Master Splinter is always right. (Mirage comics)

Fledermaus · 05-18-2007, 01:37 AM

So we know him as the wise old sage, the infallible father figure, the cool sensei we wish we could have in our lives. But after reading issue 1, the truth is that Splinter, father, sensei, master... trained the TMNT, his students, his sons to kill a man out of vengeance.

This reignites a cycle of vengeance supposedly begun by Oroku Nagi who first attacked Tang Shen out of jealousy, and I won't repeat that story. Instead I will quote Time Mistress who happened to sum up my observations in one of her posts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Mistress

Overall, the cycle of revenge is more prominant in Mirage than one of justice, even though the bad guys derseve what they get. Nagi beats Shen. Yoshi kills Nagi. Saki kills Yoshi and Shen. Turtles "kill" Saki. The Foot try to kill the Turtles. Karai tries to make peace. The Foot kill Karai's daughter as a warning not to make peace. Karai propositions the Turtles kill the Elite, they do. And finally the clan war is over, for now. But it could easily descent into war again at any time.

My question deals with whether the Mirage TMNT ever acknowledged this fact: they were primarily trained for a purpose that was dishonorable "ninja" at its core. Saki, as far as I know, posed no direct threat to them or New York -- not enough that the only remedy was assassination, not enough that it was mentioned. They attacked him, not out of defense but out of one mutated rat-man's selfish desire to "even the score." The TMNT followed Splinter without question (in issue 1 at least) and then had to reap the consequences of their blind obedience to his wishes.

Now, I am sure there have been discussions on this topic, but I don't know where those are and I'd rather not wait on this issue as I am short on time.

So... who's read the comics and is willing to share their knowledge (or at least back up their speculations with evidence from the original source material)?

*Sage Ninja* · 05-18-2007, 01:59 AM

whoa we touched upon this in a thread I started a few months back called Splinter Has Nobody which got pretty heated and contraversial. But it dealt mainly with the New toon version of Splinter, which gave him a more honorable reason to want Shredder out of the way. All though you can still see his loathing and desire for revenge (or has he puts it justice) come through in the episodes that involve the turtles meeting the Shredder for the first time.

My opinion, Splinter is a flawed yet very nuanced character that isn't perfect and certainly isn;'t always right. He did indeed train the boys to kill Saki out of vengence and nothing else really honorable like he's been made to be in other mediums. Which might people raise their eye brows in disapproval, but if you put your self in Splinter's place and some you loved was murdered--wouldn't you want to get them too? I don't think Splinter showed good judgment in this vengence thing and its reprecussions, but I don;t think he intentinally put the turtles lives in danger.

Fledermaus · 05-18-2007, 02:08 AM

Yeah, but you could say that Saki loved his brother and wanted "justice" as well.

Vengeance is vengeance. Whether he wanted harm to come to his sons or not, Splinter did put his sons in harm's way, initially at least. I'm sure that, after seeing one of his sons nearly beaten to death, and then all that lovely City at War Drama he must have had second thoughts/regrets.

Again, I am mostly interested in how the TMNT themselves might have reacted to or reflected on this interesting aspect of their father and the role of vengeance in their lives. Some of the turtles, as we know, are generally content with following orders from their Sensei without question. One of them, or perhaps more (I don't know since I'm no Mirage TMNT expert) as we all know tends to rebel a lot more. I'm curious whether any of them actually questioned Splinter or their alleged "task at hand." If, when and where this happened is what I'd like to know.

*Scandia* · 05-18-2007, 04:49 AM

From what I gather, Splinter did not raise the Turtles strictly to commit vengeance. If that were the case, there Splinter would have treated his Turtles WAY worse. He would have just hardened them to be tough. He would not have taught them anything else. He would have made them be bloodthirsty savages- nothing like the Turtles we see. Sure sure, his original motivation may not have been the noblest. But he still raised the Turtles with love and care. Otherwise he would not have taught them calligraphy (like in "My Hero") or allowed them to have individuality of their own. Splinter would not have meditated nor encouraged his students to meditate. And they would not be calling him "father" for sure if all Splinter cared was about violent revenge.

