Who was right Leo or Raph (City at War)

[k_lala]

I'm re-watching City at War. As you know, at the time the Shredder was defeated causing the different gang factions...The Foot, The Purple Dragons, and the Mafia to fight over control of the city.

Leo's thinking is that after defeating the Shredder, it made things worst. It's caused more violence.

Raph's thinking is, its not our fight!

Leo think they should do something about it, Raph argues otherwise.

What are your thoughts on who was wrong or who was right?

[Spitfire]

They were both wrong about certain things. They made it their job to protect their city, their home, so by not stopping the war they weren't being the protectors they appointed themselves. However getting involved, at the level Leo was, only caused more violence and resulted in them almost getting killed several times. Had they gone in with a better plan they could have stopped it from behind the scenes. And not had a fight in the middle of the street with a giant robot where half the city could see them.

[ToTheNines]

Raph Raph Raph Raph Raph Raph!

I hated Leo those few episodes. Not only was he stupid to think all that was their fault, he didn't let one side win over the other.

If things were supposedley "better" before they whacked Shredder (with the Foot still in control of the underworld) why would Leo interfere by saving the lives of the mobsters? Why not just let the Foot win out? Why fight the foot if they're not even coming after you?

[k_lala]

I would have let all the bad guys kill each other and then pick up the pieces and finish off them.

Although when they were already IN the fight, Raph made some bone head decisions I didn't agree with. Leo made a bone head decision in trying to stop the bomb and trying to take on the whole foot by himself.

So at first I agreed with Raph, but while they were in it, I agreed with Leo...in the end it all worked out for them anyways.

[Icebot]

I think Leo should have listened to Splinter. He said the best thing to do is nothing. That was the beginning. At the end, Splinter convinced Raph he was being an idiot, and said Leo was right to follow his heart, even if others tell him not to. I guess Splinter's opinion changed once he heard everything that was going on.

I think Raph was right at the beginning and once Karai arrived in New York, I started to agree with Leo.

[ToTheNines]

Good points guys. Once Karai came into the picture and actually laid out a clear plan, then Leo was in the right and Raph was being very hard headed by not sticking around and helping out. But still, before all that... ugh.

[Leonardo Mystic]

Leo is very conscientious and tends to be compassionate towards the people who he upholds in protecting the city. The fact innocent people were getting caught in the crossfire of a gang war they inadvertly caused, to which he personally felt responsible for, weighed heavily on his heart. He wanted to fix things, make everything he did wrong right again, and that's why he wanted to get involved.

Raph, on the other hand, wasn't concerned about the war. It was of no consequence to him and he felt wasn't his business to get involved with. He figured the cops could handle it and the gangs would just take each other out. It didn't seem to bother him either that innocents were getting hurt and was quick to point out they did the city a favor by killing the Shredder. He called Leo crazy for even feeling any kind of guilt whatsoever.

I sided with Leo on the issue, but he was not without fault either. He acted somewhat implusively. He didn't have a well defined plan and he was kind of running blind for a while there. He really had no idea what to do. It was Karai who finally gave him insight.

Raph continued to be stubborn throughout, even when they had a real plan. Karai only became another huge thorn in his side and it made him resist that much harder. He stormed off when he'd had enough at Leo's insistence to join her, but I liked how at the end he unexpectedly came back after having a change of heart and he, and Splinter, was the "wild card" in their fight.

So neither were "wrong", but neither were "right" either. They both have very different ideals, but I also have heard they are two sides of the same coin. Just that Leo is the more disciplined and self-controlled of the two.

[triplexxx]

Raphael was right in terms how what are on different groups of villains' agendas, like a turf war, doesn't put the turtles at fault and that participating might just make it worse; Leonardo was right in terms of believing it was wrong to let innocent people get caught in the crossfire.

[k_lala]

I think they should have let the bad guys fight each other out. They are doing the turtles a favor..why jump in and fight when they are doing it for you?

Also I could see Raph's POV a little bit when Karai came in. How can you trust the foot? I mean remember when The Shredder made that same offer to Leo before? He did take it, Raph thought he was stupid! So i can see why Raph was like ok fool me once you wont fool me again!

