So is TMNT 2k3 up there with Batman: TAS?

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

It's really sad that 2k3 is pretty much said and done. Throughout my college years, it was a ritual to get up on Saturday mornings to tape a new episode of TMNT. On Fridays, I was so pumped up I sometimes could not contain myself. I would rewatch the tape over and over until sometimes I had no choice but to quit. 2k3 pretty much was the one show that I constantly watched in college. I really miss those days. Of course, when I got a capture card for my computer, I was able to just save the episodes directly to my PC. I did that pretty much with all of Season 4 episodes.

Now I look back on 5 seasons of TMNT 2k3 with both a sadness in my heart and a huge smile. First off, I was a fan of TMNT in the 80s with the original cartoon and the first movie. But it wasn't until TMNT 2k3 that I was reawakened as a TRUE fan. In 2003, I had no idea that the property was first a very serious and dark comic. I was use to the old cartoon's one shot and done storylines of goofiness. I was fond of those cartoons but when I compare it to the glory that is 2k3, they look like utter crap.

2k3 brought the Turtles into a more serious world. Although 2k3 wasn't nearly as dark as the original comics were, it certainly was much more dark than the old toon from the 80s. At the time, there really was no American cartoon that had what TMNT 2k3 had. Engrossing characters, superb animation, lots of multi-parters, great voice acting, and of course story arcs. Lots and lots of story arcs. Not many cartoons these days can say all of that. Especially about the various elements of story arcs that are puzzled together right up to the very end.

The only other cartoon in my eye that TMNT 2k3 can be compared to is the 1990s Batman: The Animated Series. Similarily, BTAS was dark and compelling. Many storylines were stretched over long periods of time. Dynamic characters. And amazing animation. Although many people would refute 2k3's Shredder since he was an Ultrom and not a man, I still think that character is one of the finest cartoon villians to come along. Up there with BTAS's Joker.

As much as I love 2k3, it wasn't perfect. There are some quite forgettable episodes that I pretty much ignore but still can watch because of the zanyness that Mikey brings. Another element of the show that I wish they would of expanded on was the music. Yes, I liked the Foot's theme, Shredder's theme, Karai's theme, and especially the Elite Guard's Theme. But I wish they had more music to go with when the Turtles were fighting. It really isn't that big of a complaint but a deeper musical score would of been nice.

The one thing about 2k3 had above a lot of modern American cartoons was the shock value. Who could forget there reaction when you saw Leonardo slice off Shredder's head in 'Return to New York Part III'? Or the unaired 'Insane in the Membranes' gore? Or especially the episode 'Same As It Never Was', probably one of the darkest Saturday Morning Cartoon episodes ever produced. Even a lot of episodes in the Lost Season were dark and edgy when compared to other American cartoons these days. While 4kids is notorious for screwing up properties, TMNT was one of those that didn't get screwed up. Well, at least not in the first 5 seasons. (I won't even go into Fast Forward.)

While many people will remember 2k3 for the Turtles, you can't forget about the other characters. Splinter, to me, in the 2k3 is like Yoda. A wise old Master that can kick some serious shell. He was beautifully protrayed in this medium. Also, can't forget about Usagi. I think every episode with Usagi was a masterpiece. He deserves his own cartoon. I wish 4kids would do one but I don't see it happening. It's a shame he didn't appear in more episodes. He flowed so well with Leonardo.

The most notable of characters that really come to mind to me will always be Karai, Usagi, and Agent Bishop. To me, those were the top three characters in the show that were not the Turtles. Karai had a arc to her and I was both frustrated and thrilled to watch her character. I have already touched on Usagi. He was great. Agent Bishop was a wonder new villian, even though in FF they made him such a weenie. In 2k3, he was a great foe...yet he was also a good guy really. Kinda an anti-villian, really. So interesting.

Point is, TMNT 2k3 was a milestone in my eyes of American animation. It was a cartoon with characters that are lovable and also relateable. Stories that were both engrossing but easy to watch. It really was a fun cartoon to watch every Saturday. I truly hope and pray that Peter Laird is able to bring something that is truly comparable and exciting to the new direction coming our way in 2008. I would love for 4kids to just return to 2k3 after it's failed experiment with FF but I know it won't happen. So I just want to say think you Peter and thank you TMNT 2k3 staff for providing a fan with a wonder memory of Ninja Turtle awesomeness that I will cherish for years to come.

