Nickelodeon: "they want to focus on the '80s toon Turtles" [Archive] - Page 2

Dragon Turtle

10-26-2009, 02:31 AM

I think the only concern about CGI is handling action sequences. TV budget CGI just isn't the best medium for hand-to-hand combat. Sure, it works well enough if you've got the laser blasts flying like Beast Wars or Star Wars, but with Turtles? Eh.

I think CGI handles action very well, I've seen some pretty impressive stuff that didn't require huge budgets, were low budgets tend to rear their ugly heads is in the environments, textures, and character movements when their not involved in a lot of action.

10-26-2009, 03:40 AM

I swear. You guys will argue and insult every little utterance like you don't know what implication is.
Keep your shirt on my dear. I wasn't nit-picking or insulting or anything. It was a true statement. Mainly because we have no other news other than "OMG NICK BOUGHT TMNT LOL". Just sit back and wait for more information. Distract yourself with the forums, internet or real life. One or the other.

As for what else to do here? I'm guessing we just do what we usually do - post whatever comes to our minds. Besides, every so often Nick will trickle out some information for the more hardcore fans to lap up.

bloodstainedwings

10-26-2009, 04:34 AM

I wish I had Billions Of Dollars So I could Make an 18+ TMNT Toon

ZariusTwo

10-26-2009, 08:07 AM

Nobody would watch it.

Drtooth

10-26-2009, 08:29 AM

I wish I had Billions Of Dollars So I could Make an 18+ TMNT Toon

Fritz the Turtle?

Hordak

10-26-2009, 10:53 AM

Would love to see all the classic villains/mutants back but in an updated more serious way!

plastroncafe

10-26-2009, 10:57 AM

I wish I had Billions Of Dollars So I could Make an 18+ TMNT Toon

I've been musing about that a lot recently. Er...creating a purely fan-made animated movie based solely on the first couple of Mirage books. Wondering what it would take and the like. Just as a purely academic exercise.

Kendamu

10-26-2009, 07:27 PM

Hey, guys! Look what I found Tristan saying on Newsarama!

As far as what Nick plans on doing, nothing solid has been said, but I’ve heard they want to do things in both the harder-edged older audience direction as well as the retro styled stuff, so we’ll see. I reckon a smash-up of the two would be neat!

http://blog.newsarama.com/2009/10/26/mirage-done-turtles-writer-tristan-jones-speaks/

It's in the comments section!

So, yeah, people who are fans of edgier Turtles don't need to lose hope just yet!

Mr._Mutant_Man

10-26-2009, 08:07 PM

I wish I had Billions Of Dollars So I could Make an 18+ TMNT Toon

With the exception of Bodycount, I don't think Turtles has ever been 18+.

The Mirage comics were more violent and a little more "adult" than the cartoon, but the material is still PG-13 at the most.

Roseangelo

10-26-2009, 08:15 PM

So, yeah, people who are fans of edgier Turtles don't need to lose hope just yet!

Honestly, the chances of Nick even wanting to do ANYTHING with the Turtles in regards to comics is slim to none. Jake Black's take on the deal (http://jakeboyslim.blogspot.com/2009/10/thoughts-on-sale-of-ninja-turtles-to.html) is the most realistic scenario.

Kendamu

10-26-2009, 08:21 PM

Nobody said anything about comics. Older audiences and edgier material is what's being gotten at here.

The comics are Peter Laird's thing. We'll have to wait through his TMNT burnout before we ever see anything from that universe again (after May).

Roseangelo

10-26-2009, 08:29 PM

Yeah, ok. I just assumed he was talking about comics 'cause that's what Tristan usually talks about. But in the general sense, while Tristan can certainly go "This would be cool!" he certainly doesn't have any more basis for his comments than any of us would that would lead anyone to believe that there is an actual chance of this happening. It remains extremely, extremely unlikely.

Kendamu

10-26-2009, 08:32 PM

Ah. I figured that he'd be a little closer to the source and would be able to get questions like, "Where does Nick wanna go with the TMNT?" answered a bit more easily than someone like myself... who as of right now I'm getting answers like, "I dunno. Sorry," and, "Nick's in control of that now so I dunno."

Even if not in the Mirage universe, respecting the older audience and the younger audience simultaneously through intelligent writing would blow me away in terms of awesomeness.

strawberryfields

10-26-2009, 08:39 PM

My last remaining hope is that they do something about the racist and sexist overtones in the original toon.

oh come on, its ninja turtles for christ sake, theres nothing racist or sexist.

turkishproverb

10-26-2009, 08:56 PM

Honestly, the chances of Nick even wanting to do ANYTHING with the Turtles in regards to comics is slim to none. Jake Black's take on the deal (http://jakeboyslim.blogspot.com/2009/10/thoughts-on-sale-of-ninja-turtles-to.html) is the most realistic scenario.

Although he was wrong on the "no collections" theory, or at least the logic behind it. The mirage sourcebook wasn't really a comic or Graphic novel by normal definition, being mostly text including prose stories. Something like that would be more a book than a comic or graphic novel, and as such outside the bounds of the agreement on letting mirage do things entirely. Which is not to say that the rights to do TPB's are clear, just that it isn't related to the most likely reasons for canceling the sourcebook.

Roseangelo

10-26-2009, 09:04 PM

Although he was wrong on the "no collections" theory, or at least the logic behind it. The mirage sourcebook wasn't really a comic or Graphic novel by normal definition, being mostly text including prose stories. Something like that would be more a book than a comic or graphic novel, and as such outside the bounds of the agreement on letting mirage do things entirely. Which is not to say that the rights to do TPB's are clear, just that it isn't related to the most likely reasons for canceling the sourcebook.

Jake made a Twitter/Facebook comment (http://twitter.com/jakeboyslim/status/5175721223) clarifying the Mirage Universe situation this morning.

Although I don't know what you're referring to when you say the "no collections theory" was wrong, because we aren't going to be seeing any collections. Not from Mirage, and likely not from Nick.

lambofun

10-26-2009, 09:07 PM

I wish I had Billions Of Dollars So I could Make an 18+ TMNT Toon

bodycount anyone, that was as graphic as i wanted to see the turtles

turkishproverb

10-26-2009, 09:18 PM

Jake made a Twitter/Facebook comment (http://twitter.com/jakeboyslim/status/5175721223) clarifying the Mirage Universe situation this morning.