The Shelf · 05-18-2007, 06:39 AM

The way I see it, Splinter may have wanted vengeance, but he was exacting justice as well. Just because Saki didn't pose a direct threat to the turtles, doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be executed. He murdered two people, possibly more. Now you could maybe argue that Saki was right to kill Yoshi since he murdered Nagi (though I disagree as I'm about to explain), but he certainly had no right to kill Tang Shen, and deserved to be executed if only for that reason alone. Aside from that, Yoshi had every right to kill Nagi because he entered Tang Shen's home and beat her. Yoshi killed Nagi out of defense.

Murder is certainly wrong, but if someone enters your home and attacks you or anyone else, you have the right to defend yourself or the other people. If you kill them, the fault is their own, not yours. It would certainly be better not to kill them even though they attacked you and yours, but if you do, then no one can blame you because you were acting out of defense.

So, I would hardly call the Mirage story an endless cycle of revenge, but perhaps justice isn't emphasized enough. Nagi beat Tang Shen out of jealousy, Yoshi killed Nagi out of defense, Saki murdered Yoshi and Tang Shen out of vengeance, the turtles executed Saki for his two murders, and the Foot tried to kill the turtles out of vengeance until Karai opted for peace which could only be had by killing the Elite.

Yoshi, Splinter, the turtles, and Karai all had good reasons for the murders they committed (not sure if Karai ever killed anyone because I haven't read CaW yet), though vengeance may have been an added "benefit" for them; but Nagi, Saki, and the Foot were only ever driven by jealousy and vengeance.

Now, I think the biggest fault of Splinter that many people will try to argue for is that he put the turtles' lives at risk. But did he have a good reason for sending them to kill Saki rather than killing Saki himself? If Splinter was afraid of acting out of revenge, then yes, he had a good reason for not killing Saki himself. If this is indeed the case, then Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably so that they could carry out his task in his name since his willpower might prove too weak. That is not to say that he raised them just to assassinate Saki. On the contrary, he loved and cherished them all the more because he was training them to be better than him, to be stronger than him in mind and body, to succeed where he feared he would fail -- that is, to exact justice on Saki without exacting revenge in the process.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but for those who think Splinter contributed to the revenge-cycle, I could just as easily argue that all his actions -- from raising and training the turtles to kill Saki to not joining them in the fight -- were intended to escape it. Did he succeed? Well, yes. Again, I haven't read CaW, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Karai realize that the turtles had every reason to kill Saki? Isn't that why she opted for peace? Eventually, they had peace, and I think Splinter's actions contributed to that. If Splinter had exacted justice on Saki, he likely would have given in to his revenge and done a lot more damage than just killing Saki. I'm not exactly sure what he might have done, though, because this is all hypothetical anyway.

Of course, the ideal thing would be for Splinter to forgive Saki and move on, but it was likely that Saki would ruin more people's lives in the future, and Splinter wanted to prevent that from happening.

*Ava Collier* · 05-18-2007, 07:41 AM

Shelf person...that was beautiful ^_^
I can't really add anything. I'm not familiar with the comics at all. The only thing I can really say, is Master Splinter was an animal. A rat. Rats don't do things for revenge, but humans do. Wouldn't becoming human-like have been a very new and confusing thing? He wouldn't have had those emotions before. A thirst for vengence displays his human side.

*odupianist* · 05-18-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

He did indeed train the boys to kill Saki out of vengence and nothing else really honorable like he's been made to be in other mediums.

My thought process is if he trained them to kill Saki, what was his planned for these trained ninjas after that was done? Just sit around and get fat? Why spend all that time training these ninja for one small task. Granted, it didn't turn out to be a small task, but still.

Quote:

Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably

He succeeded in that. Cause if you really want to break it down, Leo just shoved a sword in him. They gave him the option to commit seppuku (sp?). Don threw the bo staff at Saki in self defense. I mean who really wants to be blown up by a termite grenade. Not me, but I could be in the minority

The Shelf · 05-18-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odupianist

My thought process is if he trained them to kill Saki, what was his planned for these trained ninjas after that was done? Just sit around and get fat? Why spend all that time training these ninja for one small task. Granted, it didn't turn out to be a small task, but still.

