Leo vs Raph - Outcome

[jezza]

Just to cause contraversy :evilgrin: I have decided to create a poll on to gather peoples opinions on the outcome of Leo and Raphs fight. Who do you think deserved to win? Who was in the right or wrong?

Go

[triplexxx]

They were both right and wrong. They were both too self-righteous, But they were both making good use of their year apart. It's just that simply being apart is what boosted their egos & provoked this fight in the first place. If splinter had never have separated them in the first place, this never would've happened.

[CJStyles]

Will you get off your Splinter's to blame theory lol

[triplexxx]

Will you get off your Splinter's to blame theory lol
Why should I? I did the math, I applied the logic, and I've good reason to think he's to blame. Don't like it? Try and stop me.

[jezza]

For me I think Raph deserved to win as it would just put Leo in his place somewhat. After the comments Leo was putting forward, I thought they were a bit touchy for someone who is supposedly a leader.

I'm not usually as big fan of Raph losing his temper, it shows a form of weakness taking it out on other people. But in this case I felt it was more justified than it ever has been before.

[Rooish]

Why should I? I did the math, I applied the logic, and I've good reason to think he's to blame. Don't like it? Try and stop me.

I agree with you, triplexxx, but fortunately Splinter seemed a bit more oblivious to his actions in this movie than in previous versions. He was just a jolly old man. He probably didn't understand fully the conflict it would cause.

[johnnyblaze]

he seemed convinced that they could work it out and just plain happy to have all of his sons back together again. plus he did realize that something was wrong with Raph, and kept pushing Leo to mend the team he is supposed to lead. I bet however that he didn't think it would get to the point where the 2 would beat each other up

[Tansut]

I don't really think there was any blame to be put on anyone, it was just an inevitable sibling fight. Leo, after having been gone for so long, was simply trying to live up to Splinter's expectations and not disappoint while Raph was frustrated that the city wasn't being protected and that they still weren't doing anything about it.

Initially I thought the "I'm better than you" comment by Leo was a bit of a putdown, but really it's just Leo getting to the point of why he's the leader. He was tired of Raph not listening and so he put it bluntly, maybe too bluntly. I also think Leo won the fight, but he stopped in shock once his katanas were broken. You could see him thinking "Whoa...he broke them?" right before he was knocked down because he wasn't expecting Raph to go that far, because at that point Raph was just in a rage and wasn't seeing Leo as Leo, but as the target of all his anger and hate.

Whatever ya think, I think we all can agree that was a fantastic sequence.

[Mr. Arctic]

i posted this on imdb in a forum with a similar discussion:
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you guys are all wrong. that scene plays subtly but brilliantly, and its easy to miss the little details and nuances of the drama and subtext in the dialogue and animation.

***SPOILERS***



in truth, leo knew exactly what he was doing. he was provoking raph because he knew that the only way he could get through to him was through his anger. saying something so arrogant was a way of leo speaking to raph "in his own language"-- which, to me, indicates that it wasn't really intended to be arrogant, but to provoke and prove a point. the source of tension between raph and leo all these years (aside from their naturally clashing personality types) has been that raph is jealous that splinter chose leo as leader and not him.

raph took leo's "i'm better than you" to be a challenge to his fighting skills-- leo knew he would because raph is a hothead and his solution to everything is fighting.

but the whole purpose of the fight was for leo to prove to raph how impulsive and driven by anger he is, and that is why he is incapable of being a leader.

it is also clear that leo gave up the fight to prove a point because he wanted raph to see what he was doing: dividing the turtles. leo obviously had the upper hand in the fight before, and he also knew that his swords were gonna break. by giving up the fight, leo was basically saying, "it doesn't matter who is better individually because we're a team"-- and thats why raph runs away: because he realizes leo's point, because he is ashamed for fighting his brother (who was never truly trying to beat him), and that he has been the source of the problem.

by the end of the fight, raph realizes that when leo says "im better than you", he really means that he is a better leader, not fighter.

all of this is proven true later when raph speaks to splinter and he says "i know why you picked him, now." this shows that raph understood exactly what leo was trying to prove by fighting him and then by giving up the fight by basically his point is: "it doesnt matter which of us is a better fighter, but it matters that we function as a team, and we each have our roles."

so we will never know who really is the better fighter, but we could speculate.

and just so people won't say that i'm saying this to hate on raph, i'm stating plainly that raph is actually my favorite turtle.


"Don't ever listen to anyone on IMDb except ChimpCadet."
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[Fledermaus]

I pretty much agree with Mr. Arctic's analysis, EXCEPT that I don't think Leo was expecting to be beaten. In the end though, he still managed to prove his point, despite the fact that he'd lost the physical fight -- I don't think he meant for it to happen.

One of the best face-offs I've ever seen in a movie, period.

[R-iZZy]

Mr. Arctic, that's a spot-on analysis of that scene. Perfectly put!

[TerranigmaFreak]

They should both stop fighting.

[johnnyblaze]

i'm sure there will still be disagreements in the future but the 2 really did seem like they reached each other after that brawl. there will definatly be some growth in their relationship

[Spitfire]

Raph needed to win. It hit Leo off his high horse. The line "I'm better then you" really showed Leo's true colors. Something I've waited awhile to hear him say. And Raph showed him whose boss.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Raph needed to win. It hit Leo off his high horse. The line "I'm better then you" really showed Leo's true colors. Something I've waited awhile to hear him say. And Raph showed him whose boss.

Well said dude. Leo needed Raph to knock some sense into him, at knock he did.


And triplexxx, would you give up this ridiculous anti-Splinter campaign of yours. Jesus, it's getting old.

[johnnyblaze]

plus I gotta say I loved the sick grin Raph had on his face when he pinned Leo down, compared to the look of dissapointment/sadness on Leo's face. Not to mention Raph looking at Leo face to face and that look of his suddenly turning into a look of sad realization

[johnnyblaze]

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

Because, like Raph said, when leo came back he just expected the other Turtles to fall in line again. He just expected everything to be like it was before with him in command, not taking the personal feelings of his brothers into account. He was too focused on being the perfect leader, and not enough on just being they're brother.

[johnnyblaze]

I still don't see how his expecting his brothers to listen to him is him being on a high horse but to each their own I guess

[Spitfire]

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

Leo was full of himself. he tracks down the Nightwatcher and acts like a bad ass in front of him trying to get him to stop being a hero. Like "This is my town and you can't fight crime here" Thats a spit in Raph's face because Raph had been keeping crime in check while Leo was gone*This is expressed alot in the game* so I'd be pissed to.

In the game though Leo calls Raph a criminal which pisses him off even more.

[johnnyblaze]

Don didn't like what the Nightwatcher was doing either--is he on a high horse too?Granted Don didn't get into a fight with him like Leo, but the feelings were mutual

[Phoenix Fire]

I think Splinter secretly has a high price life insurance policy on Leonardo. So its always, "Lead first Leonardo!", "Jump into that pit Leonardo!", "You don't need weapons to fight Shredder Leonardo!" and "Trust me and drink your glowing green tea Leonardo!" I smell a rat, a giant mutant rat...

[jezza]

Personally I saw nothing wrong with what the Nightwatcher was doing. Leo stated that the Nightwatcher doing everything by himself was a bad idea (Batman works alone though) and that it was the turtles' place to fight crime.

Who decided that? Surely there is no rule to say that the Turtles should have a territory to fight crime? That's similar to putting them into a category saying that it's gangland territory surely? Does Leo hold it against Casey for doing the same thing?

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I think Splinter secretly has a high price life insurance policy on Leonardo. So its always, "Lead first Leonardo!", "Jump into that pit Leonardo!", "You don't need weapons to fight Shredder Leonardo!" and "Trust me and drink your glowing green tea Leonardo!" I smell a rat, a giant mutant rat...

Maybe that also explains why Professor X is so rich.

[Aignatius]

What I don't understand is how come Casey recognized the Nightwatcher as Raph right away, but Leo didn't? Unless Leo knew and was just playing along? But his surprise looked genuine when he knocked Raph's helmet off... I'm kind of confused about that.

[vagrant718]

What I don't understand is how come Casey recognized the Nightwatcher as Raph right away, but Leo didn't? Unless Leo knew and was just playing along? But his surprise looked genuine when he knocked Raph's helmet off... I'm kind of confused about that.

probably because Casey have known of Raph going out in the night before he became nightwatcher and fighting crime seems like something he would do

[raphael_is_cool]

It was a fight they needed really. Leo needed to see he wasn't almighty and Raph needed to prove himself.

I was just a bit letdown that they didn't actually 'pay off' the idea so much, as it seemed Raph became the leader and did pretty good while Leo became the damsel in distress. I guess I kinda like the idea as it doesn't follow cheesy cliches and that theme will probably run through sequels if they're made.

[Rooish]

Mr. Arctic, I think that is a very insightful way to interpret that fight (although I, too, don't think Leo expected to "lose"--I mean, he didn't expect to get pinned down and have his swords broken; I would debate whether he actually lost in the end, as Raph conceded that Leo is the leader). However, as much as I love taking subtleties out of that fight, there is nothing in the script to indicate that Kevin intended such underlying motivations ... I think we're seeing something really genius that wasn't even intended.

TMTWBR, I like what you have to say usually, dude, but triplexxx can think whatever he/she (sorry, didn't check) about Splinter. As long as no one says "I'm definitely right and you're definitely wrong," I think we should be able to interpret what we want.

I must say that I agree that Leo's motives were weird there. The Turtles have been vigilantes all their lives. Besides being a grump, what did Raph do wrong? It broke my heart, though, when Leo knocked off Raph's helmet and he was like, "Raph? What?" and then Raph smashed him over.

[Spawn Guy]

Maybe that also explains why Professor X is so rich.
Everyone knows why Robin wears primary colors and Batman dosen't.

[Buslady]

If Raph had become such a problem why the @)(#* didn't Splinter take care of him in the first place!! Why did Splinter ALLOW them to become what they were while Leo was gone? Isn't he like, the boss? Hellooo...Leo may be Leader, Splinter is FATHER and SENSEI, he is the ultimate leader. Why did he rely on Leo to take care of the problem? Why couldn't HE deal with it? Too frail?
So then, he goes to watch soaps...seems like he was contributing to their laziness.
I would have liked to see some dojo training, sensei at the helm.

Because of this happening, shows sensei isn't the end all be all, he isn't perfect.

Ahh the wonders of the dysfunctional family of turtles and a rat...

[Spawn Guy]

Well, if Splinter did take care of it, there goes all our side plot.

[Buslady]

Well, if Splinter did take care of it, there goes all our side plot.
:D yeah I know. but it's fun to think about it.

IMO that was the main plot, to get the family back together.

[Spawn Guy]

Then why...oh.

And I agree, but what is 50% of the audience actually there for?

Other than an excuse to whine that the old toon was teh best evah111!1;)

[Warhorse]

I think it comes down to this. In a fight for honor, Leo will win. When Raph is fueled by his temper, Leo will win, because that temper is too short fused.

But, like I have seen in many incarnations, if Raph has deadly, pure hatred running threw his veins, he has the umph to take down just about anything. He's like an unstoppable locomotive, and I think he realized that when he had toppled Leo.

While this scene was riveting, someone mentioned it was heartbreaking too, and I think they were right. Leo feels unappreciated for his hard work to strive to be the best for Splinter, while Raphael tries to live in a world that he wants to be accepted in, but never will. Both are being punished mentally in a cruel way.

Who do I think deserved to win. I go for Raph. I think what he was doing was no different than what Leo was doing in the jungles of Brazil. How come one is allowed to be the hero of a village, but the other is scolded (or in Raph's words, lectured) for trying to help his home city?

[Time Mistress]

I loved that the movie fight had them pretty even. Still, the Raph fan in me couldn't help but vote for him.:)

[Fledermaus]

I think it comes down to this. In a fight for honor, Leo will win. When Raph is fueled by his temper, Leo will win, because that temper is too short fused.

But, like I have seen in many incarnations, if Raph has deadly, pure hatred running threw his veins, he has the umph to take down just about anything. He's like an unstoppable locomotive, and I think he realized that when he had toppled Leo.

While this scene was riveting, someone mentioned it was heartbreaking too, and I think they were right. Leo feels unappreciated for his hard work to strive to be the best for Splinter, while Raphael tries to live in a world that he wants to be accepted in, but never will. Both are being punished mentally in a cruel way.

