Superheroes? or not Superheroes? [Archive]

Leo656

03-19-2003, 04:41 AM

And I answered this on the list. :) I'll give a much shorter answer here...

Depends on the continuity and/or your own point of view. I mean I think the cartoon continuity definitely painted them as super-heroes. Their war with Shredder was almost equally a personal thing as well as a "protect the city" thing. Not to mention all the other bad guys they fought just cuz it's the right thing to do.

I guess someone who only followed Mirage and took it entirely word for word as gospel could argue decisively that the Turtles were not "super-heroes". But for the most part, I think it relates to an individual's point of view. All you have to do is read all the fanfic out there to see that a million different people see the TMNT a million different ways.

Shellfox

03-19-2003, 06:43 AM

If were talking superheros like spider-man and batman- NO, They may be heros but I don't see them as "super", I can't really explain it,

Karpo_007

03-19-2003, 07:07 AM

They are not really heroes in Mirgae or the new cartoon. But they are that In the old one.

Tinselcat

03-19-2003, 08:12 AM

if being a superhero means you have some sort of superpowers, i guess it would be no. although the turtles are certainly unusual, their power comes from their minds and physical abilities. of course, batman didn't have superpowers... okay, now i'm just confused. i'll shut up now.

Karpo_007

03-19-2003, 08:24 AM

Superhero is something who patrols and lives to protect the innocent. :lol: Well something like that. And the original TMNT do not fall in to that cathegory.

lethrhd

03-19-2003, 02:35 PM

Dem turtle boys may be pert near entertainnin' but dey far from bein superheroes...

Karpo_007

03-19-2003, 04:30 PM

Yeah, if they do see some punks attacking innocent people while they are out they will probably help, But they don't patrol the streets looking for crime.

The_Realest

03-19-2003, 09:07 PM

I consider a super-hero someone who fights for justice and against evil. IMO, this was never really a characteristic of the turtles. The main reasons they were always fighting evil-doers was because the bad guys started it. They never went out looking for trouble, the trouble always came to them.

ZigFB

03-20-2003, 03:02 AM

Well, if you go by the new comic, they technically ARE super heroes, seeing as how Mike got admited into the super hero hospital. Sure, they are unorthodox superheroes, but they still are a brand of super hero.

Karpo_007

03-20-2003, 03:05 AM

Well from what I've heard, the new volume is quite diffrent from the older ones. Im still going at City at War, then Volume 2 before I can read volume 4....

CookSux

03-20-2003, 03:20 AM

Well I haven't read the original Mirage books, but the 4th volume books from 5+ (the ones I own) kinda suck. They aren't super anything, just civilians. You'll know when you read it.

Karpo_007

03-20-2003, 03:40 AM

The TMNT aren't supposed to be super anything. They are just mutants that tend to get involved in things.

beaker

03-20-2003, 05:27 AM

Do they wear embarassing spandex and underwear over said spandex? Do they have names that end in 'man'? Do they have secret alter egos? No.
TMNT are born from indie comics(a stark alternative to mainstream super hero comics) and as such they have remained that way.

So are TMNT super heroes? Not in the least bit. Do they kick serious ass?
Oh yeahhh!

Supermik

03-20-2003, 05:46 AM

Sure that TMNT are superheros!
Have you some doubt about?

The Defibrillator

03-20-2003, 09:06 AM

I didn't have doubt about it, I just wanted to see what everyone else here thought.

I personally think that ya don't need to have spandex, or name that ends in "man" to be a superhero, so IMO the TMNT are supheroes, meaning, they have special powers (mutation), and they fight crime (although not seeking it out).

Supermik

03-20-2003, 09:43 AM

Excuse me but my previous post wouldn't be a rebuke for you.

I was and i'm sure that TMNT are superheros. I'm sure that all TMNT fans think that TMNT are superheros!

They have special powers and they fight the crime so they are superheros!

Heros in an half shell!

The Defibrillator

03-20-2003, 09:46 AM

right on, supermik!

*high five*

Donatello

03-20-2003, 09:57 AM

superhero can mean so many things. for the turtles it's all a mtter of circumstance, yes, they're heros but not for a career. that's what i think makes the tmnt special their careers aren't as heros but they do have some hero traits.

i really don't know

Karpo_007

03-20-2003, 11:09 AM

Yeah, if they see criminals attacking innocent people, they will probably interfere. But they didn't battle the foot because they are "evildoers".

HorseTechie

03-20-2003, 11:30 AM

Yeah... I don't think the TMNT were intended to be superhereos when they first came about in the Mirage comics. They certianly didn't have that "with great power comes great responsiblity" take. The only superhereo connection they had was that it was a spoof from Daredevil and Ronin. Splinter only taught them to be ninja for two reasons: to avenge the death of Splinter's master, and to show them how to stay hidden from the human world.

But when the first cartoon came out, it seemed they wanted to give them more of the superhereo feel. Which makes me wonder, how one does one define "Superhero". If the fanboy thinks it has to be a human, with powers not typical to humans (i.e. leap the Empire state building in a single bound, or shoot webbing from their wrists), and run around in spandex outfits having innocent civilians from harm, then of course that fanboy will not think
a Ninja Turtle is a superhero.

But then you look at the established superheroes, like Batman, Daredevil, or the some of the Xmen... and aside from running round in ass-tight outfits, they don't really have "super" powers that aren't like what the TMNT may have.

