Dreamwave is no more (with lots of TF discussion)... [Archive]

DrSpengler

12-31-2004, 02:55 PM

Yeah... It's been the rumor on the Transformers front too, that DW is suffering. Word is that Hasbro had not renewed the TF license. DW will prolly still be doing work on the small handful of orignal titles they do own. *has been noticing more and more WarLands adverts in the TF comics*

Sigh... it was fun while it lasted, though. :cry:

It's a real shame because the G1 on-going had finally started to go somewhere. I was disappointed with all the other Transformers titles they put out, but G1 after a lackluster couple of miniseries was really starting to pick up with the on-going.

It's Dreamwave's fault, though. They gained a lot of new readers by aquiring the Transformers license but instead of coming out with lots of different titles for these new readers to pick up they just flooded the market with tons of quality-challenged Transformers books. All at once we had G1, Armada/Energon, More Than Meets the Eye sourcebook, War Within, and the two GI Joe/Transformers titles.

And the other titles they DID put out weren't particularly good, either. Their Megaman book was atrocious, I dropped it after the 2nd issue (and apparantly it only lasted 4).

I dunno, Dreamwave just squandered the gift they were given (Transformers). However, the one title I read, G1, was finally starting to become a good book so it is a shame to see Dreamwave tank.

I dunno, hopefully they'll find some way to keep themselves afloat and maybe be a little wiser for it.

HorseTechie

01-01-2005, 10:08 AM

It's a real shame because the G1 on-going had finally started to go somewhere. I was disappointed with all the other Transformers titles they put out, but G1 after a lackluster couple of miniseries was really starting to pick up with the on-going.

It's Dreamwave's fault, though. They gained a lot of new readers by aquiring the Transformers license but instead of coming out with lots of different titles for these new readers to pick up they just flooded the market with tons of quality-challenged Transformers books. All at once we had G1, Armada/Energon, More Than Meets the Eye sourcebook, War Within, and the two GI Joe/Transformers titles.

I dunno, Dreamwave just squandered the gift they were given (Transformers). However, the one title I read, G1, was finally starting to become a good book so it is a shame to see Dreamwave tank.

Yeah, I was also enjoying the G1 Ongoing, as well as the War-Within series because it tied in with G1. Figueroa's pencils, the colors, and the "Brad Mick" team were a great combo. Furmon had some interesting ideas too for War Within (even though The Fallen was a bit much).

Personally, I thought they were pushing out too many different kinds of titles all at once. If they just stuck to 2 or 3, it might have been a lot more feasible. And then maybe rotate them on a bi-monthly basis too. Quality, instead of quantity. :roll:

ZariusTwo

01-03-2005, 10:48 AM

Furmon had some interesting ideas too for War Within (even though The Fallen was a bit much).

You really have to be a fan of the Generation Two comic to appreciate War Within: The Dark Ages

DrSpengler

01-03-2005, 01:34 PM

You really have to be a fan of the Generation Two comic to appreciate War Within: The Dark Ages

Generation 2 is the only arc of Furman's I've read on the whole, and I really enjoyed it.

His work on Armada/Energon was downright atrocious, though. War Within was an interesting concept, I especially enjoyed the art and character designs.

ZariusTwo

01-03-2005, 01:47 PM

Generation 2 is the only arc of Furman's I've read on the whole, and I really enjoyed it.

His work on Armada/Energon was downright atrocious, though. War Within was an interesting concept, I especially enjoyed the art and character designs.

Yup, although to be fair, Armada was forced to change to Energon by Hasbro, and Furman should never be rushed, this is why his U.K comic story arcs remains the greatest Transformers comics ever written, he was allowed to do things HIS way.

War Within is probably the greatest Trasnformers story arc that has yet to be animated, it's ten times better than the disgracful animes we're getting right now

Energon is being forced to wrap up as well due to Cybertron's immient launch, but he seems better prepared for it, too bad his last story arc did'nt go anywhere (Rad and Alexis have vanished despite the fact the story was building up to a romance with them, Starscream appeared for one issue and vanished, leaving THAT unresolved until the final story arc, etc)

DrSpengler

01-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Yeah, coporate executives calling the shots never helps. His last issue of Armada just felt so rushed and forced.

Which is why writers like Larry Hama and Furman have always impressed me. Hasbro breathed down their necks to include every new toy that came out each month in their comic and still make the comic good. And, to an extent, they DID. At least, they did a much better job than the people at Sunbow who wrote the cartoons.

They managed to write an intriguing comic with cast lists that would put the X-Men to shame, all the while including the mandatory toy commercials.

HorseTechie

01-03-2005, 02:25 PM

Hrm... I must be one of the oddities. I hadn't read the G2 Marvel comics -- except for the first issue (didn't go much further cause Wildman's art in that turned me off). Funny how DW art has spoilt me. :roll:

But I thought Furman started out rather nicely in TWW and in Armada. (I also felt like Armada was suffering by the time it became Energon though.) The thing that prolly choked Furman was DW's way of making these runs only 6 issues long. One has to be a master of short story writing to be able to tell a good story in 6 issues... so either Furman wasn't prepared for it to be cut off so soon, or he could not handle such a short time to tell an eptic tale. "Brad Mick" managed, because those two had more than 6 issues to develop something.

*makes note to self to split this thread elsewhere if it continues further down this off-topic discussion* Since I started it that way....

DrSpengler

01-03-2005, 02:36 PM

Dreamwave's TF art was both good and bad.

I loathed Pat Lee's work. His Transformers looked like inflateable pool-toys. He also had a lot of trouble paneling coherently, it was tough to tell what happened in what order.

However, Figeauro (spelling's wrong, I know) was very impressive, as was whoever took over for the on-going.

I'll admit the G2 art was bad, but the story was one of Furman's better achievements. And after a while you just get used to it.

You should see some of the Japanese G2 art by Comics Bon Bon. It made a conscious effort to emulate the American comic book art but added it's own unique touches. Probably my favorite of all the Transformers manga art (and there were some good ones).

ZariusTwo

01-03-2005, 07:54 PM

"Brad" is finished with Dreamwave, leaving that moronic Chris writing the Genration One comic once more.

