What Story was better [Archive] - The Technodrome Forums

R-iZZy

11-02-2002, 10:36 AM

geez... who likes that 'ol archi(cartoon) origin. a human fell in ooze and turned into a rat. booooooriiiiing.

the mirage origin is a whole lot more explanative (if that's a word). a mutant rat that was originally a normal rat. makes sense to me.

i mean, if a human turned into a rat from the archie series, then why didn't the baby turtles turn into something different as well?

it all makes sense to me. rat stays rat, and turtles stay turtles, only in enlargened size.

heretic888

11-02-2002, 10:45 AM

in the archie/cartoon series, the mutagen was an alien mutagenic agent that Krang supplied from Dimension X which would cause any living creature to 'take the form of' whatever last living creature they touched. Yoshi last touched a rat, so he became rat-like. The turtles last touched Yoshi, so they became human-like. Makes you wonder what would happen if a human last touched a human and got exposed to the mutagen...... regardless, its a pretty stupid idea that doesnt even have a remote basis in believability.

in the mirage/movie series, the mutagen is an alien mutagenic agent that was a chemical by-product of the Ultroms' attempts to adapt Earth technology to their uses. in effect, it acts like an 'evolutionary stimulant' and greatly enhances the evolutionary process within a creature by several million years. thus, both the turtles and splinter adopted more human-like intelligence and anatomy.

although still pretty far-out, the mirage story is 100 times more believable than the archie one. i mean, a substance that makes you 'take on the form of' whatever animal you last touched??? there isnt even a plausible scientific basis for that........

R-iZZy

11-02-2002, 11:05 AM

:tlol: :lol: so we all agree that mirage's origin of splinter was a whooooole lot better? well, not all of us, but the majority of us.

heretic888

11-02-2002, 11:14 AM

yeah, i suppose so.

Greed

11-02-2002, 11:24 AM

The Archie story is lame

heretic888

11-02-2002, 11:27 AM

well, i wouldnt say that.....

Greed

11-02-2002, 11:30 AM

its logic was all wrong
it skiped alot of details

heretic888

11-02-2002, 11:35 AM

maybe..... but it got REALLY good in the later issues......

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 12:09 PM

Actually last Yoshi touched the Tutles...

speedracer

11-02-2002, 12:34 PM

although still pretty far-out, the mirage story is 100 times more believable than the archie one. i mean, a substance that makes you 'take on the form of' whatever animal you last touched??? there isnt even a plausible scientific basis for that........

There's also no plausible scientific basis for a pet rat being able to learn martial arts, either.

The implausibility of the above doesn't really matter to me, but imho the whole idea of a pet rat learning martial arts from his human master is lame, lame, lame. Maybe it was a good idea when TMNT was first conceived--as an outlandish parody of the old Marvel comics--but once TMNT gained respectability, it didn't fit very well with the Mirage origin story.

Plus, in the Archie/cartoon origin story, there's a direct link between Splinter and Shredder, making their enmity much more intense and personal.

heretic888

11-02-2002, 01:31 PM

The Palladium rpg implied that Splinter may have been a mutant of sorts before he ever was exposed to the mutagen. Although implausible, it is nothing compared to the Archie story of a mutagen that changes you into whatever you last touched and an alien warlord that was punished by having his body 'taken away' from him (???)......

besides the 'enmity' you spoke of is rarely, if ever, expressed in the cartoon or archie books. whereas splinter's dislike of saki in the mirage books is quite public. besides, saki murdered splinter's master. it doesnt get a lot more personal than that.

Kali

11-02-2002, 02:29 PM

Rat's are actually very intelligent creatures with an amazing ability to study and learn from their environment. So, Splinter observed Yoshi and absorbed the martial arts techniques. As a rat, he didn't have the physical or mental capabilities to put them to any use. His mind might not have even comprehended what he was seeing and learning. Like listening to people talking when you're young and not being able to understand or repeat.

But when exposed to the ooze, he evolved, and was able to understand and put to use all he'd learned from Yoshi.

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 02:35 PM

Intresting theory. But it was never ment to be realistic.

