Master Splinter is always right. (Mirage comics)

[Fledermaus]

So we know him as the wise old sage, the infallible father figure, the cool sensei we wish we could have in our lives. But after reading issue 1, the truth is that Splinter, father, sensei, master... trained the TMNT, his students, his sons to kill a man out of vengeance.

http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/volume01/01/01cover5.jpg

This reignites a cycle of vengeance supposedly begun by Oroku Nagi who first attacked Tang Shen out of jealousy, and I won't repeat that story. Instead I will quote Time Mistress who happened to sum up my observations in one of her posts:

Overall, the cycle of revenge is more prominant in Mirage than one of justice, even though the bad guys derseve what they get. Nagi beats Shen. Yoshi kills Nagi. Saki kills Yoshi and Shen. Turtles "kill" Saki. The Foot try to kill the Turtles. Karai tries to make peace. The Foot kill Karai's daughter as a warning not to make peace. Karai propositions the Turtles kill the Elite, they do. And finally the clan war is over, for now. But it could easily descent into war again at any time.

My question deals with whether the Mirage TMNT ever acknowledged this fact: they were primarily trained for a purpose that was dishonorable "ninja" at its core. Saki, as far as I know, posed no direct threat to them or New York -- not enough that the only remedy was assassination, not enough that it was mentioned. They attacked him, not out of defense but out of one mutated rat-man's selfish desire to "even the score." The TMNT followed Splinter without question (in issue 1 at least) and then had to reap the consequences of their blind obedience to his wishes.

Now, I am sure there have been discussions on this topic, but I don't know where those are and I'd rather not wait on this issue as I am short on time.

So... who's read the comics and is willing to share their knowledge (or at least back up their speculations with evidence from the original source material)?

[Sage Ninja]

whoa we touched upon this in a thread I started a few months back called Splinter Has Nobody which got pretty heated and contraversial. But it dealt mainly with the New toon version of Splinter, which gave him a more honorable reason to want Shredder out of the way. All though you can still see his loathing and desire for revenge (or has he puts it justice) come through in the episodes that involve the turtles meeting the Shredder for the first time.

My opinion, Splinter is a flawed yet very nuanced character that isn't perfect and certainly isn;'t always right. He did indeed train the boys to kill Saki out of vengence and nothing else really honorable like he's been made to be in other mediums. Which might people raise their eye brows in disapproval, but if you put your self in Splinter's place and some you loved was murdered--wouldn't you want to get them too? I don't think Splinter showed good judgment in this vengence thing and its reprecussions, but I don;t think he intentinally put the turtles lives in danger.

[Fledermaus]

Yeah, but you could say that Saki loved his brother and wanted "justice" as well.

Vengeance is vengeance. Whether he wanted harm to come to his sons or not, Splinter did put his sons in harm's way, initially at least. I'm sure that, after seeing one of his sons nearly beaten to death, and then all that lovely City at War Drama he must have had second thoughts/regrets.

Again, I am mostly interested in how the TMNT themselves might have reacted to or reflected on this interesting aspect of their father and the role of vengeance in their lives. Some of the turtles, as we know, are generally content with following orders from their Sensei without question. One of them, or perhaps more (I don't know since I'm no Mirage TMNT expert) as we all know tends to rebel a lot more. I'm curious whether any of them actually questioned Splinter or their alleged "task at hand." If, when and where this happened is what I'd like to know.

[Scandia]

From what I gather, Splinter did not raise the Turtles strictly to commit vengeance. If that were the case, there Splinter would have treated his Turtles WAY worse. He would have just hardened them to be tough. He would not have taught them anything else. He would have made them be bloodthirsty savages- nothing like the Turtles we see. Sure sure, his original motivation may not have been the noblest. But he still raised the Turtles with love and care. Otherwise he would not have taught them calligraphy (like in "My Hero") or allowed them to have individuality of their own. Splinter would not have meditated nor encouraged his students to meditate. And they would not be calling him "father" for sure if all Splinter cared was about violent revenge.