I'm not much of a fan of superheroes, but I can see how one can make a
good arguement as to how the TMNT can be. Since they had started off
as a parody of Daredevil (who also had gotten his 'powers' from a can of radioactive substance) then how does that differ from the TMNT? The turtles also have gotten their 'powers' from a can of rather similar looking radioactive substance. Of course, it was called a mutagen, which caused a
mutation. All of which seems to be a different concept from a
superhero getting powers. Hrmm... sounds like the same kind of
concept to me. Cause if Peter Parker wasn't going through a kind of
mutation when he became 'Spiderman', I dunno how else to describe
that. :P

Now that I have thoroughly confused everyone, I go now...

ZigFB

03-20-2003, 02:51 PM

I say, we leave it at monkeys.... And the new comics don't really suck, they're trying to give everyone time to get themselves familure with the return. Also, if you read 1 - 8, they really aren't that bad. They tend to hold together pretty well, and the turtles look great, however the humans don't... Mick Jagger lips and all...

Sparvid

03-20-2003, 03:52 PM

I'm sure that all TMNT fans think that TMNT are superheros!Well, seeing how "NOPE" has got 11 votes so far, I would guess that you're wrong... ;)

lhb412

03-20-2003, 09:10 PM

If I remeber correctly the dictionary deffinition of a Super-Hero is a hero with special powers or abilities. The TMNT are giant walking talking Turtles but they have now super powers so I'd classify them with Batman, Zorro, and the Green Hornet: Action Heros.

Donatello

04-14-2003, 08:40 PM

i hate to bring up old threads, and i'm sorry, but i think a quote from the original mirage's "return to ny" should clear this up

Donatello: We're not the guardians of society raphael...we never were

Nickokapo

04-14-2003, 09:21 PM

Karpo already quoted that :lol: but it's ok anyways.
Well i do not think of the turtles as superheroes, they do not have super powers, neither where they looking for justice, they were looking for revenge.
Now if we are talking about the cartoon, i would call em heroes, but just heroes...i dont think they fall into the superhero category.

Aztec General

04-14-2003, 09:42 PM

There's also a similiar quote in "City At War". In fact there the TMNT have a brilliant discussion on their role in society during this saga. At one point Leo (I believe) refers to the Turtle's trouble with the Foot as "Splinter's war" (or something very similar).

The new animated series has gone at great lengths to stress the "Ninja" aspects of the TMNT. In addition Leo, Don, and Raph often kid Mikey for his references to being superheros.

Semi-Spoiler
Episode 12 involves Mikey going off on his own and trying to be a superhero! Which in and of itself states that the TMNT aren't traditional heros to begin with.

So with that being said, I say NO the TMNT are not and were not meant to be superheros in the traditional sense.

Donatello

04-14-2003, 10:51 PM

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 07:02 AM

Well in the new show there are few things that does make them look like heroes. Like trying to save Garbageman. Of course, the whole episode felt kind of out of place to me.

Donatello

04-15-2003, 09:27 AM

Well in the new show there are few things that does make them look like heroes. Like trying to save Garbageman. Of course, the whole episode felt kind of out of place to me.

i liked garbageman, plus they weren't nbeing to heroic, they were just tryin to find thet're buddies.

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 10:42 AM

heretic888

04-15-2003, 11:13 AM

The turtes definitley arent 'super' heros in that they possess no abilities that a human could not attain.

The turtles in the Mirage format and so on aren't really heros, either, because they dont go out of their war to do heroics. The turtles dont go patrolling.

HorseTechie

04-15-2003, 11:15 AM

Hrmm.. I didn't consider that act a superhero thing. I just thought the TMNT went after the Garbage man to sooth their conscience so they didn't feel like they just killed a guy, unfairly trapped in a wheelchair contraption. You know, to follow more of their bushido teachings of honor, et al.

And... I think the TMNT will have doings with the homeless again... from what I heard. :wink:

heretic888

04-15-2003, 11:20 AM

Bushido?? Pssh...

They should have done more research into the show, I think.

Firstly, ninja dont realy do bushido. Thier basic philosophy and approach contradicts bushido in many fronts.

Secondly, bushido doesnt really have a problem with letting someone die.

Thirdly, ah screw it....

HorseTechie

04-15-2003, 11:37 AM

Hey, I didn't write the show. I was just recalling what I heard in the last episode, in all that jazz Saki was telling Leo. Which.. at that point, they seem to be using more of the samurai philo more than anything. :roll:

heretic888

04-15-2003, 11:38 AM

which is why they should have done more research. ninja follow budo, not bushido.

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 12:08 PM

Well they should have explained the homeless people... It was big deal to Splinter when Aprils saw the turtles, so why are the homeless people any diffrent? And yes, first rules to heroes are that you won't let even bad people die. They do act like heroes in the new cartoon, to some extent atleast.

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-15-2003, 12:36 PM

which is why they should have done more research. ninja follow budo, not bushido.
True, although Leo can be kind of samurai-esque at times.
The TMNT are definately more Budouka then Bushi.
(But what about bugei?)

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-15-2003, 12:38 PM

heretic888

04-15-2003, 12:52 PM

True, although Leo can be kind of samurai-esque at times.

Well, I think that's cuz Leo has a very strong 'blue meme' orientation (look at my Integral Theory thread).

The TMNT are definately more Budouka then Bushi.

Most of the time, yeah.

But what about bugei?)

