Dan DiDio OUT at DC Comics

[King Kahn]

Didio LOVED comics but he was also the problem.

He harbored toxic people in the industry and kept old tropes and ideas alive.

Hopefully they don't put a bean counter in place of him and maybe someone with newer, younger ideas.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by King Kahn

He harbored toxic people in the industry and kept old tropes and ideas alive.

I thought he himsrlf was the toxic person? There was that editor Berganza*that was not known by fans at large who was a sexual harasser, but I don't know of others.

Old tropes and ideas? No marriages and heroes much sacrifice happiness because their personal misery drives them to save lives?

[Andrew NDB]

Oh, I know all about Eddie Berganza. He stole two chicks away from me, too.

[King Kahn]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I thought he himsrlf was the toxic person? There was that editor Berganza*that was not known by fans at large who was a sexual harasser, but I don't know of others.

Old tropes and ideas? No marriages and heroes much sacrifice happiness because their personal misery drives them to save lives?

Yeah. He was a bit toxic too but it was more so harboring a culture of toxicity.

Yeah. Old tropes. He def didn’t like sidekicks because it “aged” the heroes. He tried at every turn to kill them off. Especially ones like nightwing, Wally west etc. he refused to reboot allllll the comics when they did the whole rebirth thing. They kept the green lantern and Batman continuity since these two properties were selling which led to convoluted backstories and plot devices to explain things thereby negating what they were trying to do by rebooting things.

[ZariusTwo]

DC knows what they did to Jon all too well

[PizzaPower1985]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I doubt it's been mentioned... When Jenette Kahn left DC the company has largely changed and morphed into a mutant/plant-monster hybrid of its former self. Paul Levitz stepping down and basically getting out means that DC is no longer DC.

DiDio KNEW almost nothing about DC Continuity and whoever it was that kept blocking Mark Waid from writing Supermaan... I dunno but I blame DiDio.

I have a close personal friend/relative that wrote nasty, dirty, filthy, hateful letters to DC when Levitz stepped down. But truthfully, since Jenette left, my heart has been broken BECAUSE SHE RESPECTED MY CHARACTERS. SHE ACTUALLY LOVED AND NURTURED THEM. Basically? F*CK DiDio.

Now, that said...

IF (with a gun to my head) I had to praise him, I would say this...

"Thanks Dan, for letting Paul Dini write Detective Comics. He gave us one of the best runs on 'Tec in recent memory. Good decision."

But alas, he also let Morrison destroy Bruce's legend in the Batman title and I haven't read a new DC Comic since Damian was introduced in main canon so... I guess my thanks is kinda half-hearted.

[Leo656]

Mark Waid is a very good Flash writer but not a very good Superman writer. Even his best story containing Superman - "Kingdom Come" - has a plot that only comes to pass because Superman's kind of not too bright in it. Or at least suffers from tunnel-vision and lack of foresight. Great story, but there's reasons it should never be canon.

"Birthright" was plenty. I don't think I'd like Waid on a Superman ongoing. Not every writer is great at everything.

[AquaParade]

What? Morrison's Batman is the greatest modern mainstream superhero comic, imo.

[Leo656]

Ehhhh I don't think I'd go THAT far. Then again, I don't keep up like I used to.

Grant's stuff is an acquired taste. I like that he thinks "big", but he has a terrible time in putting his own LSD-soaked ideas out there in ways that make sense to casual readers and people who are less-inclined to read Continuity Porn.

Big fan, generally speaking, but Grant's one of those writers that whenever people say they don't like him, I completely get their reasoning even though I don't agree with it.

I haven't read any Batman since "Flashpoint", myself, but at first I seriously did not like his "Black Glove"/"R.I.P" run... then I re-read it in one long shot and found it absolutely brilliant. But as it was coming out, I thought the guy had lost his mind and that the stories were awful. And reading them monthly, it WAS a chore... but that's kind of how a lot of his work is.

"Final Crisis", same thing - although some of that had a ton to do with DC not telling everyone they HAD to read "Superman Beyond" for the main mini to make sense - week-by-week, it's a confusing, over-cooked, masturbatory mess. But if you take two hours and read the entire thing in bulk, it's... kinda SOME of that, still, but you can recognize the poetry in what he was trying to do. I think it's brilliant, but there's no middle ground at all on it, it's either Awesome of Garbage to most people.

So yeah, I'unno. I generally love Grant's stuff BUT I also don't think he's half as clever as he thinks he is. So when people say they can't stand him, I sigh, but I understand.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Mark Waid is a very good Flash writer but not a very good Superman writer. Even his best story containing Superman - "Kingdom Come" - has a plot that only comes to pass because Superman's kind of not too bright in it. Or at least suffers from tunnel-vision and lack of foresight. Great story, but there's reasons it should never be canon.

