What did you think of Leo/Radical and Casey/Karai being pushed?

[CyberCubed]

Aside from Casey/April, there has never been much in the way of romance or love interest plotlines in TMNT comics. It just never really happened.

Yet in one issue of Tales, we see future/old Leo and Radical are in love. I hate Turtle/human relationships, so its a shame to see something like that in canon. Also the fact that Radical of all characters falls for Leo, feels absurd, given they barely had any noticeable interaction before. I find it disgusting. Oh well, at least Complete Carnage broke her neck and killed her! Haha!

And then recently in Volume 4, there is indication Karai may have slept with Casey while he was drunk. Don't know if this is what PL intended, but given how long it takes for Vol. 4 to come out we may not know the true answer for awhile.

What is the point of this? TMNT has never been a soap opera before. On PL's blog, Peter Laird commented how the Spock and Uhura romance added nothing to the story and was pointless, yet this feels the same.

[DrSpengler]

"Swan Song" is the absolute low point of TMNT fiction, at least in regards to Mirage canon. Everything about that story is dispicable. The relationship between Leo and Radical is absurdly forced. They hardly ever interacted in issues prior and not even a shred of romantic tension was ever exhibited in any of those stories.

Its as if the writer of "Swan Song" basically began with, "I want Leo to f*** a human. What female humans do they know besides April? Just Radical? Okay, there we go".

And the art is some of THE MOST amateurish stuff I've ever seen in print. The story was as embarassing to look at as it was to read.

I absolutely despise "Swan Song". It reads like the worst kind of fangirl-penned random shipping fiction. I cannot believe Mirage even entertained the story pitch, let alone went through with publishing it.

It is my vote for the worst Mirage Turtles story ever written. Yes, even worse than the issue where April f***s a cockroach and finds out that she's a magic doodle brought to life.



As for Casey/Karai? Its vague, but possible. At that point in the narrative, April had ditched Casey to "find herself" and anything could have happened when someone's feeling that down. Likely just one more issue they'll have to work through once they reunite.

[Cipher]

Am I the only one who really digs "Swan Song"? Do people just get hung up on Leo/Radical and quit reading the issue?

Leo and Radical is wierd and forced, but it's the focus of the story for ... what, three pages? After that it's a vengeance story. There was nothing particularly distasteful about Leo and Radical either. It's a post-alien Earth. Wierd, and probably not something I'd have written, but you get over it.

But seriously, the strangeness of Leo/Radical is the only thing I can fault the issue for. Leo's conflict over revenge is perfectly in line with the character that's been developing since "City at War." I can easily believe this is a Leo who has been through the moral conundrums of Volume 2, "Blind Faith," and "Scars." Adds a nice twist on what is otherwise a standard but competent vengeance story.

And the art? God forbid someone actually use black-and-white contrast to some effect. And Complete Carnage has never looked more menacing. There's been better, but there's been much worse.

It is my vote for the worst Mirage Turtles story ever written.You've read the entire Mirage catalogue and this was your pick for worst? Seriously? Regardless of how much you hate the issue, they've published some serious sh*t over the last 25 years.

Yes, even worse than the issue where April f***s a cockroach and finds out that she's a magic doodle brought to life.See, now I know you're just getting hung up on plot points rather than actually judging the issues.

I'm still not big on the whole "April is a drawing" thing. But that issue itself is wonderful. Lawson's art fits the tone, it handles the most surreal turn of events ever in a slow-burn, down-to-earth way, etc. It's as disturbing as it tries to be. Hate the revelation, not the way it was revealed. #22 is the best issue of Volume 4.

[Powder]

I feel that theres no harm in the turtles finding love, even if it is with humans because lord knows who else they may find. Anyhow radical is a poor choice. As for karai, I can see it. Them ninja broads are feisty! I'm somewhat indifferent to it all though really... its not my story to write. I may not agree with everything that happens but with these comics pete plays god & if thats what god wants, thats what he'll do.

[Oculus Orbus]

Let's not forget about Mikey, he might have kids! I'm sure he's not the father, but still, he had something with Seri. That was kind of... odd, at least.

