Who would have won? [Archive] - The Technodrome Forums

Masked Ninja

11-28-2005, 10:10 PM

As much as I'd like to see Leo take it, I voted Usagi. That rabbit kicks some serious trash. However, I've always wondered if Leo's poisoning was a convenient plot device to remove the necessity of showing who would win between Leo and Usagi. I mean, their match is nullified, and Mikey gets to take center stage for once! It all works out!

Though now that I think about it, I could see Leo and Usagi sparring multiple times and each getting the better of the other on occasion. I tend to think of 'em as equally skilled, but Usagi is more used to the Battle Nexus environment... eh, whatever. I'm stickin' with the bunny.

Ryona

11-28-2005, 10:38 PM

Ooooh! It's tough for me to say!

I would say the winner would be either Leo or Usagi. They seem evenly matched and the victory could go either way.

Though, if it's true what ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael (damn, that's a long name) said about Peter Laird saying that Usagi would beat any of the TMNT in a fight (I guess that includes even Leonardo), I guess it would ultimately be Usagi.

Though I do believe that while Usagi is a better swordsman than Leo, I would also believe that Leo is a better unarmed fighter.

Mikey is an amazing fighter, but I think the only way he could get passed Leo and Usagi is if they gave him the match like Splinter did.

lambofun

11-28-2005, 11:24 PM

Usagi is more trained againest Leo.

Fledermaus

11-28-2005, 11:55 PM

The Wabbit, of course...:D

Sage Ninja

11-28-2005, 11:57 PM

Usagi all the way whoo-hoo!!

Man that Rabbit is awsome I love him to pieces and Leonardo and him have such a great understanding and rapport with one another, I love their scenes!

Why is Mikey even up their on the poll?:ohwell:

Blondus

11-29-2005, 03:21 AM

Usagi. Better disciplined, better trained. Reminds me abit of Jin from Saurai Champloo...

Ryona

11-29-2005, 09:48 AM

Why is Mikey even up their on the poll?:ohwell:

That's what I'm wondering too. The fact that Mikey has got any votes period is ridiculous. I seriously doubt Leo or Usagi would have been as generous towards Mikey as Splinter was and just give him the win.

Anarky

11-29-2005, 09:56 AM

Though, if it's true what ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael (damn, that's a long name) said about Peter Laird saying that Usagi would beat any of the TMNT in a fight (I guess that includes even Leonardo), I guess it would ultimately be Usagi.
Usagi would win. Peter is one of the people who create canon, and that's a fact. Therefore, Leonardo would not win. Usagi would.

Hehe... this sounded almost like the people who still think that Harry Potter and Hermione Granger will end up in love, despite the fact, that Joan K. Rowling, the author (=canon) said that it would be Ron Weasley and Hermione. There is no arguing with canon.

Fledermaus

11-29-2005, 10:43 AM

Usagi would win. Peter is one of the people who create canon, and that's a fact. Therefore, Leonardo would not win. Usagi would.

Hehe... this sounded almost like the people who still think that Harry Potter and Hermione Granger will end up in love, despite the fact, that Joan K. Rowling, the author (=canon) said that it would be Ron Weasley and Hermione. There is no arguing with canon.

Canon? I have never heard the word used this way. :ohwell:

Rhane

11-29-2005, 11:48 AM

I voted for the bunny. If Peter Laird said it then there's no fighting it in my book.

Sewer Bull

11-29-2005, 11:49 AM

Usagi. Because he is oh-so-marvelous.

It's funny Mikey's got more votes than Leo...

Ryona

11-29-2005, 11:53 AM

It's funny Mikey's got more votes than Leo...

That's because people are being biased and choosing Mikey because he happens to be their favorite.

My fave happens to be Leo, but I would still vote for Usagi if Laird says he's better than Leo. Even by a little bit.

Though I do wonder...

Seeing as the series is about the TMNT, and since Leo is the leading character of the series, it would make sense that he would win where as if it was an Usagi Yojimbo series that the TMNT guest starred in, the win would go to the leading character, Usagi.

Sewer Bull

11-29-2005, 12:28 PM

Letting Usagi win in TMNT series would be some kind of tribute paid to Stan Sakai by Peter Laird, methinks.

Hmm... 2/12/8... Mikey's rating has boosted up. Maybe he's going to surprisingly win that poll, as he won Battle Nexus.:lol:

Anarky

11-29-2005, 12:45 PM

Canon? I have never heard the word used this way. :ohwell:

"Canon (fiction), the body of works that are considered to be "genuine" or "official" within a certain fictional universe. In many instances, it's mistaken for 'cannon', which has of course an entirely different meaning." - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_%28fiction%29)

An easy example of canon and non-canon would be the following.

