PEACE or WAR

[Supermik]

Please don't give me some warned or similar...

i would only know what Americans think about the IRAQ-USA problem.

Thanks a lot.

Sincerly

[That Matt Guy]

I would prefer peace, but if there is a war I am not going to go out and protest it. Protesting accomplishes nothing.

[Supermik]

I preffer to wait what will happen, we have only to hope!

I preffer peace.

But i'm an Italian State Policeman and i have to control who protest. Today somebody for the peace blocks an important road and we had to interfere...

thanks.

[cqb101]

Peace all the way man!!!!!!!!!!!


*Lites up a joint and holds hands with everybody*

[One Radical Dude]

Even though I want to see peace, I know that the United States needs to go to war. First of all, et me say that just because one believes that the United States should take action (and have Saddam out of power) doesn't mean that they WANT to see a war. I'm sure a lot of people feel that way. However, I don't want to be blown up or become exposed to chemicals or diseases (bioterrorism) either.

Those that compare GWB to Adolf Hitler needs to take out Bush's name, and add Saddam Hussein instead. He IS a threat to America, and the world. He has tortured, and murdered his own people. Do you accept what he is doing/has done? Saddam has lied about having chemicals and mass weapons of destruction. For 12 years, he have been given opportunities to disarm, and has been given opportunities to end this in a peaceful way. What makes you think he's going to change?

The anti-Americanism really makes me sick. Even those that the US has helped before are against them. For those that we've helped in the past/present but hate the United States, where would you be w/o that nation? Where would Europe be without the United States (especially during the WW I-II era)? You'd probably wouldn't exist today, or be suffering miserably. If I have offended anyone, I apologize, but it bothers me to see so much hatred towards my country. Hey, I didn't choose where I wanted to be born. I didn't choose what nationality I wanted to be. Is it my fault that I am an American? This is what I would say to the American haters out there.

As for peace, who doesn't want it? Well, the exception goes to people like bin Laden and Saddam. I understand that you have the right to say what you want about the U.S. government and everything, but I feel that the same people that are protesting today...ignored everything that went on during Clinton's administration. I didn't see any protesting (or it was much more limited) going on back then. I feel that there are many different groups of anti-war members: 1. The anti-Bush group. 2. The anti-American crowd. 3. People who truly don't believe that a war is necessary at all. 4. The Human Shields for Saddam group (yes, there is a small group that really want to protect him by being human shields). Are there any others?

Today, you can't really ignore the threats that go on in today's world. Any threat could lead to something disastrous. Hopefully, we can end terror (or reduce it greatly). I do believe things, such as the duct-tape/plastics thing was stupid. It's a waste of time and money. Heh.

Before I wrap it up, I would like to say..."have you people who oppose war forgotten 9-11-2001? Do you want to relive that day again, and again, and again?" For that to happen, all we have to do is do nothing...and HOPE that Saddam, bin Laden, etc. change their hearts. I don't see them hoping for peace. I don't see that peace is coming, if we ignore them. Dudes/dudettes, I do not want to be blown up by nuclear weapons..nor do I want to be exposed to anything..such as smallpox or anything like that. If I ever get married and have children, I want them to live in a nation without all the terror and fear. I'm sorry to say that the United States and the rest of the world will go dark, if we just wait and see what happens next. By the time we react, I believe it'll be too late. My final statement.....just because Saddam hasn't done anything major to the United States doesn't mean he doesn't have plans to do so.

I have a voice, and I'm not afraid to speak up on issues like these. For those that read this, thank you.

[That Matt Guy]

Peace all the way man!!!!!!!!!!!


*Lites up a joint and holds hands with everybody*

Uh... whatever...

[Deathknight]

Peace, the last thing this country needs is a war. Especially one that's all about Bush's popularity.

[Tokka-B]

I agree with you all the way DeathKnight! :) War is disgusting and we cannot resort to it until EVERY LAST OPTION HAS BEEN EXPLORED. As we already know from the Korean War and the Gulf war, war does not work, it worked 3,000 years ago, lets not go backwards in time, lets progress, not destroy. As much as we don't want Bin Laden to attack or Saddam to burn his oil fields, we cannot resort to the kind of violence only they would pursue.

ORD, did you see Dan Rather's interview with Saddam Hussein on 60 minutes 2? Bush keeps saying he is a monster, but he looked well presented to me and said some very logical things I might add. Besides wanting peace, he wanted to have a live satellite debate with President Bush, so the whole world could see it, that would have been very useful. But of course, the Bush administration just dismisses this as a joke immediately, not wanting to take the shame of our C average President... we think Saddam is this maniac always ready to kill, yet he hasn't killed in 12 years...And it wasn't his own people that he killed, it was the Iranians, when they were at war, but we have an American view that says that all Middle East is the same...

Bush is also trying to make this into a crusade...he has influenced christianity in every one of his public appearances in some way, I see no seperation in church and state.

The cost of this war is tremendous, too tremendous, our whole country could be a better place if he used the money the right way.....Do we think that If we get Saddam Hussein out of power, the terrorists will not fight back??? They are all about revenge obviously because of the unsuccessful '93 bombing...I don't see an arab democracy, we are changing their whole way of life, it is rediculous, no one wants it but us and the goons who don't want to be on the "Axis of Evil"...lol

What are we going to do after the war? Leave that to the next president to deal with? Then who is next, North Korea? Then Iran? Are we going to slowly but surely kill off every nation til we have the world to our ungreatful selves? What is with this anti-American bull? We cannot express our opinions in a way that may be effective? Why protest you say? Well simply to remind the closed mind government of ours that people still want worldpeace...
All I can say now is lets try to think forward and not backwards.
I know I may have offended some in here, but hey, this is my opinion...accept it or reject it. :wink:

[That Matt Guy]

I agree with you all the way DeathKnight! :) War is disgusting and we cannot resort to it until EVERY LAST OPTION HAS BEEN EXPLORED. As we already know from the Korean War and the Gulf war, war does not work, it worked 3,000 years ago, lets not go backwards in time, lets progress, not destroy. As much as we don't want Bin Laden to attack or Saddam to burn his oil fields, we cannot resort to the kind of violence only they would pursue.

I assume you mean the Vietnam War in place of the Gulf War. :wink:

[Tokka-B]

Actually now that you remind me, the Vietnam War was pointless as well! Heh, thanks. :wink:

Note: I will not be here this coming week til Friday unless something else comes up, so don't expect me to respond to questions or anything after this night.

[One Radical Dude]

I agree with you all the way DeathKnight! icon_smile.gif War is disgusting and we cannot resort to it until EVERY LAST OPTION HAS BEEN EXPLORED. As we already know from the Korean War and the Gulf war, war does not work, it worked 3,000 years ago, lets not go backwards in time, lets progress, not destroy. As much as we don't want Bin Laden to attack or Saddam to burn his oil fields, we cannot resort to the kind of violence only they would pursue.

We've given Saddam 12 years, dude!! He lies about not having weapons, then he says he refuses to disarm. Gee, I sure trust him. :trolleye: I'm not going to say much more on that quote except that we are truly dead, if we do nothing but ask for peace. It's better to act than to react. There will definitely be more attacks.

ORD, did you see Dan Rather's interview with Saddam Hussein on 60 minutes 2? Bush keeps saying he is a monster, but he looked well presented to me and said some very logical things I might add. Besides wanting peace, he wanted to have a live satellite debate with President Bush, so the whole world could see it, that would have been very useful. But of course, the Bush administration just dismisses this as a joke immediately, not wanting to take the shame of our C average President... we think Saddam is this maniac always ready to kill, yet he hasn't killed in 12 years...And it wasn't his own people that he killed, it was the Iranians, when they were at war, but we have an American view that says that all Middle East is the same...