[gobo]

So is TMNT 2k3 up there with Batman: TAS?
I think 2K3 was better. Its appeal wasn't as limited. With Batman, you just got drama. 2K3 had that and more. It gave the audience a break every now and then.

[Spitfire]

The Batman TAS is one of the best cartoon series of all time. You want good worthy comic adapts, this show nails it. Dark and gritty, wicked villains, jacked up storylines, tormented characters, deaths. This show had it all. And it was funny here and there as well.

While it didn't have a set long running continuing story arc the series put you in Batman's life with all these villains already around him and you lived life with him day by day for the duration of the series. The longer it went on the more we learned about these villains. It ended with no real ending just another crime he stopped. You enter into his life see his adventures and leave.

The animation was amazing for the time and I still love it today. The score was brilliant*Done by the same person who did the movie* and the voice acting was some of the best I've ever heard in any cartoon.

I love turtles to death but Batman is better no matter how I look at it.

[Unicron the Agitator]

I agree that the 2k3 series ranks as one of the all-time best comic-to-cartoon series (I rank it above both X-Men series and the recent Spider-Man shows), but I don't think it is as good at B:TAS. (To a lesser degree, I personally think Justice League/Unlimited is the standard for comic based cartoons). That being said, I totally agree with all your points. The 2k3 series pretty much saved the Turtles for me as I really don't care for the 80's toon and the third movie was a turd IMO.

I wish that they could return to this series in '08, but I'm sure it will never happen. Here's hoping that the new series at the very least, captures the spirit of the 2k3 show.

[The Terror of Death]

I say tmnt is better. The action/fighting in 2k3 makes the action/fighting in other cartoons look like a joke. And Batman:TAS is no exception.
Not only that but 2k3 is the greatest american cartoon ever.

[ToTheNines]

I say TMNT is better. It just looks better all-around (because it's newer), it has more likeable characters, and stronger continuity. Batman had more interestign villians, and better music. But they both appeal to both kids and adults, which is great. It's close, and probably because I'm biased, but you know my vote.

[Buslady]

I love both B:TAS & 2k3 TMNT...they both appealed to me; both have great voice work...nobody can do a cooler Joker than Mark Hamill...both had great stories, both dipped into the comics style and stories. I was particulary happy we got to see Jason Blood/Etrigan and all the lovelies from The Demon comics. Klarion and his kitty Teekl....loved it. I was a huge fan back in the 90s of The Demon, got all 16 original issues too. All Kirby art. That was my first introduction to Kirby actually.
After Bats deviated and went off to this new direction.......bleah...

I liked alot of the early Superman stuff too, we got LOBO! WOO!

[ZariusTwo]

It'
Now I look back on 5 seasons of TMNT 2k3 with both a sadness in my heart and a huge smile. First off, I was a fan of TMNT in the 80s with the original cartoon and the first movie. But it wasn't until TMNT 2k3 that I was reawakened as a TRUE fan. In 2003, I had no idea that the property was first a very serious and dark comic. I was use to the old cartoon's one shot and done storylines of goofiness. I was fond of those cartoons but when I compare it to the glory that is 2k3, they look like utter crap.

Which is why there not MEANT to be compared to the new series. By not comparing them, I honestly think the 80s series completly aces the modern series in at least two ways, with the modern series having obviously superior aspects in others. Both are just as good.

As for Batman: TAS. No argument, no bias, it KILLS TMNT. Sodding kills it. Its ridiculous to think TMNT is better. TMNT's humour is rubbish and only a few things from it have become canon in the comics. Batman: TAS redefined much of the Batman's existing comic mythology and introduced staples such as Harley Quinn, Terry Mcguiness, Mr Freeze's origin, as well as telling superior storylines and going darker routes than even the modern series ever touched, even when it finally came into its own in the fourth and fifth seasons.

Thats the key thing here, Batman: TAS had one bad season (and that was after a large amount of episodes in the first two), TMNT cant say that, its had two unbeleivably average seasons (two and FF), two good ones (one and three), and two superb ones

Not only that but 2k3 is the greatest american cartoon ever.

Its not remotley in the top ten

[raphael_is_cool]

It's really sad that 2k3 is pretty much said and done.