Although I don't know what you're referring to when you say the "no collections theory" was wrong, because we aren't going to be seeing any collections. Not from Mirage, and likely not from Nick.

Let me try again.

Originally when it was posted (by you on your blog),

The inability to publish TBPs is why the "Mirage Universe" book, which had been scheduled for a December release, has now been canceled (as reported via Jake Black on Twitter and Facebook this morning).

and just before that
Beyond that, they are (likely) allowed to do reprints, so long as they are between 32-48 pages, which rules out the publication of any trade paperbacks.

The only evidence I could find resembling these things being the stuff said by Jake about his project being canceled.

I was merely pointing out that this wasn't really accurate, as it is not a comic in any sense, but rather a prose book, that was canceled. I was also pointing out that as such it would fall out of the range of the agreement as we know it regardless of length and TPB issues. If I missed something about required length of product to qualify as a "comic" being listed by someone in the know, I apologize and would love a link.

That's not to say we'll seen them, just that I've seen no evidence of a ban/legal problem with collections. I'll admit to also not seeing evidence they'll happen.

Roseangelo

10-26-2009, 09:22 PM

I was merely pointing out that this wasn't really accurate, as it is not a comic in any sense, but rather a prose book, that was cancelled. I was also pointing out that as such it would fall out of the range of the agreement as we know it regardless of length and TPB issues. If I missed something about required length of product to qualify as a "comic" being listed by someone in the know, I apologize and would love a link.

That's not to say we'll seen them, just that I've seen no evidence of a ban/legal problem with collections. I'll admit to also not seeing evidence they'll happen.

I think we have mutual misunderstanding here, 'cause what's on my site is accurate. The page count thing came straight from Dan. He implies that they could do REPRINTS, but they would have to be single-issue reprints, not TPB collections.

And it's true that Mirage can't do a book longer than 48 pages. This nixes the Mirage Universe book, and the fact that it's prose, not a comic book, nixes the ability to divide it into 48-page segments.

I think we're actually on the same wavelength here, just getting strings crossed at some point.

turkishproverb

10-26-2009, 09:25 PM

I never noticed the comment from Dan about not being able to do collections. I'll try to find it. Other than that, yea we're agreed.

Roseangelo

10-26-2009, 09:27 PM

I never noticed the comment from Dan about not being able to do collections. I'll try to find it. Other than that, yea we're agreed.

Well, collections would be longer than 48 pages, which is out of the scope of what Mirage is allowed to do.

turkishproverb

10-26-2009, 09:28 PM

Yea, I never noticed a post about the page limit. I'll try to find it.

raphaelprime

10-26-2009, 09:41 PM

If you ask me, i wouldn't at all rule out a 2k3 style series coming from Nick. Just with their own stories and takes. One of the reasons they bought them was so they could target their male audiance. If you look at their shows(ones of their own and even the Marvel ones) most of their shows are for young kids and early teen girls, but hardly anything for the boys(Wolvie and i think Ironman maybe are the only ones really), whereas their competition, Disney and Cartoon Network have plenty to offer their male targets.

Until i hear differently from Nick themselves, i'm expecting a blend maybe of 2k3 with the '87 toon. And i'll expect to have the same problem with the new series i had with 2k3, never getting to see it. Cause i don't get ToonNick or NickToons Network(whichever it is) that currently airs Wolverine and the X-men(which i don't get to see either, least not as they air), and i would be willing to bet that's where they put them.

Mr._Mutant_Man

10-26-2009, 10:54 PM

That page limit thing sucks. Especially considering that Nickelodeon probably isn't going to have anyone else publish comics.

I wish they had sold the Turtles to someone else, like Disney or WB (Marvel or DC).

Drtooth

10-27-2009, 08:56 AM

I wish they had sold the Turtles to someone else, like Disney or WB (Marvel or DC).

If they did, do you really think they'd let their respective comic companies handle it? Really, as far as the comic goes, that's the biggest concern that I have.

Andrew NDB

10-27-2009, 11:17 AM

If they did, do you really think they'd let their respective comic companies handle it?

Probably. Wherein lies the problem.

People that want TMNT to be published at something like DC or Marvel really haven't thought things through.

Still, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be at least curious how either company would approach the TMNT.

Sage Ninja

10-27-2009, 12:39 PM

I'm kinda of hoping that this is just a "remake" of the 80's toon with a harder edge than the previous series. But with different scenerios, maybe do some archie based stories. Maybe it could be in the same tone as season one but harder hitting perhaps.

If they are going to focus on the 80's toon the one thing I hope they keep alive is the equal status all the turtles had with each other. The 80's was mostly about all of themand they more or less had equal attention because they where all pretty much had the same importance in the team dynamic. One thing that has always bugged me about the "serious" versions of the turtles is that there is to much hiarchy. There are things that make sense for Leo or Raph to do but not Mike and Don and vice verca. The 80's didn't have this so much.

Also I really hope they get rid of the CGI idea. I can see the turtles looking decent enough but human characters always look like ass in CGI form. Eighther they're too realistic looking or not realistic looking enough, but it always look awkward.

TurtleGuy

10-27-2009, 02:29 PM

If they do keep with this CGI idea, I'm really hoping they go with a cel shaded look since it really gives the feel of simplistic 2D art. Something akin to the 2k7 movie wouldn't be too bad, but I'd really love cel shaded turtles.

Drtooth

10-27-2009, 04:22 PM

Still, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be at least curious how either company would approach the TMNT.

I'd want to say that both companies would focus on the animated versions of them and possibly not take the comic book into consideration at all.

raphaelprime

10-27-2009, 05:01 PM

Still, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be at least curious how either company would approach the TMNT.

I would take a bet on(if it were Marvel) a cross over with the Avengers or Spidey, considering they're NYC residents. Actually i could already see that in my head, Saki somehow returns(like villians do in Marvel*cougMagnetocough*) and teams up with Doc Ock or someone and Peter must seek out the turtles' help in dealing with the threat.

Dragon Turtle

10-27-2009, 10:00 PM

If they did, do you really think they'd let their respective comic companies handle it? Really, as far as the comic goes, that's the biggest concern that I have.

There still is a good chance that the turtles would find their way through the massive corporate pipeline to each companies respective comic book publisher, whether or not Marvel or DC would actually be given dominion over them.