Canon
Leonardo
Raphael
Donatello
Michelangelo
Splinter
Usagi

Non-canon
Benvenuto
Iron Fist
Leonardo the second
raphsgirl's character
...

Seeing as the series is about the TMNT, and since Leo is the leading character of the series, it would make sense that he would win where as if it was an Usagi Yojimbo series that the TMNT guest starred in, the win would go to the leading character, Usagi.

Uhm... this is getting a tad self-contradictory. In the other thread you go all "Look at the facts" and now you try to interpret the facts in a new way. I'd stick with your first view on things.

And just because it's the TMNT's toon doesn't mean they can't be defeated there. On the contrary, that makes them even more humane in my book. If they unbeatable, what would be the point of all the episode-watching we do and having emotional breakdowns when we see Mikey with only one arm?

longing for leo

11-29-2005, 01:12 PM

Usagi would win. Peter is one of the people who create canon, and that's a fact. Therefore, Leonardo would not win. Usagi would.
Hmm, but he's made changes before. I voted Leo, & not just cause he's my fav. I don't think that there's anything to suggest that Usagi has had more training than Leo. All we ever see Leo doing is train, & Usagi seems to be more of a guard or nomad or something (in this show). Plus, Leo's just so focused and intent on being the best that he can be...and better. It's likely that they are evenly matched skill wise, but it seems like Leo has more drive. Yes it would be predictable, which might be why he got poisoned. I admit, it would be very interesting to see Leo's reaction if he really had lost the turnament, proving to himself & everyone else that he's really not the best. Me thinks he'd be sulking for a while...Although, if one of his bros or even Usagi won, he'd probably swallow his pride/bitter feelings and show them nothing but support.

Hehe... this sounded almost like the people who still think that Harry Potter and Hermione Granger will end up in love, despite the fact, that Joan K. Rowling, the author (=canon) said that it would be Ron Weasley and Hermione. There is no arguing with canon.
Hey, watch who you're laughing at! :P Some of us simply wish that it would be, while admiting that JK is the boss. But...if you've seen the 4th movie, you've got to admit there were some touching moments/chemistry between those 2. I'm just saying it seems like they would work...but that's way off topic. It's not my fault! :D I was baited! ;) jk

Duke

11-29-2005, 01:18 PM

Why is Mikey even up their on the poll?:ohwell:
I included Mikey based on the fact that he was the actual winner. Although, I honestly can't believe 8 people voted for him.

Personally, I voted for Usagi even though I've never heard Laird say he is a better fighter and Leonardo is my favorite character. I took him based on the fact that he came there expecting to be in the tournament. Meaning he actually trained for it, while the turtles sort of just chanced into competing.

Anarky

11-29-2005, 03:10 PM

Hmm, but he's made changes before. I voted Leo, & not just cause he's my fav. I don't think that there's anything to suggest that Usagi has had more training than Leo. All we ever see Leo doing is train, & Usagi seems to be more of a guard or nomad or something (in this show). Plus, Leo's just so focused and intent on being the best that he can be...and better. It's likely that they are evenly matched skill wise, but it seems like Leo has more drive. Yes it would be predictable, which might be why he got poisoned. I admit, it would be very interesting to see Leo's reaction if he really had lost the turnament, proving to himself & everyone else that he's really not the best. Me thinks he'd be sulking for a while...Although, if one of his bros or even Usagi won, he'd probably swallow his pride/bitter feelings and show them nothing but support.

Liard might change canon sometime, but at the moment, the case is clear. Usagi would win. That's what canon says and that's how it is. There simply is no arguing about that. Unless you want to accuse Laird of being an incompetent idiot who has no idea.

Ryona

11-29-2005, 06:09 PM

Uhm... this is getting a tad self-contradictory. In the other thread you go all "Look at the facts" and now you try to interpret the facts in a new way. I'd stick with your first view on things.

No, I'm not saying that Leo would beat everyone and be the winner just because he's the leading character. I'm just saying that between Leo and Usagi (who happen to be the greatest fighters in their own universe, not including their masters and arch nemesis), it could go either way depending on the series. If it's a TMNT series (which it is) the win would lean towards Leo, where as if it was an Usagi Yojimbo series, the win would lean towards Usagi.

Though we all know who the true winner should have been...

