Things the FW series doesn't get enough credit for?

[Prowler]

We all know about the worst things about the FW series and its impact on the property as a whole. But what about the good things?

Making Baxter Stockman a major villain: In Mirage, Baxter appears in the 2nd or 3rd issue and then only reappears years later in Volume 2. By then it was already 1994 or so? No way did Laird and Eastman expect to use him again, let alone years later, when they originally drew him back in 1984-1985. The FW series made him into one of the core villains of the TMNT property.

Making a Donatello that can actually kick ass: FW Donatello is arguably the best iteration of the character. He's not only a nerd but also has a temper and can fight. He's almost the leader of the group. Granted his tech achievements and scientific knowledge is a bit exaggerated for a teenage Turtle that has never had any sort of education, but other than that he doesn't have any major flaws in this version.

Donatello was my favourite alongside Raphael when I was a kid, so it was kinda disappointing to see how he's been handled in other TMNT versions since then. They tried to make him cool in the original live action movie... but they made him a bit annoying.

There's probably, more, but these are the ones I can think of for now. What about you?

[CyberCubed]

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

[neatoman]

I guess it doesn't get enough credit for stretching out its season count by making almost half of them less than 10 episodes long, thereby making its time on the air seem more impressive than it actually is.

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

It doesn't get enough credit for making Peter Laird angry enough to keep tighter creative control for 20 years, thereby limiting it's influence until 2009.

Beyond these points, I'd the show gets far more credit than it deserves.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by neatoman

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

James Bond Junior was actually a major hit here in Sweden by 1992–1993.

[MikeandRaph87]

A few things come to mind-
Making The Shredder into a reoccurring threat opposed to first threat.

Expanding the character roster from other mutants outside the core five and Leatherhead.

Making Rat King a prominent character. After Shredder and Krang, Rat King is the most prominent foe. He may vary by iteration,but he is a constant presence because someone read Tales of TMNT#4 and quickly used him in the show.

Giving diverse identities to the characters and especially building Michelangelo who was the most static in the early Mirage Comics. Other media fails to understand what he was in this show,he was not a stoned surfer, but a fun loving teenager and athlete who was the heart of the team.

A small note, actually staying in the same lair from the first episode to beyond the last episode.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

A small note, actually staying in the same lair from the first episode to beyond the last episode.

The Turtle Lair looks different during season 1, so it's possible the turtles relocated between seasons 1 and 2.

[pferreira]

It seems since I've been on this site that the series is quite underrated therefore I guess there's a lot that's underrated about it?

- Some of the animation is pretty solid for the time.

- The voice actors really get into their roles before the self-referentialism acting of later TMNT iterations set in. This was obviously due to changes in how people viewed the word. Everything today is taken much less seriously, there's more winking to audiences today. Before anyone complains "hang on a second, in this cartoon the TMNT talk to camera." You could say the same thing about He-Man from back then. Well yeah they do but it's taken seriously, the acting and writing gives those characters a reality. Today characters in films and TV are either written as deadly serious with dry witty remarks or the intentional annoying, unfunny comic relief. Compare the presentation of 80s TMNT to the 2003 ones for an example of this. There is no in-between. They just seems to be trying too hard today but they end up coming across they aren't taking it seriously.

- For me one of the biggest pluses of the cartoon series was how it contributed to my imagination. through it's plots. While the plots were mostly based on sci-fi and horror B-movies from the 50s I had no frame of reference at that time so it felt new. Not just that but the combination of those retro/retro-futuristic plots with the blending of then modern was amazing! So I'm thankful for the Fred Wolf cartoon series for all this.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

James Bond Junior was actually a major hit here in Sweden by 1992–1993.

You expect an ignorant troll to use logic?

Originally Posted by neatoman

I guess it doesn't get enough credit for stretching out its season count by making almost half of them less than 10 episodes long, thereby making its time on the air seem more impressive than it actually is.

