Pro Wrestling Discussion

[Leo656]

I mean, jumping to TNA was arguably the best thing he ever did for his career. But he's definitely lost some shine since then, on account of jumping back to WWE and them proceeding to do nothing with him forever.

[ZariusTwo]

Johhny Ace reinstated as head of talent relations at WWE

https://www.f4wonline.com/wwe-news/j...artment-335431

[Prowler]

Middle aged Christian and Paul Wight in AEW still seems odd. Especially Wight since he's been a WWE guy for 20 years already and always had one of the best contracts in the company. Did AEW double the offer or something?

Both men are past their prime. Especially Wight. The last time The Big Show was interesting in WWE was in... that time he was WWECW champion for a bit in 2006? And that was nearly 15 years ago already. Big Show has mostly been a midcarder throughout his WWE tenure. He had a few short world title reigns but that's it. He's mostly been the big guy who turns 4 times a year and loses as much as he wins. Who hasn't he lost to?! Hard to get very invested in him when he's close to retirement now.

As for Christian, he was pretty hot in 2005-2006, but in 2010-2011 he wasn't that interesting anymore. Maybe WWE is to blame for that.

Apparently Christian did well at the Royal Rumble earlier this year. But I'm not sure if that necessarily means he'll add much to AEW. Maybe as a veteran wrestler to get some current gen talent over for a while? Although, is it even anything special to beat Christian?

[Leo656]

It's far too late for either of them to ever be truly relevant again, but they deserve the opportunity to leave the proverbial "nest" and make their bones elsewhere. Especially since WWE hadn't used them properly in ages anyway.

I confess, I never saw Christian as anything more than an upper-midcard guy; he's a perfect Intercontinental or other secondary Champion but he never would have been a World Champion of any promotion before the idea of being one got turned into a "Lifetime Achievement Award" sometime around 2005 (I think JBL getting it was when it finally hit "Everybody who sticks around long enough gets a turn with the belt" levels, officially). Nothing against the guy, he's "fine", but he's not a Top Guy. More than anything, if he wants to wrestle and Vince wasn't gonna use him, then it's good that he goes somewhere else. He shouldn't have to "retire" just because "Creative Has Nothing For You".

Big Show/Paul Wight is a bit of a different case, other than he too deserves to work so long as he wants to work and if Vince isn't gonna use him then he should be allowed to work elsewhere. The thing is, he SHOULD have been a much bigger deal in his career than what he was, and as much as it sucks to say out loud, other than the money he made going to the WWF/WWE was a huge mistake for his career. One of the few things WCW did right in the late-90s was in presenting The Giant as an unstoppable "Final Boss" type of monster; whether he was face or heel, he was unstoppable and only lost by extreme bullsh*t shenanigans, and the entire roster always acted like they were gonna have a heart attack whenever he came out to face one of them. He almost never got knocked off his feet and everyone was afraid of him. That's how you book a monster.

Then he went to the WWF and immediately, his entire "gimmick" became "This guy's a big f*cking dummy who switches teams with the wind", and his whole career was pretty much shot from Day One. Nobody was ever afraid of him, he lost constantly (it's like he only WON via bullsh*t shenanigans, the opposite of his WCW run) and took tons of bumps in every match, even from guys like Mysterio who he never should have been jobbing to (or even bumping for). It was a f*cking joke. They took a once-in-a-lifetime prospect and booked him like Just Another Guy. That was horrible.

I always felt bad for him because he really should have had a much better career. He made money but he's been a joke for way longer than he was relevant, and absolutely none of that was HIS fault. I don't know how much of that was Vince wanting to "protect Andre's legacy", or how much of it was him just wanting to keep his thumb on Wight for being a Hulk Hogan creation; I've heard either explanation. But even though it's far too late for him to make a whole new legacy for himself, I'm glad that he left - I'm selfishly glad when ANYONE leaves WWE - and I'm happy that he's getting a chance to work for someone other than Vince, especially since Vince apparently never saw anything in him anyway.

[Prowler]

I agree. Smarks love Christian, but I've always preferred Edge. Okay, Christian might be slightly better in the ring than Edge, since Edge relies on gimmick matches too much. How many great "normal" matches are there even?

I can understand WWE pushing Edge stronger than Christian too. Edge is taller and always came across as someone who can cut serious promos while Christian has always been a bit goofier. So Edge was more marketable, I suppose.

Big Show needed to have a better career. I'm his physical prime he was rather agile for such a massive dude. WWE should have exploited that a little better. But, as you said, they never handled him properly even if they paid him good money.