Hmm, well as far as that goes, I don't think he had a plan for them after that except to live their lives peaceably and in the way that they each saw fit which is essentially what they have done in the comics since then (aside from all the adventures they get thrust into). That's why, as Scandia mentioned above, he encouraged the turtles' individuality and training. The benefits of the individuality is obvious, but the training benefited the turtles by giving them discipline. I'm certain Splinter would have taught the turtles martial arts regardless of whether he wanted them to kill Saki or not. For one, they would need to be capable of defending themselves in a world that would likely never accept them because they were freaks. For another, all the training they went through kept them focused and disciplined so they would be capable of living their lives to the fullest when he was no longer around to help them. Most parents do this in raising their own children, but they generally train their children in ways other than martial arts. For Splinter, though, martial arts was the biggest thing he knew, so he passed that on to the turtles along with all of his other teachings.

Hmm... I really wish I could keep these posts shorter.

wyze2099 · 05-18-2007, 09:49 AM

My take on this is that as much as we're discussing whether or not it was right for Splinter to raises his sons to participate in the cycle of violence, we're not necessarily seeing it from their perspective. Splinter was raised by a ninja and apparently learned everything he knew from Mirage-verse ninja ideals of honor and retribution. So, it seems to me that Splinter set his sons on this path -- one of old-world Bushido -- because he knew of no other path.

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts. He told them when the time was right and not before, so they could practice their art without it being tainted by the same darkness that had darkened the Foot ... and that had probably darkened him to an extent as well.

jenna · 05-18-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyze2099

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts. He told them when the time was right and not before, so they could practice their art without it being tainted by the same darkness that had darkened the Foot ... and that had probably darkened him to an extent as well.

Like Ava I haven't read many of the comics so I don't know the official Mirage line, but I agree that the 2k3 approach was good as mentioned above by the very wise Wyze...

I also liked that in 2k3 it was suggested that Splinter trained them to fight because he anticipated them needing to defend themselves against a world which would never accept them. Much more altruistic than vengeance.

*odupianist* · 05-18-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts.

Initially I didn't like that because I was hoping for more of a comic based cartoon, but I do agree it is more realistic.

jenna · 05-18-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odupianist

Initially I didn't like that because I was hoping for more of a comic based cartoon, but I do agree it is more realistic.

If I had read the comics first as a background I would probably agree with you.

but... I'm doing it all backwards!!

*Sage Ninja* · 05-18-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Now, I think the biggest fault of Splinter that many people will try to argue for is that he put the turtles' lives at risk. But did he have a good reason for sending them to kill Saki rather than killing Saki himself? If Splinter was afraid of acting out of revenge, then yes, he had a good reason for not killing Saki himself. If this is indeed the case, then Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably so that they could carry out his task in his name since his willpower might prove too weak. That is not to say that he raised them just to assassinate Saki. On the contrary, he loved and cherished them all the more because he was training them to be better than him, to be stronger than him in mind and body, to succeed where he feared he would fail -- that is, to exact justice on Saki without exacting revenge in the process.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but for those who think Splinter contributed to the revenge-cycle, I could just as easily argue that all his actions -- from raising and training the turtles to kill Saki to not joining them in the fight -- were intended to escape it. Did he succeed? Well, yes. Again, I haven't read CaW, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Karai realize that the turtles had every reason to kill Saki? Isn't that why she opted for peace? Eventually, they had peace, and I think Splinter's actions contributed to that. If Splinter had exacted justice on Saki, he likely would have given in to his revenge and done a lot more damage than just killing Saki. I'm not exactly sure what he might have done, though, because this is all hypothetical anyway.

Actually if Splinter decided to train the turtles so that they could confront Saki and take him out in his stead because he felt he might not have the will power to do it for the honorable reasons then...I some what have a problem with that. If you want to "kill" some one to avenge some one you love, do it your self and get your own hands dirty. That almost seems cowardly to train some one else to do it for you, it alsmost appears like he didn't want to his own hands dirty. I would under stand if he trained them because he is an old rat and couldn't physically do for him self as a result (some have mentioned that in the comic Splinter isn't as viril as he is made out to be in other mediums), and thats why he had the turtles confront Saki in his stead.

And as to what the turtles think about it. I think since they where trained from birth--er, mutation, to live the way of the ninja and their traditions (aka honor killings and obeydiance to their master) and walk the path of the warrior, that they had no real opinion of what they where supposed due to their up bringing. They did what they they had to. In other wrods I think the turtles morals and ethics have been shaped in a diffrent way that is diffrent from the western christian view, and there for make diffrent judments on what is right or wrong.