DrSpengler

01-03-2005, 08:04 PM

Yeah, Mick and Patyk left due to paycheck issues. Apparantly they weren't getting them.

ZariusTwo

01-04-2005, 10:58 AM

It's official, Dreamwave are dead.

Toronto, Ontario - January 4, 2005 - Dreamwave Productions announced today that after eight years in the comics industry, four of which they were self-published, they will be ceasing operations.

Established in 1996 by brothers Pat and Roger Lee, Dreamwave infused a stagnant comic book market with art and design that effortlessly combined the then dominant "American" art style with the newly emerging Japanese "Manga" art style. Since then, the company had grown to become one of the comic book industry's premiere publishers, producing a variety of original titles.

In 2002, Dreamwave firmly established itself in the comic industry as a force to be reckoned with when it launched an all-new Transformers comic's line. The return of the 80's icons shattered industry sales records, skyrocketing the book to the number one sales slot for an impressive six months. The Toronto-based company's other successful licenses included Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Duel Masters from Japan, as well as properties like Devil May Cry and Mega Man from video game giant Capcom Entertainment.

President of Dreamwave Productions, Pat Lee stated "there are a number of reasons for my decision to close Dreamwave", citing that "the shrinking comic book market combined with a weak U.S. dollar and unsustainable monetary commitments has finally proven to be too financially taxing."

As the only Canadian independent comics publisher, Dreamwave Productions has struggled in recent years to maintain its status within a relentlessly shrinking comic book market. Unfortunately, consistently diminishing sales totals over the last several years have taken their toll on the small publisher and made it impossible to continue.

The specific details for closure have not yet been released but Lee assures both fans and clients alike that "although this is the end of Dreamwave as a comics publisher, I will still be penciling a number of new exciting projects in conjunction with other studios in the upcoming years."

PR & Marketing Department
Dreamwave Productions
Source: Dreamwave

F*CK

DrSpengler

01-04-2005, 11:35 AM

Well....sh*t!

Maybe with some luck another publisher will pick up Dreamwave's Transformers series and keep it going. Not likely, I know.

Looks like the 80's nostalgia craze is coming to a close.

Barkworm

01-04-2005, 11:37 AM

There's a strong rumour that Roger Lee has started a new company called "Dream Engine". There's already a registered URL owned by him.

KROW

01-04-2005, 11:45 AM

Looks like the 80's nostalgia craze is coming to a close.
Indeed. I hope this doesn't happen to Devil's Due. They just recently broke away from Image, didn't they?

ZariusTwo

01-04-2005, 11:48 AM

Well....sh*t!

Maybe with some luck another publisher will pick up Dreamwave's Transformers series and keep it going. Not likely, I know.

With the movie on the way, Marvel would be wise to jump on the bandwagon and re-aqquire the licsense.

Furman...Marvel...drool.

http://www.thecomicshop.com.au/site4/lot058B/ukcomic-transformers-244-good-marvel.jpg

HorseTechie

01-04-2005, 02:19 PM

As long as the art is okay, and not drawin in that same generic "superhero" fashion, I can cope with Marvel revisting the old days. I liked Dreamwave mostly cause their art style was so differnt from the rest. I'm a sucker for eye candy, what can I say. :P

There's a strong rumour that Roger Lee has started a new company called "Dream Engine". There's already a registered URL owned by him.
Ahh... so desu ka? *runs off to investigate*

Kazari

01-04-2005, 10:23 PM

So if DW is dead...does that mean their comics will be valuable? LOL

Straight-Edge

01-05-2005, 08:02 AM

Devil's Due broke away from Image over a year ago. They've since seen their share of troubles, but recently, both G.I.Joe and it's sister title "Reloaded" haev shown a swell in popularity. Sadly, Devil's Due not only has an over-inflated list of titles, most of which don't sell, but it's President is still insistant on publishing his own books, like Misplaced, which have never been popular.

If Dream Engine isn't the Lee's sneaky way of filing bankrupcy, and still staying in business, Dreamwave's Tfs will probably not be continued anywhere else. The continuity is far too convoluted to just pick up at another company and expect higher sales. Dreamwave made some very fundamental mistakes with their comic.

First: the initial arc blew livestock. The writer admitted he knew very little about Transformers, and wrote the book on the fly, and the plot betrays this. The second arc barely connects to the first, and features different characters, many of whom are unknown to casual Transfans. The point of nostalgia is that it is immediately recongizable to anyone who hasn't thought about it in years. Dreamwave moved further and further from recognizablilty by pushing convention-based characters into the spotlight, and running plot-intensive storylines that necessitated reading all their titles to understand. On top of that, many of the characters used are horribly obscure, and haven't had toys for over 15 years.

I hope Devil's Due trims the fat, leaving G.I.Joe as their flagship title, and filling it out with books that sell. They'll do well in the long run, I think. Their Joe book has a problem that is very similar to Tfs. They use far too many charactes that the casual fan never heard of. Everyone knows Duke, Snake-Eyes, Flint, Lady Jaye, Roadblock, Shipwreck, Cobra Commander, Storm Shadow, Destro, Baroness and Zartan. *Most* people know Stalker, Scarlett, Gung-Ho, Firefly, Dr. Mindbender, and the Dreadnoks. The main focus of the story should, then, be on those characters. Devil's Due only makes the mistake of *also* focusing on others, drowning their plots in too many characters. Dreamwave just ignored a lot of the popular base characters outright.

Transformers needs one thing: The Movie. When the new live-action movie hits theatres, we'll see another renaissance of the brand, and a new standard set for the cast. Until there are a core group of Autobots and Decepticons that every Transfan can know and love, we won't see a succesful comic based on the brand. There's simply too much history, too many characters and few writers who understand the need to keep things small.

TMNT, sadly, will never work as a comic.

;)
Naturally, I mean beased off the new toon. Mirage's TMNT makes sales now because people respect his integrity (even if some, like me, can't figure out what the point is). But the cartoon doesn't get the respect it should, and unless the comic was autonomous, and mature, it's not goign to float in the new industry.