Mr._Mutant_Man

11-01-2009, 09:05 AM

People that want TMNT to be published at something like DC or Marvel really haven't thought things through.

DC and Marvel are good at having the old material available. We'd see TPBs of all the old stuff at least.

Other than that, at least there would be a better chance of new TMNT comics, even if they weren't all that great. Who knows what could happen with the right creative team.

turkishproverb

11-02-2009, 08:08 PM

TristanHuwJones

11-02-2009, 08:29 PM

DC and Marvel are good at having the old material available. We'd see TPBs of all the old stuff at least.

Other than that, at least there would be a better chance of new TMNT comics, even if they weren't all that great. Who knows what could happen with the right creative team.

IDW and Dark Horse are FAR better at having older material available, especially when it comes to obscurities, which a lot of the good Mirage stuff is. DC and Marvel are not going to bite. Marvel have already nixed the idea of crossovers with the Turtles because they don't see them as money making material, IDW and Dark Horse however have both expressed some interest in the property.

Aztec General

11-02-2009, 09:44 PM

I've yet to see any official statement from Nick on the direction they want to take. I doubt they even know at this point. So let's look at what we've had and try to speculate on what we might get.

There have been 4 major TMNT canons over the past 25 years:

1) Mirage Comics TMNT (Image Comics being a subdivision)
2) 1987 Animated TMNT (Archie Comics being a subdivision)
3) 2003 Animated TMNT (Dreamwave Comics being a subdivision)
4) Movieverse TMNT (Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation being a subdivision)

I'm imagining that the 2012 Animated TMNT will mark the beginning of the 5th major iteration of the TMNT. I have no idea what course it will take, but I highly doubt it will similar to either of the previous 4 versions.

CyberCubed

11-02-2009, 09:55 PM

I'm imagining that the 2012 Animated TMNT will mark the beginning of the 5th major iteration of the TMNT. I have no idea what course it will take, but I highly doubt it will similar to either of the previous 4 versions.

Nick wants to re-create the TMNT boom from the 80's and 90's. The only thing preventing Krang/Bebop/Rocksteady and other old characters from appearing in the 2k3 series and/or comics was Peter Laird. Not counting the DTV.

Now that he is out of the picture, Nick is free to do whatever they want. The fact that the old toon made such an impact that it and its characters have always overshadowed the comics and 2k3 series for the general population, means they're probably going to try and re-create that formula for a new generation of kids.

Turo602

11-02-2009, 10:03 PM

I would like to see a cartoon with lots of action, dark, and is a mixture of the most definite versions of the TMNT 80s, 2k3, and the comics.

SwordofTengu

11-07-2009, 12:39 PM

:roll: I did enjoy the old show, but the new show is much more entertaining to me!

Lieutenant Granitor

11-07-2009, 12:42 PM

Double-Post :O

Candy Kappa

11-07-2009, 12:49 PM

Double-Post :O

yes... It happens :P

Lieutenant Granitor

11-07-2009, 12:51 PM

yes... It happens :P

Like Forrest Gump says, SH*T HAPPENS lol

Hordak

11-07-2009, 01:41 PM

Well I hope like someone said earlier in the thread they take the approach Mike Young Prod. took with the 200X Masters of the Universe series, keeping the classic characters in but updating there look & actions. The bad guys weren't completely dumb & didn't always miss there shots! They could fight back & pose somewhat of a threat. I don't think I would mind new characters to much as long as it wasn't knocking someone out of the picture. Somethings I hope to see Rocksteady & Bebop(not as dumb & can fight), a tough cajun Leatherhead, Shredder, Baxter(as a fly eventually), Krang with Stone Warriors(Gen.Tregg & Lt. Granitor?),Slash, Casey Jones, Metalhead, & do more with Dirtbag & Groundchuck, Mutagen Man, Scumbag, Antrax, &Mondo Gecko. And people that never got a chance like Ray Fillet & Pizza Face.

Dejablue

12-11-2009, 02:29 AM

I'm sure this doesn't come to a surprise to any of us, but is anyone feeling a bit mixed on it?

When Laird was in control I was bummed by the fact that a new show that resembled the OT more would never happen again. But now I feel the opposite, I'm bummed that nothing resembling the NT will ever happen again.

Anyways a mix of the OT and the NT would be the perfect show for me, I hope thats what they go for. And even if its nothing like the NT and mostly like the OT I'll love it.

Yeah this is how I feel. I should be jumping for joy but actually I have come to a draw about which series I love more.

So I'm blindly hoping for Turtles Forever: The Series!
Hayul yeah! That's too many characters to keep up with!
And having 8 turtles who share the same names would be kinda confusing....*le sigh* I just made myself sad...

ryukenden

12-11-2009, 05:28 AM

I don't mind if the new show is a combination of the OT and the NT. I did like the fact that Splinter was Hamato Yoshi rather than just being a very smart rat. As long as the Shredder is a threat, that is fine by me as well. I definitely would like Bebop and Rocksteady to be menacing like they were in the first season rather than being dumb henchmen.

I do have a solid idea, why not have Bebop and Rocksteady be members of the Purple Dragons before their mutation? I don't mind if they make Krang a renegade utrom like Ch'rell was. Definitely a human Shredder. As for the Turtles themselves, I'd rather see them exactly as they were in the NT but let Mikey be more like he was in OT.

Godzilla

12-12-2009, 10:18 AM

Having the new show as a amalgam of the OT, and the 2k3 show is about as good of a mixture one could really hope for following the news of Nick wanting to focus on something like the 1980's cartoon. Hopefully, that's the kind of show we will get.

odupianist

12-14-2009, 08:04 AM

I think Murph got rid of his blog, but he posted a pitch idea that came across the table before BttS came out. I still stand by the thought that that is what they will end up doing something close to. Anyone have that post archived or anything?

Chris

12-14-2009, 03:20 PM

I don't have the post but I think I know the one you mean.

Playmates pitched an "Ultimate" Ninja Turtles which used a lot of characters from the old toon and Archie and Splinter was mutated from Hamato Yoshi again instead of an oridinary rat.

Obviously Playmates were hoping the old toon/Archie character would lead to an increase in sales.

The Splinter was Hamato Yoshi angle would never have worked 6 seasons into the show, but most fans were onboard with the OT/Archie elements being brought in.