I don't buy in everything I hear on the media, I'm sorry. If Saddam wanted peace, he would show the world that he doesn't have weapons or shows them that he is disarming. He ain't doing either one. Tell me...why do you think the Iraqi Kurds want Saddam out? They're fed up with him. It happened close to the Iraq/Iran border, but the gassing and bombing by Saddam's men took place on his own people. If you did some research, and see the disturbing images, you would find out what happened.

Bush is also trying to make this into a crusade...he has influenced christianity in every one of his public appearances in some way, I see no seperation in church and state.

I haven't seen that at all. He mentions "God" and "prayer", but he didn't use "Christianity." I've seen him compliment "Islam" many more times than I've heard him complimenting the Christian faith (even though he does believe in that faith).

The cost of this war is tremendous, too tremendous, our whole country could be a better place if he used the money the right way.....Do we think that If we get Saddam Hussein out of power, the terrorists will not fight back??? They are all about revenge obviously because of the unsuccessful '93 bombing...I don't see an arab democracy, we are changing their whole way of life, it is rediculous, no one wants it but us and the goons who don't want to be on the "Axis of Evil"...lol

Do we just stop? Do we wait and let these people meet their goals by wiping out America and other places? The cost of war in dollars does not concern me, it's the millions of lives that will be in stake if America chooses to react and do nothing. There won't be an economy left to defend, and America would be back in the Stone Age. And you want to know why America was unsuccessful at getting rid of Saddam and dismantle the Ba'ath Party? It's because of the anti-war crowd who said "we're killing innocent people....stop the bombs, stop it now!"

What are we going to do after the war? Leave that to the next president to deal with? Then who is next, North Korea? Then Iran? Are we going to slowly but surely kill off every nation til we have the world to our ungreatful selves? What is with this anti-American bull? We cannot express our opinions in a way that may be effective? Why protest you say? Well simply to remind the closed mind government of ours that people still want worldpeace...
All I can say now is lets try to think forward and not backwards.
I know I may have offended some in here, but hey, this is my opinion...accept it or reject it.

We don't just do nothing, that's for sure. Then, millions of people would be dead. North Korea will have to be dealt with eventually, in my opinion. Do you not see all the American flag burnings that take place all over the world? Isn't that anti-American? What about anti-American slogans (such as "Death to America" or "America is the 'Great Satan'")??

Again, what would happen if the U.S. did not go to war in W.W. II? If it wasn't for the U.S., then Naziism would dominate all over Europe. I don't think President George W. Bush is the most intelligent man on Earth, nor do I agree with him on everything...however, I do believe that this is the most difficult 4-year-term that any U.S. President has ever dealt with. He definitely has my support, and I definitely hope that he makes the right decisions. Also, the military personnel, I wish them the best of luck. They have my support. They're out their to defend their great nation, their loved ones, and to defend the freedoms everyone in the U.S. have.

Even though we all want peace, sometimes...the hard way is the only way to go. As long as we have people that want to destroy lives, we will continue to be targeted. Because of that, peace will never be achieved by not doing anything. One day, all of the freedoms that every American enjoys may be gone thanks to all these people who want to destroy America. My family (future wife, and children, etc.) may be living in a fearing, brainwashed society. That's not the America I want to live in. I know not everyone here lives in the United States, and know that there are Europeans, and other people across the globe that post here. If I am the "minority" group around here (the only one that has these views), then I will live with that. I don't want to be hated for what I stand for, though. I love American, I'm proud to be an American...even though I didn't choose to be born there.

Thank you again.

[That Matt Guy]

I really wouldn't say the Gulf War was pointless, we did drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait. But a lot of supplies were wasted during that conflict; the US spent hundreds of hours and used over 100 planes a day looking for Iraq's phantom Scud launchers; which we never found.

[beaker]

Peace or War?
mangos and enchilada holy wars.

Cant grown men settle disputes like they do in Italy...pelting tomatoes and oranges at eachother?

[heretic888]

The way this poll was originally framed was horrendously naive and simplistic.

Peace or war???

That makes the childish assumption that not going to war is the same thing as 'peace'. Hussein isn't going away, kiddies. And neither are the suicide bomber terrorists.

[That Matt Guy]

Political Parties and foreign wars will be our countries downfall, according to George Washington.

[Reznorite420]

War, for one reason and one reason only...to improve our damn economy! (and thus increasing my chances of getting a job...)

[Eye of Sarnath]

Political Parties and foreign wars will be our countries downfall, according to George Washington.

I'm starting to wonder if he wasn't right.

[Deathknight]

War, for one reason and one reason only...to improve our damn economy! (and thus increasing my chances of getting a job...)
the only job you'll have a chance of getting is being a soldier if the draft comes back into play. Do you want to go over to fight? I know I don't... I have really bad eye sight and I have ADD. I wouldn't last very long out there. I have a life to live and the last thing I need is it to end for Bush's popularity.

[Supermik]

Peace or War?
mangos and enchilada holy wars.

Cant grown men settle disputes like they do in Italy...pelting tomatoes and oranges at eachother?

Cos' hai contro gli italiani?

belinone!

[heretic888]

the only job you'll have a chance of getting is being a soldier if the draft comes back into play. Do you want to go over to fight? I know I don't... I have really bad eye sight and I have ADD. I wouldn't last very long out there. I have a life to live and the last thing I need is it to end for Bush's popularity.


Two things:

One) the notion of the draft being reinstituted for this war makes me :lol:

Two) if you really do have bad eyesight and ADD, then they won't send you on the frontlines. you'll get a nice military deskjob. assuming the draft is used, that is.

[One Radical Dude]

the only job you'll have a chance of getting is being a soldier if the draft comes back into play. Do you want to go over to fight? I know I don't... I have really bad eye sight and I have ADD. I wouldn't last very long out there. I have a life to live and the last thing I need is it to end for Bush's popularity.

This war isn't about boosting GWB's popularity. I consider that a lie from the left.

History shows that wars in the past have boosted the U.S.'s economy. Heck, that's probably the only way the economy is ever going to start improving. If America is bombed again and again, then there won't be an economy left, will there? 9-11-01 did a lot of damage to the economy (especially to the airline industry).

[That Matt Guy]

the only job you'll have a chance of getting is being a soldier if the draft comes back into play. Do you want to go over to fight? I know I don't... I have really bad eye sight and I have ADD. I wouldn't last very long out there. I have a life to live and the last thing I need is it to end for Bush's popularity.

With a comment like that, it's obvious that you have no clue about how the modern military operates.

[heretic888]

Ditto.

[Donatello02]

I dislike our so called president. His so called "war on terrorism" is nothing more then a goose chase. It amazes me after the 9-11 attack, and the goverment could not find Osama and the rest of his regime, Bush goes to the next country that just happens to also be a Muslim nation AND have had past desputes before. This whole thing is stupid. I hear pro Bush people telling me "well if we don't fight for our country from being attacked, we'll get pushed around, blah blah blah we're not p*ssies blah blah blah" the same crap over and over again. What attack. What threat. Do you honestly think Saddam is a threat? I know people will say "well the UN found some weapons and so on" but if he did have these supposed weapons of mass destruction, why hasn't he tried anything on us? He's had 12 years after all! And after 9-11, we were wide open, he could have done anything be it another attack or something else to cripple the US. When you get down to it, it really is pointless. But of course not to Bush. Why? Oil. Period. He may throw allegations that this countries security is at risk. Pff. Please. Oil is what Dubya wants, and oil is what Dubya is gonna get.