[The Shelf]

The way I see it, Splinter may have wanted vengeance, but he was exacting justice as well. Just because Saki didn't pose a direct threat to the turtles, doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be executed. He murdered two people, possibly more. Now you could maybe argue that Saki was right to kill Yoshi since he murdered Nagi (though I disagree as I'm about to explain), but he certainly had no right to kill Tang Shen, and deserved to be executed if only for that reason alone. Aside from that, Yoshi had every right to kill Nagi because he entered Tang Shen's home and beat her. Yoshi killed Nagi out of defense.

Murder is certainly wrong, but if someone enters your home and attacks you or anyone else, you have the right to defend yourself or the other people. If you kill them, the fault is their own, not yours. It would certainly be better not to kill them even though they attacked you and yours, but if you do, then no one can blame you because you were acting out of defense.

So, I would hardly call the Mirage story an endless cycle of revenge, but perhaps justice isn't emphasized enough. Nagi beat Tang Shen out of jealousy, Yoshi killed Nagi out of defense, Saki murdered Yoshi and Tang Shen out of vengeance, the turtles executed Saki for his two murders, and the Foot tried to kill the turtles out of vengeance until Karai opted for peace which could only be had by killing the Elite.

Yoshi, Splinter, the turtles, and Karai all had good reasons for the murders they committed (not sure if Karai ever killed anyone because I haven't read CaW yet), though vengeance may have been an added "benefit" for them; but Nagi, Saki, and the Foot were only ever driven by jealousy and vengeance.

Now, I think the biggest fault of Splinter that many people will try to argue for is that he put the turtles' lives at risk. But did he have a good reason for sending them to kill Saki rather than killing Saki himself? If Splinter was afraid of acting out of revenge, then yes, he had a good reason for not killing Saki himself. If this is indeed the case, then Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably so that they could carry out his task in his name since his willpower might prove too weak. That is not to say that he raised them just to assassinate Saki. On the contrary, he loved and cherished them all the more because he was training them to be better than him, to be stronger than him in mind and body, to succeed where he feared he would fail -- that is, to exact justice on Saki without exacting revenge in the process.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but for those who think Splinter contributed to the revenge-cycle, I could just as easily argue that all his actions -- from raising and training the turtles to kill Saki to not joining them in the fight -- were intended to escape it. Did he succeed? Well, yes. Again, I haven't read CaW, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Karai realize that the turtles had every reason to kill Saki? Isn't that why she opted for peace? Eventually, they had peace, and I think Splinter's actions contributed to that. If Splinter had exacted justice on Saki, he likely would have given in to his revenge and done a lot more damage than just killing Saki. I'm not exactly sure what he might have done, though, because this is all hypothetical anyway.

Of course, the ideal thing would be for Splinter to forgive Saki and move on, but it was likely that Saki would ruin more people's lives in the future, and Splinter wanted to prevent that from happening.

[Ava Collier]

Shelf person...that was beautiful ^_^
I can't really add anything. I'm not familiar with the comics at all. The only thing I can really say, is Master Splinter was an animal. A rat. Rats don't do things for revenge, but humans do. Wouldn't becoming human-like have been a very new and confusing thing? He wouldn't have had those emotions before. A thirst for vengence displays his human side.

[odupianist]

He did indeed train the boys to kill Saki out of vengence and nothing else really honorable like he's been made to be in other mediums.

My thought process is if he trained them to kill Saki, what was his planned for these trained ninjas after that was done? Just sit around and get fat? Why spend all that time training these ninja for one small task. Granted, it didn't turn out to be a small task, but still.

Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably

He succeeded in that. Cause if you really want to break it down, Leo just shoved a sword in him. They gave him the option to commit seppuku (sp?). Don threw the bo staff at Saki in self defense. I mean who really wants to be blown up by a termite grenade. Not me, but I could be in the minority :P

[The Shelf]

My thought process is if he trained them to kill Saki, what was his planned for these trained ninjas after that was done? Just sit around and get fat? Why spend all that time training these ninja for one small task. Granted, it didn't turn out to be a small task, but still.