Anyone else tought the thing about cartoon, that Yoshi Touched turtles last time, not rats....

Kali

11-02-2002, 02:50 PM

Well, you can explain it if you try hard enough. See, the Turtles are easy to explain. But Yoshi. The explanation that keeps my brain from exploding is that you'll notice that Yoshi stepped in the ooze before picking up the turtles. Obviously, he'd been walking around with the rats before then, and the mutagen had started changing him, using the traces of DNA left of him by the rats, before he picked up the turtles.

*blinks* Hey, the turtles started re-mutating in the later eps, right? Why didn't Splinter?

Greed

11-02-2002, 03:02 PM

Actually Yoshi had pet rat that was on his shoulder when he touched the mutagen

Kali

11-02-2002, 03:05 PM

Well then, there you go. He had more rat DNA on him than Turtle.

In the Archie book I have, he's holding a rat covered in mutagen. I wonder what happened to him/her.

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 03:37 PM

I didnt remember seeing that...

Kali

11-02-2002, 03:45 PM

It's in the TMNTA Collected Book, Vol. 1. It includes issues 5-9, plus a prologue of Splinter telling of how he and the Turtles were created to April. There's a panel where he's holding up a mutagen-covered rat. Just one panel, not much, but it's got me thinking.

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 04:14 PM

Another question. When Bepop and Rocksteady mutated what happened to the animals? Why didnt they mutate?

Kali

11-02-2002, 04:26 PM

Well, I suppose they didn't get any mutagen on them. He had Bebop and Rocksteady touch the animals, then I suppose they got dragged off and disposed of while Shredder administered the mutagen to the punks.

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 04:31 PM

I remember the exact scene from the cartoon. Rocksteady and BEpop are tied up to Chairs, Shrdder has some sort of protective suit on, He opens the mutagen can and then the robots drag the animals in... Ofcourse what happens next isn't showed...

azure turtle

11-02-2002, 04:41 PM

Hmm... Personally, I liked the Mirage origin story better than the 'toon version. Just the idea of a pet rat learning ninjitsu from observing his master totally amazes me. I love it! :anime:

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 04:43 PM

Talking brains or Human cloning with worms dosent? It was never ment to be realistic.

azure turtle

11-02-2002, 04:46 PM

Huh?? I don't understand the question... :???:

Yeah, I liked the idea of Utroms and Shredder coming back from the dead via worms. I was just addressing the original topic about which origin story I liked better.

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 04:50 PM

Just the idea of a pet rat learning ninjitsu from observing his master totally amazes me. I love it! :anime:

You said it Amazes you. I just said it shouldnt, nothing about it is realistic...

Kali

11-02-2002, 04:52 PM

We never said it was realistic, which is why it's so amazing. If it was realistic then it wouldn't be as interesting. If I want realstic, I'll go read one of my scientific texts.

Karpo_007

11-02-2002, 04:56 PM

My poiny is that nothin in TMNT Amazes me. Everything that happens is real in it's universe. Usually i dont even think about how a rat could learn Ninjitsu etc.

speedracer

11-03-2002, 06:22 AM

Intresting theory. But it was never ment to be realistic.

Anyone else tought the thing about cartoon, that Yoshi Touched turtles last time, not rats....

No. He stepped into the puddle of mutagen before picking up the turtles, remember?

speedracer

11-03-2002, 06:27 AM

besides the 'enmity' you spoke of is rarely, if ever, expressed in the cartoon or archie books.

What???

Everytime Shredder and Splinter duel, you can hear about it. And there were two entire episodes that centered around the fact that Shredder usurped leadership of the Foot Clan from Splinter.

whereas splinter's dislike of saki in the mirage books is quite public. besides, saki murdered splinter's master. it doesnt get a lot more personal than that.

Well, I guess I just can't conceive of a rat having that kind of affinity for its owner.

speedracer

11-03-2002, 06:33 AM

My poiny is that nothin in TMNT Amazes me. Everything that happens is real in it's universe. Usually i dont even think about how a rat could learn Ninjitsu etc.

