Alan Moore's Watchmen Possibly Heading for HBO

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

The big news is that this is apparently a straight-up sequel. They keep saying "to the graphic novel" and not the Snyder movie, but that doesn't really matter.

Which means it might be using elements of Doomsday Clock or be a companion piece to it exploring what leads up to Ozy fleeing to the DC Universe.

[AquaParade]

I think it looks awesome.

[Andrew NDB]

"We asked what’s the thing that’s causing a tremendous amount of anxiety in America today? The only authentic answer was race."

The question is, why are those racists wearing Rorschach's mask? "I don’t wanna editorialise on whether or not Rorschach was a white supremacist. I don’t think he was, but he certainly had what would now be considered some alt-right views," Lindelof says. "We wanted to explore that."

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/hb...s-race-a170819

Yeah, this is going to be an "important" show alright.

[Andrew NDB]

Yep.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/enter...5qm-story.html

[AquaParade]

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/watchmen/s01

Show is getting great reception.

I want to watch it badly, but can’t justify $15 a month for one television show. Or can I?

Thinking I will wait for home-release, but we will see if critical praise and temptation sways me in the meantime.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Show is getting great reception.

Only with critics. It's been revealed to be a 100% woke-fest.

Here's a few reviews:

This show is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Has nothing to do with Marvel or DC comics. Rather it's a show which attempts to further a flawed political liberal narrative about who the good and bad guys are in today's society. I was shocked and angered. Such wasted potential. Oh well.

Another one:

I was initially entranced. I immediately searched the net for Tulsa 1921, and was shocked to find out the depiction of events in this episode were strikingly realistic. It's a shame that the show then descends into cliche. Race-baiting is at best boring, and irresponsible to say the least. I almost stopped watching multiple times, but hung on hoping they were going somewhere interesting. The "climactic" final scene was unfortunately totally predictable. The target audience of this show is obviously a narrow demographic and it grotesquely stereotypes other demographics. Oh, and it doesn't appear to have any real relation to Watchmen.

Another one:

Hard to find anything to to like. More like 'Woke'men than Watchmen. I'm sure most reviewers loved it for just that reason. If you enjoy reliving horrible events from the past and imagining what it would be like if things hadn't changed in the US since 1921, then you'll probably love it too.

Another one:

All of the good things about this show is just towing the Watchmen line... which is fine, it's called "Watchmen" after all. It's the ham fisted way that Lindelof puts his spin on everything that is just terrible. There is two things going very wrong for this show: First: The ham fisted way Lindelof is curating the entire show to be about social justice isn't even cringy anymore, it's just par for course these days. Lines like "I know white supremacy, and I smell bleach!" litter the show, as if to tell the critics, 'See, I'm woke! I'm woke too!' But this cycle is all so played out at this point. How many critics from every corner of the media will call this show "brave" or "innovative" or "necessary"? The only problem is, when you're doing something to thundering applause from basically the entirety of the access media, it's no longer "brave", it's status quo. And when that same access media hails every ham fisted attempt of talking about American culture and social justice in TV or Film as innovative, it's no longer "innovative," it's just a recycled formula placating to the mostly of-one-mind critics. The second thing (which speaks to an industry wide problem): The lazy way they depict a female superhero. Regina King is a 5'3 48 year old, which probably puts her at 110 pounds soaking wet. And besides face paint and a hood, she has no discernible super powers, which means, we're led to believe that a 48 year old who weighs 110 pounds is just going to regularly out brawl a bunch of men on a daily basis. What made characters like Ripley (in the Alien trilogy) and Beatrix Kiddo (Uma Thurman of Kill Bill) great super-powerless heroes is that they didn't just roam around beating people up as if they were 6'5 265 pounds of pure muscle. Ripley used a combination of calm-headed courage and resourcefulness to claim victory. Beatrix Kiddo was a literal trained assassin, and used her superior skill with a Katana, and again, her resourcefulness, to smite her foes. Regina's character? What helps her overcome the fact she's 5'3 110? She wasn't particularly good with a gun. Her tactics of using the cows as cover as opposed to the forest means she's not particularly smart. Instead of moving Horizontally to flank the mounted .50 cal (which would have laughably carved through all of them), also just shows a lack of any sort of tactical awareness. Then once in the trailer, she didn't use any actual martial arts to beat up someone who probably had 70 pounds on her. It was just a basic choreographed fight scene that hurt the credibility of the show... In short, Lindelof (like mostly everyone in the industry) wants all the credit for casting a woman in a superhero-esque role, without doing any of the hard work to earn it. Look, I think it's awesome that a 48 year old black woman is getting to star in a tough and gritty show on HBO. I'm glad these opportunities exist now, I really am. But if you're going to do that, then you have to put in extra work to make on the writing/directing end to make sure the audience buys into the character; none of such work was done.