I believe a bugeisha just refers to a martial artist, and not so much a particular philosophy.

Sparvid

04-15-2003, 12:52 PM

Well in the new show there are few things that does make them look like heroes. Like trying to save Garbageman. Of course, the whole episode felt kind of out of place to me.How many besides me was hoping that they would simply walk away when he fell into the river?

"Please, please, please... Nooo! Don't jump into the water!" :P

Kali

04-15-2003, 01:10 PM

Well they should have explained the homeless people... It was big deal to Splinter when Aprils saw the turtles, so why are the homeless people any diffrent?
Well, the homeless came after meeting April, as far as I can tell. In the months (yes, Leo said months in TSS- pt1) since the first ep, the Turtles have needed to expand their boundries a bit. The homeless seem the perfect match, as they are also outcasted and it's a mutually helpful situation.

As for the hero thing. I don't think superhero describes the TMNT, but hero does. A hero is someone who you can look up to, admire, and they generally go beyond the duty of an average person, selflessly most often.

Krangfan

04-15-2003, 02:37 PM

I'm not sure if the Turtles are super heroes. Even though the original theme song said "Heroes in a half shell!" I'm not sure that they were heroes in that version (original cartoon). I think the only reason they were fighting Shredder and the gang was because he was fighting them.

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 03:25 PM

They were definetly heroes in the old show, and it seems that they are somewhat heroes in the new show to. Garbageman is a good example. In Mirage the TMNT wouldn't have jumped after him. But It doesn't bother me that much.

heretic888

04-15-2003, 03:29 PM

No, Karpo, I don't think the Mirage tmnt would just have let him died.

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 03:32 PM

Yes they would, no doubt about it. There has never been ocasion where they would have saved their enemies from anything. But many times there has been just the oposite.

heretic888

04-15-2003, 03:39 PM

uhhh.... no, not really. they weren't vindictive murderers or anything. if they killed, it was in self-defense.

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 03:40 PM

Like attacking the foot HQ?

heretic888

04-15-2003, 03:43 PM

exactly.

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 03:46 PM

Right.. Revenge was a motivator to. But fact is, if for result of a battle one of their enemies would have dropped to water, they wouldn't have jumped after him.

Eye of Sarnath

04-15-2003, 03:48 PM

Would you prefer them being 'anti-heroes' so to speak?

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 03:55 PM

Hard to say, if they see someone being mugged, they will most probably interfere. But they don't go on patrolling the streets. In city at war Raph said that they shouldn't interfere with Humans' business. Mostly they fight for self defence, or for Splinter, IE the foot, they are no crime fighters.

Lone Wolf

04-15-2003, 04:03 PM

To me, the Turtles are like the Punisher, not in that they are mass murderers or have a holy crusade, but that they often scribble outside the lines of of the law or altruistic morality, and have their own code that differentiates between good and evil, which they adhere to. They don't go out trying to change the world, but they live by a strict code and pursue their own selfish goals.

To me, this makes them "heroes". Does this put them into the Super Hero category? Not at all. Not even close, really. They don't put others welfare before their own, which most SuperHeroes (with few exceptions) do, and they do not see themselves as the protectors of Justice or Society. Merely having a moral code and living by it doesn't make you a superhero; a man (or turtle) of integrity, yes, but not a Superman (who I'm not a fan of anyway) or Captain America. The turtles are not anti-heros, they merely are not fighting for anyone but themselves and their loved ones.

I am not making a moral judgement, just stating what "superhero" means to the Western culture (just look at movies and comics, it's not that difficult to decipher).

Karpo_007

04-15-2003, 04:06 PM

Yeah, they fight for their family, if that makes them heroes, maybe they are, but they aren't superheroes in any case.

Donatello

04-16-2003, 11:35 AM

They jumped after Garbage man to the water. That iIS heroic, saving even the bad guys. Besides, it was never explained how the TMNT knew some homeless people, and we might never see them again. Thats why it feels kind of out of place compared to other episodes.

OH, the rescue bothered you, i gotcha, yeah that was heroic but hey they can't hav the tmnt kill someone in a kid's show

well they met the homeless cuz the get all their stuff from the dumps, where else would they get it?

Karpo_007

04-16-2003, 11:59 AM

Well I don't know, we don't know what will happen to Shredder yet. Could it be that killing is only limited for "evil" characters like Shredder?

Donatello

04-18-2003, 08:51 PM

maybe, but yoshi died, and i think a man who enslaves the homeless is prettyu damn evil

Karpo_007

04-19-2003, 06:38 AM

Well no one knows what happened to garbage man...

impetus

04-21-2003, 01:23 PM

My vote goes to NOT superheroes. But there are superheroes in the TMNT continuity: Justice Force, Radical, and others.

Tokka-B

04-21-2003, 09:48 PM

I don't know what my vote would be had I voted, but the tmnt I believe are heroes, yet they aren't superheroes, since they don't possess a special power that is difficult to achieve...heck, if people consider firemen to be heroes, then the tmnt are easily heroes... :lol:

Leo656

04-21-2003, 09:55 PM

See I kinda agree with that but then I gotta point out that Batman is a "super-hero" and he doesn't have any "powers" beyond what the Turtles possess. I mean granted he's probably just as skilled a fighter or better than any one of them alone, and he possesses a genius intillect through years of training and scientific study, but Donny could be close behind (depends on the writer) in the intillectual department.