Hmm, well as far as that goes, I don't think he had a plan for them after that except to live their lives peaceably and in the way that they each saw fit which is essentially what they have done in the comics since then (aside from all the adventures they get thrust into). That's why, as Scandia mentioned above, he encouraged the turtles' individuality and training. The benefits of the individuality is obvious, but the training benefited the turtles by giving them discipline. I'm certain Splinter would have taught the turtles martial arts regardless of whether he wanted them to kill Saki or not. For one, they would need to be capable of defending themselves in a world that would likely never accept them because they were freaks. For another, all the training they went through kept them focused and disciplined so they would be capable of living their lives to the fullest when he was no longer around to help them. Most parents do this in raising their own children, but they generally train their children in ways other than martial arts. For Splinter, though, martial arts was the biggest thing he knew, so he passed that on to the turtles along with all of his other teachings.

Hmm... I really wish I could keep these posts shorter. :P

[wyze2099]

My take on this is that as much as we're discussing whether or not it was right for Splinter to raises his sons to participate in the cycle of violence, we're not necessarily seeing it from their perspective. Splinter was raised by a ninja and apparently learned everything he knew from Mirage-verse ninja ideals of honor and retribution. So, it seems to me that Splinter set his sons on this path -- one of old-world Bushido -- because he knew of no other path.

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts. He told them when the time was right and not before, so they could practice their art without it being tainted by the same darkness that had darkened the Foot ... and that had probably darkened him to an extent as well.

[jenna]

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts. He told them when the time was right and not before, so they could practice their art without it being tainted by the same darkness that had darkened the Foot ... and that had probably darkened him to an extent as well.

Like Ava I haven't read many of the comics so I don't know the official Mirage line, but I agree that the 2k3 approach was good as mentioned above by the very wise Wyze...

I also liked that in 2k3 it was suggested that Splinter trained them to fight because he anticipated them needing to defend themselves against a world which would never accept them. Much more altruistic than vengeance.

[odupianist]

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts.

Initially I didn't like that because I was hoping for more of a comic based cartoon, but I do agree it is more realistic.

[jenna]

Initially I didn't like that because I was hoping for more of a comic based cartoon, but I do agree it is more realistic.

If I had read the comics first as a background I would probably agree with you.

but... I'm doing it all backwards!!:lol:

[Sage Ninja]

Now, I think the biggest fault of Splinter that many people will try to argue for is that he put the turtles' lives at risk. But did he have a good reason for sending them to kill Saki rather than killing Saki himself? If Splinter was afraid of acting out of revenge, then yes, he had a good reason for not killing Saki himself. If this is indeed the case, then Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably so that they could carry out his task in his name since his willpower might prove too weak. That is not to say that he raised them just to assassinate Saki. On the contrary, he loved and cherished them all the more because he was training them to be better than him, to be stronger than him in mind and body, to succeed where he feared he would fail -- that is, to exact justice on Saki without exacting revenge in the process.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but for those who think Splinter contributed to the revenge-cycle, I could just as easily argue that all his actions -- from raising and training the turtles to kill Saki to not joining them in the fight -- were intended to escape it. Did he succeed? Well, yes. Again, I haven't read CaW, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Karai realize that the turtles had every reason to kill Saki? Isn't that why she opted for peace? Eventually, they had peace, and I think Splinter's actions contributed to that. If Splinter had exacted justice on Saki, he likely would have given in to his revenge and done a lot more damage than just killing Saki. I'm not exactly sure what he might have done, though, because this is all hypothetical anyway.

Actually if Splinter decided to train the turtles so that they could confront Saki and take him out in his stead because he felt he might not have the will power to do it for the honorable reasons then...I some what have a problem with that. If you want to "kill" some one to avenge some one you love, do it your self and get your own hands dirty. That almost seems cowardly to train some one else to do it for you, it alsmost appears like he didn't want to his own hands dirty. I would under stand if he trained them because he is an old rat and couldn't physically do for him self as a result (some have mentioned that in the comic Splinter isn't as viril as he is made out to be in other mediums), and thats why he had the turtles confront Saki in his stead.