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

It doesn't get enough credit for making Peter Laird angry enough to keep tighter creative control for 20 years, thereby limiting it's influence until 2009.

Beyond these points, I'd the show gets far more credit than it deserves.

So much ignorance, so much hate. Did the 80s cartoon or Fred Wolf personally hurt you? Why do you bother???

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by pferreira

It seems since I've been on this site that the series is quite underrated

You've got to be kidding me.

And if there's one thing that the FW gets, is way too much credit. For everything. Too many "nods" to it, too much nostalgia for it, too many "homages" to it, too much of all of it.

Cement shoes.

[AquaParade]

I think it generally receives a high amount of credit, and rightfully so.

You can love it or hate it, but even if you hate it, you must acknowledge two major things it has done:

- Introduced mass audiences to the TMNT and served as the main gateway to other, arguably superior, versions of the TMNT.
Some of us may have never found the Mirage books without the popularity of the cartoon.

- Extended the life of the entire franchise, enabling further possibilities for the brand.
Like an auteur director who supports his passion projects by directing a summer blockbuster, the pop-culture influence of the old toon has been a major propellant for the franchise to this day. We may still receive dividends from this, if the franchise ever decides to sit up straight and deliver the kick-ass material we all know it is capable of. The fact that there is a chance, however slim, is due to the success of the cartoon.

That said, I can imagine the perspective that the show has been nothing but detrimental to the franchise in general, given that it is a drastic change in tone from the source material which highly divides the fan-base and warps the general perception of the franchise in the public eye.
But to that, I'd say the source material is always there to be enjoyed. I'd also say that Mirage studios had a hell of a run, and also likely benefited from the success of the cartoon.
I don't think the cartoon ever truly got in Mirage's way, and I don't strongly believe the franchise would have any stronger a chance of existing in any, possibly faithful, adaption today, had the cartoon not existed.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by pferreira

You could say the same thing about He-Man from back then.

Many 1980's cartoons had those lines after the episode. TMNT only had a few Turtle Tips about the environment and pollution during season 4, not so much more.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You've got to be kidding me.

And if there's one thing that the FW gets, is way too much credit. For everything. Too many "nods" to it, too much nostalgia for it, too many "homages" to it, too much of all of it.

Cement shoes.

This. It gets most all the credit, except whenever somebody decides to be oh so edgy and trot out a black and white Turtle in a red mask. Because the Mirage universe is a dark and monochromatic void of grittiness and despair.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

You shut your damn mouth, you filthy casual.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

The biggest thing which I think that the series doesn't get enough credit for, is the wonderful chemistry between the characters, which is mostly due to their voice actors who really put their heart into the performances.

I feel that a lot of people who are overall critical of the show, are so because they wanted it to be something it is not.

The Fred Wolf series was never meant to be story heavy, violent action-driven and about a cycle of revenge like the Mirage comic books, and the creators were certainly clear about what they wanted, which was a show about all these colourful characters all bouncing off each other and being entertaining.

The core aspect of the show: the aspect of character interactions and performances is something which I feel the show nailed very well, possibly even better than all the other tmnt cartoons combined.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

Well, it did introduce me to sci-fi. Just like it introduced me to ninjas and Japanese stuff in general, even though hardly anything Japanese in the show is accurate.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I guess it doesn't get enough credit for stretching out its season count by making almost half of them less than 10 episodes long, thereby making its time on the air seem more impressive than it actually is.

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

It doesn't get enough credit for making Peter Laird angry enough to keep tighter creative control for 20 years, thereby limiting it's influence until 2009.

Beyond these points, I'd the show gets far more credit than it deserves.

Yeah what else has Fred Wolf even done?

It's indeed odd how the last 3 seasons were only 8 episodes each. Renewing a show that was dying after the TurtleMania boom in 1990-1992 began its rapid decline was a strange thing. But at least it had a decent enough ending. A lot of cartoons just end on a random episode.

Come to think of it, seasons 3 and 4 are abnormalities. They're HUGE. like 48-52 episodes each or something like that.