Splinter.

zkarlette

11-29-2005, 06:31 PM

Splinter had already won for sure:)

I think leo would win but I really like how Leo and Usagi work as a team

Duke

11-29-2005, 06:33 PM

I'm glad to see that Leonardo has almost caught up to Mikey.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-29-2005, 07:55 PM

No, I'm not saying that Leo would beat everyone and be the winner just because he's the leading character. I'm just saying that between Leo and Usagi (who happen to be the greatest fighters in their own universe, not including their masters and arch nemesis), it could go either way depending on the series. If it's a TMNT series (which it is) the win would lean towards Leo, where as if it was an Usagi Yojimbo series, the win would lean towards Usagi.

Though we all know who the true winner should have been...

Splinter.

I really don't think that would be the case. I mean, even Laird reconizes how skilled Usagi is, and he knows when you look at the facts, Usagi is more skilled and disceplind than the TMNT. Yes I do think Leo could beat Usagi....If he trains harder.

And yes, if Splinter didn't concede to Mikey, he would have won again, but that really wouldn't be fair to the TMNT, seeing is how it was their chance to win.

Turtle Dove

11-29-2005, 08:01 PM

i love Leo- but Usagi looks like he would of won. Mikey won by dumb luck then won again cause Leo trained him-so maybe Leo woulda won?

Duke

11-29-2005, 08:08 PM

Is anyone else hoping the show actually gives us a New Nexus tournament so we can get a real answer to this question?

Turtle Dove

11-29-2005, 08:38 PM

Is anyone else hoping the show actually gives us a New Nexus tournament so we can get a real answer to this question?

a 3rd one? I can see MIkey screaming as he runs away.

Duke

11-29-2005, 10:37 PM

a 3rd one?Unfortunately I missed Grudge Match but I thought it was only a rematch not a whole new tournament.

Jester

11-29-2005, 10:50 PM

iris

11-30-2005, 11:35 AM

The fact that Mikey has got any votes period is ridiculous. I seriously doubt Leo or Usagi would have been as generous towards Mikey as Splinter was and just give him the win.
I'm not sure why Mikey was put on the poll, but I think he does belong there.

Here is my ever-so logical rationale: Winning was Mikey's destiny.

Not your ordinary, run-of-the-mill cosmic destiny, mind you, but a more powerful form: the will of the writers.

IMO, Usagi could beat the crap outta Leo and Mike, and probably be a real challenge to Splinter's title, but it wouldn't have happened even if Usagi had continued the tournament. Having Mikey win was just too perfect. They took the opportunity to enforce what we know intuitively, which is that Mike may have as much potential as any of his brothers... but he's just not as interested. While Usagi and Leo are awesome, Mikey's success was fun to witness.

Buslady

11-30-2005, 12:17 PM

It'd be Leo..it's ALWAYS Leo...even we know Usagi is a better trained warrior.

Fledermaus

11-30-2005, 12:25 PM

I voted Usagi....cause he is the most dedicated and seems to trump Leo in skill...but have we looked at why Laird and Lloyd made Mikey the victor in the first place? We all assume Mikey's a slacker, that in a fight that he might not defend himself like the uber-dedicated Leonardo. They wrote Mikey as the winner to show that any TMNT, in the right environment could shine in a fight...Mikey, under the influence of the shouting crowd, finally found the attention he seems to long for, and thus fought with more consentration so as not to lose that rush of the crowd....It was his environment to shine in...and he did....end of story.

Hmm... in that case, even though I think Usagi is more skilled than Leo, Old Fearless has been shown capable of psychotic determination--Leo's relentless will (plus other lucky circumstances) might help him defeat someone like Usagi.

Oh wait. DUH. Of COURSE Leo would win, even though Usagi is probably better skilled than he. Anyone ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?" Exactly.

iris

11-30-2005, 02:10 PM

It'd be Leo..it's ALWAYS Leo...
And since it's always Leo, it couldn't be Leo, and wasn't. Because Leo is an eternal paradox. He's deep, man. Real deep.

(:P Actually, because it would have been a tad predictable.)

Oh wait. DUH. Of COURSE Leo would win, even though Usagi is probably better skilled than he. Anyone ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?" Exactly.
:lol: *dies of laughter*

Ryona

11-30-2005, 02:17 PM

Oh wait. DUH. Of COURSE Leo would win, even though Usagi is probably better skilled than he. Anyone ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?" Exactly.

Oh, man! I never thought of that! That was brilliant. :lol:

IceFlash78

11-30-2005, 02:59 PM

Question... how do we really know that Usagi or Leo would even make the final two? There's so many ways that the contest could have gone, so many matchups that could have been possible.

I think it would have been obivous that either Usagi or Leo would ahve made into the top 4 if they had fought different opponents, but not both. Both of them were matched up against each other, so one of them would have lost. I'm going to say that Usagi would have won their matchup, but I don't know how he would ahve done in his next match. How would have he done against the Rhino guy, or any of the other fighers?