That's if I remember right.

Either way it was far better than the baby Turtles ideas that were floating around at the time.

Dejablue

12-14-2009, 06:29 PM

If thats true then I guess those Mutanimals fans may have something to be happy about.

But I'm curious about what you guys think. Maybe I'm not the only one trying way too prematurely to formulate what Nickelodeon plans to do with the Turtles. But if its true that they plan to go more 80's/Archie then what kind of stories or plots do you think Nick capable of generating?

CrazySquirrel

12-14-2009, 10:25 PM

A mix of the 03 turtles and archie would make me so happy. The archie comics were a great mix of good story telling and being still kid friendly. I would love to see Mondo Ray and the Null storyline in season 2 or 3.. And Shredder krang baxter bebop rocksteady etc. I believe in nick but 03 was so good nick has a lot to live up to. I don't see nick going so goofy that we are all upset at nick... They have always had a good current feel to their series.

Dejablue

12-14-2009, 10:57 PM

I'm hoping they give the Turtles some character development. Ahem. Well more specifically Mikey and Donatello.

EDIT: And to be honest I'm getting a wee bit tired of Shredder coming back again and again and again and again...

Well I'd be ok with it if he wasn't established as the paramount threat every single freakin time.

CyberCubed

12-15-2009, 08:20 PM

EDIT: And to be honest I'm getting a wee bit tired of Shredder coming back again and again and again and again...

Shredder is too marketable to be gone for long for the cartoons and movies. Hence why he keeps coming back.

odupianist

12-16-2009, 07:48 AM

Shredder is too marketable to be gone for long for the cartoons and movies. Hence why he keeps coming back.

Agreed. Due to the 80's toon, he's become the main villain in the public eye. For those of us who have read the Mirage comic, we know that's obviously not the case.

Godzilla

12-16-2009, 11:53 AM

Agreed. Due to the 80's toon, he's become the main villain in the public eye. For those of us who have read the Mirage comic, we know that's obviously not the case.

Shredder's has been viewed as THE chief TMNT villain for a good long while now. He's basically to TMNT, was the Joker is to Batman. Or what Dr. Doom is to the Fantastic Four. Shredder is the guy people want, or at the very least, fully expect to see facing off against the Turtles when it comes to media outside of the Mirage comics. The '87 series really kickstarted this notion, and the 2k3 animated series took great advantage of the Shredder as a villain as well.

As far as public perception goes, the only villain that comes close is Krang. And that's due to the overwhelming public perception the '87 toon has on the TMNT franchise. If Nick plans on being more like the '87 series than let's say the 2k3 series, then I sincerely doubt that perception is going to lessen anytime soon.

Dejablue

12-16-2009, 12:04 PM

*Facepalm* Well lets hope the writers are competent enough to come up with good secondary villains at least.

Cipher

12-16-2009, 12:36 PM

The Fred Wolf cartoon actually did have a great cast of secondary villains. Maybe the best TMNT's ever had.

Unfortunately, they rarely made an appearance.

holy_guacamole

12-16-2009, 12:59 PM

I don't care. The cartoons live on on DVD. There will always be Turtle cartoons, movies and other media.

It's the loss of the comics that saddens me. They're pulling the plug on both Tales and TMNT volume four this May.

Dejablue

12-16-2009, 01:02 PM

The Fred Wolf cartoon actually did have a great cast of secondary villains. Maybe the best TMNT's ever had.

Unfortunately, they rarely made an appearance.

Yeah it's like they forgot about them most of the time. And poor Baxter.

holy_guacamole

12-16-2009, 01:10 PM

Agreed. Due to the 80's toon, he's become the main villain in the public eye. For those of us who have read the Mirage comic, we know that's obviously not the case.
Yeah, but he's such a great villain. So's Karai. I like it best when the Ninja Turtles are doing ninja stuff. Fighting Shredder, Karai and the Triceretons were cool. But, then, the comics had weird villains like Savanti Romero (I may be alone in not liking him, Renet, the time scepter and any issue they appeared in), the gangsters who stole Casey's favorite golden cow, and that washed up group of super heroes Mike and Casey come across in Northampton.

Some of the villains in the comics were as goofy as the '87 cartoon.

Plus, Shredder has a connection with the Turtles past and that automatically makes him a great choice for a villain. He killed Splinter's master and, because of that, Splinter specifically trained the Turtles to avenge Yoshi's death. It's simple, it's evil, it's dark, it's ninja--I like it.

I know it's cliched, but, to me, Shredder is the main villain.

Dejablue

12-16-2009, 01:37 PM

holy_guacamole

12-16-2009, 04:39 PM

You know what I don't get. Why the 80's toon seemed to just randomly decide that Mikey's chucks were evil and pulled them. But every other incarnation of the turtles sans Next Mutation let him keep them. I wonder if that'll happen again here? What kind of wacky and seemingly random censorship panel says chucks are good here but aren't here. Was it just the time frame? Did nun chucks become legal in 2003?

I do believe they were outlawed in Europe in the 80's and 90's--if not directly outlawed, then considered unsavory. But they were banished from television. Many European TV stations, when broadcasting Turtle episodes, cut out Mikey any time he used his 'chucks. The UK was notorious for this. So, the producers of the cartoon decided that, rather than have Michelangelo edited out of all fight scenes, the nunchucks would go all together and be replaced by a grappling hook.

The movies were like, "Screw that, this is Hollywood," and put nunchuck wielding Mikey in the movies. Again, in the UK, these scenes were cut from the film.

By the time 2003 rolled around, the "evil nunchuck ban" in Europe had been lifted.

What I don't get is why Leonardo could run around with razor sharp swords and Bebop and Rocksteady could shoot at everyone with blasters, but nunchucks were considered bad.

Godzilla

12-16-2009, 07:53 PM

I do believe they were outlawed in Europe in the 80's and 90's--if not directly outlawed, then considered unsavory. But they were banished from television. Many European TV stations, when broadcasting Turtle episodes, cut out Mikey any time he used his 'chucks. The UK was notorious for this. So, the producers of the cartoon decided that, rather than have Michelangelo edited out of all fight scenes, the nunchucks would go all together and be replaced by a grappling hook.

Ah, yes.

Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. :neutral:

holy_guacamole

12-16-2009, 08:01 PM

Ah, yes.

Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. :neutral:

That is the lamest title I've ever heard.