[ToTheNines]

Hate the revelation, not the way it was revealed. #22 is the best issue of Volume 4.

Agreed, but still.... WHY IN THE FU*K DID THEY HAVE HER FU*K OTHER ROACHES?

:-?

[Cipher]

Agreed, but still.... WHY IN THE FU*K DID THEY HAVE HER FU*K OTHER ROACHES?To drive home the surrealness and horror of what they saw. It was just to express the fact that months passed, to the point where they fell into regular roach routine.

Honestly, that's probably one of the least disturbing parts of the story.

[ToTheNines]

Not for me lol I think I'm gonna mark that part out with a sharpie.

[CyberCubed]

You've read the entire Mirage catalogue and this was your pick for worst? Seriously? Regardless of how much you hate the issue, they've published some serious sh*t over the last 25 years.

Hm, I can think of a number of specials that were bad, "Times Pipeline," "The Maltease Turtle," a few Vol. 1 guest issues like the "Spaced Out" trilogy, but what are you referring to?

[PAAATE]

Agreed, but still.... WHY IN THE FU*K DID THEY HAVE HER FU*K OTHER ROACHES?

:-?

C'mon, we've all done it once or twice... :ohwell:

[Cipher]

Hm, I can think of a number of specials that were bad, "Times Pipeline," "The Maltease Turtle," a few Vol. 1 guest issues like the "Spaced Out" trilogy, but what are you referring to?Hey, hey, don't hate on Hedden and McWeeney.

Going back through the catalogue, I guess there's actually not a whole lot I hate. It's just that there are a handful of issues I know I'm comfortable reading once and then never ever going back to. Usually for them being wholly uninteresting or, important plot points aside, being really badly written ("Mined Games", anyone?). A servicable "old Leo gets revenge on Complete Carnage" story just can't fall anywhere near the bottom of the pile for me.

[Vivi]

It is my vote for the worst Mirage Turtles story ever written. Yes, even worse than the issue where April f***s a cockroach and finds out that she's a magic doodle brought to life.


Thanks for that, I needed a laugh. I agree that this seems like a very contrived plot point for the sake of shipping a turtle, the fact that it was blindsided on us and did not hold much weight makes it a strange choice for an issue. But I do like the artwork, it reminds me of lino block print. Very cool.
I guess I can 'ignore' this canon in my mind, as I often employ the hear/see/speak no evil so that my own twisted version of the truth keeps me happy.
One thing I do not like is the possibility of the Casey/Karai hookup...no, just...no. Steak knife in the heart (of April). But maybe it's just an eye for an eye thing, after all she did do that cockroach that one time...

[discordiatookie]

I personally think that nothing happened 'tween Casey and Karai. He was trashed and ended up back at hers, slept it off and couldn't remember if anything had happened. Karai is just keeping quiet, perhaps for some leverage or something in the future. That's my view, anyway...

As for the Leo and Radical thing - doesn't really bother me. It was an okay issue, had some cool moments in it, and I personally really like the artwork.

[Andrew NDB]

Am I the only one who really digs "Swan Song"? Do people just get hung up on Leo/Radical and quit reading the issue?

Leo and Radical is wierd and forced, but it's the focus of the story for ... what, three pages? After that it's a vengeance story. There was nothing particularly distasteful about Leo and Radical either. It's a post-alien Earth. Wierd, and probably not something I'd have written, but you get over it.

I loathe that they "went there" with the human-Turtle pairing but I accepted it and moved on with the issue.

And I'm glad, because the issue itself was pretty cool. I dig the art style there, too.

[Ninjinister]

I loathe that they "went there" with the human-Turtle pairing but I accepted it and moved on with the issue.

And I'm glad, because the issue itself was pretty cool. I dig the art style there, too.

Completely agreed.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I didn't think Leo and Radical coupling was forced, or weird, or anything like that, actually. It caught me off guard, because I always thought that was the kind of thing for fan-fiction.

Now, Casey and Karai? THAT felt forced and weird.