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

A few things come to mind-
Making The Shredder into a reoccurring threat opposed to first threat.

Expanding the character roster from other mutants outside the core five and Leatherhead.

Making Rat King a prominent character. After Shredder and Krang, Rat King is the most prominent foe. He may vary by iteration,but he is a constant presence because someone read Tales of TMNT#4 and quickly used him in the show.

Giving diverse identities to the characters and especially building Michelangelo who was the most static in the early Mirage Comics. Other media fails to understand what he was in this show,he was not a stoned surfer, but a fun loving teenager and athlete who was the heart of the team.

A small note, actually staying in the same lair from the first episode to beyond the last episode.

Well it definitely gets credit for making Shredder the turtles's arch-nemesis.

I guess some Mirage purists don't like the idea of Shredder being THE main villain in TMNT and a guy they have trouble defeating, but what hero or character doesn't have an arch-nemesis? Batman has The Joker, Superman has Lex Luthor, Mario has Bowser, Sonic has Dr. Robotnik, Link has Ganon(dorf). Why can't the Turtles have Shredder?

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You've got to be kidding me.

And if there's one thing that the FW gets, is way too much credit. For everything. Too many "nods" to it, too much nostalgia for it, too many "homages" to it, too much of all of it.

I meant on this forum. Outside sure I totally agree. On here I detect mostly hate and belittlement towards the original cartoon series.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I don't think the cartoon ever truly got in Mirage's way, and I don't strongly believe the franchise would have any stronger a chance of existing in any, possibly faithful, adaption today, had the cartoon not existed.

Here's the thing: when people are asked the positives of the FW series I see a lot of people list the overall things above but nothing specific in terms of the series content. I never hear anyone talk on here about classic episodes of the series and what makes the series special. The overall positives I get are it helped with merchandise and public awareness which is in kind of selling the series short in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Many 1980's cartoons had those lines after the episode. TMNT only had a few Turtle Tips about the environment and pollution during season 4, not so much more.

I mean Raph talked to camera a fair bit during the series but the writing and voice acting seemed to be free of cynicism. This is the problem with Hollywood today. In trying to deliver the 'Magic of Hollywood' there isn't that naivety in the content anymore. There's this misplaced logic that making everything cynical and grounded in reality makes it real. It's like comparing the 1978 Superman movie with Man of Steel. On the face of it the 70s Superman movie is absurd and camp viewed today but it doesn't matter because the characters feel real, therefore relatable. Man of Steel takes the approach of today's writing/acting but the characters act more absurd therefore they don't come across as real. The reason the FW series worked so well wasn't because of just good voice acting, it was the ability by the writers as well to commit and create likable characters.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

You shut your damn mouth, you filthy casual.

While I don't totally agree Cubed has to an extent a point. It helped make me want to tell stories and create universes so I'm thankful for the 80s cartoon for doing that.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

The core aspect of the show: the aspect of character interactions and performances is something which I feel the show nailed very well, possibly even better than all the other tmnt cartoons combined.

That goes back to what i said in my previous post about being able to write centered characters. Sure if you can have an actor come in and make something out of nothing that helps but most of the time you got to have a character that doesn't fall into one emotion, a problem for example the 2003 series committed. That doesn't mean the 2003 series is bad, just that it's characterisation isn't its best quality.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Yeah what else has Fred Wolf even done?

It's indeed odd how the last 3 seasons were only 8 episodes each. Renewing a show that was dying after the TurtleMania boom in 1990-1992 began its rapid decline was a strange thing. But at least it had a decent enough ending. A lot of cartoons just end on a random episode.

Come to think of it, seasons 3 and 4 are abnormalities. They're HUGE. like 48-52 episodes each or something like that.

You know how Fant4stic exists for no other reason than to prevent the film rights to the Fantastic Four from ending up in Disney's hands (which has ironically happened anyway)? Since Next Mutation began production right after the Fred Wolf show ended, I assume the license required the show to constantly be in production and that the rights would revert once profuction ceased, which obviously you wouldn't want to happen if you have nothing else to fall back on.