There's no way to know without replaying the Battle Nexus again and having Leo and Usagi match up again.

heretic888

12-02-2005, 09:08 AM

I'm gonna go against the grain here and vote for Mikey.

Why??

Well, there are subtle little things from the show, of course. When the TMNT originally went to the underground city to investigate the crystals, all of them but Michelangelo were defeated by the Atlantean controlling the city. He's also, apparently, head-and-shoulders above Raphael, as we've been shown more than once. I also find it interesting that, unlike the others, the writers have never shown Michelangelo sparring one-on-one with Leonardo. That, at the very least, is very telling.

There's of course outside information, such as that from the original FoxBox website or the Palladium TMNT RPG, where it is made abundantly clear that Mike is far and away the most talented and physically capable of the four brothers (even though he doesn't train as hard). In the Palladium RPG, there is twice the difference between Mike and Leo's Physical Prowess (24 and 20, respectively) scores as there is between Leo and Raph's (20 and 18, respectively).

There's also the fact that, unlike most of the other posters on there, I actually know a thing or two about the martial arts. The charming storefront pseudo-budo that characters like Leonardo and Usagi emanate may impress most people, but it evokes little more than a casual chuckle out of me. Trust me when I say this, but somebody like Michelangelo understands and expresses the budo spirit far more than a no-nonsense workaholic like Leonardo. Of course, I'm sure all the rapid Leo fans with zero experience in the martial arts will chew me out for that, but anybody with some serious downtime in real budo will just casually shrug their shoulders and nod their heads.

Plus, the simple truth of the matter is, who would win in the Battle Nexus here! Just look at how the aforementioned characters fought in the tournament. Look at how they moved, the strategies and tactics they used, the feeling they fought with. Just sit back and look for a second. Forget Leo and Usagi, nobody in the tournament (with the notable exception of Splinter) even came close to operating on the level that Mikey did in his final match of the tournment or in his successive rematch with Kluh.

Just look at how he fought, its as simple as that.

Plus, Leonardo in his current "angry" state would get owned in a matter of seconds. Methinks he should go back and review his Musashi, as he's clearly missing a lot of what the eminent kengo had to say.

Laterz.

Ryona

12-02-2005, 11:40 AM

I must say, that was a very well writen biased post, Heretic. You never fail to amuse me. *applauds* :lol:

Leonardo Mystic

12-02-2005, 07:52 PM

:roll: Even I don't put Leonardo that high on a pedestal, and I love the guy to death.

I'll give kudos and credit to Mikey in "Grudge Match" because he really did come through there in the end, and kicked major ass. However, in the "Big Brawl" episodes, he only won by technicalities, and basically luck. Splinter conceded his battle to his son, which was touching and allowed him to advance. Then Michelangelo goaded Raph into knocking himself out in a wall, and never once fought. I think Mike was scared his older brother would actually beat him, so he used psychology on him. Clever, but I felt it was also dirty and underhanded.

Final match between him and Kluh was interrupted with the Drako/UN crap, so there was no real fight between them then. The only reason Mikey won was because after pulling his stuck nunchuck free from the concrete, it snapped back, and hit Kluh square in the head, which thus caused him to be KO'd. It was sheer luck he happened to be standing behind him. So Mike's win there was by a technicality.

I'm not dissing Michelangelo by any means. Though he's my least favorite, he does add light in their otherwise dismal lives. It'd be rather sad without him around to cheer them up in rough times. The guy has his strong points as they all do. He can really shine when he puts his mind to it, but see, therein lies the problem. He can easily be up to Raph's or even close behind Leo's level, but he's not motivated to do so. He mainly takes it with a kind of laid-back attitude. In the current season, Mikey's starting to step up, and he's being noticed for it. I am honestly pleased with his character's direction lately.

As for a match between Leo and Usagi, I think it'd be too close to really tell without seeing it played out. They are both very skilled swordsmen, dedicated, and disciplined. It could be noted that I did seem to think it appeared Usagi had a slight upperhand in their Battle Nexus match before they were prematurely eliminated.

Jester

12-02-2005, 10:06 PM

I just realized, Leo and Usagi faced eachother so in essence who ever won would knock the other out. Then we'd have the final 7 and whoever won the Leo/Usagi bout, so Raph, Mikey, Kluh, Gen, Zat, La, and Dieskrad (Thank you Official Site). It's posible that whoever won between Usagi and Leo would have had to fight Gen (who was odd man out and got a bye) and I'm sure they would take him, knocking him out. I see the Finals as....who knows. All I know is Usagi and Leo wouldn't be the end all bout, since they fought eachother in an earlier round.
EDIT: So, Raph lost to Mike....La to Dieskrad, Zat to Kluh. Final 4....Usagi/Leo vs. Kluh. Mikey vs. Dieskrad. in the end....it's Leo or Usagi vs. Mikey. Mikey might be able to take them, but I think he's toast...