Who do I think deserved to win. I go for Raph. I think what he was doing was no different than what Leo was doing in the jungles of Brazil. How come one is allowed to be the hero of a village, but the other is scolded (or in Raph's words, lectured) for trying to help his home city?

Nice analysis. I agree with it wholeheartedly. But right now, I don't want to add anything else cause I've already talked this scene to death.:D

[Time Mistress]

I agree too. Great anaylsis Warhorse. I already posted my feelings on the fight in another topic.

[blue_angel99]

Leo is in the right. He did what Splinter said in order to help his family not himself. Splinter may seem harsh and strict, but he has no choice. The turtles will always have to face danger in the human world and Splinter knows he won't be around forever to guide them. He chose Leo to take on that responsibility. Leo only stayed away 'cause he said that there was still something missing to complete his training.

If Raph really believed what he was doing was right, why hide it from his family? Leo has been given the responsibility to lead them, and Raph just makes it more difficult for things to get done right. When some challenges your authority, you need to put them back into their place... with love of coarse.

[Spawn Guy]

Because criminals are a suppositious and cowardly lot. Also, Nightwatcher is a public figure. Something Raph can't be.

[Rooish]

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.

Yeah.....you tell that to Warner Bros.

[Warhorse]

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.


I'd love it if the next movies got that dark. Heck, even maybe deal with some serial killer could be really wicked. Give it a SAW type twist, where the serial killer set up high tech traps and puzzles, and Donny could get the spotlight in trying to figure them out. But a serial killer, rapist or even a kidnapping might be too much for the franchise.

PS: Well, yeah, Raph's Nightwatcher was a public figure, but why was Leo going after a public most wanted vigilante, in his birthday suit? You'd think he'd have the common sense to disguise himself, knowing so many people were on the look out for The Nightwatcher. What if both were caught?

[Rooish]

Well, it's not so much that I need to see the R-rated stuff; it's more what I don't need to see. Which is robbers getting taught a lesson that will teach them nothing. But then the Turtles wouldnt have much to do except deal with sci-fi things, which are also obnoxious (to me), so I guess I shouldn't complain.

[twopinacoladas]

Normally I would want Leo to win and normally I would have thought he would have won. It reminds me of me and one of my younger bros, who is quite a bit more built then me (has about 60 lbs on me) he could toss me around pretty good now if he wanted to. With that said Leo was way to smug saying "cause Im better than you" I thought it was almost out of character but Raph showing Leo up surprised me. I like all the turtles I would normally lean slightly towards Mikey and Leo being favs but I dont really have a fav. I liked Raph in that movie you couldnt help but feel for him at certain points in the flick.

[Warhorse]

Normally I would want Leo to win and normally I would have thought he would have won. It reminds me of me and one of my younger bros, who is quite a bit more built then me (has about 60 lbs on me) he could toss me around pretty good now if he wanted to. With that said Leo was way to smug saying "cause Im better than you" I thought it was almost out of character but Raph showing Leo up surprised me. I like all the turtles I would normally lean slightly towards Mikey and Leo being favs but I dont really have a fav. I liked Raph in that movie you couldnt help but feel for him at certain points in the flick.


I really loved Raph in here. Sure, he has his problems like everyone else, but he's certaintly not a bad guy.

And he is such the protector. Liked how he used his body as a shield for Casey when they were being shot at. I felt really sad seeing Raph fight off the tranquelizers all he could.
And then he had just had that mind blowing fight with Leo. I can imagine he would have had that out of body type of experience, which is pribably whu he ran and was confused, but the second he heard Leo scream, Raph was out to help Leo the best he could, but was too late, and Raph's scream towards the van that took Leo reminds me alot of the scream Raph bellowed when they realized Splinter had been kidnapped in the first movie.

Raph owned this movie. I feel bad that the others keep getting shafted, but I wonder, would Mikey and Don they have what it takes to carry a full length feature film? I definitely agree that they are much underused in this film. But Raph and Leo, they attract your attention because they just do.

I dunno, I feel glad that my favorite Turtle shined like a beacon in the night sky in this movie, but guilty that the other two didn't get the justification that was needed.

But I do think this Leo is far better than the Leo I have seen in the other movies, and about equal to the Leo portrayed in the 2k3 toon.

[Masked Ninja]

To put things in context first:

Leonardo was once my favorite turtle... before I stopped being able to choose. But since his personality is a lot like mine, I'll probably always favor him a little over Raph. I just understand his motivations a bit more. I'm also the eldest of three, so I've even shared his role a bit in my life.

That said, this fight was great because I think both Turtles were justified. Raph thinks Leo is being cocky because he just got back from intensive training and is being pretty pushy about gathering his family back around him. Leo thinks Raph is being irrational and selfish by disobeying Splinter's orders just to go out and be a "showboating vigilante." He also is peeved because he sacrificed a lot of his time in order to better himself and his leadership for the team, and Raph doesn't seem to appreciate that. Of course, Leo got a little self-absorbed himself (as we saw in the beginning of the film).

And that's what I loved about it. They were BOTH right, and I understood both of their motivations. They also were BOTH wrong in certain ways. This is why I think this was probably the best Leonardo to date, because unlike the previous movies and even the old 'toon, he had a strong enough personality. I honestly think he's just as stubborn as Raph, but has better self-control. But unlike the 2k3 toon, he was shown to have serious faults (though his season 4 freakout was very appreciated by yours truly). Even on a good day, Leo is a little arrogant. It'd be hard not to be, when you are the most dedicated to training and explicitly selected as leader over the others. (which I don't think has ever been directly acknowledged in any other medium... he leads in the old toon, but is there evidence that Splinter directly appointed him? The movies and new toon have Leo as the unofficial leader - the others joke/whine about it but he seems to lead because he naturally does so. I don't know enough about the comics, maybe he leads officially there?)

*cough* Anyways. I keep getting sidetracked. I'll get to the meat of this.

While both Turtles (IMO) had good reasons to be ticked off, I think Raph winning was the best way to solve their problem. Coming back to his senses as he was crouched over his brother and ready to strike a killing blow was a wakeup call. He may be a disagreeable SOB at times, but Raph is no brother-killer, and what he was about to do slapped his major flaw in his face...hard. He also understood why Leo was more suited to lead, because allowing yourself to become blind like that is no help to anyone. Leo's line "you're not ready!" made sense to him then.

Consider what would have happened if Leo had won. Since he's great at keeping his cool, there would have been no "oh crud, what have I done?!" moment because he would merely have got Raph where he obviously couldn't continue the fight. MAYBE if he accidentally hurt Raph pretty bad it would be there (and in any case he would probably deal with some guilt internally) but my imagination sees Leo standing over Raph with a smug "I told you so" smile on his face. I love Leo, but I can see him being smug like that, no problem. And how would that have helped anything? Raph would just be humiliated, which would make him angrier, and any continued superiority from his big brother would certainly not make him any more inclined to follow, as it would inspire NO respect.

Raph winning is the only way it would have worked out, and I was glad to see it happen.

One last point I want to make: watch the "Who said I wanted to be led?" clip again. Notice how Leo sounds heated in his accusations right until he's about to drop the bomb, and he gets creepily calm. I think until that point his complaints were wholehearted, and then he was gathering for something hurtful. Not because he really meant it, but because he wanted to show Raph how ticked off his was about the situation and finally get a reaction. I've done the same thing (sad to say) in arguments with my own siblings back in the day. When your real accusations don't seem to sway them, you get mad enough to shoot off something that might be close to the truth but is really meant to get a reaction, because at that point your anger has reached its peak and you feel like provoking your opponent into a physical fight to drain off that anger.

It was probably a blessing for Leo to have been asleep in the cage, because the regret would have come fast and it would have hurt. He'll still have to suffer that, but luckily Raph had already forgiven him by the time he was rescued.

Dang, I should shut up. Hope that drivel was interesting to someone. :trazz:

[Fledermaus]

It was interesting to me, MN! Another great analysis!:D

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Dang, I should shut up. Hope that drivel was interesting to someone. :trazz:

Do go on, Masked Ninja. Your analyses are always insightful and thought-provoking. They're never a dull read. :D

[Willis]

Very well written, Masked Ninja.

I can respect if this did have some secret message delt from Leo to Raph. I'd have to hear it from the horses mouth to accept it, I suppose. It may have finished that way but I don't think it started that way.

See lets take two steps backwards and remember when Leo came into the scene. Through the entire movie Leo is talking smack about the NightWatcher. And when they finally meet up, what does Leonardo do? Lecture and talk smack. When Raph is revealed, what does Leo do? Begin to lecture..again.. But Raphael shuts him up for a second using his fist. Giving Raph the chance to talk.

That whole argument between Leonardo an Raphael - Never once does Raph make a comment on why he is or is not the leader of a team. But Raph wanting to be allowed to make his own decisions about what he can and cannot do.

This I see as best when Leonardo cries out "I was training to be a better leader.. for you! Why do you hate me for that?" Does Raph say "yeah, I hate you!" , or does he say "well why do YOU have to be the leader?".. no.. he argues about why HE even has to have a leader.

Thats when Leo chimes in about Raph's weaknesses and the famous "I'm better." Comment. I just can't see that being about ANYTHING but who was the stronger fighter.

[jenna]

Hi there! I am new here and scared because I am technically inept and not sure if I'm posting correctly, but here goes...

I agree with Masked Ninja and would like to add a thought:

Leo and Raph are fighting about more than just leadership. Raphael is resentful of Leonardo for going away and feels rejected that he stayed away and forgot about his family - he moved on whilst the others had to stay and this has increased his anger with Leo. Splinter knows this and even said to Leo that his absence had been hard for Raph and that Leo should take steps to mend the damage. Leo, however, takes no action to talk to him, buckles at the first sign of hostility (which if he knows his brother at all, should tell him something is wrong) and then tries to place blame when Splinter challenges him on it. As Raph overheard Splinter's conversation with Leo, he is angry that Leo doesn't make an effort with him and this fuels his anger in the fight.

With regards to the leadership issue, it's an easy excuse to fight over it because Raph doesn't like to take orders, especially from the brother he historically competed with for the role of leader, but the real problem (in my opinion) is that Raphael has never been able to distinguish between Splinter the teacher and Splinter the father. He doesn't say to Splinter "I know why you picked him, why he's the leader and I'm not", he says: "I know why you picked him, why he's the BETTER SON and I'm not." Raph's resentment of Leo's leadership is a perversion of the original resentment born by having perceived that by selecting Leo as the leader, Splinter was declaring him the favourite.... more cause for anger: rejection.

I think this is why Leo's "I'm better than you" comment touches a nerve which makes Raph attack. He then runs away when he realises how close he was to killing his brother whom, despite the fact that he is displacing all of his hatred onto him, Raphael loves. He cannot face Leo whilst he recognises this. When he speaks to Splinter later, saying "I know why you picked him", I do not think this is a comment on Leo's appropriateness for leader, moreover Raphael's inappropriateness.

[Brandatello]

yeah...like in the episode tales of leo raph says "i always thought i would be leader, i was toughest, bravest..."and it fades to the flash back were leo saves raph from an alligator. then he starts to cry. so i think raph really loves his brothers but hides it with anger..like the time were he almost kills mikey with a pipe.

[PrivateRadio]

hey, couple things

1) I think the reason Leonardo was worried about Nightwatcher was that he was becoming too much of a public figure, and making people worry about that sort of thing being a danger to the city. The same sort of thing the Turtles (and Casey) do and/or have done. That and I feel like it must have had to do with how bad Raphael was wrecking these dudes.

2) I think the film pretty much implied that Leonardo stopped fighting all out once it was revealed that it was Raph. In his fighting, his facial expressions and everything. Even in the warning shot with the katana. It's pretty clear that he doesn't want to really hurt his brother, especially after the housing he gave the Nightwatcher. The movie plainly implies Leonardo is the strongest fighter (as it always has been) and I think in part that's even one of the reasons that side-fight between him and Karai happens where he never even takes out his swords. (that by the way made me giddy as all hell) I'm not gonna go as far as to say Leonardo let Raph win as part of his plan, but letting himself get laid out like that when the swords broke and what Raph says to Splinter does sorta reach for that.

this is getting a little too long winded. Watching the movie, I thought it was clear that Leo's whole mentality changed when the fight started, and the movie was TRYING to show that.