And as to what the turtles think about it. I think since they where trained from birth--er, mutation, to live the way of the ninja and their traditions (aka honor killings and obeydiance to their master) and walk the path of the warrior, that they had no real opinion of what they where supposed due to their up bringing. They did what they they had to. In other wrods I think the turtles morals and ethics have been shaped in a diffrent way that is diffrent from the western christian view, and there for make diffrent judments on what is right or wrong.

I have never read the comics so I don't know how the turtles act or behave in that medium. Has there ever been any indication that one of the turtles have expressed moral issues or reluctance in doing certain acts because they felt it was wrong in the comics?

[Spawn Guy]

As far as killing Shredder, no.

Also as for the whole "Splinter doing it himself thing", if he did what would be the point of the turtles? I'm pretty sure it was a parody of a common theme in martail arts films where the pupil has to take on the bad guy because the sensi can't. I think it's important to remeber that this was two comic book fans doing a one shot prodgect at the time, not a deep phycological drama.

Splinter is old in the comics. Everyone should know by now he died of a herat attack. In the second issue he almost lost his life to a bunch of mousers. He's still got the skills, but yeah, he's old. Take that for what you will. And as for putting them in danger, has anyone read the first issue over on the offical site? Easiest thing in the world to do. The boys kick ass. They take down Shredder with team work, something everyone has gone on about at some point.

Splinter is flawed or whatever. A major plot point in these characters lives hinges on that. Gotten plenty of fun out of it to.

[odupianist]

Something I just thought of that Spawn Guy brought up. This was a one shot deal. Eastman and Laird were only doing one issue initially. That's something to keep in mind if you're looking at other variables beside the comic and story itself.

[Scandia]

If the Turtles' only purpose was to get rid of Shredder, the comic would have had a very short run. There would be no need for April or Casey. Or Karai. Or any of the aliens and other secondary characters. It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody. The OT could have happened- but it would still be very different. And there would be no need for the 4 different personalities.

[Spawn Guy]

It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody.

Which was what it was supposed to be at the time.

[Andrew NDB]

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts.

It suits a kid's cartoon well the way it's changed in 2K3. A reasonable compromise, but do keep in mind that's all it is -- no way Fox would allow the Turtles to be brought up for assassination/a revenge killing.

[Andrew NDB]

If the Turtles' only purpose was to get rid of Shredder, the comic would have had a very short run. There would be no need for April or Casey. Or Karai. Or any of the aliens and other secondary characters. It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody. The OT could have happened- but it would still be very different. And there would be no need for the 4 different personalities.

That's what the beauty of it is, and some of the best Mirage stories are ones that have touched on it.

It's literally like, "Hey, guys... we fulfilled our duty -- we killed Shredder. Now what?" And they each try to rise up and find purpose in their lives (with adventurous pitstops along the way, sure). In this it's quite relateable to anyone. You finish school, or you are stuck in a dead-end job, you will often ask yourself, "What do I do now? Where do I go?"

[Scandia]

But Splinter gave them the tools and training to fight evil in general. He did not just brainwash them to "kill Saki".

And if Saki was the Shredder, he probably was causing other problems as well. As someone here said, Tang Shen was totally innocent AND Hamato Yoshi had only killed Nagi in self-defense. Yoshi did not intend to. Hence he and Tang Shen ran off to America.

[Andrew NDB]

But Splinter gave them the tools and training to fight evil in general.

Right, but not the objective of fighting evil, or crime, or anything like that.

He did not just brainwash them to "kill Saki".

No one's suggesting he did, but that was the sole purpose to him teaching them ninjitsu. Along the years was he a kind-hearted father figure to them, guiding each of them when need be and encouraging individuality? Of course, but at the end of the day, the Shredder still needs a killin'!

And if Saki was the Shredder, he probably was causing other problems as well. As someone here said, Tang Shen was totally innocent AND Hamato Yoshi had only killed Nagi in self-defense. Yoshi did not intend to. Hence he and Tang Shen ran off to America.