IceFlash78

12-02-2005, 10:23 PM

I just realized....Leo and Usagi faced eachother....so in essence who ever won...would knock the other out. The we'd have the final 7 and whoever won the Leo/Usagi bout....so Raph, Mikey, Kluh, Gen, and the others....It's posible that whoever won would have had to fight Gen....and I'm sure they would take him....knocking him out....I see the Finals...who knows....All I know is Usagi and Leo wouldn't be the end all bout....since they fought eachother in an earlier round.

Exactly.... their match was still early in the tournament, and the matchups for the third round of the tournament could have gone any other way. Just because Mikey and Ralph was matched up doesn't mean they will always be matched up. Maybe Leo (if he won vs. Usagi) would have faced an opponent who would have knocked him out in the third round, and Mikey would still win the entire thing anyhow.

We cannot really tell who would ahve won the tournament unless we had a entirely new tournament, or replayed hte old tournament from the second round.

Jester

12-02-2005, 10:30 PM

Which I did....but It's all based on Usagi or Leo vs Gen and Kluh....and I think they'd win...but you never know, it could still be Mikey and Kluh, with Mikey coming out on top.

trexmaster

12-03-2005, 01:27 AM

I must say, that was a very well writen biased post, Heretic. You never fail to amuse me. *applauds*

That's all you have? An ad homein attack? :lol:

GK Punk

12-03-2005, 01:34 AM

That's all you have? An ad homein attack? :lol:

What's the point of this post, other than to start a fight?

Anarky

12-05-2005, 04:17 PM

Fledermaus

12-05-2005, 07:30 PM

Guys and gals, this thread is funny... I mean, you all go "Mikey this" and "Leo that" and "Usagi blah" and even "Kluh blurb". But you forget to pay attention to one little minor detail. Laird, the guy who says what canon is and does, said that Usagi would beat every Ninja Turtle. So why do you even bother thinking about who of the four would have won, when it's obvious that they sooner or later would have been taken out? To me, this seems like you go "Oh that Lahrt-guy, whoever he might be, said something, let's not pay attention to that.", you know, the canonrape-sorta-thing.

But then again, who gives a damn about canon anyways?

Now that I KNOW what you're talking about, I give much damn about canon. Always! Characters must stay true to themselves. Otherwise you get unprovoked drama, main character being able to take on someone who is obviously way out of his league, and other superfluous stuff....

iris

12-06-2005, 02:06 AM

Thus sayeth the Laird, eh Anarky? ;)

Well, blast, I still think Mikey would have finagled his way to the win. It was written in the stars, baby, and the Laird designed the firmament.

But you're right, what does he know, and what do we care? One character was named the mightiest. That makes him the rightiest. I mean, it's not like TMNT is about underdogs who work against seemingly insurmountable odds to...

... shucks, I lost my train of thought. Fledermaus has a really distracting avatar. What the heck, Fled? :lol:

TheGreenMagic

12-06-2005, 02:19 AM

Fledermaus

12-06-2005, 09:07 AM

Yes, that avatar has been catching my eye as well. Driving my positively batty (no pun intended). I know I've seen that character somewhere, but my memory is far to foggy to remember from where exactly...

I see my evil plan is working.:evilgrin: Bald sind wir alle verrückt!

I've been brain fried, electrified, infected and injectified...
Vivisectified... and fed pesticides
My face is all cut up cos my radar's all shot up.
Nurse, I need a check-up from the neck-up.
I'm---

the Fledermaus.:D

IceFlash78

12-06-2005, 09:16 AM

hahaha.... nice one Fled...

Yes... i do think we all need a heavy doses of psychotic bat and mininaturized-human/fairy love to teach us all about the evils of technology. :lol:

Anyways, Anarky, I do realize that Laird said that Usagi would trump all of the turtles easily, and I accept that as canon. However, it does not mean that any of the turtles would not be able to win the Battle Nexus. It just means that Usagi would definately defeat Leonardo, but what about after that? Would Usagi defeat his next opponent or be defeated? Usagi could ahve faced off against Kluh and lost or maybe against some other opponent that he couldn't handle, and Mikey would still win the Battle Nexus.

Just because Usagi would defeat Leonardo in their match does not necessarily mean that Usagi will win the entire Battle Nexus tournament.