That said, loved the scene, and the part where Raph is watching Leo through the helmet ("Oh my god, he's lecturing!") is one of the best, most overlooked jokes in the movie.

[triplexxx]

My interpretation is pretty simple: they went up against each other because their egos got the better of them, neither were trying to kill each other but just to pin the other down (though Raphael may have wanted to do a little more damage), and they both had a lesson to learn from it all.

Leonardo's lesson: protecting/watching over the family was not solely his responsibility and he wasn't as almighty as he thought and he needed his brother.

Raphael's lesson: he wasn't as independent or almighty as he thought he was and sincerely needed his brother too.

This is why they tell each other later in the final battle after Leonardo is rescued they need one another

[Buslady]

That said, loved the scene, and the part where Raph is watching Leo through the helmet ("Oh my god, he's lecturing!") is one of the best, most overlooked jokes in the movie.


Believe me, this hasn't been forgotten by me. I loved that line. I'd be saying the same damn thing...

[Rooish]

Hi there! I am new here and scared because I am technically inept and not sure if I'm posting correctly, but here goes...

I agree with Masked Ninja and would like to add a thought:

Leo and Raph are fighting about more than just leadership. Raphael is resentful of Leonardo for going away and feels rejected that he stayed away and forgot about his family - he moved on whilst the others had to stay and this has increased his anger with Leo. Splinter knows this and even said to Leo that his absence had been hard for Raph and that Leo should take steps to mend the damage. Leo, however, takes no action to talk to him, buckles at the first sign of hostility (which if he knows his brother at all, should tell him something is wrong) and then tries to place blame when Splinter challenges him on it. As Raph overheard Splinter's conversation with Leo, he is angry that Leo doesn't make an effort with him and this fuels his anger in the fight.

With regards to the leadership issue, it's an easy excuse to fight over it because Raph doesn't like to take orders, especially from the brother he historically competed with for the role of leader, but the real problem (in my opinion) is that Raphael has never been able to distinguish between Splinter the teacher and Splinter the father. He doesn't say to Splinter "I know why you picked him, why he's the leader and I'm not", he says: "I know why you picked him, why he's the BETTER SON and I'm not." Raph's resentment of Leo's leadership is a perversion of the original resentment born by having perceived that by selecting Leo as the leader, Splinter was declaring him the favourite.... more cause for anger: rejection.

I think this is why Leo's "I'm better than you" comment touches a nerve which makes Raph attack. He then runs away when he realises how close he was to killing his brother whom, despite the fact that he is displacing all of his hatred onto him, Raphael loves. He cannot face Leo whilst he recognises this. When he speaks to Splinter later, saying "I know why you picked him", I do not think this is a comment on Leo's appropriateness for leader, moreover Raphael's inappropriateness.

Very good point there. I think Leo was less sensitive than he could have been. He basically just got defensive right away. In the novelization, Leo did try to talk to Raph.

[jenna]

Very good point there. I think Leo was less sensitive than he could have been. He basically just got defensive right away. In the novelization, Leo did try to talk to Raph.

Yeah he did - and I was sorry to see that scene cut. It was one of the good ones.

[Willis]

Believe me, this hasn't been forgotten by me. I loved that line. I'd be saying the same damn thing...

I don't promote the use of YouTube like this but... it does have it's moments for discussion sake.
The sound is not that great but I found this clip of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wD27S58FHw

And ya know I stand corrected.. For some reason I remembered Leo getting hit in the face, not a mid kick.

[jenna]

I don't promote the use of YouTube like this but... it does have it's moments for discussion sake.
The sound is not that great but I found this clip of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wD27S58FHw

And ya know I stand corrected.. For some reason I remembered Leo getting hit in the face, not a mid kick.

Haha I like the way Leo gives a lecture on anger management!

That is pure hatred in Raphael's eyes when he snaps those katanas!

[Masked Ninja]

Good points, jenna!

And yeah, I loved the "is he lecturing?!" quip from Raph. Reminded me of the "monologuing" dig in The Incredibles, but with a Turtles twist. :D

[Time Mistress]

What's funny about the lecturing comment is that in the novelization it aslo says that Raph's helmet was damaged in the Jersey Devil fight to the point he could barely hear Leo with it on anyway.

Great analysis MN and Jenna. I'm enjoying it.

[Revan]

I felt it interesting how the fight played out. Although it appears that Raph wins the fight, isn't it a tie considering they both win a round. Leo knocks Raph/Nwatcher down. Round 1 = Leo.

Then Raph breaks Leo's katana. round 2 = Raph

To me, it's a cop out. Still no clear superior fighter.

[Warhorse]

What's funny about the lecturing comment is that in the novelization it aslo says that Raph's helmet was damaged in the Jersey Devil fight to the point he could barely hear Leo with it on anyway.

Great analysis MN and Jenna. I'm enjoying it.


Raph barely did know what Leo was saying. He just saw that frown on Leo's face and the lips start to move to know Leo was lecturing him. I thought it was funny, showing that the brothers do know eachother pretty well, considering one was away for a year.

[jenna]

I felt it interesting how the fight played out. Although it appears that Raph wins the fight, isn't it a tie considering they both win a round. Leo knocks Raph/Nwatcher down. Round 1 = Leo.

Then Raph breaks Leo's katana. round 2 = Raph

To me, it's a cop out. Still no clear superior fighter.

I reckon that really it is Leo's unspoken victory, given that he was obviously holding back once he knew the Nightwatcher was Raph. There were a number of times in that fight that he could have seriously hurt him, but chose not to. Raph, however, was more vicious throughout, only pulling back when he realised how lost he'd become in his anger.

[Rooish]

Someone posted a very smart analysis of the fight on Superhero Hype! Boards, arguing that Leo truly won. I don't think either brother "won," but this is a pretty convincing analysis. At any rate, I think the fight was done in the best way possible to please both Leo and Raph fans. (Unless Leo had lost his temper and almost killed Raph instead, thereby realising he wasn't so perfect and was like his brother in a lot of ways, and not "better" than him.)

Anyway the post is here: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268855
Go to page 2 and scroll down to the post by Fanged-Hunter.

[Revan]

Someone posted a very smart analysis of the fight on Superhero Hype! Boards, arguing that Leo truly won. I don't think either brother "won," but this is a pretty convincing analysis. At any rate, I think the fight was done in the best way possible to please both Leo and Raph fans. Unless Leo had lost his temper and almost killed Raph instead, thereby realising he wasn't so perfect and was like his brother in a lot of ways, and not "better" than him.

Anyway the post is here: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268855
Go to page 2 and scroll down to the post by Fanged-Hunter.

Edit: Nevermind, the link is not working right now. Hm. Any ideas?

Link worked for me. That was a great analysis! This scene could not have been done any better as far as I'm concered. Leo simply let Raph do things his way and Raph discovered that his way is the wrong way. Leo is a true leader. He had to improvise to figure a way to show Raph his errors.

[Rooish]

Oh, I'm glad it works.

[jenna]

That analysis on that link was really astute and raised some really good thoughts. Thanks, Rooish!

[Cassidy]

I dunno... I don't think Leo intended to lose the physical fight. But what got me was how eerily calm he seemed to be while their weapons were locked.

I'm gonna say that Raph won the physical fight just through sheer rage and strength, but Leo won the psychological fight (though not in the manner he intended, I believe). The little 'ah-hah' light went off for Raph, though almost too late. He could have seriously injured or killed his brother.

And on another note, I'm going to agree with what some others have said in this thread. That if Leo HAD won the physical fight, the relationship would have remained the same. Raph would have been humiliated, and he would have been less inclined to "fall in line." The intense anger would still be within him, festering until another confrontation occurred.

However, I will say I would have preferred a tie, just because I hate to see Leo beaten by one of his brothers.

[MAESTAS]

That was crazy! I thought that Leo's swords were unbreakable. Raph has a bad temper.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Raph has a bad temper.

:snorts: That's putting it mildly....:lol:

[Spawn Guy]

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.

So...he should just ignore it?

To clarify, and possibly spoil me a little but no big deal, is Raph going out of line in how he deals with crime fighting sans his brothers? Does he differentiate as Nightwatcher between how he would deal with crime of that level and normal street crime?

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

So...he should just ignore it?

To clarify, and possibly spoil me a little but no big deal, is Raph going out of line in how he deals with crime fighting sans his brothers? Does he differentiate as Nightwatcher between how he would deal with crime of that level and normal street crime?

Honestly, the novelization made that scene seem a little more graphic than it actually turned out to be. It was quite tame (for Raph). He fought criminals with about the same gusto as he would any Foot Ninja. He did stalk them a little, though...

[esco]

2) I think the film pretty much implied that Leonardo stopped fighting all out once it was revealed that it was Raph. In his fighting, his facial expressions and everything. Even in the warning shot with the katana. It's pretty clear that he doesn't want to really hurt his brother, especially after the housing he gave the Nightwatcher. The movie plainly implies Leonardo is the strongest fighter (as it always has been) and I think in part that's even one of the reasons that side-fight between him and Karai happens where he never even takes out his swords. (that by the way made me giddy as all hell) I'm not gonna go as far as to say Leonardo let Raph win as part of his plan, but letting himself get laid out like that when the swords broke and what Raph says to Splinter does sorta reach for that.

This is exactly what I've been thinking the entire time. Leo was practically untouchable vs. Nightwatcher. The were both hit once but Nightwatcher attacked a lot more yet Nightwatcher was the one lifted... Now after seeing that he (Leo) was fighting Raph, he obviously was shocked, not only at seeing that Raph was the Nightwatcher and he was just fighting his own brother... but also that his brother was just fighting him, knowing so... and Leo didn't want to fight Raph. There was a big difference between Leo saying "Trust me, you don't want to do this" to the Nightwatcher and saying "Don't do this Raph" to, well, Raph.

Leo's words ("I'm better") were, IMO, a reaction to Raph's. If you notice, before they took part in the fight with the 1st monster, Mike makes a comment about Leo being the "fearless leader" and Leo was about to say something but Raph interrupted him. During the Leo/Raph fight... Raph is talking about "mighty and powerful Leonardo" and Leo has this look on his face like "What!?". We have to remember that Leo does what Splinter says and believes in Splinter blah blah blah. So he was basically telling Raph, "You do need me to lead you because I'm more qualified (better), not because I think I'm the sh*t, but because Splinter appointed me".

So the fight seemed a bit more even compared to Leo vs. Nightwatcher (IMO, because Leo held back... a little). But if you look at the part where Leo kicks Raph under that sign, he clearly could have killed Raph there, you know when his sword is thrusted near Raph's head. The first time I saw the fight I thought Raph dodged the attack but he didn't... Leo missed purposely. And I'm not trying to say that Leo knew his swords were going to break an let Raph win, but I think the reason Raph didn't drive his Sai into Leo's face was because he knew what Leo did. Maybe...

edit: It was like they were playing ball to 10 and Leo spot Raph 9. Final score 10-9 Raph. j/k

[heretic888]

I have to jump on to the "Leo really won" bandwagon here.

In my opinion, Leonardo allowed Raphael to "win" in order to make him realize what he was doing was wrong. It was pretty clear that Leo had been dominating most of the fight beforehand. But, when it was apparent Raph wasn't going to back down, Leo allowed his brother to "beat" him so he could come to his senses for himself.

That's how it looks from my perch, anyway.

[Laurael]

After reading all the posts about this and watching the clip again, it's quite simple, really.
I think the real question should have been, 'Who needed to win this fight'. We all know the answer to that one.
I agree that as soon as Leo (as much as I love Raph) found out that Nightwatcher was Raph...he held back. The 'sword to the neck and then stopping' (Raph even had time to make a face) testifies to that, really.

[Warhorse]

But in the book, Leo was actually shocked to have lost to Raphael, he got cocky and thought he could manage Raphael's anger himself, using brute force, and well, Raphael's brute force is far more stronger and deadlier than Leo's.

Did Leo hold back, maybe, but not on purpose. But I don't think Raph was giving it his all in the Nightgwatcher vs Leo stage either.

Raph was pretty wicked with those sais though, he is just as much as a master over his own weapon as much as Leo is with his katanas.