But then again at that time could you blame him for putting trust into the foot? We all know how it all came out in the end but AT THAT TIME? You never know right? I did though think Raph was a stubborn hot head, I didn't like his attitude after the beginning.

[BubblyShell22]

I think both were wrong in some ways. While Leo's intentions were good, he acted impulsively and should've gone in with a clearer head. Raph was wrong in blowing it off with no concern for others. Yes, it really wasn't their fight, but Leo was mostly thinking of the innocents. Splinter more than likely meditated on the subject after Leo stormed off and came to this conclusion. So, he talked with Raph, and the two went to help. I'll be covering a bit of this in my story "Letters To Yoshi."

[Bauer536]

I just skimmed all of the comic book issues of City at War. This sounds like fun to read. In fact, it felt like an episode of 24, which is great! Now to the subject: I know how you feel about each character. I felt Leo was wrong in a way to get involved at first, but Raph was wrong to say that it was not their fight. Leo should have listened to Splinter at first, and Raph should have not walked out from the fight. Which goes to say: they were both wrong and were being stupid. What I saw from the 2k3 series was nothing like the comic book issues. Roles were switched. Instead of Raph being the one who wants to fight, the writers gave it to Leo. That’s my problem with the writers. Sometimes I wonder that they never cared for Leonardo whatsoever, that it made things become the Raphael Show. 4Kids tried, but after what I read from the comic summaries, they didn’t make it completely accurate to the City at War. I wouldn’t mind it being a part one through three episode, but they should have stuck with Leo not wanting to fight and give him more clout.

[k_lala]

I just skimmed all of the comic book issues of City at War. This sounds like fun to read. In fact, it felt like an episode of 24, which is great! Now to the subject: I know how you feel about each character. I felt Leo was wrong in a way to get involved at first, but Raph was wrong to say that it was not their fight. Leo should have listened to Splinter at first, and Raph should have not walked out from the fight. Which goes to say: they were both wrong and were being stupid. What I saw from the 2k3 series was nothing like the comic book issues. Roles were switched. Instead of Raph being the one who wants to fight, the writers gave it to Leo. That’s my problem with the writers. Sometimes I wonder that they never cared for Leonardo whatsoever, that it made things become the Raphael Show. 4Kids tried, but after what I read from the comic summaries, they didn’t make it completely accurate to the City at War. I wouldn’t mind it being a part one through three episode, but they should have stuck with Leo not wanting to fight and give him more clout.

Hmm that's good to know, it makes more sense that Raph be the one who wanted to go out and fight. Raph is usually the one that makes all the bone head decisions.

Do you mean 4Kids wanted it to be a Raph show or the comics wanted it to be a Raph show? I don't know if any character got the one up on any, i thought it was well balanced. Not like the 90s X-Men series, where it was a Wolverine show.

[ABrown]

Whenever I watch the second season, I'm always reminded of when I first watched the second season. I spent the whole season trying to figure out how the creators were trying to make all of the pieces of the puzzle fit regarding the Shredder being an utrom.

Speaking specifically about the City At War story, I was trying to figure out why the Shredder would've limited himself to just one city if he was the world conquering alien that we were supposed to believe he was. It's like the Shredder controlled New York's underworld, so I understand what was going on. But I can't help but think that if the writers truly intended for the Shredder to be a world conquering utrom, why wouldn't the Shredder have had bases all throughout the world? The whole Leo/Raph thing just seemed so insignificant to me.

[k_lala]

Whenever I watch the second season, I'm always reminded of when I first watched the second season. I spent the whole season trying to figure out how the creators were trying to make all of the pieces of the puzzle fit regarding the Shredder being an utrom.

Speaking specifically about the City At War story, I was trying to figure out why the Shredder would've limited himself to just one city if he was the world conquering alien that we were supposed to believe he was. It's like the Shredder controlled New York's underworld, so I understand what was going on. But I can't help but think that if the writers truly intended for the Shredder to be a world conquering utrom, why wouldn't the Shredder have had bases all throughout the world? The whole Leo/Raph thing just seemed so insignificant to me.

I'm doing the exact same thing as i am rewatching this right now. I know there were a lot of complaints with Splinter who i guess knew from the beginning he was an utrom and seeing if there are holes here. I'm trying to see if there is a lame excuse to let Splinter off the hook.