Dejablue

12-17-2009, 12:28 AM

How the hell whirling sticks on a chain are more lethal than a razor sharp sword I'll never know.

EDIT: Well actually after thinking about it my guess is,

Kids cant get a hold of blasters or swords. They've been hitting each other with sticks since the beginning of time. But tying two objects together and swinging it around poses a danger to themselves and their friends all those other weapons you aren't as likely to hurt yourself (Since what ever the kid has in hand is obviously going to be make believe)

Mix this with angry parents groups...and you have a ban

odupianist

12-17-2009, 07:59 AM

Some of the villains in the comics were as goofy as the '87 cartoon.

But that's what a lot of people forget, the comic started off as (and still has elements of) a parody. None of this was meant to be taken seriously. So we are going to have villains that can "make their own cole slaw" and demons that can time travel. Do I have "goofy" villains that I like more than others? Yeah, but I can say Shredder isn't at the top of the list.

holy_guacamole

12-17-2009, 11:13 AM

But that's what a lot of people forget, the comic started off as (and still has elements of) a parody. None of this was meant to be taken seriously. So we are going to have villains that can "make their own cole slaw" and demons that can time travel. Do I have "goofy" villains that I like more than others? Yeah, but I can say Shredder isn't at the top of the list.I know it's described as a parody, but it seems much more like an homage. I mean, I may be missing some of the jokes. I get the connection between the cover of TMNT 1 and Ronin 1. I get the connection Between Splinter and Daredevil's sensei, stick. I get the connection between the Foot and the Hand. Also, the Turtle's origin is similar to Daredevil's. Teenage mutants are teenage mutants whether turtles or X-Men.

I just never saw the series as a whole as a parody. I thought issue one was a parody that was never intended to become an actual series. Once the ball got rolling, I always thought that it was taken seriously.

heretic888

12-17-2009, 09:12 PM

I know it's described as a parody, but it seems much more like an homage. I mean, I may be missing some of the jokes. I get the connection between the cover of TMNT 1 and Ronin 1. I get the connection Between Splinter and Daredevil's sensei, stick. I get the connection between the Foot and the Hand. Also, the Turtle's origin is similar to Daredevil's. Teenage mutants are teenage mutants whether turtles or X-Men.

I just never saw the series as a whole as a parody. I thought issue one was a parody that was never intended to become an actual series. Once the ball got rolling, I always thought that it was taken seriously.

TMNT stopped being a parody around the time Leonardo was nearly beaten to death by the Shredder and April's shop was burned to the ground.

Honestly, the defining moments of the TMNT comic series are issues 9-10, 19-21, and 48-62 in Volume 1. While TMNT certainly had its share of goofy adventures and villains, these central story archs were clearly intended to be taken seriously.

Dejablue

12-17-2009, 11:34 PM

I hope the use Bishop again. I started to really get into this character. He was cold, calculated, strong, and not Shredder lol.

I even think there's more that can be done with the character. I hated how he was a good guy in FF. Felt like they ruined him by making him good.

Venom

12-18-2009, 12:10 AM

How do you know Bishop was actually good? Perhaps he was "lawful evil" but was more subtle regarding any underhanded dealings since he was the President.

Dejablue

12-18-2009, 12:16 AM

How do you know Bishop was actually good? Perhaps he was "lawful evil" but was more subtle regarding any underhanded dealings since he was the President.

Do they ever come out and say this? Or even hint at it? I'm pretty sure he had gone good in FF unless I forgot something.

holy_guacamole

12-18-2009, 12:54 PM

TMNT stopped being a parody around the time Leonardo was nearly beaten to death by the Shredder and April's shop was burned to the ground.

Honestly, the defining moments of the TMNT comic series are issues 9-10, 19-21, and 48-62 in Volume 1. While TMNT certainly had its share of goofy adventures and villains, these central story archs were clearly intended to be taken seriously.

Issue nine is actually one of, if not the, favorite issue of mine. Raph's using tomfas and Mike's using the manriki-gusari, but it was still a great issue. It was probably the most "ninja" of all the issues: Don hiding in the rafters, Mike hiding in the fountain. Great stuff from a bunch of twelve year old turtles.

I also liked twelve. That one was good too. The scene where Leo and Raph are hiding amongst the rocks in the river was pure ninja gold.

Ten through eleven was also good stuff, as was Leonardo one (as they were all the same story arc)

As for the Return to New York storyline, eh. I wasn't a big fan of the artwork and, talk about parody, the way they brought Shredder back was just laughable in my opinion. I prefer the Rick Vietch River storyline.

As for City at War, I've yet to read it. I only have a handful of issues from that storyline, and I'm waiting until I have them all. Of course, finding them isn't easy. I've cleaned out every comic shop around here of everything Turtle.

But the chase is part of the fun. I'm also missing issue seventeen. Haven't been able to find that one anywhere.

heretic888

12-18-2009, 02:15 PM

Issue nine is actually one of, if not the, favorite issue of mine. Raph's using tomfas and Mike's using the manriki-gusari, but it was still a great issue. It was probably the most "ninja" of all the issues: Don hiding in the rafters, Mike hiding in the fountain. Great stuff from a bunch of twelve year old turtles.

I also liked twelve. That one was good too. The scene where Leo and Raph are hiding amongst the rocks in the river was pure ninja gold.

Ten through eleven was also good stuff, as was Leonardo one (as they were all the same story arc)

As for the Return to New York storyline, eh. I wasn't a big fan of the artwork and, talk about parody, the way they brought Shredder back was just laughable in my opinion. I prefer the Rick Vietch River storyline.

As for City at War, I've yet to read it. I only have a handful of issues from that storyline, and I'm waiting until I have them all. Of course, finding them isn't easy. I've cleaned out every comic shop around here of everything Turtle.

But the chase is part of the fun. I'm also missing issue seventeen. Haven't been able to find that one anywhere.

Yeah, those were all good issues. I only highlighted "Return to New York" and "City at War" because those are the world-shaping events for the TMNT characters and story. Personally, I thought the artwork for "Return to New York" is quite possibly the best the TMNT have ever had in Mirage and the way they resurrected the Shredder was extremely original and creative, I fail to see how it is a parody of anything.