Notice how North Korean publicaly opens a power plant capable of producing the very materials needed to produce weapons of mass destruction. Sure they didn't flat out say "we're gonna make weapons of mass destruction" but for Christ's sake, they are a bigger threat then a tiny country with a crumbling economy and goverment system. North Korean on the other hand is a very strong, capable country under a communist goverment. Ya see what I'm tryin to say?

[Reznorite420]

Not only is Deathknight ignorant about how the military works, he's also ignorant with economics!

If there is a war, it will no doubt create a lot of vacancies in the job market, thereby giving people an easier chance of finding work. Look how WW2 got us out of the depression!

And besides, I'm not going to be drafted first if it ever comes to that. They start with the 21-year-olds first. They're definitely NOT sending the inexperienced ones out to fight; the purpose of the draft is mainly to find people to fill in slots where the active-duty personnel are now gone from just in case there aren't enough reservists (sp) in the country for them.

[Donatello02]

Oh and by the way, this whole thing about other countries being "anti-American" and so on. They are pretty much right. America opresses the other countries in order to keep it's dominant position. I'm gonna be honest and say I don't agree with our goverment, and our president. And flag burning isn't exactly "anti-American" if anything. Todays "flags" are treated better then most third world children. Honestly, if this country is so damn free, people can burn some flalg anytime they damn well please.

[Tokka-B]

Well said, Donatello02...If I was able to be on for longer, I would make a worthwhile post too. All I will say is all we will get out of this war is an unwanted government in the middel east, tony blaire losing his job, and future terrorist attacks, maybe even more severe... :(

Now I have to part, cya. :wink:

[heretic888]

Ah.... sweet, sweet naivette. So we meet again.

[One Radical Dude]

And flag burning isn't exactly "anti-American" if anything. Todays "flags" are treated better then most third world children. Honestly, if this country is so damn free, people can burn some flalg anytime they damn well please.

If one is burning a flag of the United States, that IS being anti-American. Those morons don't realize the people who are out there fighting for their country. They're defending people's freedoms, defending their loved ones, defending the American people, and more. I never said that people don't have the right to burn flags. I also have the right to look at them as haters of their own country.

[Donatello02]

Our troops? Honestly, most of them are in it for the money due them not being able to pay for college and tuition. The goverment cares less about our troops as well. They are nothing but mindless weapons to them. I'm not saying the goverment doesn't CARE about our soldiers, but it's not as important to them in their foreign policies.

[heretic888]

And... of course, you would really know, what with your deep political contacts and resources in the government.... and your countless years of governmental service and political study, right?? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Shadow]

I'm seriously all for the war. I think that Sadam while maybe not acting on what he is capable of now up front has helped with the distruction of freedom via support to terrorist groups. He may or may not be linked to al queda (sp?) but there is subsiquent proof of his involvement with terrorist groups of many different kinds.

I think further more, the Iraqi people need to be liberated. Yes, we will go in and make it a democratic country...while that might not be the best thing to do... its better than having a leader who posins your air, drops deadly chemicals on you for fun and leaves his people in constant poverty despite the fact they are one of the world's largest exproter of oil.

I also believe that Sadam isn't as big a thret as His SON. His son is down right evil incarnet.

What REALLY scares me though is N. Korea.

Ask yourselves, would Master Splinter agree with this war? I tend to think he would. No one likes war, and fighting is bad, but sometimes its the only option you've got.

[Donatello02]

Actually smart ass, I have facts. Unlike you guys, who stick what you guys are programed to think by media which is own by coroporations which is owned by the goverment. You can sit there and grin like an idiot and agree with everything you hear, but I know the whole story. I could care less what you think, all I know is I have my facts. Oh and Mr. Kung Fu master nerd who spends his life on a frigging message board, you might wanna get off your mighty high horse and pull your head out of your ass. Thanks.

[heretic888]

Actually smart ass, I have facts.

Well, you certainly have never used them.

Unlike you guys, who stick what you guys are programed to think by media which is own by coroporations which is owned by the goverment.

Corporations are owned by the government, huh?? That would explain all those financial crimes that the government-owned corporations commited against the government that owned them, right??

You should probably look up the meaning of 'capitalism' in the dictionary...

You can sit there and grin like an idiot and agree with everything you hear, but I know the whole story.

And I'm sure you garnered this 'whole story' from your deep political resources in the White House, right?? :roll:

I could care less what you think, all I know is I have my facts.

You obviously care, or else you wouldn't be getting upset about it. And, once again, you have yet to reference any 'facts' in this discussion.

Oh and Mr. Kung Fu master nerd who spends his life on a frigging message board, you might wanna get off your mighty high horse and pull your head out of your ass.

You might want to quit resorting to personal attacks. They demean the validity of your position.

[Donatello02]

I stick to my comment. Come off your high horse.

Read Noam Chomsky's work, and William Blum. You'll get your facts then. Oh and my "validity" is still here, no matter how many times I call you a jack ass.

[heretic888]

Read Noam Chomsky's work, and William Blum. You'll get your facts then.

Telling me to 'read these here books' is not presenting or accurately portraying any facts. You have still presented nothing to support your arguments outside of infantile name-calling.

Oh and my "validity" is still here, no matter how many times I call you a jack ass.

Not at all. Instead of presenting counterarguments or empirical references to counter my position, you lower yourself and resort to personal attacks. This just makes your position seem untenable to the outside observer.

[Tokka-B]

Yes, I agree. Heretic, you are the one starting personal attacks, that is why I was afraid to even post here, calling me a naivette...yea, not insulting at all... :roll:

I am tired of arguing whether to go to war or not, it seems everyone has made up their mind and will not change, so now I am just predicting horrible things to come of this war, as every war has horrible things. Just cause we think a leader is evil, doesn't mean we can just go shoot him up and get rid of the regime....otherwise this Bush regime probly wouldn't be here, LoL

I can't type anymore now, as I have to get off, cya.

[One Radical Dude]

Actually smart ass, I have facts. Unlike you guys, who stick what you guys are programed to think by media which is own by coroporations which is owned by the goverment. You can sit there and grin like an idiot and agree with everything you hear, but I know the whole story. I could care less what you think, all I know is I have my facts. Oh and Mr. Kung Fu master nerd who spends his life on a frigging message board, you might wanna get off your mighty high horse and pull your head out of your ass. Thanks.

First of all, I wouldn't be calling people a "smartass" or whatever. Krang wouldn't like this at all. Second, the media isn't always right. I don't believe in EVERYTHING I hear. It seems like they're the 'anti-war' media, in my opinion. Facts?! If you have facts, then where are your sources? Hmm??