Well so far I can only say this...my thinking is Splinter knew he was an utrom but didn't feel the need to tell the Turtles about this. I mean he didn't tell them about a lot of things. Like that the Utroms even existed or even about the Battle Nexus.

Also when Leo cut his head off, Splinter wasn't there. This however doesn't really explain why the Utroms thought he was defeated. Defeated yes but not for good.

Ok now onto Secret Origins. I suppose Splinter knew about The Utrom Shredder but didn't know the full story behind it just bits and parts. That's why when they went into those pods, i guess that was his first time seeing the full history of the Utroms and from there everything made sense to him. (Ok i'm not totally defending it 4Kids made it right, I'm just trying to see if it makes partial sense).

So lets just assume he knew the whole story of the Original Shredder but only knew just a little bit of the Utroms. Meaning he didn't know how they got to earth, he just knew they existed and somehow an Evil Utrom took over the mantle of the Shredder? Make sense? I could see how this be an angle that could work for all the pot holes???

Also we can assume off camera during this City at War saga, Karai came to New York and found the remains of Chre'll and then carried out here plan to the Turtles.

[XERO]

Who shot first...

Han(Raph) or Greedo(Leo)?

[Bauer536]

I seriously think that 4Kids did not put that much effort into this storyline. And you’re right. If Shredder was going to be a Utrom, why didn’t he have other of his locations all over the world? Somehow I feel that this was the beginning of Peter Laird’s inconsistency.
Now back to what I said about the Raphael show: I meant for this series, not the comics. Plus, I like the 90’s X-Men series. I did think it focused on Wolverine too much, but I still got a kick out of it. Funny thing is, my favorite turtle is Leonardo, but my favorite X-Man is Wolverine. Maybe it’s because they took some form of Japanese martial arts. Same reason why I like Batman a lot, too.:tcool:

Also - that’s not funny, XERO.:tgrumble: You make it look like that Raph is the winner. None of the two were thinking.

[XERO]

So, Han shot first? Well, damn. :P

[Krys]

Also - that’s not funny, XERO.:tgrumble: You make it look like that Raph is the winner. None of the two were thinking.

I thought it was kinda funny :lol:

[Xav]

Also when Leo cut his head off, Splinter wasn't there. This however doesn't really explain why the Utroms thought he was defeated. Defeated yes but not for good. It wasn't the Utrom who thought that it was the guardians.

I seriously think that 4Kids did not put that much effort into this storyline. And you’re right. If Shredder was going to be a Utrom, why didn’t he have other of his locations all over the world? Somehow I feel that this was the beginning of Peter Laird’s inconsistency. Now back to what I said about the Raphael show: I meant for this series But he did have a base in japan lead by Karai. Also how can you say this was the Raphael show? It seemed more like the Leonardo show. He was the one who first meet Shredder, he was the one who got beat up in Shredder Strikes Back, he was the one who defeated Shredder in RTNY, he was the one in love with Karai, he was the one poisoned in Big Brawl, he was the one pissed off in season 4, he was the one who went off to train with The Ancient One and came back and saved the other Turtles when Karai became Shredder, he was the one who didn't get a new weapon in season 5.

[k_lala]

It wasn't the Utrom who thought that it was the guardians.


Thats what i meant, Utrom/Gaurdians.

[ABrown]

I seriously think that 4Kids did not put that much effort into this storyline. And you’re right. If Shredder was going to be a Utrom, why didn’t he have other of his locations all over the world?

You hit the nail right on the head. It just didn't make any sense. It's little stuff like this that really makes me, and has always made me, think that the Shredder being an utrom wasn't planned from the start. He didn't come off as an intergalactic world conquer. He came off as a Japanese crime lord. And City At War only added fuel to the fire.

[Xav]

Shredder as an Utrom was planned from the start Peter Laird himself said so.

[ToTheNines]

Shredder wasn't conquering Earth becuase he didn't give a sh*t about the "backwater planet". He had bigger fish to fry on the Utrom homeworld and Tenela-5.

[FearlessLeader]

You hit the nail right on the head. It just didn't make any sense. It's little stuff like this that really makes me, and has always made me, think that the Shredder being an utrom wasn't planned from the start. He didn't come off as an intergalactic world conquer. He came off as a Japanese crime lord. And City At War only added fuel to the fire.