Another one:

This series was so bad that through years of reading reviews I have never been compelled to write one literally until this show. I was really expecting something nice and controversial like the watchmen which was a dark parody about superheroes in a nixon-esq era, this is just awful and I don't know any 10 year old anywhere who would bully an adult with "did you pay for it with reparations?" and even so it was forced in the acting there.

Another one:

Huge let down. I wanted to be entertained and I don't find virtue signaling to be very entertaining.

Another one:

Watchman (2019) suffers from the same proverbial, patronizing white guilt (found in the likes of Wu Assassins) that's meant to sate the sadomasochistic white man's desire for bondaged self-flagellation at the hands of an oppressed PoC. It's a newfangled strain of white guilt that says, "look at how evil we are, and please hate us righteously", while ironically giving your pennies to the selfsame white men and women who created their "passion play". I say passion play purposely because these so-called woke "works of art" are merely on-screen representations of the life, trial, and death of white guilt. White writers, producers, and CEOs want PoC to believe the oligarchs of capitalism are on their side! (Please give us your money!). So, these woke content creators are figuratively killing whiteness (I.e., themselves) as a means of sacrifice for the greater good of the oppressed (I.e., PoC). Just like Jesus was sacrificed for all of man's sins, this new "wokeness" is just another means for white people to play saviors through a Christ allegory. But does this make for good TV? No. Damon Lindelof is not Jordan Peele. Moreover, the metaphor does not work. PoC are the cops, instead of being oppressed by the system (I.e., police)? Then why are black cops not permitted to have full access to their guns? Is Watchmen implying that white supremacists are the oppressed? Watchmen demonizes uneducated whites, so that can't be true, can it? Why the confusing metaphor? Is it because white people profit from the system and can't burn it down completely? So, this is not a full-fledged white suicide, but just an attempt. It doesn't matter as long as you believe HBO are the good ones and you pay them. Finally, 1) this show has nothing to do with Watchmen, in themes or otherwise. It's actually insulting how Rorschach is treated, but white supremacists do have a proclivity for stealing things that don't belong to them and fashioning those things in their image. 2) the action was unconvincing. A cow wouldn't provide cover for the type of gunfire shown-the bullets were like 10 inches long... 3) what was the deal with squids? Was that a pretentious reference to Lovecraft's racism? 4) what's the point? In summary, this depiction will only appeal to white people who want to virtue signal.

[AquaParade]

Thanks for providing context and all.
I suppose that could be right, but after all the Joker "controversy", I feel more than ever, I'll have to decide for myself whether there is some type of political stance within the product that I disagree with.

I probably should have known better than to link RT in the first place. I think I'm almost at that personal breaking point of having zero faith in most popular movie critics. Look, I never went to them for justification or direction on what to like or not like, but I typically enjoy challenging my own ideas or seeing how a different perspective effects me, but at this point, I don't even want to count on them for that.

Maybe I sound biased (though I'm not), because I enjoyed Joker, but really, there was just something very stinky about many of the critical reviews for that film, which seemed politically and socially driven.