[Donatello02]

Wow, hypocrisy is beast isn't it heretic.

fine you want your facts. Here they are:
an account from William Blum, left the State Department in 1967
In 1998, the State Department issued a report listing Cuba amongst those nations alleged to "sponsor terrorism". Curious about this, I called up the State Department and was connected to what they called "The Terrorism Desk", where a man told me that Cuba was included because "They harbor terrorists." "So does the United States," I replied. "The Cuban exiles in Miami have committed hundreds of terrorist acts, in the U.S. and abroad." The gentleman exploded. "Sir," he cried in a rising voice, "that is a fatuous remark and I will not listen to such nonsense!" And he hung up. It's always fascinating to observe how a True Believer reacts to a sudden, unexpected and unanswerable threat to his fundamental ideological underpinnings. The Cuban exiles are in fact probably the longest lasting and most prolific terrorist group in the world, and they're still at it. In the past year or so they've been busy bombing hotels in Havana, all directed from Miami.Cubans are not the only terrorists enjoying safe haven in the United States. There are Haitians, Salvadoreans, Guatemalans, Indonesians, and others guilty of terrible crimes against humanity, walking around free as can be in the United States. They were, and perhaps still are, allies of U.S. foreign policy objectives. Take the example of Former Guatemalan Defense Minister Hector Gramajo. In 1995 a U.S. court ordered Gramajo to pay $47.5 million in damages to eight Guatemalans and a U.S. citizen for his responsibility in the torture of the American and the massacre of family members of the Guatemalans (among thousands of other Indians whose death he was responsible for). Gramajo was served a court summons in 1991 as he graduated from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, where he had studied on a scholarship provided by the U.S. government. The judge stated that "The evidence suggests that Gramajo devised and directed the implementation of an indiscriminate campaign of terror against civilians." It was only following the court judgement that the Defense Department withdrew Gramajo's invitation to speak at a military seminar. For many years, and in many ways, the United States has worked with and helped such terrorists in numerous countries. Washington has taught them how to bomb, how to torture, how to assassinate, even provided them with terrorism manuals. One commonly accepted definition of terrorism is: Violence directed against civilians in order to intimidate or coerce a government or its citizens in furtherance of a political objective. The 40,000 American bombing sorties of the Gulf War and those since have claimed the lives of many thousands of Iraqi civilians in an attempt to influence the government of Saddam Hussein or induce his overthrow. Likewise the American bombings of civilians in Panama, Libya and Grenada in the 1980s directed against those governments. Imagine that the cold war is still going on, and the Soviet Union, citing some very minor pretext, filled the skies with bombers over, say, Greece, bombing the civilian population, killing hundreds or thousands, making thousands more homeless ... without having been first attacked by Greece, or threatened in any way by Greece. If this, at the time, had been called an act of terrorism, who would have objected? Well, the scenario I just described is exactly what the United States did to Panama in 1989 . The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force. And many more examples of acts of terrorism by the U.S. government can be cited, even the more classic kind -- in 1985, in an attempt to assassinate a certain Muslim leader in Lebanon, the CIA arranged for a car bomb to go off. The bomb went off, and killed 80 people, but not including the Muslim leader.

That's one example of our great goverment and it's "foreign polcies" they have their own pacific agenda. We are merely pawns my friend. Now I know you going to come back with some "Those aren't facts" or some sarcastic remark like how I don't work for the US Goverment or how these facts aren't valid and so on and so on. You can keep making excuses to yourself, I've lost interest. Thanks bye.

[heretic888]

Yes, I agree. Heretic, you are the one starting personal attacks, that is why I was afraid to even post here, calling me a naivette...yea, not insulting at all...

Actually, that post was never adressed to anyone in particular. If you interpreted it as directed at you, I suggest reading up on a little Freud....

I am tired of arguing whether to go to war or not, it seems everyone has made up their mind and will not change

The same could be said of you, Tokka.

so now I am just predicting horrible things to come of this war, as every war has horrible things.

Yes.... such as the cultural revolution of Alexander's conquests in the Mediterranean. Or, the development of international order and communication resulting from World War II. Or, the growth of human rights resulting from the American liberation of the Revolutionary War. Or the abolition of slavery resulting from the American Civil War. Or the amazing advancements in science and education resulting from the Cold War. War is a double-edged sword, my friend.

Just cause we think a leader is evil, doesn't mean we can just go shoot him up and get rid of the regime....

No, but when said regime is in clear violation of Resolution 1440, unanimously ratified by the United Nations Security Council, then we can back up international order by force if necessary.

[heretic888]

That's one example of our great goverment and it's "foreign polcies" they have their own pacific agenda. We are merely pawns my friend. Now I know you going to come back with some "Those aren't facts" or some sarcastic remark like how I don't work for the US Goverment or how these facts aren't valid and so on and so on. You can keep making excuses to yourself, I've lost interest. Thanks bye.


Actually, that wasn't a 'fact' at all. That was one man's very biased account of discussions he had had with 'nameless individuals'. He brings up numbers, but doesn't support them with primary sources.

Why is this important, you say?? Well, anyone can make up statistics or numbers on the spot. Example: 90% of all Americans are Communists. I just made that up. No primary resource. No support. But if I have political influence, and write a book, then someone out there is gonna actually believe that erroneous statistic. No, what happened with the individual quoted here obviously isn't as ridiculous as the fake statistic I made up, but the fact that he fails to cite a single primary resource piques the observer's curiosity, no??

To tell you the truth, that whole passage struck me as little more than extreme liberal rhetoric with no empirical support whatsoever. I remain unimpressed.

[Voltron]

Hussein is mentally unstable. He has tortured and killed millions of his own people. He is demanding scientist build him nuclear weapons. He is not so strong now, but if we do not kill him, YES KILL THE BASTARD, we run the great risk of him building a nuclear weapon, and holding the entire middle east hostage.

To people who think that this war is sensless, youre idiots plain and simple. By protesting this war you are protesting the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who are starving under this egotistical maniac, let alone the rest of the middle east. That's why we have to stop this mad man. Because he is nuts. This inane war as you call it may very well liberate a nation.

Another reason we must attack Iraq is because we've been attacked ourselves. We have to show the Middle Eastern nations that we will no longer tolerate any of there ass crap. We must strike them hard, and leave a lasting impression. My tax dollars pay for the bombs, I want to see them dropped.

If you want peace, the only ways we can get it is through all out "war" with Iraq, or by creating an alternative energy source that makes oil obselete. So to summarize

1) Iraq War isn't sensless, Saddam has private holocaust party going on over there

2) America hating hippies should be deported to Iraq, France, or North Korea. See how they like it there

3) Saddam is a psychopath

4) America kicks more ass than anything ever. God/Goddess/Buddah/Allah/Vishnu bless the US

[Deathknight]

Not only is Deathknight ignorant about how the military works, he's also ignorant with economics!

If there is a war, it will no doubt create a lot of vacancies in the job market, thereby giving people an easier chance of finding work. Look how WW2 got us out of the depression!

And besides, I'm not going to be drafted first if it ever comes to that. They start with the 21-year-olds first. They're definitely NOT sending the inexperienced ones out to fight; the purpose of the draft is mainly to find people to fill in slots where the active-duty personnel are now gone from just in case there aren't enough reservists (sp) in the country for them.
I never said I believed that it wouldn't help the economy. It probably would be good for the economy. I had also thought that they wouldn't send me over with my conditions but my parents are telling me that I am a body and can use a gun and that's all that's important which would qualify me to be sent over. I really don't want this war and I don't think it's necessary regardless.

[That Matt Guy]

I had also thought that they wouldn't send me over with my conditions but my parents are telling me that I am a body and can use a gun and that's all that's important which would qualify me to be sent over. I really don't want this war and I don't think it's necessary regardless.

No offense, but your parents don't know what they are talking about. Deathknight, read this:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/us-draft.htm

[Donatello02]

To Heretic. I knew you would come back with some fault or excuse to make yourself feel better. Fine, great. Facts are facts, you can believe them or deny them. I'm done.