[Andrew NDB]

I do guarantee you this issue was during that period of time that Laird wasn't personally signing off on scripts.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I do guarantee you this issue was during that period of time that Laird wasn't personally signing off on scripts.

Do you care enough to try and get that verified?

[jaymq]

Maybe I read through it too fast, but I never got the impression Karai and Casey boinked. And I feel it'd be horribly OOC anyway.

I don't have anything against the Radial/Leo thing though, but I'm not a big Lawson fan anyway. So I only skimmed through it at best, I liked the end though.

[ToTheNines]

I don't have anything against the Radial/Leo thing though, but I'm not a big Lawson fan anyway. So I only skimmed through it at best, I liked the end though.

Wasn't Lawson, 'twas Dumais.

[CyberCubed]

I do guarantee you this issue was during that period of time that Laird wasn't personally signing off on scripts.

I was pretty sure PL said before that "human/turtle relationships" were not allowed in his "TMNT laws."

Still he had to know it was in there as the issue was being completed.

[plastroncafe]

I was pretty sure PL said before that "human/turtle relationships" were not allowed in his "TMNT laws."

Still he had to know it was in there as the issue was being completed.

Guess that kind of puts Lucindra, and the chick from Dooney's Election issue on notice too, huh?

[Cipher]

Do you care enough to try and get that verified?Well, there's the fact that he's said multiple times no human/Turtle nasty was a hard and fast rule. That, and Complete Carnage actually got to be in an issue for once.

[jaymq]

Wasn't Lawson, 'twas Dumais.

Ah, Damn. I read Lawson's name somewhere along the thread. Misread. My bad. Probably why the issue didn't bug me so much.

[Spitfire]

It's funny Murph wrote "Swan Song" and it was one of the last turtles stories he wrote. He co-wrote "The Amulet" and after that he just did two Cowboys of Moo Mesa crossovers. He went from writing several issues in a row to almost nothing at all. I wonder if the huge fan back lash had anything to do with that. It was either that or he wanted to piss us off because he was all burnt out on turtles and being emo about it.

Anyways I thought "Swan Song" was pretty lame. The art was okay but like others said the romance wasn't there and it just appeared to be totally random. I was also annoyed by how fast Complete Carnage killed Radical. Casey and Karai I can accept though even that seems kinda random. Karai bringing random men home to sleep with, especially men that were previously considered an enemy. I assume there's some other motive behind this happening. I'll have to see where it goes before I judge it. At least Casey was drunk and Karai is a human. I don't know what's up with Leo and Radical.

[Candy Kappa]

maybe Murphy felt Mikey was not the only one to get nookie:trolleye:

the story didn't really catch my attention (guess turtle\human relationship no longer affect me after all my time on dA), except for being the story showing us when Leo voe never to kill again.

[ToTheNines]

It was either that or he wanted to piss us off because he was all burnt out on turtles and being emo about it.

While that kinda does make sense... I don't think so. While Murphy is a very versatile writer, I find him to be very "hit or miss". I think this was just more of a miss.

[Coola Yagami]

Doesn't bother me other than the fact that Radical was totally random. Like mentioned they never really had any romantic tension between them. It would be like hooking up Raph with that woman that set Hun free.

But of course, I dunno, it might sound sick, but hey the Turtles are human-like. If we are to believe them as realistic characters in the rheir stories, they have to show a certain desire once in a while. Even Mikey got some nookie. I figured the turtles were turned human-like and were around humans more often than any other species throughout their lives that it would make them sense for them to show desire for a human female rather than some weird-ass alien creature that wasn't at least turtle-like or reptilian in nature.

[CyberCubed]

So does anyone think that Karai really slept with Casey? The way her dialogue went it made it seem that way, but who really knows. I'm still wondering why PL is giving us clues that something is wrong with Karai, yet we're waiting forever to find out what it is.

[discordiatookie]

So does anyone think that Karai really slept with Casey? The way her dialogue went it made it seem that way, but who really knows. I'm still wondering why PL is giving us clues that something is wrong with Karai, yet we're waiting forever to find out what it is.

Well, Casey was pretty wasted, i'd imagine that Karai came into the room all geared up, only to find him totally crashed out, snoring his head off.

