the Kraangs, that was cool) and ended up taking away time and effort that could have gone to developing stronger plots and better characters that would stand the test of time, rather then a very dated reference that appeals to just one narrow set of people. I think this would better appeal to a broader adult TMNT audience, and would be worth tons more then a lazy cameo.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Great minds think alike

I think they do the Fred Wolf thing because I think it's not just little kids they are marketing towards anymore, otherwise including it would not make sense. I think they have been slowly tapping into the older market, since they seem to be the demographic that will introduce TMNT to their kids and seem to keep the franchise 'alive' during low periods when kids lose interest and there is a 'dry' spell between shows. This is just theory of course, but I think it's why they do these crossovers.

Personally however, I think you do have a point there on the last bit though. I always thought that the crossovers were fanwank and didn't really add much of value (except to establish that Krang is literally related to the Kraangs, that was cool) and ended up taking away time and effort that could have gone to developing stronger plots and better characters that would stand the test of time, rather then a very dated reference that appeals to just one narrow set of people. I think this would better appeal to a broader adult TMNT audience, and would be worth tons more then a lazy cameo.

Yeah, if you count the cameos in season 2 then the Nick show has 6 episodes featuring the FW turtles (7 if you count Tiger Claw's flashback). It might have been fine if they only did that one cameo in season 2, the crossover in season 4 or the three-parter in season 5 but all of them together just feels a bit... cheap? I guess? It really wore out the hook.

I guess you could make the excuse that it's set-up and pay-off but it's a really weird thing to focus on all things considered. Together the FW Turtles show up in more episodes than the following characters (all of whom either appear in multiple episodes already or were clearly set up to come back):

1. Metalhead
2. Murakami
3. Hun
4. Snakeweed
5. The mutant mushrooms
6. Rat King
7. Muckman
8. Alopex
9. Savanti Romero
10. The Creep
11. Pizza Face
12. The Sparrow Wizard
13. The Mutant Squirrels

That's just a small sample, there are actually more. And these were all set up as part of the main world, yet they were deemed less important than the fanwank?

[Metalwolf]

Yeah, it's insane what they were doing. A lot of these were original characters, yet a show from 30 years ago gets a lot more love? Maybe when the ratings started going downhill, they thought another cameo was the antidote...

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Yeah, it's insane what they were doing. A lot of these were original characters, yet a show from 30 years ago gets a lot more love? Maybe when the ratings started going downhill, they thought another cameo was the antidote...

Yeah I realise the ratings for the Nickelodeon channel has been dropping dramatically over the past decade and this show was just but one of the shows suffering. Bad ratings are still bad ratings though...

The funny thing about the crossovers is that the mid season 2 cameo were the second highest rated episodes of that season, the one crossover where the FW turtles had cameos that could have easily been edited out. When it came to the actual crossovers the one is season 4 had really mediocre ratings and the ones in season 5 did worse.

Just a little ratings trivia, the highpoint was Vengeance is Mine and the lowpoint was When Worlds Collide. The Mad Max arc and the classic monsters arc might have done worse as there aren't any official rating released.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Yeah I realise the ratings for the Nickelodeon channel has been dropping dramatically over the past decade and this show was just but one of the shows suffering. Bad ratings are still bad ratings though...

The funny thing about the crossovers is that the mid season 2 cameo were the second highest rated episodes of that season, the one crossover where the FW turtles had cameos that could have easily been edited out. When it came to the actual crossovers the one is season 4 had really mediocre ratings and the ones in season 5 did worse.

Just a little ratings trivia, the highpoint was Vengeance is Mine and the lowpoint was When Worlds Collide. The Mad Max arc and the classic monsters arc might have done worse as there aren't any official rating released.

So it is probably showing that the crossovers had limited power to draw in viewers. That's kind of interesting. I think it probably also accounts for the box office failure of the OOTS movie, as it looked they'd began to bank a little too hard on FW being 'enough' to make fans wanna see it.

I wonder if the ViM episode good ratings is a sign that people want stuff like that, not goofy crossovers or a cheap gimmick. Stuff were the baddies are scarily and competently good at what they are doing and the heroes could be believed to be in danger, A.K.A good writing.

It would be interesting to see what the Monsters or Mad Max episodes' ratings were. I imagine the Mad Max stuff would be seen as hardcore 'downer' episodes, so probably pretty low and maybe not as well liked.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

That's just a small sample, there are actually more. And these were all set up as part of the main world, yet they were deemed less important than the fanwank?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

So it is probably showing that the crossovers had limited power to draw in viewers. That's kind of interesting. I think it probably also accounts for the box office failure of the OOTS movie, as it looked they'd began to bank a little too hard on FW being 'enough' to make fans wanna see it.

I wonder if the ViM episode good ratings is a sign that people want stuff like that, not goofy crossovers or a cheap gimmick. Stuff were the baddies are scarily and competently good at what they are doing and the heroes could be believed to be in danger, A.K.A good writing.

It would be interesting to see what the Monsters or Mad Max episodes' ratings were. I imagine the Mad Max stuff would be seen as hardcore 'downer' episodes, so probably pretty low and maybe not as well liked.