[Sanjuro]

Its simple. Leo lost to Raph. Raphael is the stronger of the two turtles who's weakness is his anger which clouds his leadership skills according to Splinter in various versions of the TMNT. For this reason is why Raphael is the unoffical leader of the TMNT.

Now lets take the turtles out of it. Put two fighters of equal or slightly greater strength. The whole purpose of the sai is to disable a katana and/or break it. I love how this was included into the outcome of the fight and gives this film a more accurate usage of the turtles Japanese weapons.

[johnnyblaze]

I love what they say to each other when all is said and done:

Raph-(hands him his swords)"Your going to need these if your gonna lead us out of here"
Leo-"I'm gonna need you too"

that fight helped both turtles gain new found respect for each other

[Rooish]

Oh, I didn't realise that in the link I gave, it said that Leo deliberately "lost." I dont think he wanted his swords snapped or to be pinned down. I don't think he wanted Raph to almost kill him. But I do think he was "holding back" more than Raph was ... not that he especially wanted Raph to try to kill him in order to teach Raph a lesson. But that's how it turned out, so whatever Leo's intentions, I believe Leo did win in a psychological way, as Cassidy said (although Raph did teach Leo that he was a little too proud).

Warhorse, I loved Leo's WTF look when Raph called Leo "the mighty and powerful Leonardo." :lol:

Spawn Guy, I think violence is a terrible way to deal with ordinary thieves. I don't think beating up an armed or violent robber is the right way to do things (although they need to be prevented from hurting people), but it's more understandable. But I guess this is a problem I have with the morals of the TMNT universe, and in particular Raph's and Casey's mannerisms, that I shouldn't talk about in this thread.

And no prob, jenna! ;)

[Revan]

Raphael is the unoffical leader of the TMNT

I don't know about that. I believe Leo leads and Don is second in command. When April tells Leo his brothers need him, he replies, "I'm sure Don has everything in control." But that's only my opinion.

[triplexxx]

Each turtle has their own area of expertise. Leadership shifts depending on circumstances, which is why there is no "official" leader among the turtles, except Splinter.

[Rooish]

I don't know about that. I believe Leo leads and Don is second in command. When April tells Leo his brothers need him, he replies, "I'm sure Don has everything in control." But that's only my opinion.

I feel that Don exerts a subtle second-in-command vibe that isn't really shown in the 2k3 toon. I don't thinK Raph even wants to lead; he's just pissed off about being lead.

[Revan]

I don't thinK Raph even wants to leave; he's just pissed off about being lead.

in the 2k3 series ep. Tales of Leo. Raph talks to an unconcious Leonardo and tells him he wanted to be "top turtle" but Leo earned the leadership role.

[Rooish]

But I don't think he'd enjoy leading. I think he wants to do his own thing. He just is jealous of the connotations that come with leadership--being the better son and all that. Well, that's my interpretation ...

[Fledermaus]

But I don't think he'd enjoy leading. I think he wants to do his own thing. He just is jealous of the connotations that come with leadership--being the better son and all that. Well, that's my interpretation ...

And that makes perfect sense to me.

[triplexxx]

But I don't think he'd enjoy leading. I think he wants to do his own thing. He just is jealous of the connotations that come with leadership--being the better son and all that. Well, that's my interpretation ...
You're probably right, since he seems to enjoy independence, he simply fails to realize that these so-called "connotations" aren't true, otherwise he'd have nothing to be jealous about.

[Revan]

He just is jealous of the connotations that come with leadership--being the better son and all that.

Yeah. He wants too much. He wants to be the best but not necessarily the leader. He wants his bros to listen to him, but he doesn't want to earn their following.

[Nightwatcher]

I think Raph just wants to lead by example along with not being led by someone else. He doesn't want to be told when to go into a battle and when he decides to he wants his brothers to back him up. He knows he would have his brothers back whenever they went into a battle, so it's hard for him to understand why Leo would try to dissuade him or Don and Mike from doing what Raph thinks is right. Raph takes it personally when Leo questions him or his motives, especially in front of other people; and Leo takes it personally when Raph goes against him when Don and Mikey are willing to stay in line, especially in his movie representation.

This being said it makes Don's role in the group more important. He usually can keep a cool head in most situations. Plus, he seemed to be the guy who looked after Mikey (at least in the movie). I mean how many times did Leo talk directly to Mikey in the new movie? Leo's leadership seems to be geared towards being more disciplined than the others and giving out Splinter's directions during missions. Don's leadership seems to be more about keeping cool when one of three things is happening (Raph is getting mad/wanting to do his own thing, Leo is getting a bit smug/getting mad at Raph, or Mikey is losing sight of the seriousness of the situation).

I think someone could argue that Don is the "true" leader of the group. He just doesn't seem to care about the title of leader compared to actually leading. What do you expect from the smartest turtle though?

One last mention of Don. Who do you think each turtle would go to if they wanted to talk to someone because they were having a problem (besides Splinter). Raph would go to Don because he doesn't like to be led by Leo. Leo would go to Don because he respects his intelligence more than the other turtles seem to do. I think Mikey would because I don't necessarily think that he feels his problems would be important enough for Leo or Raph to really want to help deal with.

The more I talk about Don the more I like him. He is quickly becoming my number 2 turtle behind Raph.

[Spawn Guy]

Each turtle has their own area of expertise. Leadership shifts depending on circumstances, which is why there is no "official" leader among the turtles, except Splinter.

So what's Leo been doing all these years?

[triplexxx]

So what's Leo been doing all these years?
Being "unofficial" leader most of the time, since most circumstances apply to his area of expertise.

[tmntfan07]

Here's my take on things.

Leo has just come back from "training" and is disappointed in himself because he feels he didn't improve much as a leader. At the same time, he's expected to get his brothers in line again (mostly Raph). He's lost confidence in his leadership abilities and even says that his brothers may be better off without him. He's under enormous pressure to perform and his personality gets a lot edgier because of that. (Splinter's fault)

Raph really loves his brother Leo. But at the same time, he's dealing with conflicting emotions of jealousy and betrayal. He's jealous of Leo because he thinks Leo is the "favored" son. He feels abandoned since Leo has stayed away for much longer than planned. As a result, Raph becomes even more of a loner and tells himself he doesn't need anybody. So Raph comes up with this Nightwatcher character and completely ditches the ninjutsu act (in and out without being seen). Nightwatcher has his pictures in the news and even advertises his name. This is also a rebellion act against Splinter, who basically just waits for Leo to come back and fix things. Splinter is implicitly saying that only Leo is good enough to lead the team.

Now as for the fight, Leo happens upon this Nightwatcher character and takes the opportunity to stop a reckless vigilante. Leo's thinking that the Nightwatcher isn't evil, just misguided, and is in need of a lecturing once he's subdued. But then Leo unmasks him and finds out it's Raph. Everything comes to a head and they just spew out all their grievances with each other.

Leo is completely frustrated with Raph and drops the "I'm better than you" bomb. I don't think he was looking to pick a fight. He was just at the end of his rope and doesn't know how to reconcile things. This touches a nerve for Raph and he draws his weapons. Leo didn't plan for things to go this far so he tells Raph "Don't do this". Leo is reluctant to draw his weapons but he's already pretty angry, himself.

Leo starts off fighting defensively and then just explodes at Raph with the offensive squence ending in the midsection kick and the shoulder shot (perfect control there). I think this let Leo release a lot of his steam. Leo doesn't know what to do at this point. He then brings both swords down into that weapons lock. He knew it was coming with a straightforward attack like that. Maybe he's hoping to buy some time. Leo's good, but not good enough to disarm Raph without killing him.

Raph is still really pissed off though and even more so now Leo just again one-uped him with that previous sequence. Look at their teeth (seriously, that's how you tell). Raph is showing a lot more teeth. Leo's mouth actually looks closed at this point until just before he realizes Raph is exerting enough pressure to break his swords. Raph has lost it. He's inches and seconds away from killing Leo. But then Raph comes to his senses and realizes what he almost did. So he runs to regroup his thoughts.

Raph comes to the realization that he needs to better control his emotions and that's why Leo is Splinter's favorite student. Leo would never lose control like that. No. Leo is the master at keeping it all bottled inside so that one day, when he finally does snap for real, he'll be the biggest homicidal maniac the world has ever seen.

~ Finis ~

[Fledermaus]

Raph comes to the realization that he needs to better control his emotions and that's why Leo is Splinter's favorite student. Leo would never lose control like that. No. Leo is the master at keeping it all bottled inside so that one day, when he finally does snap for real, he'll be the biggest homicidal maniac the world has ever seen.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: EXACTLY my theory!!

I will quote an architect friend of mine, but I think it could apply to many areas:

"A clean, well-organized workspace is merely the outward manifestation of a deeply troubled mind."

Go ahead and substitute 'workspace' with personal appearance or some other universal term. I'm tellin' ya... Leonardo is (deep down) the coldest, most evil/psychotic of his brothers.:evilgrin:

[Whitewolf89]

:snorts: That's putting it mildly....:lol:

You got THAT right! If Raph's temper was a volcano, I think it would compare with Mt. Vesuvius combined with Mt. Krakatoa at times!!!:o

What's funny about the lecturing comment is that in the novelization it aslo says that Raph's helmet was damaged in the Jersey Devil fight to the point he could barely hear Leo with it on anyway.

This is a bit OT, and I'm NOT really commenting on what Time Mistress is talking about here, but just WHERE the SHELL can I FIND the novelization of the movie?! I've looked everywhere that I KNOW to look around this darned town, and I haven't found it YET! One of my buddies over at DA said she found it at her local grocery store, but I've looked at BOTH of ours, PLUS the Wal-Mart Supercenter here, and can NOT FIND the thing! If ANYONE around here can give me a clue as to WHERE to look, OR how TO get it, I would GREATLY appreciate it!

And now, BACK to our regularly-scheduled topic-subject.......................

:lol: :lol:

[jenna]

You got THAT right! If Raph's temper was a volcano, I think it would compare with Mt. Vesuvius combined with Mt. Krakatoa at times!!!:o



This is a bit OT, and I'm NOT really commenting on what Time Mistress is talking about here, but just WHERE the SHELL can I FIND the novelization of the movie?! I've looked everywhere that I KNOW to look around this darned town, and I haven't found it YET! One of my buddies over at DA said she found it at her local grocery store, but I've looked at BOTH of ours, PLUS the Wal-Mart Supercenter here, and can NOT FIND the thing! If ANYONE around here can give me a clue as to WHERE to look, OR how TO get it, I would GREATLY appreciate it!

And now, BACK to our regularly-scheduled topic-subject.......................

:lol: :lol:

I got mine from good old Amazon. Arrived on my door step the next day!

[Willis]

Each turtle has their own area of expertise. Leadership shifts depending on circumstances, which is why there is no "official" leader among the turtles, except Splinter.
I think Raph just wants to lead by example along with not being led by someone else. He doesn't want to be told when to go into a battle and when he decides to he wants his brothers to back him up. He knows he would have his brothers back whenever they went into a battle, so it's hard for him to understand why Leo would try to dissuade him or Don and Mike from doing what Raph thinks is right. Raph takes it personally when Leo questions him or his motives, especially in front of other people; and Leo takes it personally when Raph goes against him when Don and Mikey are willing to stay in line, especially in his movie representation.

I agree with much of this. I see it where, Raph recognizes that each turtle has their shining moment to be the leader and explain what the plan should be. But there are times when he knows what the choice should be, that there are times of planning and times of action.. and hates when they (or at least, Leo) do not agree.

Like the scene where they see the construction sight .. Leonardo says that because of Splinter's orders, they all should just mind their own business and ignore it. Raphael knows that's not what they should be doing and knows they need to check it out. So he doesn't care to listen.

Raph really loves his brother Leo. But at the same time, he's dealing with conflicting emotions of jealousy and betrayal.

Again agreed. In the movie I got the feeling that although Raph may hate Leo's attitude and outlook on things.. he's still a Brother and doesn't want anything to come between.

[PrivateRadio]

The idea of Donatello sort of being the real leader was kind of interesting. I liked it. There's so many points against him though.

1) He's the weakest fighter of the four of them. While this movie didn't outright say it I don't think, I'm pretty sure every other Turtles medium (excluding maybe the 80's toon) have made a point of it.

2) He's never really issued a real field command. Regardless of fighting ability, Leonardo is always made out to be the field strategist (as far as combat goes, everything else is always Don) of the bunch.