I have never read the comics so I don't know how the turtles act or behave in that medium. Has there ever been any indication that one of the turtles have expressed moral issues or reluctance in doing certain acts because they felt it was wrong in the comics?

Spawn Guy · 05-18-2007, 01:17 PM

As far as killing Shredder, no.

Also as for the whole "Splinter doing it himself thing", if he did what would be the point of the turtles? I'm pretty sure it was a parody of a common theme in martail arts films where the pupil has to take on the bad guy because the sensi can't. I think it's important to remeber that this was two comic book fans doing a one shot prodgect at the time, not a deep phycological drama.

Splinter is old in the comics. Everyone should know by now he died of a herat attack. In the second issue he almost lost his life to a bunch of mousers. He's still got the skills, but yeah, he's old. Take that for what you will. And as for putting them in danger, has anyone read the first issue over on the offical site? Easiest thing in the world to do. The boys kick ass. They take down Shredder with team work, something everyone has gone on about at some point.

Splinter is flawed or whatever. A major plot point in these characters lives hinges on that. Gotten plenty of fun out of it to.

*odupianist* · 05-18-2007, 03:21 PM

Something I just thought of that Spawn Guy brought up. This was a one shot deal. Eastman and Laird were only doing one issue initially. That's something to keep in mind if you're looking at other variables beside the comic and story itself.

*Scandia* · 05-18-2007, 05:16 PM

If the Turtles' only purpose was to get rid of Shredder, the comic would have had a very short run. There would be no need for April or Casey. Or Karai. Or any of the aliens and other secondary characters. It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody. The OT could have happened- but it would still be very different. And there would be no need for the 4 different personalities.

Spawn Guy · 05-18-2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scandia

It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody.

Which was what it was supposed to be at the time.

*Andrew NDB* · 05-18-2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyze2099

I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts.

It suits a kid's cartoon well the way it's changed in 2K3. A reasonable compromise, but do keep in mind that's all it is -- no way Fox would allow the Turtles to be brought up for assassination/a revenge killing.

*Andrew NDB* · 05-18-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scandia

If the Turtles' only purpose was to get rid of Shredder, the comic would have had a very short run. There would be no need for April or Casey. Or Karai. Or any of the aliens and other secondary characters. It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody. The OT could have happened- but it would still be very different. And there would be no need for the 4 different personalities.

That's what the beauty of it is, and some of the best Mirage stories are ones that have touched on it.

It's literally like, "Hey, guys... we fulfilled our duty -- we killed Shredder. Now what?" And they each try to rise up and find purpose in their lives (with adventurous pitstops along the way, sure). In this it's quite relateable to anyone. You finish school, or you are stuck in a dead-end job, you will often ask yourself, "What do I do now? Where do I go?"

*Scandia* · 05-18-2007, 06:46 PM

But Splinter gave them the tools and training to fight evil in general. He did not just brainwash them to "kill Saki".

And if Saki was the Shredder, he probably was causing other problems as well. As someone here said, Tang Shen was totally innocent AND Hamato Yoshi had only killed Nagi in self-defense. Yoshi did not intend to. Hence he and Tang Shen ran off to America.

05-18-2007, 01:59 AM	#2
Sage Ninja Band of the Hawk Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,925	whoa we touched upon this in a thread I started a few months back called Splinter Has Nobody which got pretty heated and contraversial. But it dealt mainly with the New toon version of Splinter, which gave him a more honorable reason to want Shredder out of the way. All though you can still see his loathing and desire for revenge (or has he puts it justice) come through in the episodes that involve the turtles meeting the Shredder for the first time. My opinion, Splinter is a flawed yet very nuanced character that isn't perfect and certainly isn;'t always right. He did indeed train the boys to kill Saki out of vengence and nothing else really honorable like he's been made to be in other mediums. Which might people raise their eye brows in disapproval, but if you put your self in Splinter's place and some you loved was murdered--wouldn't you want to get them too? I don't think Splinter showed good judgment in this vengence thing and its reprecussions, but I don;t think he intentinally put the turtles lives in danger. __________________ Cassandra: You won't fight me, but will you fight--for him! Cassandra's Revenge ~Tangled the Series ________________________________ http://frankviola.org/2012/01/30/godsviewofawoman/ _______________________________ http://nox-artemis.tumblr.com/post/4...k-and-feminism