And seriously, is an HBO subscription of at least $15 a month (Amazon Prime option) the cheapest way to watch this show? I was hoping they would upload the episodes digitally and I could just buy them for a few bucks each as they come out. Maybe HBO doesn't do that.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Thanks for providing context and all.
I suppose that could be right, but after all the Joker "controversy", I feel more than ever, I'll have to decide for myself whether there is some type of political stance within the product that I disagree with.

This seems like 200% less subtle than Joker. It wears its SJW badge proudly and loudly.

[AquaParade]

I'm intrigued enough to find out for myself. I just feel many critics are now getting too caught up in the political messages they're receiving from a show, and forgetting everything else. Chances are I drop out by episode 3, and it has nothing to do with politics.

Seriously, I just can't get into any television shows, despite being obsessed with movies. I'm not really sure why. I could watch The Simpsons or The Office all day if I had time, but I can rarely get through anything else, even if I am initially intrigued and/or hyped. Daredevil was the last show I got through, but even that was pretty difficult for me.

Stranger Things, Breaking Bad, Doom Patrol, Umbrella Academy, Black Mirror, Parks & Rec. Tried them all and just can't do it.

Maybe by some miracle, Watchmen will break the curse.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It wears its SJW badge proudly and loudly.

Social Justice in a superhero media? GASP! and SHOCK!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I'm intrigued enough to find out for myself. I just feel many critics are now getting too caught up in the political messages they're receiving from a show, and forgetting everything else. Chances are I drop out by episode 3, and it has nothing to do with politics.

Seriously, I just can't get into any television shows, despite being obsessed with movies. I'm not really sure why. I could watch The Simpsons or The Office all day if I had time, but I can rarely get through anything else, even if I am initially intrigued and/or hyped. Daredevil was the last show I got through, but even that was pretty difficult for me.

Stranger Things, Breaking Bad, Doom Patrol, Umbrella Academy, Black Mirror, Parks & Rec. Tried them all and just can't do it.

Maybe by some miracle, Watchmen will break the curse.

You bailed... on Breaking Bad? Damn, man. No point in me recommending Peaky Blinders or Sons of Anarchy then, is there...

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

You bailed... on Breaking Bad? Damn, man. No point in me recommending Peaky Blinders or Sons of Anarchy then, is there...

Oh yeah, I tried the beginning of Sons of Anarchy as well. Couldn't do that either. Peaky Blinders is supposed to be a psychological thriller, is that right? Intrigued, if so.
Regarding Breaking Bad, I should amend that - I was actually deep in on it for like four seasons. Dropped out at a crucial moment and lost interest by the time I tried to jump back in. I think having someone to watch it with made it more enjoyable. I can appreciate how thrilling that show is.

If I didn't know better, I'd chalk it up to me having a low attention span and bailing before things get interesting, but the reason I don't think it's that is because, again, with movies, I don't mind a slow-burn at all. Some of my favorite films are 2001: A Space Odyssey, Arrival, Alien, Joker - not exactly fast-paced films.

I think it has something to do with the deliberate pacing of serialized television.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Social Justice in a superhero media? GASP! and SHOCK!

There was once a time when super-hero fiction existed for more than just to tell everyone how straight, white men are The Devil.

Now that's just about ALL it's there for.

As for Watchmen, I adore the book and this looked like absolute sh*t to me from the jump. I'm just reading about the "agenda" stuff now, I just thought it looked like junk.

[joe-eyeball]

The first episode pretty much sucked. In no way shape or form does it feel like a natural progression of Moore’s work. Watchmen in name only. But I kind of figured that going in, oh well.

[Leo656]

The problem with continuing or "revisiting" Watchmen is that not only is it a singular piece of work, but that it tries to enforce a very specific point and relies on specific ideas and themes in order to do so. And those things that make it what it is do NOT lend themselves at all to any kind of continuation of the narrative.

More or less...