What?! :sick:

Did I miss something?

[The Terror of Death]

Its not remotley in the top ten

Please, 2k3 is so deep and intricate you dont even know. :roll:

[ZariusTwo]

Please, 2k3 is so deep and intricate you dont even know. :roll:

On the contrary you adolescent little d*ckwad, in contrast to TMNT, Avatar is MUCH deeper and intricate, as is the entirety of the DCAU. The minute your braincells adapt to something broader than 4Kids, you'll see that. Until then, kindly dont waste my time given I already know from previous posts you idolise 4Kids and generally dont have the capability of remotley posting a constructive sentence explaining HOW your favourate shows are "deep and intricate".

Saying TMNT is the greatest american animated series ever made is boarderline laughable.

[ToTheNines]

in contrast to TMNT, Avatar is MUCH deeper and intricate, as is the entirety of the DCAU."

Even Static Shock?

[ZariusTwo]

Even Static Shock?

Well, it DID win an emmy didnt it?:P

[The Terror of Death]

On the contrary you adolescent little d*ckwad, in contrast to TMNT, Avatar is MUCH deeper and intricate, as is the entirety of the DCAU. The minute your braincells adapt to something broader than 4Kids, you'll see that. Until then, kindly dont waste my time given I already know from previous posts you idolise 4Kids and generally dont have the capability of remotley posting a constructive sentence explaining HOW your favourate shows are "deep and intricate".

Saying TMNT is the greatest american animated series ever made is boarderline laughable.

I take it you dont watch G4TV?

[ToTheNines]

Well, it DID win an emmy didnt it?:P

:lol: Hey man, you got me there.

[ZariusTwo]

:lol: Hey man, you got me there.

No matter what the team behind those shows produce, they hit the jackpot even when there not trying. Krypto, Static, it's odd stuff.

Its hard for me to say Batman: TAS is not my own choice for the best series (bias says Transformers G1, simply because it was the JLU of its day and set the course as an innovator, plus it was just very good), but it certaingly is on every poll ever remotley conducted for shows based on comics, and it often comes pretty close to The Simpsons in matters of worldwide consensus. TMNT isnt just not on my own top ten, its not on the top ten ANYWHERE, for ANY poll on greatest animated series.

[ToTheNines]

Its hard for me to say Batman: TAS is not my own choice for the best series (bias says Transformers G1, simply because it was the JLU of its day and set the course as an innovator, plus it was just very good), but it certaingly is on every poll ever remotley conducted for shows based on comics, and it often comes pretty close to The Simpsons in matters of worldwide consensus. TMNT isnt just not on my own top ten, its not on the top ten ANYWHERE, for ANY poll on greatest animated series.

It's certainly on my top ten and you won't find it on another top 10 because it's underated. It's the only good show on 4kids (no question) which hardly anyone over the age of 9 watches. And turtles will always be remembered by the OT, which also is never on any poll for best cartoon. I know you have different reasons for not having it in your 10, but you do have to admit it's under-rated.

[ZariusTwo]

It's certainly on my top ten and you won't find it on another top 10 because it's underated. It's the only good show on 4kids (no question) which hardly anyone over the age of 9 watches. And turtles will always be remembered by the OT, which also is never on any poll for best cartoon. I know you have different reasons for not having it in your 10, but you do have to admit it's under-rated.

Yep, underrated, but as far as top tens go, it sure as heck isnt "overlooked".

And the original IS on polls, it can largely be found within the top twenty or top 100 ranges, but its there.

[Spitfire]

Please, 2k3 is so deep and intricate you dont even know. :roll:

Is that why Batman won an Emmy and TMNT didn't? Keep in mind it won this award back before award shows were popularity contests.

Let's look at the facts here, DC created the best animated universe. Batman TAS started it and it kept going. Super-man, Justice League, Batman Beyond*I'm not sure if Teen Titians is or not* are all connected and all happen in the same timeline. There's cameos all over Justice League from other episodes of Super-man and Batman they kept all the voice actors to my knowledge.

I like DC comics the least but in the cartoon department they deliver top notch stuff. TMNT is great but there's no way it's better then Batman.

[ToTheNines]

And the original IS on polls, it can largely be found within the top twenty or top 100 ranges, but its there.