The whole thing isn't black and white. Even if Nagi roughed up Shen a little bit that still didn't give Hamato Yoshi the right to outright kill Nagi. In many ways, Saki's vengeance makes a whole lot more sense than Splinter's, as Saki's is more of an "eye for an eye" type of deal, if that makes any sense. Saki's brother was killed for no good reason, but Hamato Yoshi was killed for a good reason.

Anyway, the revenge thing kind of goes round and round until the Turtles sort of call it in "City at War." Great stuff.

[Spawn Guy]

Rapeing a woman isn't a good reason? Yoshi flew into uncontrolled rage when he saw what Nagi was doing. But yeah, that's the beauty of Mirage City at War. Vol2 as well.

[The Shelf]

The whole thing isn't black and white. Even if Nagi roughed up Shen a little bit that still didn't give Hamato Yoshi the right to outright kill Nagi. In many ways, Saki's vengeance makes a whole lot more sense than Splinter's, as Saki's is more of an "eye for an eye" type of deal, if that makes any sense. Saki's brother was killed for no good reason, but Hamato Yoshi was killed for a good reason.

Even if you argue that Yoshi deserved to be killed by Saki (which I disagree with), Tang Shen certainly didn't. Saki went too far when he killed her, and Splinter was right to have him killed.

As far as Yoshi goes though... If someone breaks into my house and starts beating my wife or girlfriend, I have every right to kill him to defend her. She's the innocent one, the intruder isn't. If Yoshi didn't kill Nagi, he probably would have come back later with greater force and killed them both anyway. There's no way on earth you can convince me that Yoshi was wrong to kill Nagi.

[Andrew NDB]

Rape is wrong... but grounds for murder?

[Spawn Guy]

Lesser of two evils. Weird, I know. But it's hardly as if Shredder or his brother were innocent little so and sos.

[The Shelf]

Rape is wrong... but grounds for murder?

Well, yes, but we're not talking about rape. Nagi intended to murder Tang Shen. I believe his exact words were, "Hah, Yoshi dog! If I can't have this wench... Then no one will!" (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg13.jpg)

According to this (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm):

"A man may defend himself and even commit a homicide for the prevention of any forcible and atrocious crime, which if completed would amount to a felony; and of course under the like circumstances, mayhem, wounding and battery would be excusable at common law. A man may repel force by force in defence of his person, property or habitation, against any one who manifests, intends, attempts, or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a forcible felony, such as murder, rape, robbery, arson, burglary and the like. In these cases he is not required to retreat, but he may resist and even pursue his adversary, until he has secured himself from all danger." (emphasis mine)

Even though it's no longer relevant to the discussion, you should note that intent to rape is included in there too.

And to extend that to close relations such as Tang Shen:
"The party attacked may undoubtedly defend himself, and the law further sanctions the mutual and reciprocal defence of such as stand in the near relations of hushand and wife, patent and child, and master and servant." (emphasis mine)

Granted, Tang Shen wasn't Yoshi's wife yet, but I've seen other definitions of self-defense that would extend this definition to someone such as her.

Also granted, this wasn't necessarily the law in Japan, but if anyone seriously wants to try that argument, then I'm afraid I can't defend against it.

[Fledermaus]

Interesting discussion while I've been gone.

Anyways... keeping in mind that issue 1 was initially meant to be stand-alone, one could look at Splinter as a multiplexed character. As Andrew NDB pointed out, while he was a loving father, wise sage and all that wholesome stuff, he was also out for payback and "justice" himself. I put justice in quotes because of... Hm. Well let's put it this way. There are several horrible people on this planet who probably deserve(d) to be put to death. Truth is there are/were repercussions for killing those people. Sometimes they alone are the head of power and killing them will end the misery. Other times, it can further arouse their armies, followers, and allies.

Splinter, for whatever reason, did not consider this a serious enough reason to seek more byzantine means of putting an end to Saki. The TMNT were his beloved sons. At the same time, they were his students, his loyal taskforce that would follow him without question.

Sort of like your parents (some of us anyway). On the one hand, they love us. On the other hand, they want to pressure us sometimes to do what they want... even if it is (subconsciously) self-seeking. Go to this university. Pick that major. Don't date people who aren't a certain race. :roll: Mom and Dad aren't always right, but it doesn't mean they aren't loving parents. Just because they're sometimes wrong doesn't make them "malicious." Real people... I think it's risky to try summing anyone up as completely one thing or the other.