So I'm kinda of the theory that "if the turtles are at all heroes, then they're 'super-heroes' as well." I mean they have definitely acted heroically at times, even if it isn't their "full-time job". I mean someone who pushes a kid out of the way of a parked car is a "hero" in the strictest sense; that doesn't mean that person is gonna go out and fight crime in his spare time.

I think the TMNT CAN be considered "super-heroes", even if it's only in somewhat loose terms.

Tokka-B

04-21-2003, 10:21 PM

Ok, how about super hero with know heroic powers? Batman can mutate and stuff, but can also possess hidden powers yet to see... He has physical abilities that I don't think humans can attain yet

Karpo_007

04-22-2003, 04:12 AM

No, the diffrence is that Batman goes patrolling looking for Criminals. The TMNT fight to protect their family and friends. Or of coursethere is the vengeance thing. Now Casey Jones could be seen as a Super Hero, since his goal Like Batman's is putting criminals out of business.

Leo656

04-22-2003, 05:55 AM

Mileage may vary.

I concur with the argument that the TMNT don't actively patrol for "bad guys" to fight. That much is a given. My argument was with the case that the TMNT aren't super-heroes "because they possess no special powers". Which is why I brought up Batman, who IS a super-hero, yet possesses no special powers.

Your argument, Karpo, makes more sense than the "no powers = no super-hero" argument. That was basically my point.

Karpo_007

04-22-2003, 06:41 AM

Yeah, not all super heroes have powers, Batman being the best example.

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 09:20 AM

Besides changing into bat form of course......

Anyway, no they don't go patrolling for criminals, but most of the criminals have at least SOME sort of tie with shredder, very rarely in cartoons and comics do you have seperate enemies, which is unfortunate...(I'd love to see multiple enemies, it is even rarer when they are enemies with each other...)

Well, technically you could say the turtles have special powers on second thought... When comparing with superheroes we often always compare with the normal human, but what about the normal turtle? That is what you would need to do in this case. Could the normal turtle stand upright and learn the arts of ninjutsu? I think not. Of course you can always counter that argument by saying are they trying to save turtles...but you never know.... :wink:

Karpo_007

04-22-2003, 09:30 AM

Special powers doesn't make a super hero either. But I repeat, Batman has no powers whatsoever, The "bat form" is a suit and utility belt.

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 09:39 AM

No, he could actually turn into a small bat and fly around...

And yes, super powers are need to be considered a "Superhero", if they didn't, they would just be heroes, check the key word super...Anyway, if they don't have super powers, a good substitute would be man at the end of their name...

Karpo_007

04-22-2003, 09:47 AM

No, he could actually turn into a small bat and fly around...

What the hell? :lol:

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 09:49 AM

I could have sworn I have seen him do that... :lol: :lol:

Karpo_007

04-22-2003, 09:50 AM

Sorry, not in that comic/cartoon/movie.

impetus

04-22-2003, 11:57 AM

I'm telling ya - It's not the powers. It's the spandex!!!!

HorseTechie

04-22-2003, 12:09 PM

The X-men more or less confuddle me as well. Many are called mutants, when I consider then to have 'special powers' more than being a mutation. Or a mutation like that of the TMNT. But yet they are not recognized in the same grouping at the X-men... and would be a sin to rank TMNT as being like the X-men... ehhh, yeah...! :goofygri:

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 04:20 PM

Why would it be a sin? :-?

Karpo_007

04-22-2003, 04:21 PM

Beacuse the TMNT are well above mass marketed super hero comic.

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 05:07 PM

::bursts out laughing::

TMNT......isn't.....mass-marketed?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Leo656

04-22-2003, 06:01 PM

As someone who's been reading comic books my entire life, and have bought MANY TPBs reprinting Batman stories dating back to the 1940s, Batman NEVER had super-powers. You MAY be confusing him with another character who appeared in the Batman comic books, Kurt Langstrom the "Man-Bat", a scientist who experimented with DNA from a bat in an attempt to amplify his senses. Suffice to say, it didn't end well, and every now and then he turns into a large bat creature.

Batman has, as Karpo said, NO special powers beyond his genius intellect, his Olympic-level athleticism, and his utility belt. Nor does Robin, his partner. Nor does Nightwing, the adult version of the original Robin. Nor does Green Arrow, whose only "powers" are his unmatchable skill with a bow and arrow. ALL of these characters are called "super-heroes", and NONE of them possess super-powers.

As a lifelong comic fan, my understanding of a "super-hero" is one who appears to be, in fact, somehow "larger than life" (or"super") in the undertaking of heroic deeds. In some cases, as with heroes like Nightwing, all that is necessary to go from "normal hero" to "super-hero" is the addition of a fancy costume, special powers need not apply.

So, again, by that logic, if all that really changes one from "normal hero" to "super-hero" is an axtraordinary appearance, I think the TMNT would definitely qualify. I'm of the opinion that the TMNT are only "super-heroes", or even regular heroes, really, depending on what the person reading or writing them wants to believe. It varies depending on individual p.o.v. But again, if the TMNT act heroically, and they have, then by that rationale they can be seen as heroes, and in turn their "unusual" appearance wuold qualify them for super-heroes as well.

Historical fact: The term "super-hero" doesn't even really mean anything special, it was made up by publishers in the 40s as away to give the heroic characters in their comics a "special and unique" appearance and description. It's a marketing tag, nothing more.