That said, even though he was sort of downplayed in this one, I LOVED the way the new movie handled Donny. Every scene was completely nailed, and I was very pleasantly surprised by the argument he had with Raph. I was so glad this movie included as much interaction between the four of them as it did.

I really strayed off the thread's topic here, haha, sorry.

[Nightwatcher]

The idea of Donatello sort of being the real leader was kind of interesting. I liked it. There's so many points against him though.

1) He's the weakest fighter of the four of them. While this movie didn't outright say it I don't think, I'm pretty sure every other Turtles medium (excluding maybe the 80's toon) have made a point of it.

2) He's never really issued a real field command. Regardless of fighting ability, Leonardo is always made out to be the field strategist (as far as combat goes, everything else is always Don) of the bunch.

That said, even though he was sort of downplayed in this one, I LOVED the way the new movie handled Donny. Every scene was completely nailed, and I was very pleasantly surprised by the argument he had with Raph. I was so glad this movie included as much interaction between the four of them as it did.

I really strayed off the thread's topic here, haha, sorry.

I don't necessarily think because he is the alleged weakest fighter or the fact he doesn't issue field commands really makes him non-leader. While he may not lead on the battlefield I think he is the best leader while they are not fighting. Even Splinter said something interesting to Don in the new movie. I wish I could remember the quote but it was something about his brothers having strengths and weaknesses and how DON must keep a cool head.

What he said was just interesting to me because it seems like a quality that the leader of the group should have and he said it to Don. I wish I could remember the quote.

[PrivateRadio]

I don't necessarily think because he is the alleged weakest fighter or the fact he doesn't issue field commands really makes him non-leader. While he may not lead on the battlefield I think he is the best leader while they are not fighting. Even Splinter said something interesting to Don in the new movie. I wish I could remember the quote but it was something about his brothers having strengths and weaknesses and how must DON must keep a cool head.

What he said was just interesting to me because it seems like a quality that the leader of the group should have and he said it to Don. I wish I could remember the quote.

Yeah, that's all true. Also remember in the very beginning Leo says "Well Donatello must have everything under control." or something along those lines.

there's never been a real time where Donny's been played up in a leadership position. It'd certainly be interesting because I also feel like he's portrayed as the least confident of the four. I'd especially like to see it in a sequel to this movie because I can't stress how much I loved Don in this movie enough.

[Nightwatcher]

Yeah, that's all true. Also remember in the very beginning Leo says "Well Donatello must have everything under control." or something along those lines.

there's never been a real time where Donny's been played up in a leadership position. It'd certainly be interesting because I also feel like he's portrayed as the least confident of the four. I'd especially like to see it in a sequel to this movie because I can't stress how much I loved Don in this movie enough.

I'm with you. I was thinking about a possible storyline for Donny to play a huge role as a leader since Leo didn't necessarily get his leadership confidence back that he was lacking the entire movie.

I could see Donny playign a huge role in helping Leo get his mojo back as the "leader" and helping Mikey and/or Raph with their own things along the way. Really show him as the glue holding them together.

[esco]

What he said was just interesting to me because it seems like a quality that the leader of the group should have and he said it to Don. I wish I could remember the quote.

Though he was talking to Don, I don't think the comment was meant to be exclusivley directed to Don and only Don. "Each of your brother's has strengths and weaknesses. You must learn to be strong when they are weak. If you don't learn to recognize this, then all hope is lost for our family."

IMO, it was situational. Splinter could have said that to any of the turtles because it is something that they all need to know anyway. But Don was the one who was complaining about Raph being the cause of contention and thinking Raph wasn't contributing, so. But then again, maybe Don is the one who is most capable of stepping up and being strong when another is weak.

[Rooish]

I think Raph just wants to lead by example along with not being led by someone else. He doesn't want to be told when to go into a battle and when he decides to he wants his brothers to back him up. He knows he would have his brothers back whenever they went into a battle, so it's hard for him to understand why Leo would try to dissuade him or Don and Mike from doing what Raph thinks is right. Raph takes it personally when Leo questions him or his motives, especially in front of other people; and Leo takes it personally when Raph goes against him when Don and Mikey are willing to stay in line, especially in his movie representation.

This being said it makes Don's role in the group more important. He usually can keep a cool head in most situations. Plus, he seemed to be the guy who looked after Mikey (at least in the movie). I mean how many times did Leo talk directly to Mikey in the new movie? Leo's leadership seems to be geared towards being more disciplined than the others and giving out Splinter's directions during missions. Don's leadership seems to be more about keeping cool when one of three things is happening (Raph is getting mad/wanting to do his own thing, Leo is getting a bit smug/getting mad at Raph, or Mikey is losing sight of the seriousness of the situation).

I think someone could argue that Don is the "true" leader of the group. He just doesn't seem to care about the title of leader compared to actually leading. What do you expect from the smartest turtle though?

One last mention of Don. Who do you think each turtle would go to if they wanted to talk to someone because they were having a problem (besides Splinter). Raph would go to Don because he doesn't like to be led by Leo. Leo would go to Don because he respects his intelligence more than the other turtles seem to do. I think Mikey would because I don't necessarily think that he feels his problems would be important enough for Leo or Raph to really want to help deal with.

The more I talk about Don the more I like him. He is quickly becoming my number 2 turtle behind Raph.

I don't really think that Don is the leader, but I do think that he is sort of the "glue" of the team, because of the reasons you said. I think he would be a good person to "go to" for any of the Turtles, although I think that Raph might at times go to Mikey.

Who does Don go to, though? Leo?

[Nightwatcher]

I don't really think that Don is the leader, but I do think that he is sort of the "glue" of the team, because of the reasons you said. I think he would be a good person to "go to" for any of the Turtles, although I think that Raph might at times go to Mikey.

Who does Don go to, though? Leo?

Don invents a robot of himself and then talks to it. :D Really depending on the problem I could see Don going to any of them.

I'll buy that he is the glue of the team. He and Leo seem like the most level headed, but the new movie Leo took him away from that level-headedness for awhile.

[Willis]

Don invents a robot of himself and then talks to it. :D Really depending on the problem I could see Don going to any of them.

I'll buy that he is the glue of the team. He and Leo seem like the most level headed, but the new movie Leo took him away from that level-headedness for awhile.

Yeah, Leo and Don have a balance to be level headed... Raph and Mikey are like extremes of each way (but both can be very level headed). Its crazy but it forms balance.

I was glad Splinters line about strengths and weakness was spoken to Don, because I think he would be the turtle who could grasp it the most and then paraphrase it to everyone else.

Plus like you guys Don is like the glue.. everyone listens to Don. If no then well, Don could act like Leo and pull out the "I'm smarter then you!" line.. heaven knows he'd pull out a CPT/ACT/SAT and watch the other turtles weep. :lol:

[Warhorse]

Yeah, Leo and Don have a balance to be level headed... Raph and Mikey are like extremes of each way (but both can be very level headed). Its crazy but it forms balance.

I was glad Splinters line about strengths and weakness was spoken to Don, because I think he would be the turtle who could grasp it the most and then paraphrase it to everyone else.

Plus like you guys Don is like the glue.. everyone listens to Don. If no then well, Don could act like Leo and pull out the "I'm smarter then you!" line.. heaven knows he'd pull out a CPT/ACT/SAT and watch the other turtles weep. :lol:

OMG. You just gave a great discription of a good scene to come in the sequel.

I can see it now, Raph and Leo are arguing again. Leo pulls out his "I'm better than you!" line, and here comes peacemaker Donny trying to solve an intricate mathematics problem. WHAM on the heads of Raph and Leo with the bo staff, and Donny going "And I'm smarter than the both of you, so shut up!":D

[Daunt]

That fight really made the movie for me. Their conflict is such a well balanced emotional twist, it was great to see it pushed to the point of blows in the movie. I'm -very-glad Raph won simply because the impact of the scene was tremendous because of it. It knocked sense into both him and Leo it seems.

Ahhh, now I want to go watch the movie again. :(

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

^I saw the movie again, and the fight seemed even better

[Daunt]

^I saw the movie again, and the fight seemed even better

Curses, I was hoping to hold out until the weekend, I may not be able to! >_>;

[CudleyCowlick]

I voted that Raph deserved to win, but perhaps "deserved" isn't the right word. There's no question in my mind that the two of them are equally skilled and evenly matched, but it would be tough for Leo to take Raph down, he just doesn't have it in him. Sure, if Raph was upset enough to slip up, Leo might find an opening, but would he press it?

No, I think Mr. Arctic is right, Leo was making a point. Raph would kick Leo's ass in an all-out fight, but that's why Leo is the better leader, because he knows that approach does not always work. I think the whole conflict was handled very well except for one thing, Leo didn't realize the Night Watcher was Raph until the mask came off! Bullspit! He should have been able to figure it out BEFORE he met up with him on the roof. It didn't take Casey so long.

[Warhorse]

I voted that Raph deserved to win, but perhaps "deserved" isn't the right word. There's no question in my mind that the two of them are equally skilled and evenly matched, but it would be tough for Leo to take Raph down, he just doesn't have it in him. Sure, if Raph was upset enough to slip up, Leo might find an opening, but would he press it?

No, I think Mr. Arctic is right, Leo was making a point. Raph would kick Leo's ass in an all-out fight, but that's why Leo is the better leader, because he knows that approach does not always work. I think the whole conflict was handled very well except for one thing, Leo didn't realize the Night Watcher was Raph until the mask came off! Bullspit! He should have been able to figure it out BEFORE he met up with him on the roof. It didn't take Casey so long.

This line of thinking has me wondering. What if one of the Turtles other than Leo, went truly evil. Went to the darkside of the moon. Would Leo have what it takes to bring a stop to it?

[Willis]

This line of thinking has me wondering. What if one of the Turtles other than Leo, went truly evil. Went to the darkside of the moon. Would Leo have what it takes to bring a stop to it?

Hmm.. *sits for a minute and tricks himself into thinking that was remotely possible*

I think not. All honesty I think he would try, maybe disarm and disable to the best of his abilities... but if it required a final blow he could not.

I wager it would either require the crazed turtle to somehow do themselves in, or Splinter to oversee what's best for the family yet again.

[Warhorse]

Hmm.. *sits for a minute and tricks himself into thinking that was remotely possible*

I think not. All honesty I think he would try, maybe disarm and disable to the best of his abilities... but if it required a final blow he could not.

I wager it would either require the crazed turtle to somehow do themselves in, or Splinter to oversee what's best for the family yet again.

I can't remember if this was from the cartoon or one of the comics, but wasn't there some snipit that had Splinter become rabid, and Leo was sent to put his life to an end, but after some struggle, Splinter actually accidentally tripped and fell upon Leo's sword? I'm not sure where I saw this. But it's like Leo didn't have it in him, but fate decided to take care of the ugly deed for him.

Or maybe I imagined it. Won't be the first. The Turtles and their atmosphere are so well drawn out and speculated, it's not hard to visualize a story, and get it mixed up as canon.

[Rockzero]

I voted Raph as well. Yeah, Leo's "I'm better than you" line was a little much...for someone who is supposed to be the leader, that was a pretty immature thing to say. But then again, they are teenage mutant ninja turtles. :P

Anyway, kind of echoing what others have said, I feel Raph is the better fighter, and Leonardo is the better leader.

[The Shelf]

I voted Raph as well. Yeah, Leo's "I'm better than you" line was a little much...for someone who is supposed to be the leader, that was a pretty immature thing to say. But then again, they are teenage mutant ninja turtles. :P

Anyway, kind of echoing what others have said, I feel Raph is the better fighter, and Leonardo is the better leader.

Oh, come on man. I thought it had already been decided here that Leo said that line intentionally to aggravate Raph knowing that it was the only way to get Raph to work off his anger. Leo doesn't really think he's better than Raph, and that's precisely what he had been trying to show Raph the whole time, but he wouldn't listen. Provoking Raph to fight him was the only way to show Raph how much his anger was getting in the way of things. That line Leo said was one of the most mature and responsible things he could have done in that particular situation. It ended the arguments once and for all so the two could get on with their lives. Leo knew that's what they needed to do.

Having said that, I don't think Leo expected to be beaten. At the end of the fight, he knew Raph had the advantage when they locked weapons, but I don't think he expected Raph to actually break his swords. He certainly didn't expect to be pinned down in that manner.