As for Voltron, you seem like an intelligent and funny person, and I respect that, but you must remember, our goverment's foreign policies aren't that to better the nation, or to better humanity. Of course not, they have their own agenda, be it for money, power, or something greater that they can use to their disposal. You say Saddamn kills many innocent civilians, yet if this war were to happen, we would be doing that very same thing you believe is wrong. More innocents lost. More lives gone. Our goverment could care less about loss of innocent life, as long as it's for the better of our "national security" then everything is fine and dandy. Those peoples lives mean nothing to our goverment. Heck, even out troops, OUR OWN SOLDIERS, the goverment could care less about them. As long as they do what they are told, fight the good fight and kill all that stand in opposition of the US, then it's all good. Our nations cares nothing about other countries and their human loss be it at war or due to tyrranical rule or mistreatment. Look at North Korea. Bush should be taking his time and effort to make better policies with them instead. But no, he won't, not for now. Why? Because North Korea, even though more of an open threat, better assets, and a stable economy with one of the great military forces in the world, is not on top of the very precious oil that Bush has his eyes on. "War on Terrorism" and "Secure our Nations security" are nothing more then an excuse to keep the US to agree with our goverment. Is Iraq REALLY a threat? What happened to Al Qaeida? What happened to the REAL war on terrorism? Simply put, it went up and ran. Now, with nothing else to put forth effort and policies, what better then a nearby Muslim country which has had a history with the US, AND has the very thing needed for our economy and is in short supply of. Honestly, 12 years Saddam has had to attack America, even after 9-11 when our country was at its weakest state. But did they? Of course not. When it all comes down to it, our goverment and it's foriegn policies are nothing more then hypocrisy. They have their own agenda, be it to fight terrorism for freedom or to take out "rogue states" in order to stay in it's dominant possition. All great empires are the same. A great man once said though...Todays empires are tomorrows ashes. Payce.

[Shadow]

4) America kicks more ass than anything ever. God/Goddess/Buddah/Allah/Vishnu bless the US
Funnies thing i have heard in a LONG time.

[Donatello02]

Oh and by the way...if the so called "anti-american hippies" were deported to Iraq, France, and North Korea...I don't see a problem. If they go to Iraq, they have a chance to change things that needed to be the right way instead of careless discarding of lives. If they were sent to France..mmm, breads, cheeses, amazing food, and champagne. Oh and the scenery and the woman...what's wrong with France? And for North Korea. Lemme tell you, I'm Korean, my parents hail from South Korea, and North Korea is probably one of the better (IF ANY) communist country. Plus, great food again. Good food indeed.

[One Radical Dude]

He's a Warmonger... (http://komotv.com/qt/kvi/real_peace_320x240_dl.mov)

Interesting ad that I was showed to yesterday.

[Voltron]

Oh and by the way...if the so called "anti-american hippies" were deported to Iraq, France, and North Korea...I don't see a problem. If they go to Iraq, they have a chance to change things that needed to be the right way instead of careless discarding of lives. If they were sent to France..mmm, breads, cheeses, amazing food, and champagne. Oh and the scenery and the woman...what's wrong with France? And for North Korea. Lemme tell you, I'm Korean, my parents hail from South Korea, and North Korea is probably one of the better (IF ANY) communist country. Plus, great food again. Good food indeed.


Why France should be sunk into the sea....

1- France refuses to take action against Iraq because Iraq is giving them a deal on oil (same with Germany and Russia, both spineless bastards in this matter).

2- The French have no class at all. They have an annoying language, the women and men smell HORRIBLE. They are Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys. France was responsible for our involvment in Vietnam, they backed out and asked us to fight for them.

3- The French don't have fine food. They eat frogs and snails. Cheese? Everyone has cheese. I perfer Swiss Cheese.

4- The French are ungrateful! Millions of American graves lie on a Normandy beach in France. France pays them no repect, I'm sure. The low life bastards are no allies of America.

So go live there among the French people! Hippies aren't welcome because the French hate Americans, its a fact.


Why we should go to war with Iraq-

I already stated this. Go live there in poverty, you won't fix anything in a dictatorship such as Iraq. And don't think you'll even have the luxury of free speech to stand against Hussein. So go over and change the world. All are invited.

Why North Korea sucks ass-

Sir, if you have blood lines from South Korea I suggest you do some research before you hail your Northern "Brothers". Truth be told the North Korean 2 million man army sits 30 yards away from the poorly equipped and trained South Korean army.

North Korea has nuclear capabilities and is at the moment black mailing the US to open up trade with them. There are no good communist states in the world, kind sir, because they are all corrupt and twisted. Rest assured that each one of those North Korean friends of yours is just dying to unload on your family and nuke your mother land.


So let's recap

France!

Sucks because they are opposed to wars they cannot win. Which of course means any. They are rude and hate Americans.
Live here if you want to be looked down upon and bumped into constantly along with being mercilessly ridiculed for being American.

Iraq!

You love it so much move there and make the world a better place. Speak out against tyranny or what ever it is you think is wrong and then scratch your head in confusion when your shot in the knees and tortured for months on end.

North Korea!

Go ahead and immerse yourself in your home land! And some radioactive fall out as well when the "Great Communist North Koreans" nuke the hell out of South Korea and other countries in South East Asia.

The Choice is yours, for me its good ol' America. Where I can flip off my own president and know that I had every right to. Any hippie who hates freedom, please move.

[One Radical Dude]

Ugh...maybe, I shouldn't have said anything.

[Voltron]

I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm just trying to get through to some people out there who haven't gotten it through there heads. I know they have an argument against war, but petty reasons like "Bush wants votes" or "I have heritage from there" doesn't mean can't go to war to protect US interests.

There probably are good reasons not to go to war. But as of yet I haven't heard any of them.

[Machias Banshee]

Hey, sorry for going a bit off-topic, BUT....


Has Anyone here seen the thing on the news about "French" foods being changed to "freedom" foods?

i.e., french/freedom toast, french/freedom fries, french/freedom vanilla,

frnech/freedom poodle, kiss, etc? :P


How Immature is this?! I'm ready to see some sort of national referendum with us saying, " france is a big stupid head" or something...! :x

I would love to hear views on this....

[One Radical Dude]

Hey, sorry for going a bit off-topic, BUT....


Has Anyone here seen the thing on the news about "French" foods being changed to "freedom" foods?

i.e., french/freedom toast, french/freedom fries, french/freedom vanilla,

frnech/freedom poodle, kiss, etc? :P


How Immature is this?! I'm ready to see some sort of national referendum with us saying, " france is a big stupid head" or something...! :x

I would love to hear views on this....

I believe that was only for one restaurant. I think its both dumb and amusing.

This isn't the first time that the names of foods were changed. I was told by someone that it happened during WWII, as well.

[Machias Banshee]

Its slowly spreading out from capitol hill, and slowly gonna make its way to the rest of the US...its so immature...




*proud to be a French-Canadian-American*

[Kali]

Has Anyone here seen the thing on the news about "French" foods being changed to "freedom" foods?
Hey, my mom was just talking about this today. I can't remember exactly what she said, though. I know one resturant had changed the name. My first thought was "They're doing a theme thing, right?" But no...

But then again, we're talking about a species that gives out Darwin Awards, so how much can we really expect?

[Machias Banshee]

My Gahd, its happening already?! Oh the horror!!!

[That Matt Guy]

This isn't the first time that the names of foods were changed. I was told by someone that it happened during WWII, as well.

Yup. They also did it in WWI.

[One Radical Dude]

Its slowly spreading out from capitol hill, and slowly gonna make its way to the rest of the US...its so immature...


It is immature, but you have to blame France for that. If it weren't for their government's current stance on Iraq, the name changes wouldn't take place. I doubt it'll spread everywhere. If it does, I don't think it'll be a permanent thing.