As for the X-Men (which I don't read very much but am, through decades of reading Wizard and other magazines, fairly knowledgeable of nonetheless), I'll try and explain them the best I can. The special powers exhibited by the X-Men are the result of a mutation at the genetic level, thus, indeed, they are mutants. While the TMNT's mutation merely made them appear humanoid and gave them heightened intelligence and speech, someone like Wolverine was born with a genetic mutation that gave him heightened senses, a "healing factor" that regrew damaged tissue, and claws of bone which were exposed through his hands (the adamantium skeleton and claws came later as a result of the shady "Weapon X" program). In fact, it can be argued that, since many of the X-Men were born with their genetic mutation, and the TMNT's mutation was the result of an outside catalyst, the X-Men are, in fact, mutants in a much more "pure" sense of the word.

Hope that helps.

Yes, I know I read a lot of comic books. But it helped me read at a 5th grade level when I was in first grade, so whatever.

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 09:51 PM

You scare me sometimes... :lol:

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-22-2003, 09:57 PM

Leo656

04-22-2003, 09:58 PM

Me too, actually, in addition to having a photographic memory I'm also a pop culture sponge. :lol:

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 10:02 PM

hmmm, we will see about that....

1. What was the first movie with synchronized sound?
2. What was the first cartoon with synchronized sound?

:lol: :lol: :lol: TAKE THAT!

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-22-2003, 10:03 PM

1. Jazz Singer
2.Steamboat Willie

Leo656

04-22-2003, 10:05 PM

I concede defeat in that one. Sadly, I don't know EVERYTHING. Mostly comics, wrestling and movies.

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 10:57 PM

hahaha, YOU HAVE BEEN DEFEATED!!! game over, try next time.. (By the way, that was what really flourished pop culture, that is why I thought you would know that...;P)

Good job tetsu, have a banana. :|

Leo656

04-22-2003, 11:00 PM

But... but I wanted a banana dammit.... :(

Actually once he posted it I remember reading it once but there's just too much useless trivia in my head sometimes, every once in a while stuff gets pushed to the back.

I can hang on Michael J Fox movies though....

Tokka-B

04-22-2003, 11:22 PM

heh, what is your favorite comic series? And is it from marvel, DC, image, etc... or all?

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-22-2003, 11:35 PM

No, he could actually turn into a small bat and fly around...

What the hell? :lol:
I think he might be refering to a "special Batman"

I have a running gag, called "special Superman", featuring an alternate version of Superman that has no powers. He wears a muu-muu(under which he wears nothing), and a sombrero! He is armed with a crowbar (to hit his enemies with), and a plunger (to sexually molest random men and women with). He also claims to be Jane Fonda!
Anyway, Me and all my friends like to pretend that this is the "main Superman", and the treaditional one is the alternate version refered to as "that other Superman". The fun part is when someone not in on the joke starts talking about Superman, we talk about "Special Superman". The look of confusion is priceless!!! Especially, when we say "Oh, you meant That other Superman". :evilgrin:

Sample Conversation:
Victum: Did you see Superman yesterday?
Me: yeah, he was at the grocery store.
Victum: Grocery Strore? How can you see him in person? He's fictitious!!
My Friend #1: No he isn't! I've seen Him dozens of times! Crowbar and All!
My Friend #2: I steer clear of his Plunger though.
Victum: What?!
Me and My Friends: Yeah, Definately!
Me: I wish he'd wear something under that muu-muu.
Victum: What the hell are you talking about?!! I'm talking about the guy in the cape!
Me and my friends: Oooh, You mean that other Superman... OK!

This is followed by an explanation. Then the Victum's cries of "Eew, You guys are SICK!!!", being drowned out by non-stop laughter from Me and my crew.

Anyway, Is that what you're doing Tokka?

Leo656

04-23-2003, 12:09 AM

......

Tetsu... you're nuckin' futz! :lol:

Uh, yeah... well, my favorite comic has always been Superman and anything related, such as Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, etc. I actually have evey Superman comic since they revamped the character in 1986. The quality goes up and down, but I'm a fan and always have been, so I always will be too.

I also was always a big Guy Gardner fan, he was one of the Green lanterns from DC.

Aside from that stuff I get Sonic the Hedgehog from Archie every month, that's another book I actually have every issue of.

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-23-2003, 12:15 AM

I'm a big fan of the Sonic Archie Comic too! I also have every issue!
You know Leo, since you're such a Superman fan, would you like to meet him? If you PM me your address I could give it to him.

Tokka-B

04-23-2003, 12:21 AM

No, that's not what I meant tetsu, I just thought I saw it somewhere....

Anyways, I like X-men...But it is quite a challenge collecting them all...I like comics where there are aliases and teams and such...

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-23-2003, 12:24 AM

No "special Batman"? :cry:

Tokka-B

04-23-2003, 12:26 AM

sorry tetsu, feel free to make one though.... :roll:

Cascadia

04-23-2003, 11:36 PM

The TMNT are heroes in some ways but not in all ways. They will help a lady in distress but they do not normally save the city from evil....except in the old TMNT cartoon.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 01:09 AM

Ok, I just think of them as superheroes, but definately not in the sense of superan, batman, spiderman, etc.... Super hero turtles who are ninjas... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Karpo_007

04-24-2003, 06:38 AM

Well in the old show they are that. Except they aren't really "ninja" in it. And in the new it feels they are more like "Samurai" than ninja if you get what I mean...

heretic888

04-24-2003, 11:15 AM

in some respects they are more 'samurai' (the constant bantering about 'bushido honor') and in others they are more 'ninja' (they like to use stealth and strategy alot)....