05-18-2007, 02:08 AM	#3
Fledermaus Mad Scientist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,115	Yeah, but you could say that Saki loved his brother and wanted "justice" as well. Vengeance is vengeance. Whether he wanted harm to come to his sons or not, Splinter did put his sons in harm's way, initially at least. I'm sure that, after seeing one of his sons nearly beaten to death, and then all that lovely City at War Drama he must have had second thoughts/regrets. Again, I am mostly interested in how the TMNT themselves might have reacted to or reflected on this interesting aspect of their father and the role of vengeance in their lives. Some of the turtles, as we know, are generally content with following orders from their Sensei without question. One of them, or perhaps more (I don't know since I'm no Mirage TMNT expert) as we all know tends to rebel a lot more. I'm curious whether any of them actually questioned Splinter or their alleged "task at hand." If, when and where this happened is what I'd like to know. __________________ We're calling it a freeway. Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past. I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night! Soon there will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food! Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see! My God... It'll be beautiful.

05-18-2007, 06:39 AM	#5
The Shelf Mad Scientist Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,031	The way I see it, Splinter may have wanted vengeance, but he was exacting justice as well. Just because Saki didn't pose a direct threat to the turtles, doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be executed. He murdered two people, possibly more. Now you could maybe argue that Saki was right to kill Yoshi since he murdered Nagi (though I disagree as I'm about to explain), but he certainly had no right to kill Tang Shen, and deserved to be executed if only for that reason alone. Aside from that, Yoshi had every right to kill Nagi because he entered Tang Shen's home and beat her. Yoshi killed Nagi out of defense. Murder is certainly wrong, but if someone enters your home and attacks you or anyone else, you have the right to defend yourself or the other people. If you kill them, the fault is their own, not yours. It would certainly be better not to kill them even though they attacked you and yours, but if you do, then no one can blame you because you were acting out of defense. So, I would hardly call the Mirage story an endless cycle of revenge, but perhaps justice isn't emphasized enough. Nagi beat Tang Shen out of jealousy, Yoshi killed Nagi out of defense, Saki murdered Yoshi and Tang Shen out of vengeance, the turtles executed Saki for his two murders, and the Foot tried to kill the turtles out of vengeance until Karai opted for peace which could only be had by killing the Elite. Yoshi, Splinter, the turtles, and Karai all had good reasons for the murders they committed (not sure if Karai ever killed anyone because I haven't read CaW yet), though vengeance may have been an added "benefit" for them; but Nagi, Saki, and the Foot were only ever driven by jealousy and vengeance. Now, I think the biggest fault of Splinter that many people will try to argue for is that he put the turtles' lives at risk. But did he have a good reason for sending them to kill Saki rather than killing Saki himself? If Splinter was afraid of acting out of revenge, then yes, he had a good reason for not killing Saki himself. If this is indeed the case, then Splinter raised the turtles to act justly and honorably so that they could carry out his task in his name since his willpower might prove too weak. That is not to say that he raised them just to assassinate Saki. On the contrary, he loved and cherished them all the more because he was training them to be better than him, to be stronger than him in mind and body, to succeed where he feared he would fail -- that is, to exact justice on Saki without exacting revenge in the process. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but for those who think Splinter contributed to the revenge-cycle, I could just as easily argue that all his actions -- from raising and training the turtles to kill Saki to not joining them in the fight -- were intended to escape it. Did he succeed? Well, yes. Again, I haven't read CaW, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Karai realize that the turtles had every reason to kill Saki? Isn't that why she opted for peace? Eventually, they had peace, and I think Splinter's actions contributed to that. If Splinter had exacted justice on Saki, he likely would have given in to his revenge and done a lot more damage than just killing Saki. I'm not exactly sure what he might have done, though, because this is all hypothetical anyway. Of course, the ideal thing would be for Splinter to forgive Saki and move on, but it was likely that Saki would ruin more people's lives in the future, and Splinter wanted to prevent that from happening. Last edited by The Shelf; 05-18-2007 at 06:47 AM.