[heretic888]

To Heretic. I knew you would come back with some fault or excuse to make yourself feel better. Fine, great. Facts are facts, you can believe them or deny them. I'm done.


No, Don, its very simply that you failed to cite a single primary source for even one of your 'facts'. Come to think of it, you didn't even cite a secondary or tertiary source either. That is, unless you count yourself as a 'source'.

Anyone can just make up statistics on the spot. In fact, most 'statistics' when used in everyday conversation ARE made up on the spot. You have given any of us no indication that that is not what you have done right now.

Tell me, when a 'fact' is not supported by external evidence, why call it a 'fact' at all???

As for Voltron, you seem like an intelligent and funny person, and I respect that, but you must remember, our goverment's foreign policies aren't that to better the nation, or to better humanity. Of course not, they have their own agenda, be it for money, power, or something greater that they can use to their disposal. You say Saddamn kills many innocent civilians, yet if this war were to happen, we would be doing that very same thing you believe is wrong. More innocents lost. More lives gone. Our goverment could care less about loss of innocent life, as long as it's for the better of our "national security" then everything is fine and dandy. Those peoples lives mean nothing to our goverment. Heck, even out troops, OUR OWN SOLDIERS, the goverment could care less about them. As long as they do what they are told, fight the good fight and kill all that stand in opposition of the US, then it's all good. Our nations cares nothing about other countries and their human loss be it at war or due to tyrranical rule or mistreatment. Look at North Korea. Bush should be taking his time and effort to make better policies with them instead. But no, he won't, not for now. Why? Because North Korea, even though more of an open threat, better assets, and a stable economy with one of the great military forces in the world, is not on top of the very precious oil that Bush has his eyes on. "War on Terrorism" and "Secure our Nations security" are nothing more then an excuse to keep the US to agree with our goverment. Is Iraq REALLY a threat? What happened to Al Qaeida? What happened to the REAL war on terrorism? Simply put, it went up and ran. Now, with nothing else to put forth effort and policies, what better then a nearby Muslim country which has had a history with the US, AND has the very thing needed for our economy and is in short supply of. Honestly, 12 years Saddam has had to attack America, even after 9-11 when our country was at its weakest state. But did they? Of course not. When it all comes down to it, our goverment and it's foriegn policies are nothing more then hypocrisy. They have their own agenda, be it to fight terrorism for freedom or to take out "rogue states" in order to stay in it's dominant possition. All great empires are the same. A great man once said though...Todays empires are tomorrows ashes. Payce.

Again, you have given us nothing but your own thoughts and opinions on the subject. There is not a single external source cited there. I see no 'facts', only YOUR words. And you hardly qualify as a primary or even secondary political resource.

[heretic888]

Oh and by the way...if the so called "anti-american hippies" were deported to Iraq, France, and North Korea...I don't see a problem.

The only one of those three countries which you would even be able to tolerate living in is France.

they go to Iraq, they have a chance to change things that needed to be the right way instead of careless discarding of lives.

More than likely you would be imprisoned or put to death.

If they were sent to France..mmm, breads, cheeses, amazing food, and champagne. Oh and the scenery and the woman...what's wrong with France?

Well, if you're Korean like you say, you may want to watch out for the neo-nazi contingent in France, which has a greater following there than anywhere else in the world.

And for North Korea. Lemme tell you, I'm Korean, my parents hail from South Korea, and North Korea is probably one of the better (IF ANY) communist country.

Again, if you engaged in any 'political activism' there you would be aptly imprisoned, exiled, or put to death.

By the way, saying a place is 'one of the best communist countries' isn't exactly that much of a compliment.

[Jade Green]

I'm almost tempted to ask if any one here listens to the Chris Baker show... but thats Houston Based.

[heretic888]

Nope. Sorry.

[Jade Green]

Nope. Sorry.

Actually, you could probably out argue him, Heretic. It'd be nice to hear a listener make HIM the fool for once. :D :evilgrin:

[That Matt Guy]

Does anyone ever listen to the Jewish Nazi Michael Savage?

[Jade Green]

Does anyone ever listen to the Jewish Nazi Michael Savage?

Oh wait, him? Yeah, his show airs on the same station as Chris Baker

[heretic888]

Actually, you could probably out argue him, Heretic. It'd be nice to hear a listener make HIM the fool for once.

What is he?? Some kinda Howard Stern or something??

[Jade Green]

Oy! Chris Baker is nothing like that! :dead:

He's just a talk radio host... talks about problems and news of the U.S. and Texas... says his opinion on it and has people call in and argue out their opinion.

More than not, he makes a fool out of the caller.

[heretic888]

I see.

[Donatello02]

LOL dude do you have a life Hereitc? Well I guess if your dumb enough to vote, your dumb enough to believe'em. You say I bring you false facts, and say I have no political position. What political position do you hold? What are YOUR sources? Nothing more then the media. Go "immerse" yourself into some buddhism. I told you I'm done with you. You go on and agree with everything you think you know.

As for Voltron, wow I have to say you've amazed me. So far you were able to say how much certain places suck and what I don't know. Good. Dude don't ****in tell me who and what my people are and try and sit there and lecture me about my own goddamn people. I know exactly WHAT North Korea has done in the past present and probably the near future, I was only noting that the "hippies" could care less. They go to North Korea, yay. Big frigging whoop. GO to Iraq, join the rebelion. Don't go out in the stupid frigging public and state your case. Sure, they don't have freedom of speech, but they do have people who disagree with their so called goverment. They could make a difference, and you are in no great political position to state that they couldn't. France, that crap is so stupid. Honestly, how immature is it to start calling french toast, fries, and etc. to freedom fries, toast, etc. As for France havnig horrible food, are you uneducated? Some of the best food in the culinary arts is FOUND in France. Don't give me that American slogan BS, I could care less about how they dislike Americans, god knows I don't like'em any better. Yes I agree France has backed out and they are "spineless" as you put it, but that's the goverment. Not the people. There's a difference. If other nations judged the people by how their goverment works, then I guess America is nothing but a capitlist nation built on hypocrisy, and all americans are dirty, lying, hypocrites. Right?

I can see you guys are pretty sure of yourself about your great goverment, fine, ok great. Congrats. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[That Matt Guy]

4- The French are ungrateful! Millions of American graves lie on a Normandy beach in France. France pays them no repect, I'm sure. The low life bastards are no allies of America.

There aren't millions of American graves at Normandy, more like a few thousand; which includes Canadians and British. Let's not forget that France basically saved our butts from being stomped by the British in the American Revolution; without their help we would'nt be what we are today.

[Duke]

The way this poll was originally framed was horrendously naive and simplistic.

Peace or war???

That makes the childish assumption that not going to war is the same thing as 'peace'. Hussein isn't going away, kiddies. And neither are the suicide bomber terrorists.

I can't believe i'm doing this but i agree w/ heretic. There will be no peace without war. Saddam is a pathological liar. All this i don't have weapons i do have weapons no wait i don't have weapons. That is a load of crap. HE HAS THE WEAPONS AND HIS NOT GIVING THEM UP WITHOUT A FIGHT. Sorry to all the tree lovin hippies here but thats a fact.