I think the reason the crossovers failed to generate ratings is that they kind of rely on fan interest. The problem with that is obviously age, the average person who grew up watching the FW show were pushing 40 by the time the last one came out, they're typically not care. Banking on them waking up sunday morning to watch a cartoon just because it guest stars voice actors from some show they watched 30 years ago, it's kind of thinking the JLA movie would have done better if it was titled Super Friends.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by neatoman

it's kind of thinking the JLA movie would have done better if it was titled Super Friends.

I like how you frequently compare Fred Wolf tmnt to super friends, like its your no.1 go to comparison

Now I wanna see some fan art of the two groups meeting.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Banking on them waking up sunday morning to watch a cartoon just because it guest stars voice actors from some show they watched 30 years ago

Yes, or that people even watch television the same way as they did 30 years ago. Ratings are an out dated way of tracking a shows popularity in my opinion. My kids going to be 3 this May and has never even watched a show that was airing live/day of. The problem with that is by the time you watch the show. Maybe months or a year after originally released it could have already been canceled. I’m fine with only Netflix but others in my fam like Hulu and Amazon. But we haven’t watched basic tv channels in eight years. When 2012 was on I watched either Netflix for episodes or got DVDs.

More and more people are show waiting the same as trade waiting in comics. Trying to watch a program when it first shows is just another stressor for families with kids (target demo) to fit into a busy schedule.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I like how you frequently compare Fred Wolf tmnt to super friends, like its your no.1 go to comparison

Now I wanna see some fan art of the two groups meeting.

Yeah I know but I can't help but see the parallels in terms of origin, relation to source material, pop culture signifigance and how fans perceive it.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Yeah I know but I can't help but see the parallels in terms of origin, relation to source material, pop culture signifigance and how fans perceive it.

As much as our opinions are different, I can't help but agree that the two are very similar.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I like how you frequently compare Fred Wolf tmnt to super friends, like its your no.1 go to comparison

It's not even an accurate comparison.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I think the reason the crossovers failed to generate ratings is that they kind of rely on fan interest. The problem with that is obviously age, the average person who grew up watching the FW show were pushing 40 by the time the last one came out, they're typically not care. Banking on them waking up sunday morning to watch a cartoon just because it guest stars voice actors from some show they watched 30 years ago, it's kind of thinking the JLA movie would have done better if it was titled Super Friends.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Speaking of the Justice League, who came up with the idea of renaming them the Superfriends? Was it a legal issue? Or because they added new members?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Speaking of the Justice League, who came up with the idea of renaming them the Superfriends? Was it a legal issue? Or because they added new members?

Officially it's because the producers felt Justice League was too "serious" of a title, if that sounds like a stupid reason to you then it probably was a stupid reason. Then again, this is Hanna Barbera we're talking about here, they were known for doing stupid things to established franchises. Do you know what they did when they got the license to the Thing from the Fantastic Four? They turned him into a regular human teenager who transformed into the Thing at will (which goes against the point of the Thing), then smashed it together with an unrelated Flintstones cartoon to hit 13 episodes.

When you ask if it's a legal issue, that could actually be the real reason. Filmation produced 3 episodes of a Justice League cartoon in 1967, a mere 6 years before Super Friends. So it's possible that Filmation might still have had the trademark on titling a TV show "Justice League". I don't know what American trademark law was like back then but a quick google search reveals that these days a trademark expires after 10 years.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Filmation produced 3 episodes of a Justice League cartoon in 1967

I have watched all three episodes now, and they have many members and allies missing, including Batman. So maybe there was some dispute between Filmation Studios and Hanna-Barbera Studios during the late 1960's and early 1970's (even if there were some years between the cartoons).

Another theory is that when the Superfriends debuted in September 1973, the military forces of the USA had just left North Vietnam in January the same year. The name Justice League of America wasn't the coolest thing in the world (even if you could drop America from the title).

[Leo656]

They most likely didn't use Batman in the Filmation JLA shorts because Filmation was preparing a solo Batman cartoon for the following year, "The Adventures of Batman". The skits were also repackaged in "The Batman/Superman Hour" and later as "Batman With Robin, The Boy Wonder". So they probably felt like that was a better use of their "Batman" resources, and saw no reason to put him into the JLA shorts.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Do you know what they did when they got the license to the Thing from the Fantastic Four? They turned him into a regular human teenager who transformed into the Thing at will (which goes against the point of the Thing),

I have to say that isn't a bad workaround although yeah I can see why purists would hate that idea. Anyway why are we talking about a totally unrelated cartoon series. This is TMNT!

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by pferreira

I have to say that isn't a bad workaround although yeah I can see why purists would hate that idea. Anyway why are we talking about a totally unrelated cartoon series. This is TMNT!

TMNT just didn't pop up from out of nowhere in May 1984. The stories were inspired by over 50 years of American hero and superhero comics and cartoons (I'm not only talking about their origins being inspired by Daredevil).

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

TMNT just didn't pop up from out of nowhere in May 1984. The stories were inspired by over 50 years of American hero and superhero comics and cartoons (I'm not only talking about their origins being inspired by Daredevil).

That is true but I'm not convinced (yet) SuperFriends was responsible for anything.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Although I don't believe that the 1987 turtles seen in Turtles Forever are the real turtles

They're meant to be. No production comapny would spend money on a plot like:

–Let's produce a crossover where the 4 Kids turtles team up with a parody of the Fred Wolf Turtles