Of course, no one in the TMNT world is real, but at least in the Mirage comics it's hard I think to slap a simple label on any of the TMNT, including their Sensei.

[Andrew NDB]

True... and actually we shouldn't even mention "rape" because we're given no direct evidence there was any rape.

Let's put things in perspective.

First scenario : Hamato Yoshi walks in on Oroku Nagi beating up Tang Shen, his girlfriend. Nagi mentions if he can't have her that no one will. He freaks out and quickly murders Oroku Nagi. Would Nagi have actually murdered Tang Shen? We have no idea, and will never know.

Second scenario : Oroku Nagi's younger brother finds and kills Hamato Yoshi for killing his big bro.

Quip pro quo. Saki's motive seems more solid, at least to me, though I can't say I wouldn't have reacted exactly the way Yoshi did.

[aabxx]

If you wanna see conflict between Splinter and one of the turtles, read volume 3... of course, that volume isn't "canon" but still... it goes deeper into the relationship between Splinter and the turtles.

Btw, that might also have inspired Munroe...

[Coola Yagami]

details...? please??

[Spawn Guy]

Are we talking Shredder Raph? He says "You make a better grandparent than a parent" or something along those lines when Splinter is taking care of Shadow. I don't know what brought that on, although the discussion got pretty heated when they brought up the matter of an actual alliegence with the Foot.

[Andrew NDB]

Also a bit of Leo vs. Raph in Vol. 3 when Raph is going around in the armor of the Shredder...

[Spawn Guy]

Which issue?

[Andrew NDB]

Which issue?

You're going to make me get my boxes out, aren't you? All right, I'll post a bit later, maybe with some scans.

[Spawn Guy]

Your fingers say "No, no..", but your fanboyisim sayd "Yes! Yes!".

[The Shelf]

Would Nagi have actually murdered Tang Shen? We have no idea, and will never know.

So you're saying that Yoshi should have stood by and allowed Nagi to continue beating her to death before he decided to respond with equal (aka, deadly) force?

Second scenario : Oroku Nagi's younger brother finds and kills Hamato Yoshi for killing his big bro.

Quip pro quo. Saki's motive seems more solid, at least to me, though I can't say I wouldn't have reacted exactly the way Yoshi did.

And you still haven't explained how Saki was right to kill Tang Shen. Even if Yoshi was wrong and Saki was justified in killing Yoshi, Splinter had every right to bring justice down on Saki's head for killing Tang Shen, if not for Yoshi.

[Andrew NDB]

So you're saying that Yoshi should have stood by and allowed Nagi to continue beating her to death before he decided to respond with equal (aka, deadly) force?

Should he have rushed him and beat him up, perhaps even into a coma? Absolutely. But maybe stopped short of lethal force?

And you still haven't explained how Saki was right to kill Tang Shen. Even if Yoshi was wrong and Saki was justified in killing Yoshi, Splinter had every right to bring justice down on Saki's head for killing Tang Shen, if not for Yoshi.

Heh, I guess I did forget about Tang Shen there, didn't I? No, Saki certainly wasn't justified in any way in a double murder like that.

[The Shelf]

Should he have rushed him and beat him up, perhaps even into a coma? Absolutely. But maybe stopped short of lethal force?

Well, how exactly do you do that, though? Keep in mind that we have no idea if he intended to kill Nagi. He may have been trying to beat him into a coma, but it's easy to accidentally kill someone when you're applying that kind of force. I agree that Yoshi should have stopped short of killing Nagi, but my point is that you can't blame him for doing it, whether accidentally or intentionally, and neither does our own law from what I've seen and heard. Saki had reason to want Yoshi dead, but as you've just agreed, he was still evil because he killed Tang Shen as well, and he deserved to be killed for that reason alone.