[odupianist]

What would be the point for Karai to sleep with Casey other than blackmail though?

[Andrew NDB]

What would be the point for Karai to sleep with Casey other than blackmail though?

Just to take a ride on his disco stick? Or his hockey stick?

[Candy Kappa]

Just to take a ride on his disco stick? Or his hockey stick?

playing golf with his woods?:tlol:

[Coola Yagami]

What would be the point for Karai to sleep with Casey other than blackmail though?

Pleasing her own desires taking advantage of such a rare opportunity? We know little of her life other than the fact that she runs the Foot. We know she's not a virgin cause she had a daughter. I dunno, maybe she hasn't had any for a few years?

[PAAATE]

Maybe Casey is horsecocked. Someone should ask Eastman or Laird :P

[Candy Kappa]

after swan song I got more curious how Leo and radical got together, and why those two.

[Cipher]

after swan song I got more curious how Leo and radical got together, and why those two.I'm not sure there was any major rationale behind it other than them both playing the honorable warrior archetype. And it set up a convenient vengeance story.

Also, I read "Swan Song" again the other day. Seriously, I don't get why it's such a hated issue. How can people splooge all over future Raph at the end of "A Day in the Life" but completely ignore awesome moments like Leo and Radical reflecting at the neon buffalo and farm house?

Also, also, I remain deeply unconvinced that Casey and Karai did the deed. It's too obvious. And say what you will about Volume 4, but it's been anything but obvious with its plot.

[Dragon Turtle]

We know she's not a virgin cause she had a daughter. I dunno, maybe she hasn't had any for a few years?


While not official, given the her "daughter's" age, it may be speculated she was adopted.

[Andrew NDB]

While not official, given the her "daughter's" age, it may be speculated she was adopted.

What, like 20? It's possible. But Karai had to be fairly older in years (I'm thinking mid 40s) in "City at War" to have the chutzpah enough to become leader of not just one branch, or two, but the entire Foot Clan.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Maybe Casey is horsecocked. Someone should ask Eastman or Laird :P

Well, Casey is Eastman's dopple-ganger, so he'd be the one to ask... :tlol:

[ToTheNines]

Me and Kevin are facebook friends, I'm sure he wouldn't mind me asking to measure his weiner lol

[Coola Yagami]

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Dragon Turtle]

What, like 20? It's possible. But Karai had to be fairly older in years (I'm thinking mid 40s) in "City at War" to have the chutzpah enough to become leader of not just one branch, or two, but the entire Foot Clan.

Karai certainly doesn't look like she's pushing 60 in vol. 4, unless the Foot have access to Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pit. Possessing more skill or ruthlessness then the other branch foot leaders is what probably got her the position of leader, Shredder himself was only eighteen when he took over the NY Branch.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Shredder himself was only eighteen when he took over the NY Branch.

Yeah, but all he took over was the NY branch. Not the entire clan.

[Dragon Turtle]

Yeah, but all he took over was the NY branch. Not the entire clan.

Still at eighteen, taking over a major branch is still a big deal, taking over the entire Foot clan by the age of thirty isn't that unrealistic.

Also take into account the actual size and depth of the Foot clan was never something that was ever fully explored, taking over the "entire" clan may not be that monumental of a task.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Still at eighteen, taking over a major branch is still a big deal, taking over the entire Foot clan by the age of thirty isn't that unrealistic.

Also take into account the actual size and depth of the Foot clan was never something that was ever fully explored, taking over the "entire" clan may not be that monumental of a task.

Seems like the Foot had really branched out by the time Karai came along from what it was in Saki's time.

You also have to take into consideration that she is a woman. Seems to me that she would have had to doubly prove herself in order to be trusted with all that responsibility.

[Candy Kappa]

and karai are still alive in the future raph issue... maybe she have skinny dipped in the Lazarus pit

[CyberCubed]

You also have to take into consideration that she is a woman. Seems to me that she would have had to doubly prove herself in order to be trusted with all that responsibility.

It's a comic book world. Sexy female leaders are the norm in comics.