ZariusTwo

01-05-2005, 08:16 AM

First: the initial arc blew livestock. The writer admitted he knew very little about Transformers, and wrote the book on the fly, and the plot betrays this. The second arc barely connects to the first

And that's a bad thing? "Brad" was a superior writer to Chris

The point of nostalgia is that it is immediately recongizable to anyone who hasn't thought about it in years. Dreamwave moved further and further from recognizablilty by pushing convention-based characters into the spotlight, and running plot-intensive storylines that necessitated reading all their titles to understand. On top of that, many of the characters used are horribly obscure, and haven't had toys for over 15 years.

Transformers has been making use of obscure characters for years, it was nothing new to Furman, and even Marvel allowed it, and the comics were still reasonably succesful.

Personally, I tihkn anyone who watches shows like again JUST because it reminds them of the past are idiots, the shows and comics have thier own excellent merits, and should be watched and read for that, not anything else

we won't see a succesful comic based on the brand. There's simply too much history, too many characters and few writers who understand the need to keep things small.

The cartoon barly kept things small in the later seasons, OR Beast Wars, and there regarded as the only good Transformers cartoons barring the early Takara seasons.

ZariusTwo

01-05-2005, 08:21 AM

So if DW is dead...does that mean their comics will be valuable? LOL

The cartoon comic was rubbish, I also got an e-mail from Dan saying they've given up completly on reviving it.

CrippledNitemare

01-05-2005, 09:06 AM

Well....sh*t!

Maybe with some luck another publisher will pick up Dreamwave's Transformers series and keep it going. Not likely, I know.

Looks like the 80's nostalgia craze is coming to a close.

Spengs! Long time no see, my old STFU mate!

Rumours are going 'round now that DW has a bunch of stuff printed in a warehouse (the end of the current War Within series, a couple issues each of the G1 and Energon series) and that Hasbro might take it upon themselves to publish these issues just to keep their fans happy. Also: Both Marvel and Devil's Due are on the hunt for the Transformers license.

But the reprise of the TMNT comic won't ever happen at this point. So those holding breath can now release.

tOkKa

01-05-2005, 12:19 PM

-->> .. i'll do.. i'll take the reigns ..i'll publish the books

..as a cost effective measure i've decided to do something rash, yet practical ..

..all further TMNT animation comics will be printed on 2- ply stock..

http://www.rosecity.net/al_gore/toilet_paper.jpg

..this way further justifying all those that hated the original D.W. comic and often reffered to it as 'crap' ..

.. our state of the art printing technoledgy has revolutioniZed toilet reading in a whole new way.. you literally will be able to ..

"FLUSH YOUR INVESTMENT"

..sanitation lines thru' out the globe will be blasted and platered with your bowel entrails and the Turtles !! (Also good for cleanin' up after a bad pizza dinner..)

..please place your orders now and make checks payable to :

"tOkKA'z Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Novelty Toilet Papaer Comic Company and Denture Grip factory of Tuscaloosa, Cinncinati"

..all toilet paper comics are sold 'as is' and refunds will only be made for unused/unopened packages.. :dead:

.. i have high hopes for this current endevourer and look forward to entertaining and wiping yir arse in the future !! :P

..and well if you run outta comics ,it ain't my fault..

.. i'll have to take the stance as to why there is no toilet paper at KFC ..
http://www.orkiestra.demo.pl/images/KFC.gif

..Cuz it's finger lickin' good..

ZariusTwo

01-05-2005, 01:59 PM

http://www.rosecity.net/al_gore/toilet_paper.jpg[/SIZE]

Thanks for uploading the cover of the Trade Paperback for Dreawaves' Ninja Turtles comic :lol:

HorseTechie

01-05-2005, 02:15 PM

*tsk* The TMNT comics weren't all that bad. The major fault on those was that PD wrote too much for the die-hard TMNT fan... and not to the everyday joe who kinda sorta liked TMNT. Thus, if a person didn't know TMNT inside and out, he/she definately did not get what PD was talking about. :roll:

And that's a bad thing? "Brad" was a superior writer to Chris

Transformers has been making use of obscure characters for years, it was nothing new to Furman, and even Marvel allowed it, and the comics were still reasonably succesful.

Personally, I tihkn anyone who watches shows like again JUST because it reminds them of the past are idiots, the shows and comics have thier own excellent merits, and should be watched and read for that, not anything else

I second that... "Brad Mick" worked out great by giving the TF's great character and plot development, and did better coping with the short story arcs DW assigned to them. Yah.. they did start out sounding a bit clique to the movie, but that was fading quickly toward the last stint of the G1 ongoing.

Comics aside.. the breadth of the TF saga is more than just nostalgia. Between the cartoons and Furman's previous comics, there is a huge history and saga that is as epic as Star wars and Lord of the Rings. Very profound... I do hope the next comic compnay that picks up on Hasbro's license does well to taps into that with more sucess.

I also wonder where the artists and writers who had been with Dreamwave will go. Figueroa and a couple of other pencilers there were just to awesome to now be forgotten.... :(

Kid Icarus

01-05-2005, 02:23 PM

Hey, I for one loved the DW TMNT series... I thought they were a great studio.

DrSpengler

01-05-2005, 02:31 PM

One thing I liked most about the Transformers cartoons was that there's SO MUCH material!

I've seen everything, including all the Japanese stuff (even that crappy stop-motion adaptation of Scramble City). The shows have more low points than good, but I love em all the same.

Beast Wars is without a doubt the best Transformers series ever made. The content it added to the series, especially in regards to their religion, was magnificent.

If anyone is interested in reading alllll about the religion of the Transformers (in the cartoon, it's completely different in the comics), you might want to check this essay out:

http://tfarchive.com/creative/showentry.php?s=178

tOkKa

01-05-2005, 03:11 PM

-->> http://www.mikeystmnt.com/images/news/tmnt-1_cinemanga.jpg

DrSpengler

01-05-2005, 03:27 PM

Ya know, I never got the point of those things? Why not just buy the DVD and get the entire story with moving pictures and sound? A lot of the cine-mangas I've seen are very poorly put together, too. With the screenshots being almost randomly strewn over the page.