I still think Raph and Leo are equal fighters, but Raph will always win over Leo in a fight because he's willing to be more ruthless whereas Leo will always hold back to avoid hurting Raph.

On a side note, I love how Raph snapped Leo's swords. That's precisely how sais should be used against sword fighters, and I never expected a ninja turtles movie or cartoon to accurately portray that.

[Rockzero]

Oh, come on man. I thought it had already been decided here that Leo said that line intentionally to aggravate Raph knowing that it was the only way to get Raph to work off his anger. Leo doesn't really think he's better than Raph, and that's precisely what he had been trying to show Raph the whole time, but he wouldn't listen. Provoking Raph to fight him was the only way to show Raph how much his anger was getting in the way of things. That line Leo said was one of the most mature and responsible things he could have done in that particular situation. It ended the arguments once and for all so the two could get on with their lives. Leo knew that's what they needed to do.


I guess I remember the scene differently. I'll have to watch it again. And while I do think Leonardo is a great leader, I don't really know if he intended that ultimate outcome by saying that. To me it seemed more of a case of getting angry, losing your state of calm and saying things you don't mean out of frustration. While I do agree with what you said about the ultimate outcome (though I'm not sure there will ever be an end "once and for all" to the Leo vs. Raph subplot/idea) , I'm just not sure if I believe that he thought out what he was saying.

And the rest of your post summed up my additional thoughts exactly.

I'll have to watch the scene again...darn, an excuse to go see the movie. ;)

[The Shelf]

I guess I remember the scene differently. I'll have to watch it again. And while I do think Leonardo is a great leader, I don't really know if he intended that ultimate outcome by saying that. To me it seemed more of a case of getting angry, losing your state of calm and saying things you don't mean out of frustration. While I do agree with what you said about the ultimate outcome (though I'm not sure there will ever be an end "once and for all" to the Leo vs. Raph subplot/idea) , I'm just not sure if I believe that he thought out what he was saying.

And the rest of your post summed up my additional thoughts exactly.

I'll have to watch the scene again...darn, an excuse to go see the movie. ;)

I dunno, that's just how I interpreted it when I first heard it. I've only seen the movie once (it stinks being a poor college student!). I certainly agree that Leo didn't plan the ultimate outcome from the beginning, and he probably didn't even plan out specifically what he was saying. Like I said, I think he only wanted to provoke Raph because he knew it was the only way to get through to him. Raph thought all along that Leo thought he was better than Raph. By saying it out in the open even though he didn't feel that way about himself, Leo essentially gave Raph an excuse to finally release all the steam he had been building up.

Also, perhaps I exaggerated when I said "once and for all." I still think Leo and Raph will always argue because they do have two very different ways of handling things, but Raph finally saw his own faults and why he wasn't better suited than Leo to be the leader. So in a sense it was "once and for all," though they will still quarrel over things forever. I wrote a much longer post on my views of all the turtles over in this thread (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19248&page=2) that gives a little more insight into how I see Leo and Raph's relationship.

I dunno, I just can't see Leo ever saying that he was better than any of the other turtles which is why I interpreted the scene this way.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I just thought that the scene showed that Leo wasn't the quote 'perfect' guy. Like some have said him and Raph are more similar to each other than they both realize. Like when Leo was saying things like 'Why do we need Raph anyway...' etc. while Donny said 'Okay Leo, nobody was talking about him.'

I think the fight was more of showing that Raph won, but with his anger which almost cost his brother Leo's life. He won...yet he lost, that type of thing.

On a side note, I know that the MTV Movie Awards has the "Best Fight" category. It's too bad this scene/fight couldn't be nominated cause it deserves to not only be nominated but win as well. Just my two cents on the matter.

[Nightwatcher]

I dunno, I just can't see Leo ever saying that he was better than any of the other turtles which is why I interpreted the scene this way.

I could see him saying that to Raph but not the other two. It doesn't seem like Don and Mikey really care all that much about being "better" than anyone else.

Leo was pretty mad at Raph at the time. Like during the scene where Don and April are talking about Winters, the monsters, and the planets aligning and Leo just busts out with how mad he is at Raph. I think he said it to make Raph mad and because he actually believed it.

I don't think he would have said it in any other situation, but he was stressed out and was fed up with Raph so he was just trying to put him in his place.

[Daunt]

That line was actually my favorite from the entire movie. It's like...Leo said the ONE thing they'd both been thinking but hadn't said.

It seems like Raph always had on his mind, "He thinks he's better than me, he's not!" and Leo alternately thinking, "He thinks he's above everyones rules, he's not, I'm a better fighter, I'm more honorable than him. I do whats right, I'm better than him."

So it was like Leo saying the one thing they were both thinking lit the very short fuse of anger between them.

Anyways, thats just my thoughts on it. I love that line and I am not so sure Leo said it on purpose, I think he was just super angry...

Ahhh, man. :( No second viewing until this weekend, I am so sad.

[SavantiRomero]

I just don't agree with the comment by people that Raph is a better/equal fighter to Leo. Leo has always been portrayed as the better fighter/practitioner. Raph has always been portrayed as more of a scrapper/brawler.

Alot happened in that scene, like Leo being taken by surprise. I'm more sure Leo was holding back, his performance dropped several scales from when he believed he was just fighting the Nightwatcher. When he realized he was fighting his brother he backed off. He didn't even want to fight. Raph forced him to.

It looked more to me like Leo gave Raph the opportunity to end the fight. Everyone "should" know that Sai's will beat swords when that position is attained, and I think Leo purposely gave it to Raph to wake him up. It even looked to me, at least, like Leo helped Raph break his swords to see if he'd go that far.

Of course that's just my opinion.

[Warhorse]

I just don't agree with the comment by people that Raph is a better/equal fighter to Leo. Leo has always been portrayed as the better fighter/practitioner. Raph has always been portrayed as more of a scrapper/brawler.

Alot happened in that scene, like Leo being taken by surprise. I'm more sure Leo was holding back, his performance dropped several scales from when he believed he was just fighting the Nightwatcher. When he realized he was fighting his brother he backed off. He didn't even want to fight. Raph forced him to.

It looked more to me like Leo gave Raph the opportunity to end the fight. Everyone "should" know that Sai's will beat swords when that position is attained, and I think Leo purposely gave it to Raph to wake him up. It even looked to me, at least, like Leo helped Raph break his swords to see if he'd go that far.

Of course that's just my opinion.

I always heard that Leo, in most mediums tends to be the better fighter, in terms that he has the discipline and dedication to the art, but if Raphael and Mikey were to get their focus, they could easily out do Leo. Raph is just raw power, and Mikey has incredible speed and athletism that cna't be matched, no matter how Leo trains.

But Leo is so good, because he is a good mixture of different traits, I just don't see him having the talent of Raph and Mikey. But he more than makes up for it in his maturity and focus.

But this is my opinion.

And I'm not hating on Don. But Don never seemed to be as strong as a fighter as the other three. But with his brain, he doesn't have to. Too bad he can't attend MIT, I'd bet he would be smashing records and become a household name!;)

[jenna]

Oh, come on man. I thought it had already been decided here that Leo said that line intentionally to aggravate Raph knowing that it was the only way to get Raph to work off his anger. .

There have been some really fascinating arguments in this thread as to what made Leo say "I'm better than you," and I'm not inclined to say that there is any one answer set in stone. My own thoughts are that despite being the eldest, despite being the leader, Leonardo is only 17(ish) and is still so young. He has always been shown to be torn between his two roles in the world 1. Leonardo the leader and 2. Leonardo the teenager. I love the line in Film 1 where he knee skids up to Master Splinter saying, bursting with excitement: "We have had our first battle. they were many, but we kicked their... [collects himself] we fought well." This to me sums up Leonardo's conflict. He has been entrusted with a responsibility which is too young for. I don't know about you guys but when I was 17 no amount of Bushido, meditation or wise teaching would have kept me from getting into petty arguments and being a normal troublemaking teenager. Hats off to Leo for doing his job as well as he does.

Neither the novelisation nor the movie explain what Leonardo was specifically doing on his training in South America, but I expect that Splinter wanted him to return more mature with more life experience. Whilst he makes every effort, Raphael has the knack for winding him up and in the same way Leo said "You act like a jerk sometimes" in film 1, he just can't help himself but to bite back occassionally.

[Jo Dawn]

I can't vote on this. I don't think there is an answer, to be honest.

Anyhow... I completely agree with jenna here above me for the most part.

And I'm not hating on Don. But Don never seemed to be as strong as a fighter as the other three. But with his brain, he doesn't have to.

I never really got the feeling that he wanted to be. Of all of them, it is least in his nature to do what they do.



EDIT - Though, I have to tell you... Both times I went to see this (so far... and especially the first time), when Leo said that? A majority of the theater went 'Oooooooh'. Hehe.

[Warhorse]

I never really got the feeling that he wanted to be. Of all of them, it is least in his nature to do what they do.


That's true, that Don is a very nice guy, and want peace more than anything. But I would like to see him get really pissed off at one of his brothers for destroying one of his inventions in the making.:P

[The Shelf]

One of my favorite scenes ever with Donatello was in the Volume 4 comic. I think it was in issue 9 when they're trying to figure out a cure for April. There's about 5 or 6 pages to it. Don finds the remains of Baxter Stockman to ask him for a cure since he caused the problem to begin with. Baxter just screws with him the whole time. Finally, Don gets fed up, walks over to the wall, grabs a laser gun, and blows Baxter to pieces. He says, "Goodbye, Baxter. Rot in hell." Best Don scene ever! That pretty much sums up his method of dealing with things. Search exhaustively for a peaceful solution, and if none arises, kick butt. Donny may be relatively peaceful, but if you mess with a loved one he can be wickedly cold. I love it. :evilgrin:

[aabxx]

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

[Warhorse]

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

Leo has the best weapons? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 2k3 toon, when the Turtles were having weapons training, and Leo thought his were the best, Splinter was real quick to disarm Leo, with nothing more than a walking stick and his bare hands, chiding Leo on how a true ninja can make a deadly weapon out of anything.

[Masked Ninja]

I am a Leo fan (though not exclusively :P) and I think that he lost fair and square. His moment of hesitation was probably the realization that he'd made a dumb mistake - aka, locking his weapons with Raph's. Sai are designed to break swords, and Leo knows his brother is strong enough to do it.

As it tends to be in Leo/Raph fights, the one that's angrier wins. And that was Raph. *shrug* Leo probably was a little overconfident, seeing that he'd been training intensively for a while, and owning relatively easy prey in South America as he did it. And I liked that. Leo's not always right - while he means well most of the time, he certainly has his cocky jerk moments. Yay character depth. :)

[Swany]

I didnt vote on this one. Because even though Raph won. It was a victory for Leo, he showed Raph that he is the leader. Even if he did get his ass handed to him.

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

I don't think Leo staged his confusion, I think he was actually suprised that his brother was angry and jelous enough to destroy his katanas.

And Warhorse is right, I just watched that eppy the other day. Its said plenty of times that "Its not the weapon, but the ninja who wields them"
Plus I dont think thats its just that Leo is a better fighter, he just has the most balance, he is able to control his emotions.

Yeah, I do wish they would stop fighting, but theyre brothers, they're close, but theres always conflict. (I should know, I have 3 bros and we argue all the time, even though were close)

[aabxx]

Leo has the best weapons? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 2k3 toon, when the Turtles were having weapons training, and Leo thought his were the best, Splinter was real quick to disarm Leo, with nothing more than a walking stick and his bare hands, chiding Leo on how a true ninja can make a deadly weapon out of anything.

They drew weapons that looked cool... it's as simple as that. Now you're gonna tell us the weapons are equal just because Splinter implied so? Yes, try hitting a monster with chucks and tell me how much damage you can do compared to a katana or sai.

[VaughnMichael]

Leo's had this commin' for years.:evilgrin:
He's cocky I don't care at who's hands but some one needed to hand his butt to him.

[Shark_Blade]

They drew weapons that looked cool... it's as simple as that. Now you're gonna tell us the weapons are equal just because Splinter implied so? Yes, try hitting a monster with chucks and tell me how much damage you can do compared to a katana or sai.If you're smart, even a nunchaku can destroy your enemy.;) Remember Splinter using a nunchaku in the first movie? :) A ninja is a master of his environment, so any weapon can be deadly if used wisely;);)8)

[Swany]

They drew weapons that looked cool... it's as simple as that. Now you're gonna tell us the weapons are equal just because Splinter implied so? Yes, try hitting a monster with chucks and tell me how much damage you can do compared to a katana or sai.