The NT is easily one of the 100 best cartoons ever made.

Let's look at the facts here, DC created the best animated universe. Batman TAS started it and it kept going. Super-man, Justice League, Batman Beyond*I'm not sure if Teen Titians is or not* are all connected and all happen in the same timeline. There's cameos all over Justice League from other episodes of Super-man and Batman they kept all the voice actors to my knowledge.


How does that make the show intricate? The Simpsons and South Park have an immense cast of characters but no one says this about them. I don't praise the NT for being intricate, just wondering what you mean.

[Spitfire]

How does that make the show intricate? The Simpsons and South Park have an immense cast of characters but no one says this about them. I don't praise the NT for being intricate, just wondering what you mean.

It doesn't just proves it has a big long running continuity to it. Zarius mentioned Cannon earlier, and he was right. I was just commenting that in DC cartoons mostly everything is cannon and if it isn't it becomes cannon due to how good it is.

[ToTheNines]

It doesn't just proves it has a big long running continuity to it. Zarius mentioned Cannon earlier, and he was right. I was just commenting that in DC cartoons mostly everything is cannon and if it isn't it becomes cannon due to how good it is.

It's almost impossible for most of the stuff from 2k3 to be made cannon because of: A. It already is or B. It's an adaption that differs slightly from the comics. Also, the TMNT has applied a few things (Battle Nexus mainly) into the comics, but it's almost dead, while Batman was doing just fine at the time of TAS. So what if TAS had such a "big long running continuity" to it, TMNT could also if it goes on long enough.

[Spitfire]

It's almost impossible for most of the stuff from 2k3 to be made cannon because of: A. It already is or B. It's an adaption that differs slightly from the comics. Also, the TMNT has applied a few things (Battle Nexus mainly) into the comics, but it's almost dead, while Batman was doing just fine at the time of TAS. So what if TAS had such a "big long running continuity" to it, TMNT could also if it goes on long enough.

The Battle Nexus didn't have the same story that it did in the series though so I hardly count that.

The comic adapts are inaccurate as all hell. I can name two episodes that are accurate, "The King" and "The Shredder Strikes Back Part 1" the rest use the story but warp it, change it around, drag it out, and add crap that isn't needed to it. Sometimes it works because it's adding the new characters to the story and that's cool but most of the time it just pisses me off.

TMNT could try and have a big long running continuity I guess we do have to wait and see but the point I was making with Batman was even though it's a different TV series all together it's still carrying over. You could argue FF is a new series but I wouldn't go that far. TMNT has no series crossover or anything like Batman did.

[ToTheNines]

TMNT has no series crossover or anything like Batman did.

Say what? You realize that the Turtle-verse is not that big, it was Mirages only big comic. DC has like a dozen other cool super-heroes for cross overs, what's TMNT gonna cross over with? Dan Begers ginger bread man comic? Oh, there is the Usagi cross-overs, so they do have one.

[Spitfire]

Say what? You realize that the Turtle-verse is not that big, it was Mirages only big comic. DC has like a dozen other cool super-heroes for cross overs, what's TMNT gonna cross over with? Dan Begers ginger bread man comic? Oh, there is the Usagi cross-over, so they do have one.
Savage Dragon, Flamming Carrot, Cerbus, Night watchman...there's plenty of characters they could crossover with. I get your point that the turtles don't have much to go with in crossovers since none of these mentioned characters have their own TV series anymore.

I was just commenting on how big Batman TAS was, and still is today. TMNT may be great but it won't have a long lasting effect like that.

I just think it's cool you can watch en episode of Justice League with references to an episode of a ten year old cartoon series. That's something you don't see.

[ToTheNines]

Ok, point taken.

[gobo]

No one thought to mention Planet Racers? O_o It's the only Mirage title crossover they had to my knowledge. And, other than the Cowboys of Moo Mesa (unofficially so), there weren't any crossovers with other animated properties. Peter Laird seems to not want Turtles to become too big to handle again, and it can't reach DC-heights if its growth is stunted.

[ToTheNines]

No one thought to mention Planet Racers? O_o It's the only Mirage title crossover they had to my knowledge. And, other than the Cowboys of Moo Mesa (unofficially so), there weren't any crossovers with other animated properties. Peter Laird seems to not want Turtles to become too big to handle again, and it can't reach DC-heights if its growth is stunted.