- Human nature is implicitly sh*tty
- There are no "Good People", simply Bad People and "Well-meaning, slightly less-bad people", and the latter are just as dangerous as the former from a different direction.
- Altruism is a myth; people generally only do good things out of guilt, obligation, or because they've been manipulated, but self-interest is always the root
- The world is far beyond saving
- Anyone who is seriously interested in "saving the world" is either an idiot or a lunatic
- Anyone who would attempt to do so while wearing fancy dress and masks is at least as crazy as the "bad guys" are

For something to actually BE "Watchmen" beyond just the name, it has to reinforce those messages. And at best, all anyone could do is repeat what the original book (and the film) already made clear. But you CAN'T try and change the message or the theme, that's blasphemous.

I've seen a few positive reviews which point out how the show tries to "inject hope and optimism into the Watchmen universe." That right there explains how they've COMPLETELY missed the point. Watchmen is a cynical, nihilistic, deconstructionist story by its very design. The only "hope" the story offers is based on a gigantic lie, and even then it seems assured that one slight tug of a loose thread will inevitably cause the false "peace" to unravel (as Doomsday Clock does well in pointing out). The only happiness the characters get is in abandoning their "mission" in order to live as regular people and to hell with "saving the world". It's even strongly implied that it was always more about getting kicks and/or revenge than anything pure, for most of them. Only Rorschach had any purely altruistic motives and strong convictions, and he's clearly portrayed as a lunatic. Everyone else was just bored.

This is why it's not something easily messed with. It's not a regular old piece of super-hero fiction. It's ABOUT something. It has a POINT, and a good one. You can't simply borrow the title and then tell a generic comic book story that goes entirely against the f*cking point of the work. Especially not to try and be "hopeful and optimistic".

Of all the cynical, "in name only" cash-grab bullsh*t, I think this one offends me the most.

[Andrew NDB]

Lindelof talks "Watchmen":

http://www.darkhorizons.com/lindelof...n-1x07-reveal/

“In our Watchmen, there are more clear cut bad guys who represent an ideology that is almost impossible to defeat. Bad guys always want the same thing: power. There’s something fundamentally ridiculous about the idea of “white power” in its redundancy as if everyone in America was born onto the same playing field.”

I actually sat down and watched the second episode last night. Yeesh. There's a semi-interesting recreation of Dr. Manhattan becoming Dr. Manhattan, but the rest of the episode is a great big white guilt/"racism bad!" (we know) thing as before.

[AquaParade]

I may finally order a subscription and sit down with this tonight. Very curious about this show.

On a semi-related note, when I look at the fact that there are seven, hour long episodes of "Watchmen" already, it sort of blows my mind. Just the wealth of video content that comic book fans are getting these days still blows my mind.

Sure, it doesn't have quite the same production values or tied-in excitement that comes with a blockbuster film, but it's another case of "if you told me 10-15 years ago that..." I'd have 7 hours of "Watchmen" just waiting for me, I'd have dropped everything and called in to work, sick.
I'm so spoiled at this point though, that I'm just sort of numb to it. The mixed reception doesn't have much to do with it, because I find that divisive shows like this have to be seen to be analyzed before being judged. So, yeah, I'm excited, but I'm always fascinated by how much content of interest to me keeps releasing and how it has informed my excitement levels. The fact that there is a full season of Doom Patrol based on Grant Morrison's work that I haven't taken the time to watch all of blows my mind. Although maybe it just speaks to my preference for the books.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

it's another case of "if you told me 10-15 years ago that..." I'd have 7 hours of "Watchmen" just waiting for me

I've watched two hours of this show so far and can honestly say that after doing so, I really watched 0 hours of actual "Watchmen" content and 2 hours of virtue signaling.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I've watched two hours of this show so far and can honestly say that after doing so, I really watched 0 hours of actual "Watchmen" content and 2 hours of virtue signaling.

That sounds terrible, but I find that perspectives on political angles in entertainment can vary wildly. See: Joker.
I'll probably come back and share my thoughts in the next few days. All due respect though, if you watched two episodes and came to that conclusion. I may feel the same way.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

That sounds terrible, but I find that perspectives on political angles in entertainment can vary wildly. See: Joker.
I'll probably come back and share my thoughts in the next few days. All due respect though, if you watched two episodes and came to that conclusion. I may feel the same way.

I'm curious to see what you think.