Karpo_007

04-24-2003, 11:17 AM

Yeah, the bushido thing is mainly what I was talking about. Well the honor thing has been there from issue #1.

heretic888

04-24-2003, 11:29 AM

well, ninja were quite a bit about 'honor' too..... but, as you can see in the early Mirage books, it was more about protecting the family instead of protecting the family's name.

Karpo_007

04-24-2003, 11:42 AM

At first it was restoring Splinter honour by avenging Yoshi Then protecting the family.

heretic888

04-24-2003, 11:44 AM

yeah, but there's a whole lesson in the tmnt story about the circle of vengeance and all that stuff......

Karpo_007

04-24-2003, 11:46 AM

True.. at the end they called it "Splinter's war". But they also ended the cycle by making peace with Karai.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 12:38 PM

Well, in the old show they were ninjas in the sense that they had weapons that ninjas often fought with (excluding Mike after his nunchucks were taken away.. :( ) They didn't use their weapons as much as they could have but that could be considered a super hero trait, only using the power of the ninja when they absolutely have to...I am seriously, the guys they were fighting were like wannabe street gang garbagemen type people...

heretic888

04-24-2003, 12:44 PM

Ninja rarely, if ever, used weapons similar to the sai or nunchaku.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 12:57 PM

Karpo_007

04-24-2003, 01:04 PM

Well the old show didn't really have any Ninja aspects in it, no stealth etc, but they did actually use their weapons in the first season. I wonder why they completely changed the series after that...

heretic888

04-24-2003, 01:09 PM

Well, the nunchakus weren't a primary weapon but they were used for certain situations a ninja may be in, mostly for defense against a bo and whatnot...but if used correctly they could be a pretty useful offensive weapon too.

Sais were used like daggers.

No, the ninja didn't use those weapons any more than they used automatic rifles.

Now, there were weapons SIMILAR to the nunchaku and sai. Some forms of the manriki-gusari could be fairly similar to the nunchaku Mikey uses and some forms of the jutte could be similar to the sai.... but the ninja did NOT use the sai and nunchaku, per se.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 01:09 PM

Most of the cartoons during it's time didn't have as much violence as cartoons now...But again, when they were in intense battle situations they did use ninja attributes...

heretic888

04-24-2003, 01:10 PM

could someone explain to me exactly what 'ninja attributes' are??

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 01:14 PM

Yes, ninjas DID in fact use nunchakus and sais, you might want to learn a little about ninjas before you say things like that...

Ninja attributes, meaning being like the ninja...I don't think I can stress this any clearer.. :roll:

heretic888

04-24-2003, 01:16 PM

Yes, ninjas DID in fact use nunchakus and sais, you might want to learn a little about ninjas before you say things like that...

I would be interested to hear your sources on this... as I study Bujinkan Ninpo and have written an essay on ninja history (as well as read many). In not one dojo I have ever been in were nunchaku or sai used.

Ninja attributes, meaning being like the ninja...I don't think I can stress this any clearer..

Oh, so you mean like visiting your sick relatives in the hospital, feeding your dog, and being nice to little kids. Because thats a lot more 'ninja' than the notions you have in mind.

By the way, 'ninjas' is not a word. Nor is 'ninjitsu'.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 01:20 PM

http://www.entertheninja.com/ninja_weapons/index.shtml

And if that is what ninja means to you, then so be it.

heretic888

04-24-2003, 01:23 PM

http://www.entertheninja.com/ninja_weapons/index.shtml

That site is not an authoritative source. Unless you can trace any authentic practitioner or authority on the art as citing the ninja actually using nunchaku or sai, then you have no argument.

And if that is what ninja means to you, then so be it.

Not just me, but the grandmaster of the art.

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."

Masaaki Hatsumi, 34th Soke of Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu
[Ninpo: Wisdom for Life, Page 50]

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 01:27 PM

Well, I would if I had access to a dojo or something like that...or if I knew any authorities of ninja, I would get a book that would tell you, but that would cost me money, and I'd rather have the integrity of my own thoughts instead of pay money to prove them...

Well, it says Ninpo began that way, what happened to it after that? And I would consider the old cartoon tmnt to be good and moral which is hard to do to people around you when you are a turtle mind you.

heretic888

04-24-2003, 01:31 PM

Well, I would if I had access to a dojo or something like that...or if I knew any authorities of ninja, I would get a book that would tell you, but that would cost me money, and I'd rather have the integrity of my own thoughts instead of pay money to prove them...

In other words, you have no sources. Thus no argument.

I, on the other hand, do have sources. And I can assure you not one of them would take the notion of the historical ninja using nunchaku or sai seriously. In fact, they would probably get a good laugh out of it. It's pretty funny when people take cheesy 80s movies as authoritative sources.

Well, it says Ninpo began that way, what happened to it after that?

Walk into one of our dojo and find out. The essence of the art has never changed.

And I would consider the old cartoon tmnt to be good and moral which is hard to do to people around you when you are a turtle mind you.

Yes, one of the reasons I like the TMNT mythos is because it is very true to the spirit of the ninja: perserverance.