Yes, WWE had been the only big leagues for about 2 decades, but now there's a young major fed around it's nice we can see well established names of the business presented differently than they are in WWE, even if they're no longer that young anymore.

[Autbot_Benz]

at least in AEW Wight won't be going from heel to face to heel every 5 minutes and also we wont' see him crying like wwe had him do a lot.

Christian is great when WWE isn't stinking him up. his TNA run was fantastic and I hope his AEW run is too.

[Leo656]

I was never a huge Edge guy either. He's perfectly fine but again, in a different era he never would have been a Top Guy.

I also have issues with otherwise-good wrestlers who have sh*t finishers or finishers that otherwise make no sense. What the f*ck sense does it make for a scrawny guy to use a f*cking SPEAR as his finish? And before that it was like he was trying to invent a new finisher every week for most of 2001-2003 and most of those were pretty crap, too. "How many moves can we stick the word 'Edge' onto to try and be clever?" "Edge-cution", "Edge-a-cator", whatever the hell else... just blech. And most of them were stupid moves, anyway, like that inside-out Sharpshooter, or that jumping DDT that he'd sometimes turn into a sit-out facebuster; all of that stuff looked awful. Your finish is like 90% of your character, and he never had a good finish except for the very beginning.

He HAD a good finish originally with the Flatliner (I forget what he called it), but supposedly Vince made him sh*tcan it. Something about "I can't tell who's giving it and who's taking it", or "Moves that leave the guy doing it lying on their back are no good", or whatever dumb rule that Vince comes up with on a Monday and forgets about by Thursday. But that was Edge's only GOOD finisher, and after that he got better as a wrestler but always had a lame finish, which made it hard for me to ever take him all that seriously.

[Prowler]

Edge has always been a better character than a better wrestler. Especially in 2004-2007 when he came back from his year long neck injury and eventually replaced Triple H as the top heel of the company. Kinda funny how being the reason Lita cheated in Matt Hardy was what helped him become a main eventer...

As for JBL, well Smackdown had a brutal roster at the time with Lesnar leaving, Big Show being out for a while, Kurt Angle injured and Triple H not wanting to work Tuesdays. And Eddie for some reason thought he wasn't doing well as a champion and thus handpicked Bradshaw to get the WWE title from him.

It was a very solid reinvention of the character but it happened way too fast. Brsdshwa went fron jobbing to Too Cool and wrestling on Velocity to getting a title shot for the WWE Championship in like 5 weeks?

But honestly, JBL's year long reign felt more like an exception to the rule. After that you didn't have the belt being awarded to questionable choices for a while.

I'd say the world titles truly only began losing prestige around 2009 when Sheamus won the WWE championship 2 months after his debut and Jack Swagger won the WHC in early 2010. That's when the world championships became props used to elevate talent instead of being awards to PROVEN STARS. And since then it feels like everyone has held a world championship in WWE. Including Jinder ****ing Mahal.

At this point ANYONE can win a world title in WWE. I no longer care who's WWE champion. That's how much prestige that belt has left today.

[Autbot_Benz]

[Leo656]

Are they still signing people to never actually end up using them?

[ZariusTwo]

Big Show's hottest run was when he was in the nerfed ECW. It wasn't easy to carry a brand everyone, including fans and Heyman himself, had written off but he was booked strongly...although if Heyman had his way, he would have tapped to CM Punk, so yeah there would have still been problems with that as the pay off.

Edge is a great character heel, but a terrible babyface, and I've always viewed his stints chasing Smackdown titles a demotion. He's well more suited to RAW.

[Leo656]

"Big Show", maybe, but I'd still argue that Paul Wight's overall "best run" was from '96 through '98, specifically those few months in Spring/Summer of '96 when he was World Champion.

He wasn't the best worker, yet, but he didn't have to be. And he had a genuine "WHO the hell is ever gonna beat this guy?!" type of mystique (before the inevitable answer became "Hogan, obviously" ). And he pretty much never, ever, ever lost totally clean for most of that entire run.

Whereas no matter how strong he was booked in WWECW years later, the old adage Warrior once used on Hogan was still applicable to Big Show: "Beating you means nothing anymore; everyone already has." Hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube and recreate a "monster" who's already jobbed to every single guy on the roster a dozen times over.

It was a valiant and noble attempt. Far too little, and far too late, though. This guy should have had MAYBE five clean L's in his entire career. For whatever reason, Vince didn't think he "deserved" to be protected or booked like a proper "giant" and that's pretty unforgivable once you realize that he truly could have been on Andre's level as far as mystique.