As for the absurdly long seasons. The third gave the show a total of 65 episodes, a minimum for syndication and a very common episode count for cartoons to end up with. As for season four, I'm not sure?

My best guess for season four is that they ****ed up somehow. 15 episodes aired in syndication, 26 on CBS and the chopped out vacation arc is 13, leaving the total 54. You could say that pushing it over 100 episodes would always make sure they could get a syndication deal but the show stopped being in syndication during the season and if that was the plan then 35 would have been enough.

Here's what I think might have happened: 13 and 26 are both considered pretty normal episode counts for cartoon seasons, 15 is a bit weird but not weirder than 5, 20, 14, 16 or 8. Fred Wolf might already have been planning on making shorter seasons after season three but for one reason or another ended up ordering more batches than planned around the same time, possibly as part of some exclusivity deal with CBS.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Fred Wolf first orders 15 episodes to continue in syndication, when that has already started production CBS asks for an exclusive season, to which they agree. For whatever reason, they then forget about the exclusive season and orders another season set in europe which does end up being produced, it's just put on the shelf once they remember the exclusive deal.

Again, I have no idea if that guess is even remotely accurate, it's just a possible explaination for what happened.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by pferreira

I meant on this forum. Outside sure I totally agree. On here I detect mostly hate and belittlement towards the original cartoon series.

Here's the thing: when people are asked the positives of the FW series I see a lot of people list the overall things above but nothing specific in terms of the series content. I never hear anyone talk on here about classic episodes of the series and what makes the series special. The overall positives I get are it helped with merchandise and public awareness which is in kind of selling the series short in my opinion.

I mean Raph talked to camera a fair bit during the series but the writing and voice acting seemed to be free of cynicism. This is the problem with Hollywood today. In trying to deliver the 'Magic of Hollywood' there isn't that naivety in the content anymore. There's this misplaced logic that making everything cynical and grounded in reality makes it real. It's like comparing the 1978 Superman movie with Man of Steel. On the face of it the 70s Superman movie is absurd and camp viewed today but it doesn't matter because the characters feel real, therefore relatable. Man of Steel takes the approach of today's writing/acting but the characters act more absurd therefore they don't come across as real. The reason the FW series worked so well wasn't because of just good voice acting, it was the ability by the writers as well to commit and create likable characters.

While I don't totally agree Cubed has to an extent a point. It helped make me want to tell stories and create universes so I'm thankful for the 80s cartoon for doing that.

That goes back to what i said in my previous post about being able to write centered characters. Sure if you can have an actor come in and make something out of nothing that helps but most of the time you got to have a character that doesn't fall into one emotion, a problem for example the 2003 series committed. That doesn't mean the 2003 series is bad, just that it's characterisation isn't its best quality.

I hear what you're saying about the positive aspects of the series being neglected, but keep in mind that the section of my post which you quoted is directed towards those who dislike the series.

But again, I hear you. I can say that I do truly love the series. It's clearly not my favorite rendition of the characters, but I certainly have fun with it. I love the character design, the odd synth'y soundtrack, the irreverent humor. I think its greatest strength is that it's just a really feel-good show. I probably chuckle once or twice an episode at most, but it's actually quite a pleasant world to "live in", if you feel like vegging out for a few hours.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

Agreed. It was my introduction to sci-fi as a kid, even though I didn’t even know about the genre back then.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

The biggest thing which I think that the series doesn't get enough credit for, is the wonderful chemistry between the characters, which is mostly due to their voice actors who really put their heart into the performances.

I feel that a lot of people who are overall critical of the show, are so because they wanted it to be something it is not.

The Fred Wolf series was never meant to be story heavy, violent action-driven and about a cycle of revenge like the Mirage comic books, and the creators were certainly clear about what they wanted, which was a show about all these colourful characters all bouncing off each other and being entertaining.