Still, there is much more to Ninpo than just 'being a good person'. And outward actions can be contradictory to inward intentions. Besides, the Mirage TMNT embody the ninja spirit much better anyways....

The Defibrillator

04-24-2003, 02:15 PM

no offense, but HERETIC, SIMMER DOWN!! ITS A FREAKING TV SHOW!! WHO CARES ABOUT HOW YOU SPELL NINJUTSU!? AND IF "NINJAS" IS CORRECT OR NOT!! IT'S ALL IN THE NAME OF FUN!! APPARANTLY YOU ARE THE ONLY TMNT FAN HERE, WHO CARES THAT MUCH TO NITPICK EVERY SINGLE THING ANYONE SAYS ABOUT "NINJAS"!

*shakes his head in disbelief*

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 03:13 PM

Well, with ninjas you have to be able to use whatever is available, so in any situation you can pick something up and use it as a weapon. Most ninja groups have their own secret weapon. At first you say ninjas rarely, if ever use nunchakus, then you say they never do....so it seems you were unsure at first, then decided to add your opinion so I am starting to doubt whether you even know what your talking about. I think it is close-minded to think that no ninja (no, not talking about 80's movies/cartoon ninjas) has ever used the nunchakus considering it could have been a secret weapon and/or used in a certain situation to which it would be their advantage.

heretic888

04-24-2003, 06:00 PM

no offense, but HERETIC, SIMMER DOWN!! ITS A FREAKING TV SHOW!!

If you look back on my post, I in fact not once ever mentioned the TV show (whether old or new). I was referring to Tokka's ill-informed claims.

WHO CARES ABOUT HOW YOU SPELL NINJUTSU!? AND IF "NINJAS" IS CORRECT OR NOT!!

Those who live and practice the art. Besides, the transliteration 'ninjitsu' actually has a different meaning in Japanese. It literally means 'the fruit of stealth' instead of the 'art of stealth'.

IT'S ALL IN THE NAME OF FUN!!

I have great fun when training but still take the art very seriously.

APPARANTLY YOU ARE THE ONLY TMNT FAN HERE, WHO CARES THAT MUCH TO NITPICK EVERY SINGLE THING ANYONE SAYS ABOUT "NINJAS"!

Or, the only one that has said anything about it. Trust me, you would feel differently if it was a tradition YOU were involved in....

Well, with ninjas you have to be able to use whatever is available, so in any situation you can pick something up and use it as a weapon.

This is quite true. I am not saying modern ninja like the TMNT wouldn't learn to use weapons like the sai and nunchaku as they became available to them, but the simple truth is these weapons were first developed in Okinawa in the seventeenth century. The feudal ninja would have had no access to them.

Most ninja groups have their own secret weapon.

More like weapons.

At first you say ninjas rarely, if ever use nunchakus, then you say they never do....so it seems you were unsure at first, then decided to add your opinion so I am starting to doubt whether you even know what your talking about. I think it is close-minded to think that no ninja (no, not talking about 80's movies/cartoon ninjas) has ever used the nunchakus considering it could have been a secret weapon and/or used in a certain situation to which it would be their advantage.

Sorry, but seeing as how they are Okinawan in origin (and much later than most ninja ryuha) I do not see how the ninja would have had acess to them.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 07:13 PM

Well, ninja completely died out around the mid-1800's, so it wouldn't surprise me if most ninja haven't used the nunchakus, but some had to. It was also similar (in size and shape) to the manriki kusari so they could have learned different tactics with nunchakus. Also, nunchakus might not have been used primarily with taijutsu, but could be used as a form of shuriken.

I know they don't use poison or any of that, but it remains that TMNT do use ninja weapons.

tOkKa

04-24-2003, 07:25 PM

-->> .. weren't most of those weapons based on what farmers used at that time..

.. kind of an item of 'DUAL USE' .. ?? ..i guess.. :-?

tOkKa

04-24-2003, 07:26 PM

-->> ..by the way ,Tokka.. you have an extremly wonderful name!! :D

Leo656

04-24-2003, 08:42 PM

Hi Dave, it's Sean. Good to seeya. :D

The Defibrillator

04-24-2003, 08:48 PM

soo.....I'm confoozed now. which of you is the real Tokka? Are you the same dude with 2 names? I always figgered the rabbit dude was the Tokka from www.terrible2z.com, but I guess not...

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-24-2003, 09:07 PM

Maybe He's a "Special Tokka"! :lol:

Tetsu Deinonychus

04-24-2003, 09:10 PM

Nunchaku and Sai were from Okinawa and therefore would have more to do with Karate then Ninjutsu. And , yes Real Tokka, the Nunchaku were originally to thresh grains and the Sai were to plant seeds.

But keep in mind Heretic the feudal Ninja would have had no access to them but Ninja are suppossed to be able to use ANY weapon and the TMNT live in modern New York.

Tokka-B

04-24-2003, 09:17 PM

Ok, I am just Tokka, ok? Lets not pick names for me such as special tokka and whatnot, I don't know what "real tokka" is supposed to mean anyway.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Ok, I am sure some feudal ninja have used the nunchakus before they became inactive. But if not, theoretically speaking ninja should be able to use the nunchakus just perfectly...

Leo656

04-24-2003, 11:19 PM

I don't know for certain but I *think* it's because Dave's been using the Tokka handle on a lot of other forums for a few years now (including the TMNT Yahoo Group, where I know him from). I could be mistaken, that's just what I *think* it means.