I always felt like 4Kids wanted to do City at War but just wasn't certain how to do City at War.

They took the longest arc in Turtles comics and turned into into one of the shortest continuing arcs in the TV series. Had they done 5 or 6 episodes to this storyline and added a lot more to it I think it could have been great. And it disappoints me because they could have easily done separate story lines with April, Casey and Splinter that showed character growth for them without having to go into the same story line as the comics (as I know a lot of them wouldn't have worked in a kids cartoon)

Everything was also just way to rushed. What should have felt like at least a week worth of time all seemed to happen in one night.

I love 2k3 but in the original 5 seasons I feel like City at War was one of there poorest showings of really converting comic to screen, only topped by the Sons of the Silent Age episode.

As for who was right or wrong I feel everyone here pretty much expressed clearly that both Raphael and Leonardo had valid points to their arguments and they both had missteps.

Though I always liked the way the Turtles helping the Foot was handled better in the comics then in the TV show and I have a lot of issues with the way Leo is presented in both these episodes and Rogue in the House.

[Julie]

Leo's my favourite turtle, but I think he was wrong in that episode, Raph was right saying that it wasn't their fight.
In Leo's place, I would let those bad guys punks kill each other!

[Coola Yagami]

They missed the point entirely... It was meant to be about the Foot fighting amongst each other... not the mob and Baxter and crap... and it was also meant to have the Foot Elite basically out for Leo's head for killing Shredder...

I guess they wanted to rush in and introduce Karai already. But yeah, being only season 2 it felt too soon to go the comic route and have the Turtles be tired of the fued between Shredder and Splinter and leave his shadow. I could never see Leo in the cartoons question Splinter and say the classic 'I would die for him... but I don't want to live for him.' line.

[PizzaPower]

tough subject to talk on, im with raphael all the way. but it a way it was their fight. it was i mean really think about it.

[Turo602]

I think...

It doesn't matter what you think!:lol:

Well I think that they were both right in a way. The TMNT aren't really heroes who goes looking for trouble and save the day. The trouble usually finds them. Well at least in this show, and that's basically what Raph was saying, not to get involved because it's not their fight.

But Leo felt responsible for the war and wanted to do something about it. Which is sorta true. If it weren't for them "killing" the Shredder then no one would be fighting to take over. Shredder was the one in control of crime. He kept crime in order but his absence is due to the TMNT and Leo feels it's his fault since he was the one to slice his head off.

Leo was right because it was more personal for him while Raph was still right because that's not what the TMNT as a whole do.

[ToTheNines]

But Leo felt responsible for the war and wanted to do something about it. Which is sorta true. If it weren't for them "killing" the Shredder then no one would be fighting to take over. Shredder was the one in control of crime. He kept crime in order but his absence is due to the TMNT and Leo feels it's his fault since he was the one to slice his head off.

Leo was right because it was more personal for him while Raph was still right because that's not what the TMNT as a whole do.


You're a bit mistaken Turo. Shredder was "dead" at the time because the TCRI building imploded with him in it, not because Leo lopped his head off.

[Turo602]

You're a bit mistaken Turo. Shredder was "dead" at the time because the TCRI building imploded with him in it, not because Leo lopped his head off.

Oh yeah, my bad. I got the episodes mixed up in my head. It's Return to New York, Secret Origins, then City at War.

I really need to rewatch the show again. It's been so long. I actually forgot all the lyrics to the theme. I should know them!:teek:

I guess I got time to watch the show all over again. Summer just started for me and for some reason the turtle craze just came back to me after being dead for a long while. I guess the TMNT will always be with me even when it's dead.

But yeah, Leo still felt responsible for them killing Shredder. Just as long as you know my point.

[Jelly Bean]

I found them both really obnoxious during this story arc to be honest. Why can't all the turtles have an opinion when it comes to stuff like this. Don and Mikey never really have anything to contribute opinion wise and it bugs me. I have a feeling that if the 80's turtles show had ever done a City At War arc that all four of them would have had some opinion on what was going on rather than only two of them. :trolleye:

[cofi]

Definitely Raph .