Leo vs Raph - Outcome

jezza · 03-24-2007, 02:51 PM

Just to cause contraversy

I have decided to create a poll on to gather peoples opinions on the outcome of Leo and Raphs fight. Who do you think deserved to win? Who was in the right or wrong?

Go

*triplexxx* · 03-24-2007, 02:55 PM

They were both right and wrong. They were both too self-righteous, But they were both making good use of their year apart. It's just that simply being apart is what boosted their egos & provoked this fight in the first place. If splinter had never have separated them in the first place, this never would've happened.

CJStyles · 03-24-2007, 03:08 PM

Will you get off your Splinter's to blame theory lol

*triplexxx* · 03-24-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJStyles

Will you get off your Splinter's to blame theory lol

Why should I? I did the math, I applied the logic, and I've good reason to think he's to blame. Don't like it? Try and stop me.

jezza · 03-24-2007, 03:13 PM

For me I think Raph deserved to win as it would just put Leo in his place somewhat. After the comments Leo was putting forward, I thought they were a bit touchy for someone who is supposedly a leader.

I'm not usually as big fan of Raph losing his temper, it shows a form of weakness taking it out on other people. But in this case I felt it was more justified than it ever has been before.

*Rooish* · 03-24-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Why should I? I did the math, I applied the logic, and I've good reason to think he's to blame. Don't like it? Try and stop me.

I agree with you, triplexxx, but fortunately Splinter seemed a bit more oblivious to his actions in this movie than in previous versions. He was just a jolly old man. He probably didn't understand fully the conflict it would cause.

johnnyblaze · 03-24-2007, 03:19 PM

he seemed convinced that they could work it out and just plain happy to have all of his sons back together again. plus he did realize that something was wrong with Raph, and kept pushing Leo to mend the team he is supposed to lead. I bet however that he didn't think it would get to the point where the 2 would beat each other up

Tansut · 03-24-2007, 03:38 PM

I don't really think there was any blame to be put on anyone, it was just an inevitable sibling fight. Leo, after having been gone for so long, was simply trying to live up to Splinter's expectations and not disappoint while Raph was frustrated that the city wasn't being protected and that they still weren't doing anything about it.

Initially I thought the "I'm better than you" comment by Leo was a bit of a putdown, but really it's just Leo getting to the point of why he's the leader. He was tired of Raph not listening and so he put it bluntly, maybe too bluntly. I also think Leo won the fight, but he stopped in shock once his katanas were broken. You could see him thinking "Whoa...he broke them?" right before he was knocked down because he wasn't expecting Raph to go that far, because at that point Raph was just in a rage and wasn't seeing Leo as Leo, but as the target of all his anger and hate.

Whatever ya think, I think we all can agree that was a fantastic sequence.

Mr. Arctic · 03-24-2007, 03:39 PM

i posted this on imdb in a forum with a similar discussion:
----------

you guys are all wrong. that scene plays subtly but brilliantly, and its easy to miss the little details and nuances of the drama and subtext in the dialogue and animation.

***SPOILERS***

in truth, leo knew exactly what he was doing. he was provoking raph because he knew that the only way he could get through to him was through his anger. saying something so arrogant was a way of leo speaking to raph "in his own language"-- which, to me, indicates that it wasn't really intended to be arrogant, but to provoke and prove a point. the source of tension between raph and leo all these years (aside from their naturally clashing personality types) has been that raph is jealous that splinter chose leo as leader and not him.

raph took leo's "i'm better than you" to be a challenge to his fighting skills-- leo knew he would because raph is a hothead and his solution to everything is fighting.

but the whole purpose of the fight was for leo to prove to raph how impulsive and driven by anger he is, and that is why he is incapable of being a leader.

it is also clear that leo gave up the fight to prove a point because he wanted raph to see what he was doing: dividing the turtles. leo obviously had the upper hand in the fight before, and he also knew that his swords were gonna break. by giving up the fight, leo was basically saying, "it doesn't matter who is better individually because we're a team"-- and thats why raph runs away: because he realizes leo's point, because he is ashamed for fighting his brother (who was never truly trying to beat him), and that he has been the source of the problem.

by the end of the fight, raph realizes that when leo says "im better than you", he really means that he is a better leader, not fighter.

all of this is proven true later when raph speaks to splinter and he says "i know why you picked him, now." this shows that raph understood exactly what leo was trying to prove by fighting him and then by giving up the fight by basically his point is: "it doesnt matter which of us is a better fighter, but it matters that we function as a team, and we each have our roles."

so we will never know who really is the better fighter, but we could speculate.

and just so people won't say that i'm saying this to hate on raph, i'm stating plainly that raph is actually my favorite turtle.