Sparvid

04-25-2003, 08:13 AM

Those who live and practice the art. Besides, the transliteration 'ninjitsu' actually has a different meaning in Japanese. It literally means 'the fruit of stealth' instead of the 'art of stealth'. Like, a mango? ;)

heretic888

04-25-2003, 09:04 AM

Well, ninja completely died out around the mid-1800's, so it wouldn't surprise me if most ninja haven't used the nunchakus, but some had to.

First off, the ninja did not 'completely die out' in the mid-1800s. Secondly, NONE of the ancient ninja would have had access to the nunchaku, thus they could not use them. End of story. Modern-day ninja, however, is another story.....

It was also similar (in size and shape) to the manriki kusari so they could have learned different tactics with nunchakus.

You are already copying something I said earlier on in the thread. Namely, SOME forms of the manriki-gusari were RELATIVELY similar to the nunchakus Mike is seen using in the comic from time to time. That does NOT mean the ninja used nunchaku per se.

Also, nunchakus might not have been used primarily with taijutsu, but could be used as a form of shuriken.

:roll: Ok, Tokka you obviously have no idea what you are talking about....

I know they don't use poison or any of that, but it remains that TMNT do use ninja weapons.

They also use weapons the feudal ninja would have been unfamiliar with, such as the sai and nunchaku and tonfa.

-->> .. weren't most of those weapons based on what farmers used at that time..

.. kind of an item of 'DUAL USE' .. ?? ..i guess..

Actually, the farmers adapted their tools to defend themselves from samurai invaders.

But keep in mind Heretic the feudal Ninja would have had no access to them but Ninja are suppossed to be able to use ANY weapon and the TMNT live in modern New York.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.

Ok, I am sure some feudal ninja have used the nunchakus before they became inactive.

I am sorry, Tokka, but you are wrong. There is no empirical basis (or even a logical basis) for that assertion.

But if not, theoretically speaking ninja should be able to use the nunchakus just perfectly...

Probably. But most 'ninja' I know aren't particularly fond on the 'chuks (the kusari-fundo is about a hundred times more practical, considering 'chuks are illegal to carry in many states).

Like, a mango?

Egg-sack-tolly.

Tokka-B

04-25-2003, 10:21 AM

Ok, I was stating that the manriki kusari had some similarities, I never said that because of this they use nunchakus..just making a statement.

Nunchakus could be used as a form of shuriken, as Mike displays in the old cartoon. The primary use of shuriken such as "ninja stars" as Americans call it, is to distract and/or deter the opponent, on occasions used as a lethal weapon. I have seen Mike use the nunchakus to distract people by throwing them at lamp posts and whatnot, I have no time for more examples...Alternately, and more commonly is using it in taijutsu, or hand-to-hand combat...mainly to disarm someone of their bow or sword if used skillfully.

When I said ninja completely died out, I meant the feudal ninja, most becoming in active during the latter half of the 1700s during the times when Edo was capital and not Tokyo.

Yes, they do use a few weapons 99% of the feudal ninja have not been exposed to.

Nunchakus are illegal in most states, but ninja in other countries could have easy access to them, plus you'd get many "oooh's" and "aaah's" if you actually brought some to a dojo.

heretic888

04-25-2003, 10:34 AM

Ok, I was stating that the manriki kusari had some similarities, I never said that because of this they use nunchakus..just making a statement.

If you say so.

Nunchakus could be used as a form of shuriken, as Mike displays in the old cartoon.

Shurikenjutsu is the art of throwing small blades, not big wooden sticks attached by a cord. Besides, this may suprise you, but nunchakus cannot actually be used that way very effectively.

The primary use of shuriken such as "ninja stars" as Americans call it, is to distract and/or deter the opponent, on occasions used as a lethal weapon.

Shuriken were never used to kill. It's not part of their design.

I have seen Mike use the nunchakus to distract people by throwing them at lamp posts and whatnot, I have no time for more examples...

Usually unrealistic and stupid scenarios. Still, I suppose its possible...

Alternately, and more commonly is using it in taijutsu, or hand-to-hand combat...mainly to disarm someone of their bow or sword if used skillfully.

Taijutsu is unarmed combat.

When I said ninja completely died out, I meant the feudal ninja, most becoming in active during the latter half of the 1700s during the times when Edo was capital and not Tokyo.

No ****, of course feudal ninja died out when Japan stopped being feudal!! :roll: That's like saying colonial Americans 'died out' when America entered the industrial age.

Nunchakus are illegal in most states, but ninja in other countries could have easy access to them, plus you'd get many "oooh's" and "aaah's" if you actually brought some to a dojo.

Actually, it wouldn't impress most martial artists. Anyone can carry a weapon.

Tokka-B

04-25-2003, 11:48 AM

But most would attract much curiosity to see how they would use it, since it is a rare weapon to find at the dojo...

Lets lighten the language a little, I was just making sure you understood that feudal ninja have died out...

Taijutsu could mean "close-combat"

stupid scenarios? I thought they were funny, each to their own..

Shuriken have been used to kill in certain situations. They are designed to distract though. In instances when ninja are chased down by a samurai and depending on the situation they would throw it back at him knowing what he is up against, thus stopping the chase. They have also been dipped in poison, but that is extremely rare, as the ninja would fondle in his pocket for it and accidentally kill himself.

Michelangelo obviously can use nunchakus like that effectively.