Two personal favorites of mine, even though they are definitely not iconic TMNT stories, are #17 "Distractions" and #43 "Halls of Lost Legends" from Volume 1. You should also really check out #48-49 "Shades of Gray" which functions as a sort of prologue to "City at War".

As for "City at War" itself, in my opinion it is THE defining TMNT comic book story. There really hasn't been anything else like it in the TMNT world, as it was essentially a 13-part story arch with a very strong beginning, middle, and ending. I was so hoping the 2007 movie was going to be based on "City at War" but, alas, we got a goofy story about Aztec stone golems and transdimensional critters coupled with Mike having ADHD and Don being a background character.

Dejablue

12-18-2009, 02:46 PM

heretic888

12-18-2009, 06:15 PM

I thought this mysterious new movie was supposed to have the City at War plot line but now that may not be the case with Nickelodeon at the wheel.

And as far as 07 Mikey goes. I don't think he was dim witted or had ADHD. What he was was borderline non-exsistant. The same goes for Donatello. You didn't really have much to go on for either of their characters. All I know is that skate board segment was awesome...

I was under the impression the new TMNT movie was supposed to be an origin retelling along the lines of "Batman Begins" with a strong basis in the Mirage story. Which, incidentally, would have been awesome. I'm unsure if this will still be the case, however....

Oh no doubt, both Mike and Don were background characters in the 2007 movie. That's what made it even worse. Mike had all of 10 lines in the 2007 movie, and half of them were stuff like "Yeah, your mom!" (in conversation with his brother) and "Hehe, I'm smart!" (right before fumbling and falling on his head). He comes across as a childish hyperactive idiot whose only real concern is skateboarding (as opposed to it just being a hobby of his). If he were a human, he'd be the kind of kid most people would assume would just drop out of high school and make ends meet working a minimum wage job for the rest of his life.... as opposed to witty artist and writer he is in the comics.

It'd be nice if Nick reinvents the wheel, so to speak, with how both Mike and Don are treated as character. Unlikely, but nice.

Powder

12-18-2009, 06:47 PM

The Stryker

12-18-2009, 06:50 PM

Contracts must always be honored, that is the case here plain & simple. A darker re-telling of the turtles origin. The only main thing that nick can alter is the level of intensity (ya know, how much violence we get, if any) & rating.

Nick has no control over the rating they receive. I'm pretty sure that's all put on by another party.

I just hope the show is actually good. I haven't enjoyed a Turtles series since the OT ended.

Dejablue

12-18-2009, 10:42 PM

Lol I feel bad for you. You couldn't eek any enjoyment out of the 2k3 series? Not even a sliver?

On a random note. I was watching the Next Mutation on Youtube with a friend for laughs. But oh my God that show ....There is just so much wrong with it and ironically enough, for me the fault isn't all on the Venus character. The costumes, the story, the choreography, the SCRIPT. It's all just so lame. We were either falling asleep at how boring it was or groaning and face palming at all the crappy one liners. I actually thought Venus was the best character in the show if only because she wasn't a total ding bat like the others were. she probably would have faired better if she wasn't a turtle. Maybe a generic lizard like Mona Lisa or even a human. Hell she could have been a re imagined April O' Neil.

The Stryker

12-19-2009, 01:02 AM

Lol I feel bad for you. You couldn't eek any enjoyment out of the 2k3 series? Not even a sliver?

Don't feel bad for me, I feel bad for you.

I hated that show after the first season.

Dejablue

12-19-2009, 01:14 AM

Don't feel bad for me, I feel bad for you.

I hated that show after the first season.

Awwww. Well...I do kinda want stoner pizza obsessed Mikey back.

Andrew NDB

12-19-2009, 03:16 AM

Contracts must always be honored, that is the case here plain & simple.

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/don-corleone.jpg

Settle all debts.

Dejablue

12-20-2009, 02:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrRAsptkRfc I find these videos interesting, especially all the weapons based videos. Perhaps with screen capture they could give us some pretty good fights. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXBIy_jSoQw part 1 of the whole series I think. The weapons show up in the later videos. Note these videos notoriously de sync.

This series focuses even more of weapons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRPwRVkD2VI

I'd make a whole new topic about this but I'm not sure where I'd put it. I'm just trying to say that all of this would look pretty neat in CGI if Nick insists on going that way.

Do you think the show might look like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDJoQLit_7k

Spitfire

12-20-2009, 05:14 PM

Do you think the show might look like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDJoQLit_7k

If it does I'm out.

Dejablue

12-20-2009, 05:19 PM

Well its 3D. so i'm just going by what 3D shows aimed at kids I've seen in the past. And this being one of the most recent it seemed like a likely idea. So why do you hate this style? Is it the animation or do you just hate this show? (it seems most 'rawr' StarWars fans can't stand it)

I mean it's pretty decent looking for made for tv CGI. Plus the fight scenes (I've seen) are quite nice.

Ugh I remember an old Nick show called Butt Ugly Monsters. Now that was a hack job

TurtleNinja

12-20-2009, 05:42 PM

...

I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I am. Please don't tell me they're going to wreck TMNT...

While in respect to those who enjoy the classic 80's style of TMNT, I feel that it's very retro. I hope that they bring up a sophisticated look for the turtles, if they wanna focus on the eighties-styled turtles then they had better do it right. I don't wanna see them fighting against evil banana-cronies anymore.

Spitfire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDJoQLit_7k < I completely agree, that would suck.

I'm beginning to feel panic, I feel the words "Major screw up" coming along in the future.

TMNT is a huge franchise, are they going to take things seriously? Does the majority of TMNT fans enjoy the less-sophisticated 80's style [or Archie comic style], or do they enjoy the 2k3 sophisticated-style?

Dejablue

12-20-2009, 05:45 PM

Arg someone answer my question! If this show is going to be CG then why does the Clone Wars style suck? I need an explanation.

TurtleNinja

12-20-2009, 05:49 PM

Arg someone answer my question! If this show is going to be CG then why does the Clone Wars style suck? I need an explanation.

^.^' we're just discussing faults and opinions...

It's the style of that particular CGI that sucks...

Dejablue

12-20-2009, 05:51 PM

Hmmm...Well what other CGI shows are there that don't 'suck'? Quality and style wise of course. Between This...and...Jimmy Neutron my window of tv computer graphics shows is kinda small.

I mean I watched some clips of clone wars and to me its decent. It's like...what is it? The lighting? The texture? The run cycles? Is it too blocky? too cartoony?