"Don't ever listen to anyone on IMDb except ChimpCadet."
----------

Fledermaus · 03-24-2007, 03:46 PM

I pretty much agree with Mr. Arctic's analysis, EXCEPT that I don't think Leo was expecting to be beaten. In the end though, he still managed to prove his point, despite the fact that he'd lost the physical fight -- I don't think he meant for it to happen.

One of the best face-offs I've ever seen in a movie, period.

*R-iZZy* · 03-24-2007, 04:00 PM

Mr. Arctic, that's a spot-on analysis of that scene. Perfectly put!

TerranigmaFreak · 03-24-2007, 04:01 PM

They should both stop fighting.

johnnyblaze · 03-24-2007, 04:44 PM

i'm sure there will still be disagreements in the future but the 2 really did seem like they reached each other after that brawl. there will definatly be some growth in their relationship

*Spitfire* · 03-24-2007, 04:46 PM

Raph needed to win. It hit Leo off his high horse. The line "I'm better then you" really showed Leo's true colors. Something I've waited awhile to hear him say. And Raph showed him whose boss.

~~ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael~~ · 03-24-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

Raph needed to win. It hit Leo off his high horse. The line "I'm better then you" really showed Leo's true colors. Something I've waited awhile to hear him say. And Raph showed him whose boss.

Well said dude. Leo needed Raph to knock some sense into him, at knock he did.

And triplexxx, would you give up this ridiculous anti-Splinter campaign of yours. Jesus, it's getting old.

johnnyblaze · 03-24-2007, 04:53 PM

plus I gotta say I loved the sick grin Raph had on his face when he pinned Leo down, compared to the look of dissapointment/sadness on Leo's face. Not to mention Raph looking at Leo face to face and that look of his suddenly turning into a look of sad realization

johnnyblaze · 03-24-2007, 04:55 PM

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

~~ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael~~ · 03-24-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

Because, like Raph said, when leo came back he just expected the other Turtles to fall in line again. He just expected everything to be like it was before with him in command, not taking the personal feelings of his brothers into account. He was too focused on being the perfect leader, and not enough on just being they're brother.

johnnyblaze · 03-24-2007, 05:05 PM

I still don't see how his expecting his brothers to listen to him is him being on a high horse but to each their own I guess

*Spitfire* · 03-24-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

Leo was full of himself. he tracks down the Nightwatcher and acts like a bad ass in front of him trying to get him to stop being a hero. Like "This is my town and you can't fight crime here" Thats a spit in Raph's face because Raph had been keeping crime in check while Leo was gone*This is expressed alot in the game* so I'd be pissed to.

In the game though Leo calls Raph a criminal which pisses him off even more.

View Poll Results: Who should have won the fight?
Leo deserved to win	17	19.10%
Raph deserved to win	48	53.93%
It should have been a tie	9	10.11%
I wish those two would stop fighting	15	16.85%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

03-24-2007, 02:51 PM	#1
jezza Foot Soldier Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Posts: 170	Leo vs Raph - Outcome Just to cause contraversy I have decided to create a poll on to gather peoples opinions on the outcome of Leo and Raphs fight. Who do you think deserved to win? Who was in the right or wrong? Go __________________ "You fight as brothers"

03-24-2007, 02:55 PM	#2
triplexxx Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,809	They were both right and wrong. They were both too self-righteous, But they were both making good use of their year apart. It's just that simply being apart is what boosted their egos & provoked this fight in the first place. If splinter had never have separated them in the first place, this never would've happened. __________________ Please don't shoot me Mr. Big Mike. I'm too young and good-looking to die, well too young. I got a father, I got a mother, I got a grandmother, I got a little sister...and a little brother this high (raises hand), and a little brother this high (lowers hand), and little brother this high (lowers hand), and a little brother this high (lowers hand), and a little brother this high (lowers hand) and then I got a great big brother this high (slaps gun and runs). "Fright Night" - Three Stooges

03-24-2007, 03:08 PM	#3
CJStyles Hench Mutant Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 277	Will you get off your Splinter's to blame theory lol __________________

03-24-2007, 03:13 PM	#5
jezza Foot Soldier Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Posts: 170	For me I think Raph deserved to win as it would just put Leo in his place somewhat. After the comments Leo was putting forward, I thought they were a bit touchy for someone who is supposedly a leader. I'm not usually as big fan of Raph losing his temper, it shows a form of weakness taking it out on other people. But in this case I felt it was more justified than it ever has been before. __________________ "You fight as brothers"

03-24-2007, 03:19 PM	#7
johnnyblaze Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 677	he seemed convinced that they could work it out and just plain happy to have all of his sons back together again. plus he did realize that something was wrong with Raph, and kept pushing Leo to mend the team he is supposed to lead. I bet however that he didn't think it would get to the point where the 2 would beat each other up