"Birthright" was plenty. I don't think I'd like Waid on a Superman ongoing. Not every writer is great at everything.

Oh, I'm not really that keen on a Waid Superman ongoing... but it would have been interesting to see what he'd do. I think, especially after he lobbied them very hard, Waid should have at least been given a chance.

But I suspect whatever he wrote would pale in comparison to Byrne/Stern and whatever came out when Carlin edited the franchise.

[Leo656]

Wasn't Waid one of the guys who did the Big Pitch in 2000 or so, where Brainiac had hypnotized everyone and so that would facilitate a big reboot, where Lois would forget her entire relationship with Clark, most of everything post-'86 would be "forgotten" by everyone except Clark himself, and thus there'd be a big blank slate to "start over" on?

I hated that. They'd just done "Brainiac hypnotized everyone" a couple of years earlier with "Dead Again" and most people agreed that the entire idea was hokey and nonsensical on its face. Doing the same thing, just on a much larger and messier scale, would have been lame and they weren't in need of a reboot, anyway.

Although I'm not *sure* that was Waid, I'm just going from memory. And unless I'm mistaken Morrison might've had his fingers in that as well. Anyways, whoever's idea that was, it was lame. Reeked of arrogance and "I hated Byrne's reboot, I can do better" type stuff.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

What? Morrison's Batman is the greatest modern mainstream superhero comic, imo.

How "modern" are we talking here? And be careful, you're talking to a 34 year old fogey that has little respect in DC (or Marvel) for much past the year 1991.

Of course it's completely subjective BUT...
I think if we're talking "greatest" in modern it has to go to someone who knows Batman on a very personal level. Paul Dini grew up with Batman and got inside his head. And to top it off, his stories were mostly done-in-one detective yarns, the way Alan Grant and Normie Breyfogle (RIP) used to do. Dini became Bruce when he wrote him.

Morrison just read through a bunch of history and checked off all of the "WTF" boxes. Zebra Batman? Check. Zur-in-Ar? Check! Oh wait, Batman had a kid with Talia? Check! His run was like an yellow LSD-induced fever dream that proved that the Silver Age should rarely be touched in Batman history. And I don't think he wrote any done-in-one detective yarns in his entire run?
He's not the worst Batman writer ever? That probably goes to Robert Kaniger in the 50's BUT he's not the best.

[Leo656]

Ehhhh that's not all entirely fair but I respect your experience.

I will say though that Grant's Batman stuff plays great when you're full of coffee and sleep-deprived. But no, I guess it's not for everyone.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Wasn't Waid one of the guys who did the Big Pitch in 2000 or so, where Brainiac had hypnotized everyone and so that would facilitate a big reboot, where Lois would forget her entire relationship with Clark, most of everything post-'86 would be "forgotten" by everyone except Clark himself, and thus there'd be a big blank slate to "start over" on?

I hated that. They'd just done "Brainiac hypnotized everyone" a couple of years earlier with "Dead Again" and most people agreed that the entire idea was hokey and nonsensical on its face. Doing the same thing, just on a much larger and messier scale, would have been lame and they weren't in need of a reboot, anyway.

Although I'm not *sure* that was Waid, I'm just going from memory. And unless I'm mistaken Morrison might've had his fingers in that as well. Anyways, whoever's idea that was, it was lame. Reeked of arrogance and "I hated Byrne's reboot, I can do better" type stuff.

You're right. Waid on Supes would have been bad. I completely forgot that he has a hard on for the Silver Age and that he HATED Byrne's run. The other guy responsible for the BIG PITCH in 2000 was Morrison, who wrote the EXCELLENT All-Star series (love that because it's OUT OF CONTINUITY). But Morrison isn't that great with Superman otherwise. Imagine Waid and Morrison bouncing kookie, zaney, Silver Age fever dream ideas back and forth. That's NOT a Superman run I'd ever wanna read.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I like All-Star alright but it's best served out of continuity. Too "zany", although its heart is in the right place.

I come to find that if you force people to be honest, those who say "All-Star" is the best Superman story they've ever read, it's also usually the ONLY one they've ever read. It's Fine but it's soooooo Silver Age Goofy, and if you're like me and consider that "the dark ages" then it has a little less appeal. I do enjoy it, though.

I loved how Superman was presented in "Final Crisis" but I'm kind of a mark for any "Superman is what everything comes from, he's the most important thing in the universe" stories and that's what that ended up being so I'm a little bit biased.

Like when he carves his own "epitaph" and it says, "To Be Continued..." That was great. So yeah, I think there are a lot of great writers who do great work but require oversight. Morrison and Waid both count. Love Waid's Flash, just LOVE it. More tepid about his Superman.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, I like All-Star alright but it's best served out of continuity. Too "zany", although its heart is in the right place.