But let me try again. Forget the style for a moment. What about the quality? How does that hold up?

norinrad2

12-20-2009, 07:13 PM

Uughhh, I really hope they don't ruin the property.The 2003-2009 animated series was excellent. It's a shame it's no more. I think I almost felt kinda sad at the end of the Turtles Forever movie. :tmad:

TurtleNinja

12-20-2009, 08:03 PM

Well I guess we all will have to stay tuned and see what happens :)

Lordmylar06

12-20-2009, 08:16 PM

TMNT is a huge franchise, are they going to take things seriously? Does the majority of TMNT fans enjoy the less-sophisticated 80's style [or Archie comic style], or do they enjoy the 2k3 sophisticated-style?

I have to point out that the 80's toon and the Archie comics are 2 different things here. I would LOVE if they took the Archie universe and storyline and ran with it. It had great art, it's own decent stories and an ongoing plotline. Not to knock the 80's toon, but it didn't seem to have much of a plot past one episode at a time and a goofy tone to boot.
As much as I enjoyed the 2003 toon for implementing stories and ideas from the original Mirage comics, I wouldn't think a continuation of that plot or style would benefit Viacom(Nick) if they plan on making the TMNT their own.
I can't speak for a majority of TMNT fans, but if I could have my wish it would be to see the Archie TMNT animated with a Mutanimals spin-off toon if the idea was successful, and while it's not a new idea or would it be Viacom's "mark" on TMNT history, it's still an existing TMNT universe that hasn't been explored much outside of the comic books that has alot of potential for their target audience.

Dejablue

12-20-2009, 10:36 PM

But Cudley the Cowlick scared me...

turkishproverb

12-21-2009, 12:45 AM

Dejablue

12-21-2009, 03:36 AM

Reboot and Beastwars actually stand up better than most cg today.

qualitywise Clone wars isn't bad, its the style that is a problem.

Yeah those two shows aged well. Kinda. I've watched clips of it on youtube and you can tell they're old. Surely you can get something better with today's technology. What else is 3D right now? Iron Man? I haven't watched that show so I have no idea what the quality is.

TurtleNinja

12-21-2009, 11:15 AM

Like I said, we just need to wait and see what happens. And I say we have a little more than a two year wait... till then I don't know what they'll do to satisfy our boredom :-P

Sage Ninja

12-21-2009, 11:26 AM

Oh no doubt, both Mike and Don were background characters in the 2007 movie. That's what made it even worse. Mike had all of 10 lines in the 2007 movie, and half of them were stuff like "Yeah, your mom!" (in conversation with his brother) and "Hehe, I'm smart!" (right before fumbling and falling on his head). He comes across as a childish hyperactive idiot whose only real concern is skateboarding (as opposed to it just being a hobby of his). If he were a human, he'd be the kind of kid most people would assume would just drop out of high school and make ends meet working a minimum wage job for the rest of his life....as opposed to witty artist and writer he is in the comics.

My God spoken for truth. Why is it every incarnation of Michelangelo since the 80's toon and live action movies keeps getting worse and worse and more more childish and insufferable.

Awwww. Well...I do kinda want stoner pizza obsessed Mikey back

**slaps you** slander!

TurtleNinja

12-21-2009, 11:32 AM

My God spoken for truth. Why is it every incarnation of Michelangelo since the 80's toon and live action movies keeps getting worse and worse and more more childish and insufferable.

Yeah I don't like the fact they sent Mikey down the Turtle food chain a bit... some writers just don't know what they're doing <.<

I haven't read the comics, but if he was an artist and a writer in the comics, I would definitely LOVE to see that brought back in the new TMNT TV series and the new movie.

Dejablue

12-21-2009, 12:21 PM

I wonder what TVTropes would call this. Character Derailment?http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment or http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

Oh well isn't there already another Mikey's personality topic someplace else?

and...OW! Wat? He was like my second favorite character back then! Can't he be like...the cool Mellow surfer dude who also happens to like writing and art?

METALHEAD

12-21-2009, 02:37 PM

this is the kind of CGI i am more acceptible with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy_and_Chum_Chum

if you seen it. the texture of the CGI is alot better than jimmy newtron.

i dunno. i rather have the turtles with with then any other... the chracter's eyes are all shiney...

heretic888

12-22-2009, 12:29 PM

Yeah I don't like the fact they sent Mikey down the Turtle food chain a bit... some writers just don't know what they're doing <.<

I haven't read the comics, but if he was an artist and a writer in the comics, I would definitely LOVE to see that brought back in the new TMNT TV series and the new movie.

Yeah, Michelangelo is into creative writing and comic books in the Mirage & Image (and to a lesser degree Archie) worlds. One of the issues in Volume 1 is actually a story that he wrote.

But, really, though I wouldn't say that although the artist stuff is part of Mike's character it isn't his main shtick in the comics. What really makes him stand out as a character, his most poignant and defining moments, is that he is really the most human of all the turtles. Adopting a pet cat (Klunk), making sure a bunch of kids get their presents on Christmas (Michelangelo one-shot), rescuing a government scientist who had been torturing him for days (Archie series' "Blindsight" story), refusing to take the life of a stray cat even though it meant Klunk would die in his place (Tales Vol 2), deciding to watch over April and Shadow when the turtles go their separate ways (Vol 2), patching up Raph's teddy bear for him when they were kids (Tales Vol 2), and crying in front of his brother's grave (Image series/Volume 3).... these are the defining moments of his character. He is really the Everyman of the four, the one that comes across as the most human, the most sociable, the most sympathetic... that is completely missing in the 2K3 Mike, who by contrast comes across as an attention-seeking selfish brat.

Sorry for the thread derail. As you were. :D

Koi

12-22-2009, 12:46 PM

Yeah, Michelangelo is into creative writing and comic books in the Mirage & Image (and to a lesser degree Archie) worlds. One of the issues in Volume 1 is actually a story that he wrote.