A very, very rare case of WCW using a talent to MUCH greater effect than the WWF ever did. DDP's another one, but that's a novel.

[TMNTFanatic4Life]

Leo: thoughts on Lashley being the current WWE Champion?

And your thoughts on Brock Lesnar.

[Leo656]

I don't have a ton of thoughts on either, really.

Lashley's fine. I'm surprised it took them this long to put the belt on him, but I guess the obligatory "You left to go elsewhere once upon a time" punishment period is over with. There's no way a guy with that look wasn't going to get it at some point, I'm just a little surprised it took this long.

He's fine. I just have never had any strong opinions on him either way.

My feelings on Brock are a bit more complicated. I'm not and have never been a "fan" of his. And I often question the investment WWE has made in him over the last decade, because by all accounts he hasn't ever moved the needle much in terms of ratings or attendance. The IDEA is that he's a "crossover star" who can entice some UFC fans to watch wrestling, just like the idea was with Rousey, but that's a very fundamentally flawed idea. Reason being is because while some wrestling fans watch UFC, UFC fans don't watch wrestling and never will. If you ask them, they'll tell you; UFC fans think that wrestling is the absolute dumbest thing in the world, and to them Lesnar and Rousey are circus clowns who sold out because they can't fight for real anymore. They would rather stab out their own eyes than ever watch pro wrestling, whether there's a "UFC star" on there or not.

So I get the reasoning for him being around, but it doesn't work and hasn't worked. So I question the investment and how much clout he has to call his own shots. I'd argue that he's honestly not all that valuable.

On the other hand, wrestling needs "mainstream stars" and Lesnar (and Cena) are the last of a dying breed in that regard. And they really will probably be the last, as by all accounts Vince never again wants anyone to become "bigger than WWE" and so he's not going to put the work into building anyone up to that level ever again. So there's something of value there but it still hasn't paid massive dividends. They've pushed him so hard as a big deal for so long and yet nobody really seemed to ever care all that much. He adds "legitimacy", but that's never really paid off in dollars and cents (for anyone but him, that is).

I guess he must sell a lot of T-shirts, that's really all I can figure.

[Autbot_Benz]

Eric Bischoff is the second inductee for the WWE HOF 2021

[ZariusTwo]

It's better than never!

[Leo656]

Excellent.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't have a ton of thoughts on either, really.

Lashley's fine. I'm surprised it took them this long to put the belt on him, but I guess the obligatory "You left to go elsewhere once upon a time" punishment period is over with. There's no way a guy with that look wasn't going to get it at some point, I'm just a little surprised it took this long.

He's fine. I just have never had any strong opinions on him either way.

My feelings on Brock are a bit more complicated. I'm not and have never been a "fan" of his. And I often question the investment WWE has made in him over the last decade, because by all accounts he hasn't ever moved the needle much in terms of ratings or attendance. The IDEA is that he's a "crossover star" who can entice some UFC fans to watch wrestling, just like the idea was with Rousey, but that's a very fundamentally flawed idea. Reason being is because while some wrestling fans watch UFC, UFC fans don't watch wrestling and never will. If you ask them, they'll tell you; UFC fans think that wrestling is the absolute dumbest thing in the world, and to them Lesnar and Rousey are circus clowns who sold out because they can't fight for real anymore. They would rather stab out their own eyes than ever watch pro wrestling, whether there's a "UFC star" on there or not.

So I get the reasoning for him being around, but it doesn't work and hasn't worked. So I question the investment and how much clout he has to call his own shots. I'd argue that he's honestly not all that valuable.

On the other hand, wrestling needs "mainstream stars" and Lesnar (and Cena) are the last of a dying breed in that regard. And they really will probably be the last, as by all accounts Vince never again wants anyone to become "bigger than WWE" and so he's not going to put the work into building anyone up to that level ever again. So there's something of value there but it still hasn't paid massive dividends. They've pushed him so hard as a big deal for so long and yet nobody really seemed to ever care all that much. He adds "legitimacy", but that's never really paid off in dollars and cents (for anyone but him, that is).

I guess he must sell a lot of T-shirts, that's really all I can figure.

Lashley was getting pushed strongly in his first stint with the company. He only left it all of a sudden in late 2007 because his then gf, Kristall Marshall, got in a fight with Michael Hayes and she decided to leave the company. Lashley followed suit. Otherwise he'd have eventually become WWE champion sooner of later.

Lashley was pretty green at the time though. He has improved since then.