I dunno, it's just nothing "new" to them.

ZariusTwo

01-05-2005, 04:34 PM

Generation One had a lot of classic episodes that certaingly blew away most of what you see today, just try and find something like "Ultimate Doom" , "The Burden Hardest To Bear", and "The Key to Vector Sigma" on Atomic Betty...

Beast Wars is without a doubt the best Transformers series ever made. The content it added to the series, especially in regards to their religion, was magnificent.

Yup, although Generation One will always be superior in my eyes, Beast Wars balanced both cartoon and comic continunity well, and succesfully panderd to both fanbases.

HorseTechie

01-05-2005, 05:01 PM

Yah, I still pay my respects to G1, but I also like Beast Wars, and now I add Super Link to my list of Must Worship TF sagas.

Forget Energon, they did a crap job redubbing that. DW also did not do well on the comic version. The Japanese Superlink story is way more impressive.... and they actually had a few characters die! :o Right there before your eyes, in the cartoon! (yes, die... not all of them got rebuilt) Didn't need to make a seperate off-TV movie to make that happen either. ;)

Hence, I'll like anything now that has a profound plot and great character development. G1 was just the foundation for the rest. :D

DrSpengler

01-05-2005, 05:34 PM

It also might be of interest to you that Armada and Energon, animation-wise, are the BETAs of their Japanese counterparts (Micron Legend and Superlink). So the animation in the Japanese shows is a good deal better than the animation in the American versions (in Armada's case, almost completely different).

ZariusTwo

01-05-2005, 05:50 PM

Meh...Superlink is nothing special, I've seen better efforts from the earlier Takara seasons, but if you like it, that's fine.

DrSpengler

01-05-2005, 06:14 PM

Personally, I haven't been pleased with anything since Beast Machines. Car Robot was pointless, Armada was the lowest point in Transformer television history, and Energon is the best we've gotten out of Japan since the Unicron Saga of Beast Wars Neo.

To be honest, Japan is terrible when it comes to writing Transformer cartoons, or Transformer ANYTHING for that matter (the manga, though beautiful, was written by 6 year olds). I mean, it's not like they're incapable of writing good, intelligent Transformer cartoons. Victory stands as one of the best Transformer cartoons ever made, but sadly that was 15 years ago and they've only gone downhill. Beast Wars II is the worst Transformer cartoon ever made next to Armada.

They also tried their best to ruin the American Beast Wars series with a VERY bad dub.

I just wish Hasbro would give America another shot at writing Transformers again. Beast Wars is recognized as one of the best efforts at Transformers television, get those guys back!

HorseTechie

01-06-2005, 10:53 AM

But that all depends if you like Japanese influences or not. I appreciate Asian culture, so I find the influences written into Micron/Superlink to be interesting. And then the company chosen to make the dubs/subs makes a huge difference too. The conversion between Superlink to Energon was bad, as it was between the US Beast Wars to the Japanese dub. Best to just stick with the orginal, sometimes.

Unfortunatley, I have not seen previous Japanese cartoon shows of Transformers before RiD yet. (as it would be rather expensive for me to obtain) Robots in Disguise... that's the one version I distain. :dead: I even place Beast Machines above that.

DrSpengler

01-06-2005, 11:05 AM

But that all depends if you like Japanese influences or not. I appreciate Asian culture, so I find the influences written into Micron/Superlink to be interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Takara who was first to produce Transformers as toys, and Hasbro took on the American reindition (the cartoon was later made to better sell the toys). Many collectors also prefer Takara toys over Hasbro's too. So it's all a matter of opinion as to who's is best, really.

Unfortunatley, I have not seen previous Japanese cartoon shows of Transformers before RiD yet. (as it would be rather expensive for me to obtain) Robots in Disguise... that's the one version I distain. :dead: I even place Beast Machines above that.

Who created Transformers, Hasbro or Takara? That question asks a mouth-full.

The correct answer is "it was a joint production all the way". But if you want it complicated...

Back in the 60's Hasbro released a series of toys called GI Joe. The toys were imported to Japan and renamed Combat Joe. They were very popular, especially the size and articulation. So Takara made their own toys inspired by GI Joe called Microman. The Microman line eventually evolved into Microchange and Henshin Cybrog.

At the same time Takara had a line of toys called Diaclone (they were all transforming robots with human pilots). The line was unsuccessful in both Japan and America.

In the 80's Hasbro approached Takara and asked to use some of their toys for a new line in America called "The Transformers". Takara gave them the rights to Diaclone and Microchange as well as "borrowed" molds from Bandai, Takatoka, Toybox and Toyco.

Hasbro then hired Marvel/Sunbow to write a story for the toys. They came up with the Transformers characters and mythology. Sunbow then hired Toei Studios in Japan to animate the cartoon for release in 1984.

The cartoon and toys were so popular in America that in 1985 Takara imported the toys back to Japan and released the Transformers cartoon at the same time. The show was an immediate hit there as well.

And it's been back and forth ever since. The Transformers was a joint success between Japan and America, completely 50/50. While Takara produces the better toys, hands down, America has always written the better cartoons.

I also appreciate Japanese culture (I can speak the language, ya know) but I hate anime cliches. Car Robot/Robots in Disguise is the very example of why Japan shouldn't write Transformers anymore. They aim the line at children rather than giving it broad appeal. Beast Wars was a hit in Japan and America between children, teenagers and adults because it has something for everyone.

I didn't make it past episode 6 of Armada.

Anarchistguy

01-06-2005, 12:27 PM

I've always wanted to know this...what does everyone here think of Beast Machines?

DrSpengler

01-06-2005, 02:23 PM

I've always wanted to know this...what does everyone here think of Beast Machines?

Beast Machines deserves credit for being something completely different.

Since 1984 the Decepticons were always terribly outnumbered by Autobots. It was no contest.

Beast Machines was different. There were 1000 Vehicons for every Maximal. The Maximals were weak and in hiding throughout most of the series. It was very different and VERY dark.

I liked it.

I also liked how it stand as the finale to the original Transformers universe that began in 84. And it certainly does feel like an ending.