I come to find that if you force people to be honest, those who say "All-Star" is the best Superman story they've ever read, it's also usually the ONLY one they've ever read. It's Fine but it's soooooo Silver Age Goofy, and if you're like me and consider that "the dark ages" then it has a little less appeal. I do enjoy it, though.

I loved how Superman was presented in "Final Crisis" but I'm kind of a mark for any "Superman is what everything comes from, he's the most important thing in the universe" stories and that's what that ended up being so I'm a little bit biased.

Like when he carves his own "epitaph" and it says, "To Be Continued..." That was great. So yeah, I think there are a lot of great writers who do great work but require oversight. Morrison and Waid both count. Love Waid's Flash, just LOVE it. More tepid about his Superman.

We do agree an awful lot. If you were in my town, I'd buy you a round and we could totally shoot the $hit on comics.

[Leo656]

I'd dig that.

If you wanna hear me shoot the sh*t on rasslin' in the meantime, check out Coola's newest Diving Cutter Podcast! I might do a pop-in to talk about comics and/or toys in the future, so that might be the next best thing to actually getting together.

I can talk with you because even though we don't always agree it's always civil and that's awesome.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'd dig that.

If you wanna hear me shoot the sh*t on rasslin' in the meantime, check out Coola's newest Diving Cutter Podcast! I might do a pop-in to talk about comics and/or toys in the future, so that might be the next best thing to actually getting together.

I can talk with you because even though we don't always agree it's always civil and that's awesome.

Just remember In Denny we Trust and Didio is the worst comic executive to ever breathe.


We would make a pretty good stable. How about The Bronze?Okay, maybe not.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Ehhhh I don't think I'd go THAT far. Then again, I don't keep up like I used to.

Grant's stuff is an acquired taste. I like that he thinks "big", but he has a terrible time in putting his own LSD-soaked ideas out there in ways that make sense to casual readers and people who are less-inclined to read Continuity Porn.

Big fan, generally speaking, but Grant's one of those writers that whenever people say they don't like him, I completely get their reasoning even though I don't agree with it.

I haven't read any Batman since "Flashpoint", myself, but at first I seriously did not like his "Black Glove"/"R.I.P" run... then I re-read it in one long shot and found it absolutely brilliant. But as it was coming out, I thought the guy had lost his mind and that the stories were awful. And reading them monthly, it WAS a chore... but that's kind of how a lot of his work is.

"Final Crisis", same thing - although some of that had a ton to do with DC not telling everyone they HAD to read "Superman Beyond" for the main mini to make sense - week-by-week, it's a confusing, over-cooked, masturbatory mess. But if you take two hours and read the entire thing in bulk, it's... kinda SOME of that, still, but you can recognize the poetry in what he was trying to do. I think it's brilliant, but there's no middle ground at all on it, it's either Awesome of Garbage to most people.

So yeah, I'unno. I generally love Grant's stuff BUT I also don't think he's half as clever as he thinks he is. So when people say they can't stand him, I sigh, but I understand.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't really argue anything for "best of" in reality, but it's certainly my favorite modern run in comics.
It definitely took some time for me to appreciate fully as well.

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

How "modern" are we talking here? And be careful, you're talking to a 34 year old fogey that has little respect in DC (or Marvel) for much past the year 1991.

Of course it's completely subjective BUT...
I think if we're talking "greatest" in modern it has to go to someone who knows Batman on a very personal level. Paul Dini grew up with Batman and got inside his head. And to top it off, his stories were mostly done-in-one detective yarns, the way Alan Grant and Normie Breyfogle (RIP) used to do. Dini became Bruce when he wrote him.

Morrison just read through a bunch of history and checked off all of the "WTF" boxes. Zebra Batman? Check. Zur-in-Ar? Check! Oh wait, Batman had a kid with Talia? Check! His run was like an yellow LSD-induced fever dream that proved that the Silver Age should rarely be touched in Batman history. And I don't think he wrote any done-in-one detective yarns in his entire run?
He's not the worst Batman writer ever? That probably goes to Robert Kaniger in the 50's BUT he's not the best.

Yeah, I'm talking out my ass when I say anything is "the best", but fair of you to ask.

I personally enjoyed the way Morrison incorporated so much of Batman's history into his run. Ambitious, mind-bending, complex tapestries are somewhat what Grant is known for, but that's not my favorite thing about his Batman run or his comics in general. I mean, that's part of it, but it sort of overshadows just how good Grant is at the other stuff. Grant's books are always filled with stunning emotional beats and kick-ass "fist-pumping" moments. The Batman run is full of these.

[Leo656]

Every time I get a stable the company runs out of money and shuts down. I'm bad luck, apparently.