But, really, though I wouldn't say that although the artist stuff is part of Mike's character it isn't his main shtick in the comics. What really makes him stand out as a character, his most poignant and defining moments, is that he is really the most human of all the turtles. Adopting a pet cat (Klunk), making sure a bunch of kids get their presents on Christmas (Michelangelo one-shot), rescuing a government scientist who had been torturing him for days (Archie series' "Blindsight" story), refusing to take the life of a stray cat even though it meant Klunk would die in his place (Tales Vol 2), deciding to watch over April and Shadow when the turtles go their separate ways (Vol 2), patching up Raph's teddy bear for him when they were kids (Tales Vol 2), and crying in front of his brother's grave (Image series/Volume 3).... these are the defining moments of his character. He is really the Everyman of the four, the one that comes across as the most human, the most sociable, the most sympathetic... that is completely missing in the 2K3 Mike, who by contrast comes across as an attention-seeking selfish brat.

Sorry for the thread derail. As you were. :D

I'm prob. the only one who prefers the bratty selfish version, I'd rather have that then the Mirage. To me it is more of something I'd rather read/watch then some writer, noble "human" like Mikey. Hell, I'd never want a dang "human" like turtle. If anything throughout the years I have been wanting them more animalistic rude barbaric things. Not something that would patch up a damn teddy bear *face palm*...

MorganaV

12-22-2009, 07:45 PM

Dejablue

12-22-2009, 07:55 PM

Gotta say, not having much hope for the Nick TMNT show. Nick hasn't made a good show in ages other then avatar. Plus not looking forward to the return of the goofy turtles, I like the serious darker turtles better.

But thats what I'm hoping for. That its something serious in tone. I don't think Nick is totally incapable of making a good show. Besides they said specifically that they think the Turtles is only for Boys so maybe that means they'll try to be less soft and more hard.

ryukenden

12-23-2009, 04:10 PM

I'm just hoping the Turtles would use their weapons more often and as long as they don't get destroyed all the time.

norinrad2

12-23-2009, 06:12 PM

Well Nick has the new iron man cartoon which is really good 'cause it doesn't follow in continuity w/ the movie or any of the comics. It's it's own entity. Wolverine & the Xmen is pretty good too keeping somewhat in tone w/ the 90's cartoon & the new fantastic 4 cartoon is pretty good aswell 'cause it's different from the previous incarnations. I mean I think Viacom will be wise enough to know that they can't ruin the tmnt because they're going to lose such a massive fan base. Hope to hear some positive news on the new movie. :shredder:

Andrew NDB

12-23-2009, 06:29 PM

I think Viacom will be wise enough to know that they can't ruin the tmnt because they're going to lose such a massive fan base.

Where's my lolcopter?

On point, what they are wise enough to know is in their recognition of the proven, historical potential that TMNT can breed in a particular generation of fans (which, so far, has been extremely transitionary from one to the next)... not necessarily the fans (ever dwindling, and outgrowing TMNT) and fandom (just a couple hundred crazies like you or I, really) it has right now. They want to recreate the original TMNT boom and follow that business model for a new generation of little tykes.

So no, they don't covet the existing fans but they know it isn't necessarily good business sense to completely alienate them either.

Dejablue

12-26-2009, 01:37 AM

What kind of weirds me out, if the rumors are true. Is what they did with Avatar. I heard they were hesitant to show new episodes because the show as attracting an age group much older than what Nick wanted.

I can't really understand why they'd do that if its true. Which is really bad for the Turtles since their reputation is driven by nostalgia.

norinrad2

12-26-2009, 01:22 PM

Well wake up call for Nick; I don't think the tmnt boom will ever be as huge as it was when the 1st cartoon came out. The 2003-2009 show was great & did extremely well but it still didn't make the turtles super stars again. It's a shame that show came to an end because it was the definative turtles cartoon. I suppose the comics are gonna come to a close eventually too. I know Peter Laird may or may not continue to publish 'Tales of...' 'till 'bout 2010. I seriously hope this doesn't put a stall to releasing all the mirage stuff out on tpb or something. I can't believe Nick would do something like that to Avatar. Who cares what demographic your attracting. Just seems retarted to me.

Andrew NDB

12-26-2009, 03:18 PM

Who cares what demographic your attracting.

Pretty much anyone and everyone at production studios looking to maximize revenue.

Gyt Kaliba

12-26-2009, 03:24 PM

It makes sense on some level, but I've never understood why just because you're attracting an older audience should mean a show has failed - in my opinion, for what it's worth (nothing), that means you've suceeded more really, when you can make a cartoon that's appealing to kids AND adults.

I honestly think I'm among the people who like the old toon the best, but I did grow up with it after all. That and, it's been years since I've REALLY seen much of it, so it could be the nostalgia and I could be wrong. I loved the new toon though, so this idea of a mix of the themes and stuff really appeals to me.

Just so long as it doesn't mess up the idea of a darker movie that's supposed to be under way too, then I'm good with it. I do wish it was going to be animation instead of CG though.

norinrad2

12-26-2009, 03:33 PM

I get what you mean but I believe if a show aimed a kids is attracting older audiences aswell would naturally only make the show alot more successful & not entirely have studio/executives alter the shows original format/content in any way. But in the scheme of merchandising bonanza's it make a whole lot of sense.

Dejablue

12-26-2009, 04:29 PM

Yeah that makes sense. If you're trying to attract a demographic who will buy toys (mainly children). Then attracting adults and teenagers is a waste of time and essentially you've failed. The adult most likely won't buy the toy unless its for his/her own child or something. Although this still makes no sense as far as Avatar was concerned.That show wasn't going out of its way to sell toys to my knowledge...

But I always figured kids like what older people like. So if you can get teens to adults liking the Turtles then surely the tykes would eat it up too, right?

Kendamu

12-27-2009, 08:55 PM

Who cares what demographic your attracting.

Anyone with a blog or a YouTube channel can answer that question for you.

Dragon Turtle

12-31-2009, 12:49 AM

Yeah those two shows aged well. Kinda. I've watched clips of it on youtube and you can tell they're old. Surely you can get something better with today's technology. What else is 3D right now? Iron Man? I haven't watched that show so I have no idea what the quality is.

The animation is a bit stiff in the Iron Man Armored Adventures series, and the cell shading tends to make things look a bit washed out.

Even though they never produced an animated series before, Blur Studios, who've done work in the past for Nick, would be an interesting choice to produce a TMNT series, I really like the look of their "The Goon" mock up:

http://www.aintitcool.com/images2009/FinalGoodExSm.jpg

Imagi wouldn't be a bad choice to produce a tv series, especially if they use the human designs from Gatchaman.