Well, my point is that the pet-rat-learning-ninjutsu plot crosses the line from "fantastic" to "ridiculous in a non-self-respecting way."

Reznorite420

11-03-2002, 06:57 AM

Geez...it's just a comic book...enjoy it for what it is and don't pick at the realism of it! You're starting to sound like my English II teacher...

Karpo_007

11-03-2002, 06:58 AM

That was my point...

heretic888

11-03-2002, 08:02 AM

the debate was about which story was 'better' and i am going to have to go with the mirage one. why? well, in the sense that it is more mature and less oriented to kids is a damn good reason. however, in addition, the mirage line does something the others dont: it expresses a mythologic archetype. The mirage story actually has metaphorical connotations, social commentaries, and underlying themes/lessons in it. The others do not.

in other words, the mirage line could theoretically be put into an novel or saga form.... the archie could not.

not to mention the mirage turtles would kick the living bejeezus out of the archie ones.

Sparvid

11-03-2002, 08:33 AM

not to mention the mirage turtles would kick the living bejeezus out of the archie ones.*sigh* Why didn't this (http://www.planetracers.com/blast/blast56.html) idea go anywhere..?

heretic888

11-03-2002, 08:52 AM

that was mostly a joke (although it's still true).

you apparently neglected to read the rest of my post.

Karpo_007

11-03-2002, 09:41 AM

I think tere is no idea to do a cross over between mirag turtles and archie ones... They are two diffrent universes from the same thing. The other one is for kids the other for little older people.

heretic888

11-03-2002, 12:52 PM

maybe so, but the mirage tmnt could still kick their kiddified fannies into next tuesday.

Kali

11-03-2002, 12:54 PM

I think of that crossover and I keep seeing a scene where Raph freaks out because he's being censored. All those little symbols constantly over his head. *falls into a fit of giggles*

Karpo_007

11-03-2002, 02:35 PM

It couldnt be possible even in theory, In cartoon there is no death, and i dont recall that TMNT would have had a mortal combat against anyone in archie either...

heretic888

11-03-2002, 09:12 PM

they wouldnt have to kill each other to fight, you know.

Karpo_007

11-04-2002, 12:21 AM

You ment that they would fight each other? Now there wouldnt be any sense, everybody would know the winner from the start...

Jephael

11-07-2002, 08:04 PM

You do know Peter Laird actually had an idea like that, don't you? He was gonna have the Kirby character from the Donatello Micro-Special show up in the Archie universe and take the turtles from that world to meet up with the Mirage universe TMNT (or something like that)

I would've loved to have seen that!

Karpo_007

11-08-2002, 04:08 AM

Read the earlier posts. Thats what we were talking about.

Machias Banshee

11-08-2002, 06:05 PM

Okay, I'm reading a lot of slamming about the Archie comix. I really liked it, as it was the only origin i had known, other than the movie one.

The origin of Splinter....I thought the archie was was pretty reasonable, considering all his knowledge about different things, i.e. The arts (martial and fine), mythology, language, and whatnot. As for how it all worked out, imagined that Yoshi had set the turtles on the floor to wander, and left to find food. He happened to find some rats going through where he was searching, maybe gettin bit by one. Once he found wht he wanted, he returned, found the turtles, and stepped into the ooze, sealing his fate, and picking up the turtles, adding some more of his "characteristics" to them...

I also like the Mirage Splinter, dont get me wrong...I just prefer the Archie one cuz he's taller, stronger (in many aspects) and not morbidly awaiting death....I'm looking forward to the new cartoon, hoping that Splinter will be more involved, no matter how he does so.

As for them fighting each other....i think they'd be too shocked at each other to really wanna fight, but that's my opinion.

That's my opinion, and if i get over-analyzed, i'm gonna take Splinter's walking staff and beat you upside the head with it... :P

Karpo_007

11-08-2002, 06:14 PM

The truth is, that the archie is just kiddified version of the TMNT. And its true, that kids might not have intrest in mirage's plot lines. And archie is better for them. When i was 6 or 7 and read the archie comic, i probably wouldnt have liked Mirage.