[Andrew NDB]

and karai are still alive in the future raph issue... maybe she have skinny dipped in the Lazarus pit

Or she could be a worm clone of herself. Who knows, it's the Foot.

[Coola Yagami]

Or she could be a worm clone of herself. Who knows, it's the Foot.

Damn... that's a story in itself... Karai's demise and some loyal followers wanting to worm clone her, but something went wrong and she became the bitter hateful hag from the Raph story.

[odupianist]

she became the bitter hateful hag from the Raph story.

Maybe I just read it differently, but I saw her more as lonely and washed up moreso than bitter and hateful. That's just me though.

[Coola Yagami]

Ah, I didn't actually read the issue, that's just the impression I got from the synopsis and what I heard Raph's reaction to all this was.

[Candy Kappa]

Maybe I just read it differently, but I saw her more as lonely and washed up moreso than bitter and hateful. That's just me though.

I got that impression as well

[DrSpengler]

Yeah, she even said that the reason she kidnapped the kid and put Raph through all that was because she missed the "old times".

Which was kind of odd, because in the "old times", Karai and the Turtles almost always got along or were indifferent about each other's behavior.

Maybe she was just senile.

[CyberCubed]

I feel like that whole issue was done just to toy with the fanbase on purpose.

It kinda proves though that the Foot Clan never gets wiped out, unlike what Volume 4 has us believe with the Foot being killed off and Karai telling Leo they have barely any Foot members left.

[Venom]

Or she could be a worm clone of herself. Who knows, it's the Foot.

I thought that very same thing.

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, she even said that the reason she kidnapped the kid and put Raph through all that was because she missed the "old times".

Which was kind of odd, because in the "old times", Karai and the Turtles almost always got along or were indifferent about each other's behavior.

Maybe she was just senile.

Something just hit me. Peter says volume 4 ignores the events of volume 3, but Karai's behavior in it (and Silent Night) practically makes Image canon all on its own!

While we don't know the identity of Lady Shredder, we can all assume (and will soon find out if) that's Karai. So all the times she calls the turtles former/old enemies in volume 4 pretty much has to point back the Image series, seeing as how they only had one quick fight in "City at War" before teaming up.

[discordiatookie]

Yeah, i'm reading through vol 4 myself at the moment, and when Karai is standing over the turtles and talking to Shadow (during April's operation) some of what she said kinda irked me.

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, i'm reading through vol 4 myself at the moment, and when Karai is standing over the turtles and talking to Shadow (during April's operation) some of what she said kinda irked me.

Exactly, and you can't even blame it on Peter getting the comics confused with the cartoon... that issue was looong before Karai's first episode.

[CyberCubed]

Someone in the letters also made the connection of Michelangelo falling out of the helicopter in Vol. 4 #2, and Don falling out of the helicopter in Image #1.

Of course later on, Don practically becomes a cyborg in Vol. 4 as well and Raph transforms.

[Coola Yagami]

Hold on... what did Karai say to Shadow?

[CyberCubed]

Hold on... what did Karai say to Shadow?

She tried to seduce her into joining the Foot Clan.

[ToTheNines]

Hold on... what did Karai say to Shadow?

I'll go get a direct quote later, but basically she was like "It is odd seeing my old enemies in such a vulnerable state, but it would not be honorable to take advantage of this oppurtunity" and some other stuff.

[pm5kfan212]

im still reading through vol 1...but when does april f*** a cockroach and why the hell did it happen at all?

[DrSpengler]

im still reading through vol 1...but when does april f*** a cockroach and why the hell did it happen at all?

You won't get to that until Volume 4.

And it happened because Laird couldn't think of anything interesting for April to do so meh, why not have her **** a cockroach.

[CyberCubed]

im still reading through vol 1...but when does april f*** a cockroach and why the hell did it happen at all?

LOL, just imagine it happening while she was in human form.

[Cipher]

It's not nearly as bad as people are making it sound. When you read the issue, it's not really in poor taste at all. #22 is awesome.

[Venom]

why the hell did it happen at all?

Well it *is* called a cockroach.:P