03-24-2007, 03:38 PM	#8
Tansut Thug Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 53	I don't really think there was any blame to be put on anyone, it was just an inevitable sibling fight. Leo, after having been gone for so long, was simply trying to live up to Splinter's expectations and not disappoint while Raph was frustrated that the city wasn't being protected and that they still weren't doing anything about it. Initially I thought the "I'm better than you" comment by Leo was a bit of a putdown, but really it's just Leo getting to the point of why he's the leader. He was tired of Raph not listening and so he put it bluntly, maybe too bluntly. I also think Leo won the fight, but he stopped in shock once his katanas were broken. You could see him thinking "Whoa...he broke them?" right before he was knocked down because he wasn't expecting Raph to go that far, because at that point Raph was just in a rage and wasn't seeing Leo as Leo, but as the target of all his anger and hate. Whatever ya think, I think we all can agree that was a fantastic sequence.

03-24-2007, 03:39 PM	#9
Mr. Arctic Thug Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oxnard, CA (an hour N of L.A.) Posts: 54	i posted this on imdb in a forum with a similar discussion: ---------- you guys are all wrong. that scene plays subtly but brilliantly, and its easy to miss the little details and nuances of the drama and subtext in the dialogue and animation. *SPOILERS* in truth, leo knew exactly what he was doing. he was provoking raph because he knew that the only way he could get through to him was through his anger. saying something so arrogant was a way of leo speaking to raph "in his own language"-- which, to me, indicates that it wasn't really intended to be arrogant, but to provoke and prove a point. the source of tension between raph and leo all these years (aside from their naturally clashing personality types) has been that raph is jealous that splinter chose leo as leader and not him. raph took leo's "i'm better than you" to be a challenge to his fighting skills-- leo knew he would because raph is a hothead and his solution to everything is fighting. but the whole purpose of the fight was for leo to prove to raph how impulsive and driven by anger he is, and that is why he is incapable of being a leader. it is also clear that leo gave up the fight to prove a point because he wanted raph to see what he was doing: dividing the turtles. leo obviously had the upper hand in the fight before, and he also knew that his swords were gonna break. by giving up the fight, leo was basically saying, "it doesn't matter who is better individually because we're a team"-- and thats why raph runs away: because he realizes leo's point, because he is ashamed for fighting his brother (who was never truly trying to beat him), and that he has been the source of the problem. by the end of the fight, raph realizes that when leo says "im better than you", he really means that he is a better leader, not fighter. all of this is proven true later when raph speaks to splinter and he says "i know why you picked him, now." this shows that raph understood exactly what leo was trying to prove by fighting him and then by giving up the fight by basically his point is: "it doesnt matter which of us is a better fighter, but it matters that we function as a team, and we each have our roles." so we will never know who really is the better fighter, but we could speculate. and just so people won't say that i'm saying this to hate on raph, i'm stating plainly that raph is actually my favorite turtle. "Don't ever listen to anyone on IMDb except ChimpCadet." ----------

03-24-2007, 03:46 PM	#10
Fledermaus Mad Scientist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,115	I pretty much agree with Mr. Arctic's analysis, EXCEPT that I don't think Leo was expecting to be beaten. In the end though, he still managed to prove his point, despite the fact that he'd lost the physical fight -- I don't think he meant for it to happen. One of the best face-offs I've ever seen in a movie, period. __________________ We're calling it a freeway. Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past. I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night! Soon there will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food! Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see! My God... It'll be beautiful.

03-24-2007, 04:00 PM	#11
R-iZZy The Long Con Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: G'ville, FL (Gator Country), USA Posts: 3,007	Mr. Arctic, that's a spot-on analysis of that scene. Perfectly put! __________________

03-24-2007, 04:01 PM	#12
TerranigmaFreak Stone Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 715	They should both stop fighting. __________________ First footage of the new R rated TMNT movie.

03-24-2007, 04:44 PM	#13
johnnyblaze Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 677	i'm sure there will still be disagreements in the future but the 2 really did seem like they reached each other after that brawl. there will definatly be some growth in their relationship

03-24-2007, 04:46 PM	#14
Spitfire Writer • Director Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 12,035	Raph needed to win. It hit Leo off his high horse. The line "I'm better then you" really showed Leo's true colors. Something I've waited awhile to hear him say. And Raph showed him whose boss. __________________ Check out my online portfolio http://www.christopherpelletier.com/

03-24-2007, 04:53 PM	#16
johnnyblaze Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 677	plus I gotta say I loved the sick grin Raph had on his face when he pinned Leo down, compared to the look of dissapointment/sadness on Leo's face. Not to mention Raph looking at Leo face to face and that look of his suddenly turning into a look of sad realization

03-24-2007, 04:55 PM	#17
johnnyblaze Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 677	but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

03-24-2007, 05:05 PM	#19
johnnyblaze Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 677	I still don't see how his expecting his brothers to listen to him is him being on a high horse but to each their own I guess