[Donatello02]

And our goverment doesn't lie? Are they 100% honest with the people and other nations? Of course not, they stick to what they want. Next month, it will be just another nation we have to go out and "fight for our national security". You see, the US goverment wants only 4 main things....
1) making the world safe for American transnational corporations;
2) enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress;
3) preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model; and
4) extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a "great power".
The very same thing was happening during the Cold War. The goverment exaggerated everything. The supposed animal that was the International Communist Conspiracy never existed. There were, as there still are, people living in misery, rising up in protest against an oppressive government, a government usually supported by the United States. Of course, now American propagandists can't even pretend that such a conspiracy exists to use as a pretext for intervention, so they have to come up with new enemies all the time. America cherishes her enemies. Without enemies, she is a nation without purpose and direction; without a mission. So one month it's North Korea, the next month Libya, or Iraq, or Iran, or Sudan, or that old reliable, Cuba. The Pentagon and the CIA need enemies to justify their swollen budgets, to give themselves a mission in the aftermath of the Soviet Union, and to aggrandize and protect their jobs. And in place of the International Communist Conspiracy, Washington now often claims it is fighting a War Against Drugs, which in itself is almost completely phony. Yes, these are facts. Not peope's opinions, but facts. You may say "you have no source that's reliable or with the goverment and so on" of course you're gonna think that, anything that doesn't leave those closed doors in Washington don't get to the media, and what's shown on the media only what the goverment chooses to le you hear. If you guys are interest, read works by Naom Chomsky and William Blum. Thanks, payce.

[One Radical Dude]

Don, did you even bother to click on that link I posted here?

[Donatello02]

I couldn't, it wouldnt load. Just explain to me what it was.

[One Radical Dude]

It's an ad to support the troops, but it also shows statements (from people) being said, such as "he's a warmonger", "he's lying to us", etc....stuff lots of Iraqis would like to say about Saddam, but can't.

[Donatello02]

Yes, but just because our goverment allows the people to say these things, they always deny or say and do exactly different things. It's all about hypocrisy. If you were told you can't speak your mind from a certain person, how would you feel? You'd dislike him, or even hate him. Same goes for our country. If the country allows us to speak our mind, who's going to listen? Look at some of the people here on the boards, they don't care about facts the point to the US country being the not so great goverment that is the peverbial poltical war machine full of hypocrites and lying CEOs.

[HorseTechie]

Been watching the news too, plus my husband is pretty head-strong about the whole war thing as Donatello02 (surprisingly enough). He's okay with American freedoms... but hubby does not like the American government and the way they stick their noses into other country's affairs.

And the main reason that France is not supporting our war, is because they are protecting their income. They have good standing with the oil trade in Iraq. They go to war, they loose that.

It's not really about Peace or War... but Profit or Freedom. Greed or Justice. There seems to not be one, without the other. Power struggles are what makes the world go round, I guess.

*tries to think of a time when the entire world is at peace an harmony with itself*

[Voltron]

Look Donatello, you've changed me. From now on, I'll be a great human being and rebel against my country and embrace all those who hate me like Iraq, France, and North Korea.

I'll make an even bigger difference by becoming a total hippie and marching for peace. No, scratch that, I'll march to have America sunk into the sea! Screw freedom in the ass!

Furthermore, I think that instead of thwarting North Korea from slaughtering the South Koreans, we should arm the North Koreans with weapons out the wazoo because they are so great. In fact, we should undo all the things that America has done EVER. Because our government is so incompitent and full of ********, and everyone knows thats what the country was founded on! Flagrant Idiocy and lying through your teeth.

I agree totally with Donatello because by telling me I'm wrong without legitimate reasons, he totally debunked everyone of my sourceless facts with his sourceless facts.

RECAP!

North Korea is the best nation ever!

Thats right everyone! The new hotspot is North Korea where you can go and be opressed for all your life.

Visit such historical sites as "No Where".

Plead with the starving masses as your all powerful leader feasts on his Imperial Bounty!

Be ordered to kill South Koreans and most likely be forced to eat the dead because of malnutrition!

Tell your friends that you are a citizen of a country that sparked WWIII by dropping the A bomb on the Phillipines!



Nothing screams Freedom and oppurtunity than Iraq!

Revel in your freedom to die

Oppurtunity to die lies around every corner!

You have the right to change what you think is wrong. Not really, you just DIE.

Die trying not to starve!

You'll be dying to quench your thirst with the blood of those American infidels when Saddam is graciously torturing and killing your family and friends!

Recieve upwards of $25,000 for having your kids blow themselves up on Israeli buses.



You've got a friend in France!

Be treated like **** by our number one ally!

Visit Paris and breathe in the wonderful aroma the French develop from lack of bathing

Hear why America sucks for demanding France pay off its debt from WWI and WWII!

Recoil in horror when you see that all Frenchmen are more womanly than the women!

Grow a stupid Goatee and Mustache and frolic like an idiot waiting for Germany to kick your ass again!



WOW! To think I've been missing out on all this great stuff! Donatello has really opened my eyes to some wonderful things like Poverty, Slavery, and Torture! Where do I sign up!??

[One Radical Dude]

...

[That Matt Guy]

I see bad things on the horizon. Bad things for this thread at least...

[Donatello02]

Look Donatello, you've changed me. From now on, I'll be a great human being and rebel against my country and embrace all those who hate me like Iraq, France, and North Korea.

I'll make an even bigger difference by becoming a total hippie and marching for peace. No, scratch that, I'll march to have America sunk into the sea! Screw freedom in the ass!

Furthermore, I think that instead of thwarting North Korea from slaughtering the South Koreans, we should arm the North Koreans with weapons out the wazoo because they are so great. In fact, we should undo all the things that America has done EVER. Because our government is so incompitent and full of sh**, and everyone knows thats what the country was founded on! Flagrant Idiocy and lying through your teeth.

I agree totally with Donatello because by telling me I'm wrong without legitimate reasons, he totally debunked everyone of my sourceless facts with his sourceless facts.

RECAP!

North Korea is the best nation ever!

Thats right everyone! The new hotspot is North Korea where you can go and be opressed for all your life.

Visit such historical sites as "No Where".

Plead with the starving masses as your all powerful leader feasts on his Imperial Bounty!

Be ordered to kill South Koreans and most likely be forced to eat the dead because of malnutrition!

Tell your friends that you are a citizen of a country that sparked WWIII by dropping the A bomb on the Phillipines!



Nothing screams Freedom and oppurtunity than Iraq!

Revel in your freedom to die

Oppurtunity to die lies around every corner!

You have the right to change what you think is wrong. Not really, you just DIE.

Die trying not to starve!

You'll be dying to quench your thirst with the blood of those American infidels when Saddam is graciously torturing and killing your family and friends!

Recieve upwards of $25,000 for having your kids blow themselves up on Israeli buses.



You've got a friend in France!

Be treated like sh** by our number one ally!

Visit Paris and breathe in the wonderful aroma the French develop from lack of bathing

Hear why America sucks for demanding France pay off its debt from WWI and WWII!

Recoil in horror when you see that all Frenchmen are more womanly than the women!

Grow a stupid Goatee and Mustache and frolic like an idiot waiting for Germany to kick your ass again!



WOW! To think I've been missing out on all this great stuff! Donatello has really opened my eyes to some wonderful things like Poverty, Slavery, and Torture! Where do I sign up!??

It doesn't come out sarcastic as it does stupid.