[Scandia]

For all we know, Yoshi could have just pulled Nagi off Tang Shen and thrown him. And Nagi landed headfirst into a wall and died on the spot. And Yoshi just freaked out- not to mention he could not do anything else after Nagi died. So he just fled with Tang Shen. Totally did not intend to kill Nagi- just get him away from Tang Shen.

[Spawn Guy]

The blood on his hands after he emerged from a "Red haze" says diffrent.

[Scandia]

Who knows if he grabbed Nagi trying to wake him up and there was blood from an open wound indeed?

[Spawn Guy]

Eastman and Laird.

[Aignatius]

Sure it started out as something to do with vengeance, but their training by Splinter helped them survive.
They learned other valuable lessons, like self control, developing their personal strengths, etc. (Considering some of the brothers struggled more with self control than others, they learned to exercise it well enough in the long run)
For instance the latest Mirage series where Raph turned into a monster, he could tap into his ability to find inner balance, and it brought him out of the his feral mode, thanks to Splinter's help.
Splinter raised four intelligent creatures to live in a world that was mostly hostile toward them. While they did initiate the conflict with Shredder, he was someone who had to be stopped or many innocents would be affected later on.
It may look bad for Splinter at first, but there was enough known about his antagonist that sometimes an effective defense is a good offense.
It's been said by some of the general public that the turtles are violent. If they are left alone, they aren't into violence. Raph may like to get into fights, but he justifies them with crime fighting. Doesn't mean they all want that.
Most often it is that violence comes upon them. While there are some conflicts that seem to have been started by them, it turned out to be a matter of halting something before it got way out of hand.
Evil prevails when good people do nothing.
Seems so easy to judge someone in a situation with which one is not familiar, isn't it? They can't just call the cops or the Nationa Guard like we humans can, when there's people trying to inflict harm on us.
Hmm, hmm. Maybe the "peaceniks" should take that into consideration... some people can't be reasoned with, they need to be stopped before they do any more major damage... enough from me on that.

[Fledermaus]

Sure it started out as something to do with vengeance, but their training by Splinter helped them survive.
They learned other valuable lessons, like self control, developing their personal strengths, etc. (Considering some of the brothers struggled more with self control than others, they learned to exercise it well enough in the long run)
For instance the latest Mirage series where Raph turned into a monster, he could tap into his ability to find inner balance, and it brought him out of the his feral mode, thanks to Splinter's help.
Splinter raised four intelligent creatures to live in a world that was mostly hostile toward them. While they did initiate the conflict with Shredder, he was someone who had to be stopped or many innocents would be affected later on.

Yes. This is the other, redeeming side to training his sons all them fancy moves. Ninjutsu training is ideal if you're a freak who can't afford to be seen by the fearful "normals" ... really. If you need to sneak up to the surface every now and then, there could be no better purpose for stealth and self-defense training.

It may look bad for Splinter at first, but there was enough known about his antagonist that sometimes an effective defense is a good offense.
It's been said by some of the general public that the turtles are violent. If they are left alone, they aren't into violence. Raph may like to get into fights, but he justifies them with crime fighting. Doesn't mean they all want that.
Most often it is that violence comes upon them. While there are some conflicts that seem to have been started by them, it turned out to be a matter of halting something before it got way out of hand.
Evil prevails when good people do nothing... ETC.

Truth was, Shredder probably would not have bothered the TMNT if they hadn't KILLED him. Issue one was all about vengeance. Splinter did not go to the trouble to say, Oroku Saki is about to do something really evil and no one can stop him but you, my sons. No, Shredder seems to be going about his business. But seriously, Shredder was not the only villain in NYC. If Splinter really wanted to dispense justice, why didn't he tell his sons to regularly patrol the surface and stop all the other evil crime lords because the ignorant, incompetent police force is utterly helpless to stop them?

I don't mean to bash Splinter's character entirely, but I do see this as perhaps a questionable character trait. No one is perfect and this by no means overshadows his heroic qualities -- it adds a nice twist in my opinion, instead of having everything so clear-cut good guy/bad guy.

Although Shredder is rotten to the core. Pure eeeeeevil! :evilgrin: He certainly needed to be stopped, but was this the best way to stop him? A shame the TMNT couldn't kill him after the manner of true ninjas -- they could have worn disguises, they could have offed him right there in the office unexpected. That's how real ninjas assassinate their prey. They stay hidden and are never seen again by the followers of their enemy.