Ahhh gobo! you got me :x

[The Terror of Death]

Is that why Batman won an Emmy and TMNT didn't? Keep in mind it won this award back before award shows were popularity contests.

Let's look at the facts here, DC created the best animated universe. Batman TAS started it and it kept going. Super-man, Justice League, Batman Beyond*I'm not sure if Teen Titians is or not* are all connected and all happen in the same timeline. There's cameos all over Justice League from other episodes of Super-man and Batman they kept all the voice actors to my knowledge.

I like DC comics the least but in the cartoon department they deliver top notch stuff. TMNT is great but there's no way it's better then Batman.

I guess you dont watch G4TV either.

[ZariusTwo]

I guess you dont watch G4TV either.

What does that have to do with anything exactly?

[The Terror of Death]

What does that have to do with anything exactly?

They made some joke about die hard fans always saying their fav shows are "deep and inticate" whenever they feel someone is disrespecting that specific show.

[ZariusTwo]

Naturally I dont watch G4TV, mainly because

1. I live in the UK and we dont GET it

2. It's vagely unfunny and uninteresting from the people I've heard talk about it.

So yeah, your crummy little joke went over everybody's head.

[The Terror of Death]

2. It's vagely unfunny and uninteresting from the people I've heard talk about it.


You heard right.

[gobo]

The mark of a clever joke is when it goes over everyone's heads. Not necessarily a successful joke, but a clever one...

[ZariusTwo]

The mark of a clever joke is when it goes over everyone's heads. Not necessarily a successful joke, but a clever one...

But G4TV isnt clever in the slightest, nor are they noticable beyond a cult audience. Most clever jokes that go over peoples heads are ones that are viewed to a cult fanbase worldwide

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

G4TV is crap but it can be tolerated.....in bits and pieces.

However, TechTV was the greatest thing to come to Earth since the invention of sliced cheese. Oh how I miss TechTV.

[ZariusTwo]

Darn thing needs torrenting.

[Roseangelo]

However, TechTV was the greatest thing to come to Earth since the invention of sliced cheese. Oh how I miss TechTV.

Even better than TechTV: ZDTV - Those were the days.

[Dragon Turtle]

Point is, TMNT 2k3 was a milestone in my eyes of American animation. It was a cartoon with characters that are lovable and also relateable. Stories that were both engrossing but easy to watch. It really was a fun cartoon to watch every Saturday. I truly hope and pray that Peter Laird is able to bring something that is truly comparable and exciting to the new direction coming our way in 2008. I would love for 4kids to just return to 2k3 after it's failed experiment with FF but I know it won't happen. So I just want to say think you Peter and thank you TMNT 2k3 staff for providing a fan with a wonder memory of Ninja Turtle awesomeness that I will cherish for years to come.

There have been many good shows since Batman TAS, but few really great shows, I would definately say that along with the original Batman TAS and Gargoyles, TMNT is the only other American action cartoon that has truly resonated a sense of interest in me, for me personally over the last two decades, these have been the three best animated action shows with everthing else being secondary.

[ZariusTwo]

Avatar and Samurai Jack I can easily add to the list.

[Rooish]

Beast Wars

[ZariusTwo]

Reboot, Shadow Raiders, Roswell Conspiracies, Godzilla: The Series, and Spider-Man: TAS

[Dragon Turtle]

Avatar and Samurai Jack I can easily add to the list.

Very good shows that show creators actually thinking outside the box.

Beast Wars

Other then G1, the only Transformers show I really cared about.

Reboot, Shadow Raiders, Roswell Conspiracies, Godzilla: The Series, and Spider-Man: TAS


All good shows. :)

[shuriken]

TMNT better than the Batman series...too tough to call. Batman was awesome back in the day, I loved it, how they incorperated Robin into the show without treating him like a sidekick but an actual partner. The villains were all interesting and had their own air of awesomeness to them (even the villains I really didn't like, like Riddler and Killer Kroc). Tmnt fails big time in this department. For every two or three good villains there's a really crappy one to cancel it out. Garbageman? Darius? Nano? But the cool vilains like Shredder, Rat King, The Triceratons, Karai and Bishop don't disappoint. I really want to rewatch those old school Batman cartoons, as well as Spiderman that came out a little after. Aww man I wish I was 6 again, when all of theses shows were more than just awesome memories of my childhood...