Lesnar... I'm one of the few people left on Earth who still is a fan of the guy somewhat. He has gotten lazy and stale, but I'll still pop for Lesnar more than for 99% of the current roster. When he came back at MITB in 2019 and won the briefcase I legitimately marked out. Lesnar just has that aura of credibility around him. He's massive and super strong. Plus was a UFC World Champion at some point as well. Even if his career didn't really turn out to be that impressive since it takes more than brute strength to be a good fighter, that still helps. Lesnar made a lot of money for UFC in its prime. He's arguably UFC's biggest draw ever. Or was at some point. Maybe Connor McGregor surpassed him since then, Idk.

Lesnar never was much of a needle mover for WWE, though. You're right. In his first stint, he got the strongest push ever and by the time he left the company 2 later he was already a 3 time champion, a KOTR winner and a Royal Rumble winner. But WWE were in their biggest slump ever since the pre-AE days and Brock clearly wasn't changing things. He was mostly comfortable as a heel. His face turn flopped. And he didn't have very good mic skills.

I do think, however, that Lesnar did pretty well for an unknown guy who got a Goldberg like push when he was only 24 years old or something. Lesnar was like Goldberg but with much better technical skills. Which makes sense, considering he was once an amateur wrestler. A big and super strong guy being able to chain wrestle with Kurt Angle was pretty impressive for its time. Lesnar might not have improved business back then, but the audience didn't seem to reject him either. They could tell he was credible. He didn't seem out of place in his spot due to that. We're talking about a guy who went over the likes of fan favourites like the Hardyz, Hulk Hogan and The Rock in the span of like 6 months. And then he beat Undertaker a few times in a feud they had.

It was risky and could have gone REALLY bad, but it didn't.

As for his return, well they made him lose to Cena and Triple H for some reason which kinda made the hype of his return die out rather quickly. Two year later he was facing Undertaker at Wrestlemania and most people didn't think Taker was losing it. There wasn't a lot of interest of fans for that match iirc. At that point people believed Taker would retire undefeated. Plus, Brock hadn't been booked to well since his return either.

Then Brock beat Taker and he got booked strongly for a while.

Contrary to what most fans think, I honestly liked Lesnar not being around EVERY single week. People complained he was holding the belt hostage, but I liked how he wasn't being overexposed like most modern champions are. Plus, Lesnar was a WAY more credible champion than the likes of Kofi Kingston will ever be, let's face it.

[Leo656]

Lesnar definitely adds "credibility" with his presence - the same thing people loved about Goldberg before him - but one has to wonder just how much that counts for in an era where every single man, woman, child and pet goldfish on planet Earth knows that wrestling is fake.

I mean, I'm a fan of "credibility"; I've always had the unpopular opinions that certain guys like Bryan and Kingston probably shouldn't have been World Champion, because they're just not believable in that role. But a lot of people counter that with "Well it's all fake anyway, and they're popular, so let them have it." And I do get that. I don't agree with it, but I hear them. Maybe part of it is sour grapes because as a "smaller guy" myself, I don't get to win much because "It's not believable"; yet guys my size or only slightly bigger (or smaller!) get to have wins over guys like Brock Lesnar or whoever. Like, why is it different at THAT level? Why can't I get a win in front of 100 people, because it's "not believable", but guys like Bryan can get wins over guys like Sheamus in front of 80,000 people and that's okay because "It's all fake, anyway"? There's no consistency whatsoever as far as how much "credibility" or "realism" matters in wrestling.

It only seems to matter insofar as, "As long as the guy I like gets to win, otherwise it doesn't matter." If a person likes Brock Lesnar, him being unstoppable is fine because it's "believable"; if they hate him, then it's stupid because "It's all fake anyway, let other people win!" If Kofi is World Champion, if you like Kofi then "It's fine, even though he has a chest that literally was put on his body backwards; he's entertaining and the kids like him, plus it's fake, so YAY!"

I never cared much about Brock taking long gaps between defenses, but mostly because Hogan used to do the same thing so I'd be a hypocrite to call Brock on it. Plus it gave the rest of the roster something to do in the meantime.

I don't know. I'm just pretty agnostic on Brock. I don't hate him like some do, but he never excited me much, either. It does kinda bother me how someone who's so openly disdainful of the wrestling business can make so much money just because he's built like a gorilla. I don't just mean pursuing other interests, everybody does that and that's fine. I mean the fact that he so clearly does not wanna be there, but he gets paid more money than anyone to do comparatively very little work to everyone else, and the entire company gets booked around his whims. That seems pretty unfair. I definitely get why some people hate him so much. I don't exactly feel the same way but I absolutely understand where it comes from.

[ZariusTwo]

Main event for Smackdown at 'Mania is going to be Bryan vs Edge vs Reigns