Firstly,if you knew anything, I didn't say North Korea was great, and in no where did I say the slaughtering of South Koreans is ok. You took lots of thinks out of context, I think people became stupider after reading your ignorant inane babble. Secondly, what debts do the French owe us? The French are doing the very same thing the US is doing, looking out for themselves. Third, look at your country's great rich history, what do you that makes you so damn proud of your country and it's BS goverment? Capitalism? Slavery? Genocide? Sitcoms? Guns? War? Pollution? Addiction? NAFTA? Thigh-Master? Honestly, I don't see anything to be proud of. Fourth, I never said Iraq is a great nation. Their insane dictator is in fact evil, but no more evil then the very same CEOs, politicians, and goverment officials, not to mention Cubans, Haitians, Salvadoreans, Guatemalans, Indonesians, and others guilty of terrible crimes against humanity who walk among us free as can be. Let's not forge how for many years, and in many ways, the United States has worked with and helped such terrorists in numerous countries. Washington has taught them how to bomb, how to torture, how to assassinate, even provided them with terrorism manuals. It does not matter if it's under the definition of "terrorism" or "immoral and wrong," as long as it serves our goverment and stick to their agenda, then everything is fine. Payce.

[That Matt Guy]

Third, look at your country's great rich history, what do you that makes you so damn proud of your country and it's BS goverment? Capitalism? Slavery? Genocide? Sitcoms? Guns? War? Pollution? Addiction? NAFTA? Thigh-Master? Honestly, I don't see anything to be proud of.

That's really the history of humanity, not just America.

[Donatello02]

Yes, but this kid talks like all these acts are only done by "terrorist countries."

[Tokka-B]

Hehe, wow, I really can't wait til I can actually start posting again...

By the way heretic, I am not stupid, you know that you were referring to me as the naivette, as you posted right under me, and the fact you have called me that in the past, anyway, it doesn't matter much anymore since it will only persuade you to use the term again. And when I said everyone is set with their opinions in stone, I mean me too, since I am part of everyone, aren't I? You assume I don't mean me as well though.

[One Radical Dude]

No offense, Donnie...but I view your comments as very "Anti-American." I think some of your views are too extreme. Yes, actually, it is true that many Europeans do owe the United States for the times the U.S. supported them. If it wasn't for the U.S. in World War II, then Nazism would dominate Europe today.

And your comments about the CEOs.....well, let me tell you something. If I were a millionaire or a billionaire CEO for a highly successful company that produces different things, does that make me a bad guy? No, it doesn't. Am I supposed to be unsucessful and broke? Would that make you happier? If I ever become a millionaire or a billionaire, okay...that may be great, but that doesn't mean I won't have feelings. I'm glad the U.S. is a Capitalist nation because I feel that there are more opportunities for people of all fields to become successful. If I'm the only one that thinks Capitalism works for the U.S., then that's fine. And, no, I'm not a rich dude, I'm in a low-middle class family.

Genocide....are you referring to the time period when the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbor?

Sitcoms...why did you include that??

Guns, I'm not going to get into this discussion, but I am against gun control because that takes away freedom from people who want to protect his/her family, etc.

War....as cruel as war may seem, sometimes, action is necessary.

Pollution, well, you can reduce it, but you cannot eliminate it. What I dislike is people telling folks that they discourage people from driving SUVs...and say they forbid gas-guzzling automobiles. And later on, those same people have 3, 4 SUVs of their own? Sheesh.

While I agree that government officials in the U.S. have made some bad choices in the past, that doesn't mean I'm going to bash my own country for it. Even if you are right about the CIA's decisions on training the wrong people, that doesn't mean that terrorism would be non-existent. Saddam is far worse than any politician in the United States. He GASSED his own people, man. I haven't seen George W. Bush doing that. I don't care what you people think about Bush (whether you think he's doing a good job, or you think he's the lousiest president the U.S. has ever had), he is NOT to be compared to Adolf Hitler. Saddam....HE should be the one that should be compared to Hitler. Don't forget about bin Laden and company.

I'm sorry, Donnie, but you don't seem to realize how much better off you are than those that have to put up with Saddam over there in Iraq. At least, you have the freedom to say what you want in this country (whether the government responds to your voice or not). If you did it in Iraq, you'd be shot dead in the head. Nobody deserves that.

Don't take my comments personally (as you did with heretic). If you disagree with me, please do so without trying to personally attack anyone. It will only get you into trouble here.

[Deathknight]

I had also thought that they wouldn't send me over with my conditions but my parents are telling me that I am a body and can use a gun and that's all that's important which would qualify me to be sent over. I really don't want this war and I don't think it's necessary regardless.

No offense, but your parents don't know what they are talking about. Deathknight, read this:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/us-draft.htm
Uh, I'm kinda lost... I read that entire article and I don't see any limitation that would excuse me from being drafted.

[Voltron]

Guns were invented in...HOLY CRAP!! TURKEY!
Slavery? Oh, thats European to my friend, and in fact, America was founded and owned by Europe so its no wonder that we'd have a lot the same problems as they do.

Look at a thigh master! Where are they made? ASIA. Wow, it seems that almost everything you mentioned originated or is manufactured somewhere other than America. So go on and say the inevitable argument "America sucks at manufacturing!"

If you hate America so much then leave and never come back. No, not all Muslims are terrorists! Yes, America did have slavery. Unlike Germany, who never did ANYTHING WRONG like oooh GENOCIDE, or Napoleon who was considered an ANTICHRIST. America kicks so much ass its hard to believe. But still we have hippies who participate in "Marches" because the government will not go to war because some people decided to take a walk.

Now I will finish by saying that I think the following countries suck not only in opinion but FACT

Prove me wrong Donatello by coming up with evidence that

1-Saddam Hussein hasn't killed numerous of his own people. Why is that alright?

2-France has lost everywar except the ones America fought for them?

3-North Korea is firing test missles over the Phillipines, and is holding South East Asia hostage


Oh, and by the way. France's role in the Revolution was a joke. They gave us weapons mostly, and hardly fought. In fact, I'm glad they didn't fight because the only war France ever won was the French Revolution because they were fighting against France! What a coincidence!

I hope this makes everyone stupid, too, Donatello. Because for some reason your only response to me thus far is "Wow, your stupid because I'm Korean" and "America is a Capitalist society and thats why your wrong about everything".

[That Matt Guy]

I had also thought that they wouldn't send me over with my conditions but my parents are telling me that I am a body and can use a gun and that's all that's important which would qualify me to be sent over. I really don't want this war and I don't think it's necessary regardless.

No offense, but your parents don't know what they are talking about. Deathknight, read this:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/us-draft.htm
Uh, I'm kinda lost... I read that entire article and I don't see any limitation that would excuse me from being drafted.

Well let me put it to you this way: They give you a physical and if you fail that they don't put you into basic.

[That Matt Guy]

Oh, and by the way. France's role in the Revolution was a joke. They gave us weapons mostly, and hardly fought.

Um... do a little research pal, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

[Voltron]

Oh! Matt, you are so right! France has been nothing but victorious in all of their conquests! I know what I'm talking about. You do some research on the French and post it here. My fat lazy capitalist American ass is only concerned with war and slavery and guns and lies and my stupidity!

[Kali]

Okay people, this has become a flame war. Once again, people, you need to read the rules. There are NO personal attacks allowed. If you can't discuss topics civilly, DON'T discuss them at all! This is the thread's official warning. If it heats up again, I'm locking it, and warnings are given. If any other mod or admin wishes to do so, feel free to go over my head, I'm too lenient at times.

[heretic888]

I agree with Kali here. :x

[HorseTechie]

*decides this has gone on long enough*

Kids... if you want to argue over facts, sign up for debate class, or look into law school. If you want to talk politics to the finest detail, discuss it in your world politics classroom where the knowledgable teacher can tell you what really is going on...

But this thread isn't here to call each other political idiots.