05-18-2007, 07:41 AM	#6
Ava Collier It's ninja ninja RAT! Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,958	Shelf person...that was beautiful ^_^ I can't really add anything. I'm not familiar with the comics at all. The only thing I can really say, is Master Splinter was an animal. A rat. Rats don't do things for revenge, but humans do. Wouldn't becoming human-like have been a very new and confusing thing? He wouldn't have had those emotions before. A thirst for vengence displays his human side. __________________

05-18-2007, 09:49 AM	#9
wyze2099 Hench Mutant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 323	My take on this is that as much as we're discussing whether or not it was right for Splinter to raises his sons to participate in the cycle of violence, we're not necessarily seeing it from their perspective. Splinter was raised by a ninja and apparently learned everything he knew from Mirage-verse ninja ideals of honor and retribution. So, it seems to me that Splinter set his sons on this path -- one of old-world Bushido -- because he knew of no other path. I like the 2K3 cartoon's explanation that he never told the Turtles about Saki's murder of Yoshi because he didn't want them growing up with hatred in their hearts. He told them when the time was right and not before, so they could practice their art without it being tainted by the same darkness that had darkened the Foot ... and that had probably darkened him to an extent as well. __________________ TMNT: Mutant Town A Ninja Turtles Discord RPG and community. Currently ongoing: A Friday-night RPG on voice chat! Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Crossroads fanfiction group

05-18-2007, 04:49 AM	#4
Scandia Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,265	From what I gather, Splinter did not raise the Turtles strictly to commit vengeance. If that were the case, there Splinter would have treated his Turtles WAY worse. He would have just hardened them to be tough. He would not have taught them anything else. He would have made them be bloodthirsty savages- nothing like the Turtles we see. Sure sure, his original motivation may not have been the noblest. But he still raised the Turtles with love and care. Otherwise he would not have taught them calligraphy (like in "My Hero") or allowed them to have individuality of their own. Splinter would not have meditated nor encouraged his students to meditate. And they would not be calling him "father" for sure if all Splinter cared was about violent revenge.

05-18-2007, 01:17 PM	#14
Spawn Guy Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Earth 616 Posts: 1,481	As far as killing Shredder, no. Also as for the whole "Splinter doing it himself thing", if he did what would be the point of the turtles? I'm pretty sure it was a parody of a common theme in martail arts films where the pupil has to take on the bad guy because the sensi can't. I think it's important to remeber that this was two comic book fans doing a one shot prodgect at the time, not a deep phycological drama. Splinter is old in the comics. Everyone should know by now he died of a herat attack. In the second issue he almost lost his life to a bunch of mousers. He's still got the skills, but yeah, he's old. Take that for what you will. And as for putting them in danger, has anyone read the first issue over on the offical site? Easiest thing in the world to do. The boys kick ass. They take down Shredder with team work, something everyone has gone on about at some point. Splinter is flawed or whatever. A major plot point in these characters lives hinges on that. Gotten plenty of fun out of it to. __________________ *THE TECHNODROME'S LITTLE YELLOW BOX LOVER* madpiratebunny (19:26:51): oh goodness, I've got an idea SpawnGuyThing (19:26:57): Do tell madpiratebunny (19:27:02): nononono madpiratebunny (19:27:05): no telling SpawnGuyThing (19:27:10): ... SpawnGuyThing (19:27:27): But I'm the imaginery friend you always wanted SpawnGuyThing (19:27:36): Your supposed to tell me everything Last edited by Spawn Guy; 05-18-2007 at 01:27 PM.

05-18-2007, 03:21 PM	#15
odupianist Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,744	Something I just thought of that Spawn Guy brought up. This was a one shot deal. Eastman and Laird were only doing one issue initially. That's something to keep in mind if you're looking at other variables beside the comic and story itself.

05-18-2007, 05:16 PM	#16
Scandia Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,265	If the Turtles' only purpose was to get rid of Shredder, the comic would have had a very short run. There would be no need for April or Casey. Or Karai. Or any of the aliens and other secondary characters. It would be a very short revenge story. A very short parody. The OT could have happened- but it would still be very different. And there would be no need for the 4 different personalities.

05-18-2007, 06:46 PM	#20
Scandia Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,265	But Splinter gave them the tools and training to fight evil in general. He did not just brainwash them to "kill Saki". And if Saki was the Shredder, he probably was causing other problems as well. As someone here said, Tang Shen was totally innocent AND Hamato Yoshi had only killed Nagi in self-defense. Yoshi did not intend to. Hence he and Tang Shen ran off to America.