ZariusTwo

01-06-2005, 03:59 PM

I've always wanted to know this...what does everyone here think of Beast Machines?

Bollocks.

Major bollocks.

Bob Skir had no experiance with Transformers before he pulled out that B.S "Organic Planet" origin, and as a result, he was sent death threats for trying to mess with an established franchise rather than honour the continunity like Bob and Larry did with Beast Wars, not to mention the toyline sucked and did'nt sell well at all.

He refuses to go to Transformers conventions, because he knews if he even DARES show his face there, they'll rip him apart.

True Transformers fans don't count it as part of continunity it has it's own little, mediocre fanbase, but overall it's regarded next to Armada as the black sheep of the Transformers franchise

"Endgame" was'nt even supposed to BE the bloody finale, as Hasbro were going to restore the Trasnformers to thier technological roots with Trasntech, but it never came around, eventually, Simon Furman made us ALL happy by undoing all of Beast Machines' crap with the Hasbro licensed convention comic Transformers: Universe

Barkworm

01-06-2005, 04:40 PM

True Transformers fans don't count it as part of continunity
And who gives you the right to say what "True Transformers fans" count and what they can't?

DrSpengler

01-06-2005, 06:20 PM

True Transformers fans don't count it as part of continunity

Bullsh*t.

Just because YOU didn't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And you have no place speaking for "true" Transformers fans.

It happened, it's continuity in both Japan and America. Deal with it.

ZariusTwo

01-06-2005, 08:48 PM

Bullsh*t.p

That describes Beast Machines admirably

And you have no place speaking for "true" Transformers fans.

Actually, that was a typo

I meant to say "true, SOME Trasnformers fans count it as continunity", it came out the wrong way and I just noticed the mistake.

Besides, the majority of the fanbase agrees anyway, I'm not alone, did'nt you read the part where I said Beast Machines had a MEDIOCRE Fanbase?

It happened, it's continuity in both Japan and America. Deal with it.

Hasbro licensed the Transformers: Universe comic, Universe is undoing all of Beast Machines' mistakes, it's happening, deal with it, and do your homework on these things before giving me OLD news

DrSpengler

01-06-2005, 08:55 PM

That describes Beast Machines admirably

[quote]And you have no place speaking for "true" Transformers fans.[/quite]

About a billion other sites barring a slight few say otherwise, I'm not alone, did'nt you read the part where I said Beast Machines had a MEDIOCRE Fanbase?

Hasbro licensed the Transformers: Universe comic, Universe is undoing all of Beast Machines' mistakes, deal with it, and do your homework on these things before giving me OLD news

It is not undoing Beast Machines. If anyone should have done their researchit was Furman when he wrote the Ultimate Guide. And don't tell me to do my research, buddy. Between his 10,000 f*ck ups and glossing over of the Japanese shows, Furman also believed that Trypticon is Beast Wars Megatron.

Beast Machines has not been erased from any continuity, and certainly not by a poorly written book or a toyline made entirely of repaints. Until there's some Transformers cartoon series that disregards Beast Machines entirely it's part of continuity.

Or do you mean the Beast Wars comic by Dreamwave? The same people who can't even write two miniseries that flow together properly?

Guess what, Hasbro licensed the Dreamwave universe. Sh*t, I guess that means the Marvel comic never happened. Or the G1 cartoon. Or anything for that matter, because Dreamwave started from scratch.

They aren't "erasing" continuity, espeically for a continuity that's over and done with (the original tv universe is closed).

As a matter of fact, Beast Machines has just been PICKED UP as continuity in Japan! Ever heard of Beast Wars Returns? Yeah, do your research.

ZariusTwo

01-06-2005, 09:05 PM

It is not undoing Beast Machines. If anyone should have done their researchit was Furman when he wrote the Ultimate Guide. And don't tell me to do my research, buddy. Between his 10,000 f*ck ups and glossing over of the Japanese shows, Furman also believed that Trypticon is Beast Wars Megatron.

Looks like we have a Japanease puritan in our midst...great, there the worst when it comes to these debates, they count every series as continunity outside of the established alternate dimensions, nothing wrong with that beleif, but irrelvant to fans of the pure American shows, even I don't count the Takara years as continunity, neither does Beast Wars.

I'm not THAT biased towards Furman you know, he's had his share of screw ups (The Ultimate Guide, the Two Megatrons that screwed up "Time Wars" etc)

Beast Machines has not been erased from any continuity, and certainly not by a poorly written book or a toyline made entirely of repaints.

Tsk, touchy, touchy, poorly written? Try "Forbidden Fruit" for poorly written, try Nightscream for poorly written

Until there's some Transformers cartoon series that disregards Beast Machines entirely it's part of continuity.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure....even telivision shows can continue beyond thier alleged "conclusion", just look at the Doctor Who audio adventures.

One was bad, the second amazing and more consistent, choosing to blame different writers with differing experiance with the franchise is'nt fair on them, OR the mini-series.

[quote]Guess what, Hasbro licensed the Dreamwave universe. Sh*t, I guess that means the Marvel comic never happened. Or the G1 cartoon. Or anything for that matter, because Dreamwave started from scratch.

Dreamwave picked things up years after the first two seasons, starting in 2002, and Hasbro jumped on the bandwagon labeling it their "official" continunity, the Marvel comic did'nt happen in "proper" continunity because we saw a different origin in the first issue, the Dreamwave titles did NOT begin with a revamp of the pilot episode.

As a matter of fact, Beast Machines has just been PICKED UP as continuity in Japan! Ever heard of Beast Wars Returns?.

No s*it Sherlock, but I'm NOT a Japanease puritan like you, I don't count any of the Japanease shows as genuine extensions of the series, I never will

It was a TYPO that f*cking got me into this crap, if any of you got it wrong, I apologise.

DrSpengler

01-06-2005, 09:46 PM

Looks like we have a Japanease puritan in our midst...great, there the worst when it comes to these debates, they count every series as continunity outside of the established alternate dimensions, nothing wrong with that beleif, but irrelvant to fans of the pure American shows, even I don't count the Takara years as continunity, neither does Beast Wars.