I think it was good that 2 comic universes existed, that way older and younger people could get in to TMNT consept.

Jephael

11-08-2002, 06:33 PM

The Archie TMNT series was based on the cartoon but I'm sure it wasn't as kiddified. Just look at what they did to the Mutanimals. I mean when's the last time you saw a massacre like that on a cartoon show?

Karpo_007

11-08-2002, 06:36 PM

I know, Archie wasnt as kiddiefied as the cartoon. That's because they could never show any kind of death in childrens cartoon.

the_minimizer

11-09-2002, 03:26 AM

That's not true. There was at least one death in the episode with the Eye of Sarnath. The alien vaporized.

And while that was the only death I can think of, there were other instances were murder was attempted.

Baxter was sent to the disintegrator in dimension-x at the technodrome. He would've died.

The numerous times Shredder tried to murder the turtles and splinter.

When the technodrome rolled through the city, crushing buildings--there could've been people inside of those buildings.

Krang was going to have his rock soldiers to open fire on Earth once it entered the portal. Billions of people would've died in the attack.

I mean, there was actually only one death so to speak, but the characters' intentions were definitely deadly and murderous.

Karpo_007

11-09-2002, 03:29 AM

Ok il correct, there couldnt be a violent death. No Krang and his rocksoldiers never could have kiled anyone. If they would have done so, the epsiode wouldnt have aired.

Jephael

11-09-2002, 07:10 AM

When the technodrome rolled through the city, crushing buildings--there could've been people inside of those buildings.

There couldn't have been people in the buildings, otherwise they'd be screaming as they were rolled over.

raphael90

11-09-2002, 12:49 PM

I like the first story of the Turtles and Hamato Yoshi mutating from the mutagen. I like the name 'mutagen' better than 'ooze'.....ooze...kinda a dumb word. There was one little flaw in that story that someone else mentioned above....

Splinter touched the Turtles before mutating....yet he still became a rat.

the_minimizer

11-09-2002, 01:20 PM

There couldn't have been people in the buildings, otherwise they'd be screaming as they were rolled over.

I didn't say there were people in there. I said there could've been people in there. It's the idea that Krang and Shredder didn't care if there was or not.

And again, it's the idea. That would've been the outcome if the rock soldiers opened fire on Earth. The intention to kill was there. The fact that it didn't happen was irrelevent.

My sister used to work at a daycare center and she said kids weren't allowed to watch TMNT cartoon because it was too violent. Kids were trying to do the moves on each other.

Karpo_007

11-09-2002, 01:21 PM

quote="raphael90"]I like the first story of the Turtles and Hamato Yoshi mutating from the mutagen. I like the name 'mutagen' better than 'ooze'.....ooze...kinda a dumb word. There was one little flaw in that story that someone else mentioned above....

Splinter touched the Turtles before mutating....yet he still became a rat.[/quote]
That isn't the first story...

Nickokapo

11-09-2002, 02:46 PM

Kids were trying to do the moves on each other.
:lol:
That isn't the first story...
Yeah...
I do like the toon story more :D sure it might have some flaws or two, but it was a 'toon, aimed to kids, not strict error seeking machines :P
The card of the toys came with the turtle story too (at least in the one i have) i wonder who did the artwork..

Karpo_007

11-09-2002, 03:32 PM

Yeah the toon and archie made the TMNT available to the kids.

heretic888

11-16-2002, 01:00 PM

regardless, the mirage story is a BETTER story in that it is deeper and more open to psychologic content.

Karpo_007

11-16-2002, 01:57 PM

I think so too, but still it's a matter of opinnion.

heretic888

11-19-2002, 10:58 AM

ahh, we are gettin into tricky waters now...... we are talking about art and determining the quality of it. it most certainly is not 'just your opinion' but at the same time it is not some rigid objective standard you can point to.

the fact is, though, the mirage story is better art than the other versions because it can serve as a means of opening the audience up to deeper aspects of themselves. the archie and cartoon most certainly do not do that.