The core aspect of the show: the aspect of character interactions and performances is something which I feel the show nailed very well, possibly even better than all the other tmnt cartoons combined.

I agree. Voice acting was one of the cartoon’s strong points. I still like the show but not as much as the 2003 series and the 1990 film. Good for its time, though. Some episodes are more enjoyable for me as an adult, as a lot of the humour such as Raphael’s sarcastic remarks and the banter between Shredder and Krang went over my head as a kid.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Yeah what else has Fred Wolf even done?

A fair bit. Don't get me wrong, TMNT is Fred Wolf Films biggest show but they produced other series, a couple that were pretty successful at the time.

Originally Posted by neatoman

As for the absurdly long seasons. The third gave the show a total of 65 episodes, a minimum for syndication and a very common episode count for cartoons to end up with. As for season four, I'm not sure?

So it never occurred to you that perhaps CBS ordered so many episodes for the fourth season because not only due to the show's success but because they wanted a new episode shown every day as was the norm back then?

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I hear what you're saying about the positive aspects of the series being neglected, but keep in mind that the section of my post which you quoted is directed towards those who dislike the series.

Don't worry, my post wasn't directed squarely at you but rather a worrying thought that the FW series will only be remembered in years to come for it's merchandise and exposing the franchise all because the hardcore fans are embarrassed by it to not embrace the content of the series.

At least that's the impression I get on this forum...

[Leo656]

Lots of people are perfectly fine putting their kids' toys in a box once they get to a certain point, looking back on them fondly but not still engaging with them on the same level as they did when they were children, and they don't feel that they, as adults, still have to display the same reverence for something they liked when they were eight that they did back then.

It's okay to be objective and call things what they are. FW TMNT was by no means "high art"; in an era of cartoons as toy commercials, it was one of the better toy commercials and had a wee bit more substance than, say, Toxic Crusaders or whatnot. Sometimes it was clever, sometimes it was dreck.

It got a lot of people to like TMNT, sure. And a lot of us almost immediately wanted something with more substance. That should be okay. Speaking for myself, I fell into TMNT with the show, but if not for the Archie comics and the 1990 film, I wouldn't have stuck with it.

I must say, the vehement way that some grown-ups feel they have to defend the FW show is a bit disconcerting. There's plenty "wrong" with everything we liked back then, and when someone points it out, that shouldn't be a problem. TMNT wasn't perfect. Real Ghostbusters wasn't perfect. Masters of the Universe wasn't perfect. It's okay for people to admit it.

Unless that person hasn't moved on even a little bit in 25 years, which would be... something.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I think it generally receives a high amount of credit, and rightfully so.

You can love it or hate it, but even if you hate it, you must acknowledge two major things it has done:

- Introduced mass audiences to the TMNT and served as the main gateway to other, arguably superior, versions of the TMNT.
Some of us may have never found the Mirage books without the popularity of the cartoon.

- Extended the life of the entire franchise, enabling further possibilities for the brand.
Like an auteur director who supports his passion projects by directing a summer blockbuster, the pop-culture influence of the old toon has been a major propellant for the franchise to this day. We may still receive dividends from this, if the franchise ever decides to sit up straight and deliver the kick-ass material we all know it is capable of. The fact that there is a chance, however slim, is due to the success of the cartoon.

That said, I can imagine the perspective that the show has been nothing but detrimental to the franchise in general, given that it is a drastic change in tone from the source material which highly divides the fan-base and warps the general perception of the franchise in the public eye.
But to that, I'd say the source material is always there to be enjoyed. I'd also say that Mirage studios had a hell of a run, and also likely benefited from the success of the cartoon.
I don't think the cartoon ever truly got in Mirage's way, and I don't strongly believe the franchise would have any stronger a chance of existing in any, possibly faithful, adaption today, had the cartoon not existed.

I think this post sums it up pretty well. I think the OT was essential for the franchise in terms of growing its popularity. My first exposure to TMNT was through the OT and then as I got older I discovered the original comics.