Just 'cause their sharp and pointy doesent make them superior.

[aabxx]

Just 'cause their sharp and pointy doesent make them superior.

Yes, that's probably why almost every warrior in Japan was using sharp weapons... but when Japan invaded Okinawa, they eventually banned iron weapons, so the villagers had no choice but to create last ditch weapons from wood. Of course, some wooden weapons are fairly good, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they managed to create equal weapons from everyday items...

I can turn my amplifier into a deadly weapon by smashing it hard enough onto someone's head but I wouldn't say it's equal to a sword... likewise, nunchakus have their uses but a lot of weapons are simply more lethal. Now, if you want non-lethal weapons, nunchakus look decent... but even then, for the same amount of training, you would be far better off with a staff or a wooden sword (or perhaps go for the mighty baseball bat...).

[jenna]

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

Leo could never have won this battle for the pure a simple fact that Leonardo is level headed and can control his temper. He does not get lost in his own rage. He was making a conscious effort to fight with gusto but at the same time to not hurt his brother.

Raphael on the other hand, as we have seen in many different occassions, gets so lost in his anger that he loses control of himself. How many times has he nearly killed out of rage (ie Mikey in 2k3 / vol 1 - that was over sparring for crying out loud and his battle with Leo is 18 years of anger and repressed feelings of being the least loved child coming out - pretty big stuff). When Raphael is angry there is something so frightening about how he loses himself - it is almost like a dissasociative psychosis (I'm not saying that he is psychotic, just that his anger is really extreme).

[Seiza]

Leo could never have won this battle for the pure a simple fact that Leonardo is level headed and can control his temper. He does not get lost in his own rage. He was making a conscious effort to fight with gusto but at the same time to not hurt his brother.
I know we don't have any hard proof for it, but I do believe this makes the most sense plot-wise. If Leo went into the battle as angry as Raph did, how would that lead Raph to later go into his "I know why you chose him now etc." speech? Something Leo did (and that was to not allow his anger to consume him) made Raph come to that decision. When the weapons are locked, just look at the difference between Raph and Leo's expressions.

Though I do think he went in there wanting to win, and got the tables turned on him. I can't imagine Leo pulling a roundabout-sensei-style lesson when he's so pissed off in the beginning.

[jenna]

I know we don't have any hard proof for it, but I do believe this makes the most sense plot-wise. If Leo went into the battle as angry as Raph did, how would that lead Raph to later go into his "I know why you chose him now etc." speech? Something Leo did (and that was to not allow his anger to consume him) made Raph come to that decision. When the weapons are locked, just look at the difference between Raph and Leo's expressions.

Though I do think he went in there wanting to win, and got the tables turned on him. I can't imagine Leo pulling a roundabout-sensei-style lesson when he's so pissed off in the beginning.

Yeah, I agree Leo went in wanting to win, but didn't quite realise just how upset Raphael was, and that he would take it to the point where he was poised to murder.... the look on his face when those swords snap is like: "Oh sh*t, he's really lost it..."

[Rooish]

I agree. I don't think he honestly thought his swords would break.

[RaphistheBest]

I don't really think there was any blame to be put on anyone, it was just an inevitable sibling fight. Leo, after having been gone for so long, was simply trying to live up to Splinter's expectations and not disappoint while Raph was frustrated that the city wasn't being protected and that they still weren't doing anything about it.

Initially I thought the "I'm better than you" comment by Leo was a bit of a putdown, but really it's just Leo getting to the point of why he's the leader. He was tired of Raph not listening and so he put it bluntly, maybe too bluntly. I also think Leo won the fight, but he stopped in shock once his katanas were broken. You could see him thinking "Whoa...he broke them?" right before he was knocked down because he wasn't expecting Raph to go that far, because at that point Raph was just in a rage and wasn't seeing Leo as Leo, but as the target of all his anger and hate.

Whatever ya think, I think we all can agree that was a fantastic sequence.

For me Raph deserved to win. And Leo's comment about him being better than Raph just showed how much Splinter had pounded that into his head. When you're a teenager and someone tells you repeatedly that you have all the qualities of a leader and that's why you are as such, that goes to your head. I don't care how mature you are that's just what happens. Splinter sending Leo off on his training really cemented that idea. So in my opinion Leo just had a big head because Splinter had made him the leader.

A friend of mine who went to the movie with a big group of us and who isn't much of a turtles fan brought up a very good point after the movie. There was talk about how a leader should have humility and compassion. But for being a leader Leo didn't have to humility or compassion. Leo is just as bad as Raph when it comes to admitting that he's wrong. When Raph screwed up big time he admitted it. When Leo found out that Raph was the Nightwatcher he didn't try to understand, he just got mad. So for my friend that kinda ruined the movie for him because Leo was supposed to be this great leader and he was messing up at it. I guess that it goes to show that Leo and Raph are more alike than they think.

But Raph still deserved to win. :P

[Revan]

For me Raph deserved to win. And Leo's comment about him being better than Raph just showed how much Splinter had pounded that into his head. When you're a teenager and someone tells you repeatedly that you have all the qualities of a leader and that's why you are as such, that goes to your head. I don't care how mature you are that's just what happens. Splinter sending Leo off on his training really cemented that idea. So in my opinion Leo just had a big head because Splinter had made him the leader.

A friend of mine who went to the movie with a big group of us and who isn't much of a turtles fan brought up a very good point after the movie. There was talk about how a leader should have humility and compassion. But for being a leader Leo didn't have to humility or compassion. Leo is just as bad as Raph when it comes to admitting that he's wrong. When Raph screwed up big time he admitted it. When Leo found out that Raph was the Nightwatcher he didn't try to understand, he just got mad. So for my friend that kinda ruined the movie for him because Leo was supposed to be this great leader and he was messing up at it. I guess that it goes to show that Leo and Raph are more alike than they think.

But Raph still deserved to win. :P

I wonder what they were trying to communicate with this scene. I've seen it debated back and forth on who deserved to win and both sides of the argument make some sense to me.

I would be interested to know exactly what they were thinking.

[Warhorse]

Yes, that's probably why almost every warrior in Japan was using sharp weapons... but when Japan invaded Okinawa, they eventually banned iron weapons, so the villagers had no choice but to create last ditch weapons from wood. Of course, some wooden weapons are fairly good, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they managed to create equal weapons from everyday items...

I can turn my amplifier into a deadly weapon by smashing it hard enough onto someone's head but I wouldn't say it's equal to a sword... likewise, nunchakus have their uses but a lot of weapons are simply more lethal. Now, if you want non-lethal weapons, nunchakus look decent... but even then, for the same amount of training, you would be far better off with a staff or a wooden sword (or perhaps go for the mighty baseball bat...).

Wow. So your almost saying Leo chose the sword to make up for some sort of shortcomings he may have? Well, geeze, if that is the case, that Leo has it easy because his weapon is a far reaching weapon, and he doesn't have the risk of injury from engaging in close contact fighting, that he would most certaintly have if he was equipped with a nunchuck or sai. So, from that alone, Leo may have the superior weapon, but Raph and Mikey are the more better and fearless fighters, since they don't have much of a weapon to back themselves up except their own skills.

Kind of adds a whole new twist on things.

[bullet]

Leo could never have won this battle for the pure a simple fact that Leonardo is level headed and can control his temper. He does not get lost in his own rage. He was making a conscious effort to fight with gusto but at the same time to not hurt his brother.

Raphael on the other hand, as we have seen in many different occassions, gets so lost in his anger that he loses control of himself. How many times has he nearly killed out of rage (ie Mikey in 2k3 / vol 1 - that was over sparring for crying out loud and his battle with Leo is 18 years of anger and repressed feelings of being the least loved child coming out - pretty big stuff). When Raphael is angry there is something so frightening about how he loses himself - it is almost like a dissasociative psychosis (I'm not saying that he is psychotic, just that his anger is really extreme).

completely agreed.

before revealing himself as raph, leo had no trouble knocking the nightwatcher around. but after knowing that he was fighting his own brother, i think he controlled his rage to a point where he tried to fight the battle that couldn't be stopped all the while avoiding to cause serious injury to his bro. raph on the other hand was channeling his wrath and disapproval of leo entirely into his strength - something he excels at. which is why at the end, after leo's swords snapped, raph came to a realization that his outburst of anger could have resulted in something tragic.

raph has the upperhand in brute force, but theoretically leo would be the better fighter, as in more rounded and having a deeper understanding an appreciation for ninjutsu/bushido as well as the ability to control his emotions.

[Warhorse]

completely agreed.

before revealing himself as raph, leo had no trouble knocking the nightwatcher around. but after knowing that he was fighting his own brother, i think he controlled his rage to a point where he tried to fight the battle that couldn't be stopped all the while avoiding to cause serious injury to his bro. raph on the other hand was channeling his wrath and disapproval of leo entirely into his strength - something he excels at. which is why at the end, after leo's swords snapped, raph came to a realization that his outburst of anger could have resulted in something tragic.

raph has the upperhand in brute force, but theoretically leo would be the better fighter, as in more rounded and having a deeper understanding an appreciation for ninjutsu/bushido as well as the ability to control his emotions.

Out of curosity, if you had to be in a fight with Leo or Raph, who would you choose to go up against?

[bullet]

Out of curosity, if you had to be in a fight with Leo or Raph, who would you choose to go up against?

im smarter than that so i'll go with neither. :P

but really, probably raph. whatever the outcome, at least it'd be quick.

[Warhorse]

im smarter than that so i'll go with neither. :P

but really, probably raph. whatever the outcome, at least it'd be quick.

You think he'd be quick? He seemed to have fun going after those burglars as the Nightwatcher.

[bullet]

the circumstances aren't clear enough for me to answer that completely. if i didn't commit any crimes, i don't see why he would do that. if it's just a fight to the death, i'd be for honor. in that case i wouldn't be running away then, would i?

[Warhorse]

the circumstances aren't clear enough for me to answer that completely. if i didn't commit any crimes, i don't see why he would do that. if it's just a fight to the death, i'd be for honor. in that case i wouldn't be running away then, would i?


What about just a little squabble, or tournament type battle?

[bullet]

if death isn't involved, then definitely raph. more fun that way.

who would you fight?

[esco]

Leo wanted to win? Against who? Raph or Nightwatcher? IMO, he didn't even want to fight Raph, but felt compelled to teach a lesson because he is the leader and Raph, like Don said, is the cause of contention, so he "fought" and "lost" to teach the lesson... so how could he have wanted to win the physical battle? That wouldn't have helped.

[triplexxx]

Leo wanted to win? Against who? Raph or Nightwatcher? IMO, he didn't even want to fight Raph, but felt compelled to teach a lesson because he is the leader and Raph, like Don said, is the cause of contention, so he "fought" and "lost" to teach the lesson... so how could he have wanted to win the physical battle? That wouldn't have helped.
Well, both Raphael and Leonardo were cause for contention. Raphael was getting on Leonardo for neglecting his family for a year, and Leonardo was getting on Raphael for risking his family's life by working out in the open. They both had a lesson to learn. And I could tell from their facial expressions during the fight that both were in to win, but neither would go so far as to kill each other. Although Leonardo almost accidently killed Raphael when he thrust his sword forward at his face, but Raphael dodged it; and after Raphael pinned Leonardo down, he stabbed his sai in the roof next to Leonardo's face, but then backed off and ran away.

[esco]

Although Leonardo almost accidently killed Raphael when he thrust his sword forward at his face, but Raphael dodged it;

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

[Shark_Blade]

Leo wouldn't hurt his brother that's why.;)

[jenna]

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

Yeah, it was more like a threat than an attempt to slit his throat.

[Revan]

^ The fight should have been over at this point when leo thrust his katana upon raph's shoulder. had it been a real enemy, would Leo have missed?

Also, Leo knocked nightwatcher down earlier. So Leo gets two 'points' before raph gets his first 'point'.