Ah, and that's any different from being an American-cartoon puritan? Or a UK-comics puritan?

As far as the cartoons got the Japanese series has a much richer history (despite some poorly written series) than the American shows which just ended with Rebirth.

It isn't a matter of you "not counting" Headmasters and onward as American continuity because they AREN'T American continuity. Same as me "not counting" Rebirth as Japanese continuity. It's a matter of fact, not personal opinion.

I'm not THAT biased towards Furman you know, he's had his share of screw ups (The Ultimate Guide, the Two Megatrons that screwed up "Time Wars" etc)

Don't forget his run on Armada.

Tsk, touchy, touchy, poorly written? Try "Forbidden Fruit" for poorly written, try Nightscream for poorly written

You, the guy who threw a temper tantrum because somebody called Shriek from Maximum Carnage "Scream", the guy who flips if anyone says "I like the new TMNT cartoon better", are calling me touchy? Hilarious.

And as for the poorly written episodes, there were just as many, if not more, good ones. I'm sorry if trying something different goes against your religion. We can't all be stuck in 1985.

You want poorly written try 2/3 of the episodes in G1 seasons 1 and 2. The Japanese shows may not have been great but at least they maintained consistant continuity.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure....even telivision shows can continue beyond thier alleged "conclusion", just look at the Doctor Who audio adventures.

Give me a point that picks up where Beast Wars left off aside from BEast Machines. The canceled Dreamwave comic? The blurbs on the back of Universe toys?

One was bad, the second amazing and more consistent, choosing to blame different writers with differing experiance with the franchise is'nt fair on them, OR the mini-series.

I'd hardly call the second amazing. It was an improvement, but then after the debacle of the first miniseries it would almost have to be. Where was the consistency in Grimlock becoming an Autobot again without any explaination? Where was the consistency in Wheeljack coming back to life when he was most obviously meant to be dead? Where was the consistency in Superion being shown as disassembled when he was obviously vaporized? Sorry, but retconning does not count as consistency.

Dreamwave picked things up years after the first two seasons, starting in 2002, and Hasbro jumped on the bandwagon labeling it their "official" continunity, the Marvel comic did'nt happen in "proper" continunity because we saw a different origin in the first issue, the Dreamwave titles did NOT begin with a revamp of the pilot episode.

Dreamwave does not take place after the first two seasons of the cartoon, if that's what you're trying to say. And Dreamwave isn't "proper" continuity. There is no "proper" continuity, just several different ones. There's a number of different continuities going on right now, which one of them is "proper"? They're all "proper". Just as all the old ones are "proper".

No s*it Sherlock, but I'm NOT a Japanease puritan like you, I don't count any of the Japanease shows as genuine extensions of the series, I never will

A shame as they are "genuine" extensions of the series, just a different continuity. See if you can grasp the concept of "different" continuities and not just a single "proper" one which happens to be whatever you decide to shamble together in your mind.

There is no "right" or "wrong" continuity unless it's one you've bullsh*tted together in your head. Japanese continuity is official. It happened. American continuity is official. It happened. UK continuity is official. It happened. Etc.

All the "I hate Beast Machines it was different waaahhh" won't change that.

It was a TYPO that f*cking got me into this crap, if any of you got it wrong, I apologise.

Appology accepted.

ZariusTwo

01-06-2005, 10:38 PM

As far as the cartoons got the Japanese series has a much richer history (despite some poorly written series) than the American shows which just ended with Rebirth.

Rebirth was vastly underated by...practically everybody I think, the animation was poor, but the episodes were solid, just...don't mention the Arcee/Daniel realtionship...sickening.

Don't forget his run on Armada.

Oh, you mean the "Hey, let's bring back all my old favourate obscure Generation One Deceptacons like Bludgeon and Thunderwing, plus my FAVOURATE, Galvatron and put them together in a pointless crossover that goes nowhere?"

Yeha, including that.

the guy who flips if anyone says "I like the new TMNT cartoon better", are calling me touchy? Hilarious.

I acted in defense of the original cartoon when those people went out of thier way to bash it in favour of the new one, anything else was perfectly fine.

And as for the poorly written episodes, there were just as many, if not more, good ones.

If by that, you mean Season Two when it was'nt dealing with the incessantly annoying Savage/Noble and hate virus rehashes, I would agree

You want poorly written try 2/3 of the episodes in G1 seasons 1 and 2. The Japanese shows may not have been great but at least they maintained consistant continuity.

Yes, I suspected you'd use that argument, which I do agree with somewhat, season one had more consitently good episodes than season two did, even Season Three is IMMESURABLY guilty of some of the worst Transformers epiosdes ever (Suprise Party, Carnage In C-Minor, Nightmare Planet, etc)

Give me a point that picks up where Beast Wars left off aside from BEast Machines. The canceled Dreamwave comic?

Had it been given a chance before Dreamwave folded, then yes, I'd use the comic as an example, Issue One is the only one supposedly coming out, I guess I could say there's an option, even if it IS open ended

I'd hardly call the second amazing. It was an improvement, but then after the debacle of the first miniseries it would almost have to be. Where was the consistency in Grimlock becoming an Autobot again without any explaination? Where was the consistency in Wheeljack coming back to life when he was most obviously meant to be dead? Where was the consistency in Superion being shown as disassembled when he was obviously vaporized? Sorry, but retconning does not count as consistency.

Things can happen off-screen, these characters can exist even when we're not reading or watching them, Wheeljack's death was never acknowledged in words, merly implied in the writing, so it could be taken that he was in some form of coma, and was revived later.

So long as you keep that in mind that characters have lives off-screen, anything is possible, at least in Grimlocks' case, as for Superion, that was probably the one aspect of Chris' work I did'nt want changed...at all.

There is no "right" or "wrong" continuity unless it's one you've bullsh*tted together in your head. Japanese continuity is official. It happened. American continuity is official. It happened. UK continuity is official. It happened. Etc.

What's your stand on Beast Wars exactly anyway? Beast Wars does'nt known which continunity to follow 90% of the time, one minute it's an expansion of Furmans' Generation Two, and the next it's an expansion of the original cartoon.