[Time Mistress]

I think 2k3 is TMNT's answer to Baman: TAS. But there's no doubt Batman has had a bigger impact on US animation and started the trend of darker cartoons than led us to having a more comic book inspired cartoons. There is a reason OT TMNT wasn't much like Mirage. It's because of toons like Batman TAS paving the way that shows like 2k3 even happened. In terms of story quailty though, I'd say they are pretty much even. I prefer 2k3 though, because I'm a bigger TMNT fan than Batman fan.

I would like to give some overlooked credit to X-Men:TAS though. They both pioneered animation styles (Batman's dark deco, and X-Men's "heavily inked" look.) Both started the same season back in '92 so you can't say Batman was first or inspired X-Men. X-Men did for Marvel toons in the 90s what Baman did for DC toons. OT TMNT was caught somewhere in the middle of the old and the new trends, the obvious change of tone and format for Red Sky but still not seeming different enough. It wasn't until 2k3 that we really got a 90s inspired cartoon take on TMNT. OT TMNT is a completely different animal than most other superhero cartoons from the 90s so it's unfair to compare it. OT TMNT belongs with superhero shows of the 70s/80s like Superfriends, Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends and the Zorro/Tarzan action hour where the purpose was an exciting action romp, not comic book storylines adaptated to the small screen.

[Spitfire]

I'd like to make a note that I watched the Gotham Knights set the other day. I got through the first disk and I have to say I like it quite a bit. I know before I said I hated it but I think that's because I wasn't in the mood for a change in the style at all.

It's just as bad ass as the previous seasons with some nice animation to boot. I still hate Catwomen's new look but everyone else is cool so far. I like Scarecrow espcially. I know there's some episodes I hated but I'm not sure when I get to them.

I know I couldn't stand the one with the rocket stunt girl and the Super-girl crossover but I'll judge them more fairly this time around.

[Zog the Equalizer]

I'd like to make a note that I watched the Gotham Knights set the other day. I got through the first disk and I have to say I like it quite a bit. I know before I said I hated it but I think that's because I wasn't in the mood for a change in the style at all.

It's just as bad ass as the previous seasons with some nice animation to boot. I still hate Catwomen's new look but everyone else is cool so far. I like Scarecrow espcially. I know there's some episodes I hated but I'm not sure when I get to them.

I know I couldn't stand the one with the rocket stunt girl and the Super-girl crossover but I'll judge them more fairly this time around.


The only thing I truly hated about Gotham Knights was the redesign of the Joker. I hated the weird eyes and lack of the red lips or "lipstick".

[Spitfire]

The only thing I truly hated about Gotham Knights was the redesign of the Joker. I hated the weird eyes and lack of the red lips or "lipstick".

Yeah I wasn't to fond of that either. I remember hating the way Bane looked to, honestly he looked like a gimp. But I got used to it. Catwomen just bothered me because it was a radical change and when she had her costume on she was suddenly a vampire.

[Terrorpin]

TMNT2K3 isn't better or worse than Batman: TAS in my opinion. Both had a wide variety of episodes. Both had an interesting and endearing cast. Both did have episodes that I'd rather not watch ever again. Both had good, long story arcs that respected kids' intellect (i.e., didn't write their audience off as sugar-crazed kids who just wanted the wowie factor and couldn't be bothered to follow along.)

So what if Batman made a bigger splash in the pool? He's the BATMAN, for Pete's sake. Of course people are going to sit up and take notice. When it comes to the world-view, TMNT will always be second- or third-tier product. But that's ok. I LIKE TMNT as a small series. Do you know how much I've seen of Batman? Just whatever's been in cartoons and movies. The comics span frikkin' DECADES. Of course they intimidate me. But TMNT is approachable. It's something you can dive right into and enjoy. But we digress from the original point of the post.

There are lots of great cartoons out there. We get dozens every year. So what if TMNT2K3's not #1? That's just someone else's opinion. It's not from lack of trying on the part of the writers, animators, or voice actors. It's not from lack of vision. Some people just prefer one thing to the other. There's no sense to be had. Yes, we all love TMNT and put it on a little pedastel in our lives. I say just so long as you enjoy it, it's no better or worse than any other guy's fave show.