Leo - 2
raph - 1

[triplexxx]

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.
Remember in Shredder Strikes 1, when Leonardo flipped Raphael over the roof? He could've almost killed him there too, and might've if Raphael hadn't stuck his sai in the wall and saved himself. And remember when he cut splinter's head in Ancient One? Splinter got lucky since it wasn't a fatal cut. Leonardo has come close to killing someone without actually intending to do so.
And it wasn't aimed at his throat; the sword didn't come as a slash from the side or downward onto the shoulder; the sword was thrust forward point-first at his face.

[esco]

Remember in Shredder Strikes 1, when Leonardo flipped Raphael over the roof? He could've almost killed him there too, and might've if Raphael hadn't stuck his sai in the wall and saved himself. And remember when he cut splinter's head in Ancient One? Splinter got lucky since it wasn't a fatal cut. Leonardo has come close to killing someone without actually intending to do so.

Well, IMO, 2k3 Leo and TMNT Leo aren't exactly the same... especially 2k3's "dark" Leo. But I see your point, but I also have to say that this doesn't necessarily mean Leo couldn't have purposely missed.

And it wasn't aimed at his throat; the sword didn't come as a slash from the side or downward onto the shoulder; the sword was thrust forward point-first at his face.

It wasn't aimed at the face. I've seen it 3 times in theaters and have seen the fight scene I don't know how many times by other means and frame-by-frame. The tip of the sword is past Raph's head before Raph even reacts. The expression of Raph's face and angle of his head after-wards, was more like "Damn, that blade is close... and I'm unprotected", he was shocked. Also, the camera slightly moves away from Raph giving the impression that he moved back and away a little, but he barely moves at all. And most of his movement is after Leo's arm is fully extended.

[Cassidy]

Dang... this topic just keeps going and going and going.

Anyway, I asked my sister (who isn't all that interested in TMNT, but I dragged her to see it anyway) who won. Her answer was:
"Leo won the first round. Raph won the second."

Just 'cause their sharp and pointy doesent make them superior.
For some reason, a Zorro quote came to mind when I read that.

Diego: Do you know how to use that thing?
Alejandro: Of course! The pointy end goes into the other man.
Diego: This going to take a lot of work.

[Warhorse]

Raph didn't dodge it. Leo missed on purpose. The first time I saw the movie I thought he dodged too.

I dissagree with you. There is no proof that Leo did that on purpose. He lost himself in the battle like Raph did, it's just Raph has more experience fighting in this manner and easily overpowerd Leo.!:P

[Shark_Blade]

No he's not lost. You can see in his eyes he's still aware of his surrounding and not absorb with the fight too much. Raph eyes are full of determination,he wants to beat Leo so much.

[Warhorse]

No he's not lost. You can see in his eyes he's still aware of his surrounding and not absorb with the fight too much. Raph eyes are full of determination,he wants to beat Leo so much.

I still dissagree. Not only was Leo aiming towards Raph's head, Leo was also slashing towards Raph's arms! If Raph wasn;t so good at blocking. he could have been limbless now.

He used strategy to beat the Nightwatcher. But then Raphael was revealed, they had an argument, and Leo threw out that "I'm better than you!" Which I think was not a calculated move. I think Leo had had it with Raph, and wanted to put him in his place once and for all.

But Leo went about it the wrong way. He started to use force and muscle instead of his head. And unfortunately for Leo, Raph's force and muscle are far more greater. Now, if Leo was in more control he might have stood a chance, but I will agree with you, in that Raph went completely beserk, and I always thought that when Raph sees red, he's unstopable.

ALso, I have the novel to help back me up, where you do get the Turtles point of view. In the first fight, Raph was stunned that he lost to Leo.

But in the second fight, Leo was shocked that he had just lost to Raph.

if death isn't involved, then definitely raph. more fun that way.

who would you fight?

I'm not sure who I would want to duel with for fun. Probably Leo, I don't have to worry about him potentially going completly mad on me!

[esco]

I dissagree with you. There is no proof that Leo did that on purpose. He lost himself in the battle like Raph did, it's just Raph has more experience fighting in this manner and easily overpowerd Leo.!:P

True there is no proof that he missed on purpose, but there is also no proof that he was lost in battle. Even after the little argument between round 1 and 2, he was calm enough to ask/tell Raph not to fight him, and had his swords at his sides (not exactly ready to blindly charge in, IMO) until Raph made a move.

But even if he didn't miss on purpose, Raphael still didn't dodge it... Leo just straight up missed.

But missed purposely in my eyes.

[Warhorse]

True there is no proof that he missed on purpose, but there is also no proof that he was lost in battle. Even after the little argument between round 1 and 2, he was calm enough to ask/tell Raph not to fight him, and had his swords at his sides (not exactly ready to blindly charge in, IMO) until Raph made a move.

But even if he didn't miss on purpose, Raphael still didn't dodge it... Leo just straight up missed.

But missed purposely in my eyes.

Yes, I can accept that none of us have proof of what we saw with our own eyes.

I'm just wondering if the comic book based on the movie will have a more clearer image with what is going on in the Turtles heads.

So, who would you want to be sparring with if you had the chance?:evilgrin:

[esco]

So, who would you want to be sparring with if you had the chance?:evilgrin:

Donatello... :P

Leo, I guess. Could learn more from "Splinter Jr." than pain.

[triplexxx]

But even if he didn't miss on purpose, Raphael still didn't dodge it... Leo just straight up missed.
Okay, I can buy that. Kinda like in City at War 1, when Leonardo missed the target on the billboard sign, and he jumped up right to the sign.

[bullet]

I'm not sure who I would want to duel with for fun. Probably Leo, I don't have to worry about him potentially going completly mad on me!

true. but then again, leo has on more than one ocassion almost killed his own brothers unintentionally. what if he slips? :P

[triplexxx]

I'd never fight any one of them because:
1. I could never match any of them
2. I don't believe in fighting for fun
3. When somebody comes to me with a knife, I bring a gun.

[Warhorse]

I'd never fight any one of them because:
1. I could never match any of them
2. I don't believe in fighting for fun
3. When somebody comes to me with a knife, I bring a gun.


WTF dude?

Have you ever heard of tournaments, duels and sparring? How in the world are you supposed to properly train if you don't have an opponent to train with? And even if you couldn't come close to the level they are, it would still be a good training skit in self defense. You'd learn something from them, and they could most certaintly learn something valuable from you.

true. but then again, leo has on more than one ocassion almost killed his own brothers unintentionally. what if he slips? :P

But the chance of Leo loosing it compared to Raph is considerable less, so I'd take my chances with Leo. But if I had all four to choose from, Mikey. It would be interesting to see what he could come up with when dueling with me.

[triplexxx]

WTF dude?

Have you ever heard of tournaments, duels and sparring? How in the world are you supposed to properly train if you don't have an opponent to train with? And even if you couldn't come close to the level they are, it would still be a good training skit in self defense. You'd learn something from them, and they could most certaintly learn something valuable from you.
I know, I wasn't refering to sparring for the purpose of training. When they asked "Which TMNT would you fight?", I thought they meant just a for-fun sparring match. There's a difference between sparring for training and sparring for fun. When you spar for training, you have to act serious and take note of what you did and remember for the future.

[TheAnimatedSeries]

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I dont have a problem with guys like Casey, Nightwatcher, DD, Batman beating up common thugs. I also dont have a problem with people robbing stores and stuff to survive or for fun. I follow the g-code, personally. You play, you pay.

Except in real life there are no good guy heroes stopping crimes in action, so no need to think too deep on it. Except the Daredevil, who is a real guy. I met him and he is nice.

[Warhorse]

I dont have a problem with guys like Casey, Nightwatcher, DD, Batman beating up common thugs. I also dont have a problem with people robbing stores and stuff to survive or for fun. I follow the g-code, personally. You play, you pay.

Except in real life there are no good guy heroes stopping crimes in action, so no need to think too deep on it. Except the Daredevil, who is a real guy. I met him and he is nice.


I wonder, how come we don't hear too much about real life vigilantes?

[Revan]

^ interesting. I wonder if there are any

[Fledermaus]

I wonder, how come we don't hear too much about real life vigilantes?

Because they're usually one-time do-gooders, like the anonymous dude with a samurai sword...

and the ones that do dress up and go out every night to rid the world of... "injustice" tend to have problems (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11755145).

[Warhorse]

Because they're usually one-time do-gooders, like the anonymous dude with a samurai sword...

and the ones that do dress up and go out every night to rid the world of... "injustice" tend to have problems (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11755145).

Sad thing is, a vigilante would probably be caught quicker by the police than a real life threatening criminal. So is the way of the world today.

Hmmm. I don't have a badass bike like Raph, but I do have a very fast and fearless horse named Spirit. Hmmmmm........................

[Fledermaus]

Seems to me that those who make a decision to become full-time vigilantes are either disturbed or are in it for their ego. The kind of heroics you read about in the papers are more accidental, and rarely the result of a single-person's crusade.

As you point out, any time a vigilante becomes an icon, he/she will become a target of police and public opinion. Best to work in the shadows and do your good deeds in secret. ;)

[Warhorse]

Seems to me that those who make a decision to become full-time vigilantes are either disturbed or are in it for their ego. The kind of heroics you read about in the papers are more accidental, and rarely the result of a single-person's crusade.

As you point out, any time a vigilante becomes an icon, he/she will become a target of police and public opinion. Best to work in the shadows and do your good deeds in secret. ;)

I do what I can without actually going out and looking for trouble. I was getting in my truck once when some cops were chasing a shoplifter throughout the parking lot in a mall. He was coming in my direction, so I grabbed my club (the one you use to lock your steering wheel in place so it dont get stolen) and threw it at the perps legs. He fell and the cops were able to catch him. They yelled at me for doing it, but one guy had a grin on his face over the ordeal.

I had two other incidents, but I was not a vigilante, I was just at the right place at the right time and had a cell phone on me. One was when I was out on a trail ride when I came across a field with a herd of starving horses. Called the cops and ACC and they rescued the horses. Another time was when I was suspecting my cousin's husband of beating her 2 year old. I gave a tip to a hotline, and sure enough, he was beating her. I didn't know it at the time, but he beat her enough so now she has brain damage. Something that we were all going to right off as her being a slow learner. I'm glad I listened to my gut, but I feel bad that I didn't act sooner.:(

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

They yelled at me for doing it, but one guy had a grin on his face over the ordeal.

They were just pissy because they didn't get to do it. :roll:

I'm glad I listened to my gut, but I feel bad that I didn't act sooner.:(

Hey, at least you acted. There are quite a few people in this world who would've pretended that it wasn't going on. And had you been one of those people, chances are she'd be dead now.

[Rooish]

Day-um, Warhorse, you are a tough lady.

[jenna]

I do what I can without actually going out and looking for trouble. I was getting in my truck once when some cops were chasing a shoplifter throughout the parking lot in a mall. He was coming in my direction, so I grabbed my club (the one you use to lock your steering wheel in place so it dont get stolen) and threw it at the perps legs. He fell and the cops were able to catch him. They yelled at me for doing it, but one guy had a grin on his face over the ordeal.

(

You rock!!

Me, I would have squealed hysterically and dived out of the way and then had a drama queen episode at home telling my hubby how traumatic my day was. :roll:

Your way is much cooler.

[Shark_Blade]

I didn't know it at the time, but he beat her enough so now she has brain damage. Something that we were all going to right off as her being a slow learner. I'm glad I listened to my gut, but I feel bad that I didn't act sooner.:(
On the contrary, you did something. It's better late than never.

And well done with the shoplifter incident.:D

[bullet]

I do what I can without actually going out and looking for trouble. I was getting in my truck once when some cops were chasing a shoplifter throughout the parking lot in a mall. He was coming in my direction, so I grabbed my club (the one you use to lock your steering wheel in place so it dont get stolen) and threw it at the perps legs. He fell and the cops were able to catch him. They yelled at me for doing it, but one guy had a grin on his face over the ordeal.

nice, haha!

i probably would have aimed at his head and got myself arrested instead.

[Warhorse]

BUt have any of you ever picked up one of those clubs? They are like 15 or 20 pounds, and made of steel. ^Above poster is right, if you bash someone in the skull with it, it's going to cause some damage.

But as for petty crime, I'm like Casey Jones and Raph, that just pisses me of more than anything. I really would like to get my hands on some of those car thieves! My truck got stolen once, and I think I said the F word more than Cartman ever has.