Appology accepted.

Sorry for the whole mess to begin with, I should watch my typing sometimes

DrSpengler

01-07-2005, 10:36 AM

Rebirth was vastly underated by...practically everybody I think, the animation was poor, but the episodes were solid, just...don't mention the Arcee/Daniel realtionship...sickening.

It was a bad idea, for sure. Not neccessarily David Wise's fault, as the idea to include EVERY new character was the word of Hasbro. And budget cut-backs turned a 5 part arc into a 3 part arc.

But the how and why are regardless since the end result was a very bad three-parter. It had it's moments to be sure, but Headmasters is easily the superior series if only that it took as much time as it needed to introduce the new characters and give them personality.

Oh, you mean the "Hey, let's bring back all my old favourate obscure Generation One Deceptacons like Bludgeon and Thunderwing, plus my FAVOURATE, Galvatron and put them together in a pointless crossover that goes nowhere?"

Yeha, including that.

K.

If by that, you mean Season Two when it was'nt dealing with the incessantly annoying Savage/Noble and hate virus rehashes, I would agree

THe entire premise of Beast Machines was a stroke of creativity. It was, for all intents and purposes, the Darkest Hour of the Maximals/Autobots. With the exception of 5 Maximals, every descendant of the Autobots was dead. Megatron had WON the Beast Wars and taken over Cybertron. And none of that "letting the Autobots watch him from the moon" crap, he annihilated the enemy. It was the bleakest moment in Maximal/Autobot history (at least as far as the cartoons go) and you were never quite sure if the good guys would actually win or not. But despite all the adversity and overwhelming odds, the good guys triumphed and REAL unity was brought to Cybertron.

It was a grand finale that showed just what the Autobots/Maximals were made of. Despite the odss, they were still able to win.

Yes, I suspected you'd use that argument, which I do agree with somewhat, season one had more consitently good episodes than season two did, even Season Three is IMMESURABLY guilty of some of the worst Transformers epiosdes ever (Suprise Party, Carnage In C-Minor, Nightmare Planet, etc)

Season 3 had some bad episodes all right, but it also had something the second season never did, cotinuity. One episode lead into another, certain actions brought consequences, and concepts weren't just introduced for a single episode and then forgotten about entirely. "Starscream used to be a scientist...all right, let's never bring that up again".

Had it been given a chance before Dreamwave folded, then yes, I'd use the comic as an example, Issue One is the only one supposedly coming out, I guess I could say there's an option, even if it IS open ended

It's an optional continuity, yes, but then so is Beast Machines. However, Diamond has stated that absolutely no items from Dreamwave will be shipped (including Beast Wars).

Things can happen off-screen, these characters can exist even when we're not reading or watching them, Wheeljack's death was never acknowledged in words, merly implied in the writing, so it could be taken that he was in some form of coma, and was revived later.

So long as you keep that in mind that characters have lives off-screen, anything is possible, at least in Grimlocks' case, as for Superion, that was probably the one aspect of Chris' work I did'nt want changed...at all.

But that just isn't good writing, if you ask me. You don't leave key plot points or character developement to the reader's imagination. And if you do, do it right. This came off as just lazy.

Grimlock left with moral ambiguity, leaving his story open-ended for the next volume. But when that volume arrived he was an Autobot again like nothing had happened. A little too much like the old cartoon, if you ask me. And in the case of Wheeljack it was obviously meant that he was supposed to be dead. The least we could've gotten was a quick dialogue explaination ("Golly Wheeljack, we almost lost you there for a minute!").

It was just...lazy. The On-going I have fewer qualms with. However, it's also guilty of leaving plotlines from the second volume unanswered (like Alpha Trion). Perhaps had it gone on we might have gotten the answers. Guess we'll never know.

What's your stand on Beast Wars exactly anyway? Beast Wars does'nt known which continunity to follow 90% of the time, one minute it's an expansion of Furmans' Generation Two, and the next it's an expansion of the original cartoon.

Ya see, I always viewed Beast Wars as a continuation of the cartoon series, both American and Japanese continuity (works perfectly either way). Mainly because it just has more references to the cartoon than the comic. Starscream being vaporized by Galvatron and having an immortal Spark, Shrapnel's speech impediment, and if you want to go into Beast Machines, the Hate Plague.

Just about the only real mention of the comics (in the show itself) was Primus. However, the religion of the Transformers seen in Beast Wars itself was nothing like the religion seen in the comics. Exactly where Primus stands as a deity is unknown. I know the writers intended to make the Vok aliens members of the Swarm from the G2 comics, or something to that effect, but the concept was never implemented or even implied in the cartoon itself.

Frankly, Beast Wars fits much better as a sequel to the cartoon than to the comic book.

ZariusTwo

01-07-2005, 10:54 AM

It was a bad idea, for sure. Not neccessarily David Wise's fault, as the idea to include EVERY new character was the word of Hasbro. And budget cut-backs turned a 5 part arc into a 3 part arc.

But the how and why are regardless since the end result was a very bad three-parter. It had it's moments to be sure, but Headmasters is easily the superior series

Agreed, Wise did what he could, Part Three is the strongest of the three parts and flows pretty well, the first two parts have thier own little moments (mostly attributed to Primes' vision quest) but MAN the commercisilism was so...blatant.

Season 3 had some bad episodes all right, but it also had something the second season never did, cotinuity.One episode lead into another, certain actions brought consequences, and concepts weren't just introduced for a single episode and then forgotten about entirely. "Starscream used to be a scientist...all right, let's never bring that up again".[/quote]

To say nothing of how many times the Constructicons' origins were f*cked up, one minute Omega Supreme is behind them, the next they were created on Earth...

Frankly, Beast Wars fits much better as a sequel to the cartoon than to the comic book.

Agreed..

DrSpengler

01-07-2005, 12:31 PM

Well, one thing I loved and hated about Rebirth was the shear volume of characters.

"Rodimus, the Decepticons are heading your way!"

"How many of them!?"

"ALL of them!!"

That was pretty tight.