Only they aren't actually ninjas, as they aren't "dogs without honor" so such an option was not considerable, even for one so dishonorable as the Shredder. :roll:

Again, always keep in mind that issue 1 was meant to be a stand-alone parody (that took itself seriously :D). But I think it's a cop-out to simply overwrite Splinter's character in that issue. He had a mind for revenge -- there was little indication that he merely wanted to play cop for the good of humanity. ;)

[Ava Collier]

I'm just gonna step in here for a second, and add...if I saw someone I loved getting beaten to death, I don't think I would be rational enough to stop, and talk myself out of killing the attacker. It's not a situation you have time to think through. "If I can't have her, no one will" yeah...that's definately intent to kill. I can't even believe THAT was questioned. What else could he have meant?

[Fledermaus]

I'm just gonna step in here for a second, and add...if I saw someone I loved getting beaten to death, I don't think I would be rational enough to stop, and talk myself out of killing the attacker. It's not a situation you have time to think through. "If I can't have her, no one will" yeah...that's definately intent to kill. I can't even believe THAT was questioned. What else could he have meant?

Yoshi killed Nagi to save Tang Shen. He had no time to think.

Splinter, on the other hand, had fifteen years to plan Saki's assassination.

[Spawn Guy]

We got soem of the greatest characters on Earth out of it though.

[The Shelf]

Yoshi killed Nagi to save Tang Shen. He had no time to think.

Splinter, on the other hand, had fifteen years to plan Saki's assassination.

assassinate
(v) : to murder someone, especially an important person, by a sudden or obscure attack, especially for ideological or political reasons

execute
(v) : to kill as punishment for capital crimes

Saki was guilty of murder. He was executed, not assassinated.

[Fledermaus]

Alrighty then... EXECUTION.

Since that's what he chose to call it. ;) Point was he had fifteen years to plan for this "execution attempt" and this was the best he could think of -- a grand face-off on a roof top, not even disguises for his sons to wear. Of course, conceptually, his brilliant scheme works so much better for the comics, but character-wise, it indicates that he may be more concerned with "honor" than the safety of his family when it comes to settling old feuds.

Is Splinter a father before he is a warrior/dispenser of justice? I don't think so. I think he puts justice before the safety of his family. Not necessarily bad. Really. I'm not saying it is. Just interesting.

And of course, in the end, if this HADN'T happened, think of all the great adventures the TMNT would have missed. I'm sure the motivation for Splinter's actions in Issue 1 all boils down to simple plot device.

But what-ifs are more fun to discuss. :P

[Spawn Guy]

Frankly some of them are just flat out pointless. I've seen people read a hell of a lot into plot points and ultimatly at the end of the day, that's all they are and ever will be: a means of getting the story from point A to B. An awful lot of kevetching and tangents, all for something so small and easily explained. Tied into the character I'll admit but sometimes...I don't know.

[Fledermaus]

Any time I think a thread is flat-out pointless, I just ignore it. :P Besides, this topic would pointless, only I'm not planning to sit on these dabbling conversations. You've all been very helpful. Thanks and take care! :)

[aabxx]

To quote Leonardo when he was asked how he could deny someone else vengenace, when he and his brothers "killed Oroku Saki for the sake of your master's vengeance!".

Leo replies: "Because. Because I have learned that vengeance sows the seeds of future sorrow".

Read into that whatever you like.

[Scandia]

Nobody knows everything ahead of time. Hindsight is always 20-20.

Trust me. Not carrying out revenge and letting go instead and making peace with the past feel much better. It feels like a load has been lifted off your back. Like a cloud of darkness has been lifted off your heart.

Splinter may have wanted revenge at first. But he has trained his Turtles to do many other good things- and that is how he lived the rest of his life.

[Scandia]

I have realized that while Splinter may only have had one reason to live originally:

revenge

he now has FOUR reasons for living:

Leonardo
Raphael
Michelangelo
Donatello