HorseTechie

01-08-2005, 04:27 PM

Hmm... guys? Transformers are essentially just a bunch of fictional characters Hasbro created so they can sell more toys n crap. Nothing for y'all to be getting your circuits into a knot about. Okay? ;)

I've always wanted to know this...what does everyone here think of Beast Machines?

I'm indifferent about it. I thought it was okay, even thought it made little sense as a sequel to Beast Wars and G1. But at the time it first came out, I didn't really care. I was just happy to have something fun to watch on Saturday mornings, to pass the time. :P I haven't seen it since then though.

But to me, Transformers = fun. It can be anything, from G1 to Superlink, marvel to Dreamwave. If it strikes some spark of amusement in me, then I that's all I need to like them. I don't like something becuase everyone else sez I must. I'm a fan of the Transformers just becuase I like the characters, the various backgrounds, and the different reasons that they are in war with each other. :D

ZariusTwo

01-08-2005, 07:00 PM

Hmm... guys? Transformers are essentially just a bunch of fictional characters Hasbro created so they can sell more toys n crap. Nothing for y'all to be getting your circuits into a knot about. Okay? ;)

Transformers has become a lot more than what Hasbro had intended the show to be, if you think episodes like "Dark Awakening" from Generation One or "Code of Hero" from Beast Wars were "just to sell toys", there is something wrong with you.

But to me, Transformers = fun. It can be anything, from G1 to Superlink, marvel to Dreamwave. If it strikes some spark of amusement in me, then I that's all I need to like them. I don't like something becuase everyone else sez I must. I'm a fan of the Transformers just becuase I like the characters, the various backgrounds, and the different reasons that they are in war with each other. :D

I like Trasnsformers when it has a point to it's story...a direction, Energon/Superlink are both terrible shows, in fact, that's what's wrong with most animated shows now (barring the overuse of crappy, badly dubbed anime): All style, no bloody substance, it's the worst reason to ever watch a cartoon

At least Armada/Micron Legend was able to conclude with a mature story arc that made use of the characters in ways that most people would never beleive (Alexis/Starscream might very well the greatest Human/Transformer couple ever, it was THAT good) plus it had Unicron, but by the time Superlink ended, I was convinced the Japanese have no clue how to handle Trasnformers any more, Superlink ended with Megatron being possesed by Unicron (His body having been destroyed seven episodes too early) and Primus turning into some kind of sun which consumed him....LAME.

DrSpengler

01-08-2005, 08:27 PM

Though it's doubtful the writing will improve any, Cybertron/Galaxy Force is going to be animated by Gonzo Studios, so it should at least be a lot prettier (hoping that this time America gets the FINISHED version and not the BETA, which is why Armada and Energon looked so awful).

To be honest, I liked it better when both Japan and America were making Transformers cartoons simultaneously. Now Hasbro or whoever has just gotten lazy and only imports the poorly written Japanese stuff.

Hell, the GOOD Japanese stuff may never see American shores! It's quite possible that Victory will never get a DVD release over here, nor the beautifully animated Zone OVA. And if you want a badass Unicron arc, check out the Unicron Saga at the end of Beast Wars Neo. The series may have been awful up to that point, but the finale was incredible! The ending also makes the events of Beast Machines/Beast Wars Returns all the more tragic.

ZariusTwo

01-08-2005, 09:30 PM

Though it's doubtful the writing will improve any, Cybertron/Galaxy Force is going to be animated by Gonzo Studios, so it should at least be a lot prettier (hoping that this time America gets the FINISHED version and not the BETA, which is why Armada and Energon looked so awful).

Here's the sad thing: Japan are supposedly remaking Armada with Galaxy Force, but Hasbro are treating Cybertron with a completly different premise and storyline for America, although both will not be connected to Energon

The Transformers comic will be a continuation of Energon though...it just goes to show how stupid Hasbro is, there pefectly willing to allow a comic contuninty but are refusing to connect thier next imported Transformers anime with the last one.

HorseTechie

01-10-2005, 09:00 PM

*shrugs* Yeah, Armada and Energon came out like crap, but that hasn't stopped a good chunk of us fans from liking it anyway. A lot more than those who liked RiD and Beast Machines at least!

Galaxy Force does "look" better (just saw the first ep!), but the story is baffling. So many of us think it does have a tie in with Superlink. The correlations are so many.

But yes, I see that Armada theme again. The Autobots are again in search of these energy force chips spread out across the galaxy that they need to save their planet. And of course, we got 3 chatty kids (two boys and one girl) who are first to discover the TFs and keep them a secret from everyone else. *eyeshift* Be nice if they could for once think up a whole new story arc. Maybe.

Fight scenes are awesome though. :D

DrSpengler

01-10-2005, 09:42 PM

So in comparisonto Rad, Carlos and Alexis, how annoying are these new children?

Before Armada came along I was certain no human character could ever out do the annoyingness of the Junior Headmasters in Masterforce. I was wrong. Please tell me these new kids aren't the next level of irritating.

ZariusTwo

01-10-2005, 10:28 PM

HorseTechie

01-11-2005, 05:25 AM

Oh... forgot about this jab...

Transformers has become a lot more than what Hasbro had intended the show to be, if you think episodes like "Dark Awakening" from Generation One or "Code of Hero" from Beast Wars were "just to sell toys", there is something wrong with you.
So desu ka? I was only just trying to speak for what makes up the other half the TF fandom. The toy collectors. They care more about is getting every cool TF that comes out first. If they can see the shows too, great. But if they don't, they don't seem to sweat it as long as they got their toys. (of course, I am not one of these fans. I prefer saving my money and watching the shows, as you know.)

You need to get out into the Transfandom a little more, Zarius, before making such a biased judgement. ;)

So in comparisonto Rad, Carlos and Alexis, how annoying are these new children?

Before Armada came along I was certain no human character could ever out do the annoyingness of the Junior Headmasters in Masterforce. I was wrong. Please tell me these new kids aren't the next level of irritating.
Heh-heh... they sound annoying as is. But yet, Kicker was also annoying in the first ep, when later he became a little more palatable. I'm just gonna cross my fingers and hope those three new kids won't become whiney brats as the show progresses. The good thing at least, only two of them like to talk alot. :roll: