Mind Blown.

[Donnie]

I don't own all of the 2k3. Believe it or not, I just now watched Same As it Never Was. My mind is completely blown. What a dark episode. Mikey is so badass in it, but geez does he meet a violent death.

I can't believe there isn't even a conclusion at the end that makes you feel like everything is okay and resolved. You would think the episode would end with Donnie going back to present time and seeing his brothers again. No sir, it ends with Mikey, Raph, and Leo all dead, and Donnie gets zapped to some other time period.

My...mind...is...blown! I'm about to head over to Laird's blog and see his notes about this episode. I'm wondering if it was a completely hypothetical episode or if there was some truth to it in the 2k3 mythos...

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah it was a pretty badass episode. I wish I had that one on DVD. I really hope Nick releases the 2k3 series in its entirity on DVD this fall. I love Future Raph and the darker stories, it was a great episode.

Those unfamiliar with it check out a plot synopsis, I'm sure you find it online somewhere.

EDIT: Season 3, Episode 73 Overall. Plot Synopsis here: http://www.ninjaturtles.com/cartoon/2004/synopses/73.html

[Donnie]

Definitely. I can't find anything on Laird's blog as to his intentions with this episode...hm...

[MikeandRaph87]

Definitely. I can't find anything on Laird's blog as to his intentions with this episode...hm...

Never fear for mikeandraph87 is here! I found it on his August 12th entry. Hope you find what you are looking for. If not Peter will be more than happy to answer it just as long as its on the TMNT blog and not the personal life and other drawings blog that you post a question.

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/blast-from-past-386-mar-22-2004-re-tmnt.html

Do you post on his blog? I create this username just for that express purpose the day of the bittersweet sale.

[Zachatello00]

wow, that is um, insanely dark. I'm going to have nightmares about a dead and stuffed Donatello...

[Powder]

Neonardo. ;)

[pl212]

One of the best episodes imo.

[MikeandRaph87]

One of the best episodes imo.

It would have been if it wasn't for killing everyone except April and Don. That part just seemed unneccessary but the premise of it was great.

[BubblyShell22]

The deaths were sad, but it was necessary to the plot. I thought it added more depth to Don that he defeated Shredder but lost his brothers. I bet he was really upset for days to come after he got back from that little adventure.

[MikeandRaph87]

The deaths were sad, but it was necessary to the plot. I thought it added more depth to Don that he defeated Shredder but lost his brothers. I bet he was really upset for days to come after he got back from that little adventure.

It would have been fine if it had added something to his character and maybe carried over through another episode or two aside from him just being glad to see them. It was a missed plot opportunity. Kind of like how he was effected by Splinter saving him and his brothers from the blast in the time stream but only carry over for a few episodes until its resolved.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, I agree, but that's what fan fiction is for. It's for us writers to delve more into things that may not have been explored in the cartoon itself.

[Donnie]

I agree that this should have been a two-part episode, but as it is, wow it most certainly is one of the best eps. I think it's only ep that Mikey didn't joke around in, too!

I do have to ask, though...is Donnie really the glue of the team? I know that without him they would be severely crippled in getting out of tight situations in a pinch, they'd be crippled technologically, okay in many ways they would be in a deficit. Emotionally though, at a base emotional level, wouldn't Mikey be the "glue"? I mean, he gets along with each Turtle very well, and his counterbalance to their occasional outbursts of over-seriousness to me makes him more of the "glue".

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah I agree, I think the glue of the team is definitely Mikey. I think he occasionaly plays dumb to take some heat and remarks from the other 3 to keep them from always being at each others throats. He definitely is a nice counter to the other 3s over seriousness at times.

[Coola Yagami]

Unfortunately... in the 2K3 series... he doesn't 'play' dumb... It still irritates me how they made Mikey so annoying to the degree that his own family doesn't even want him around. I mean seriously... by season 4 or whatever, everyone just sighed and rolled their eyes whenever they had to share a scene with him.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Unfortunately... in the 2K3 series... he doesn't 'play' dumb... It still irritates me how they made Mikey so annoying to the degree that his own family doesn't even want him around. I mean seriously... by season 4 or whatever, everyone just sighed and rolled their eyes whenever they had to share a scene with him.

Mikey's jokes were actually pretty good.

In the first five episodes. Mainly all Mikey did the rest of the series was ruin other jokes or make bad ones.

Like in "The Golden Puck", when Casey says stealing the puck is like stealing apple pie - it's a funny joke, until Mikey asks throughout the whole episode, "Where's the pie?"

[Donnie]

I understand that a lot of people don't like 2k3 Mike, but I find him very enjoyable, and watching the 2k3 was what actually made me contemplate (and still does) changing my favorite Turtle to Michelangelo. Plus, he had a ton of heart in the series and in my opinion, he was the best fighter (albeit the least technical).

[MikeandRaph87]

Unfortunately... in the 2K3 series... he doesn't 'play' dumb... It still irritates me how they made Mikey so annoying to the degree that his own family doesn't even want him around. I mean seriously... by season 4 or whatever, everyone just sighed and rolled their eyes whenever they had to share a scene with him.

If Peter Laird overseeing the series it surprises me that they were allowed to do this to such a degree. Twonsend Coleman's Michelangelo was never annoying his brothers and the whole slapping him upside the head even Splinter.

[Spitfire]

It would have been if it wasn't for killing everyone except April and Don. That part just seemed unneccessary but the premise of it was great.

No that's what makes it so dark and gritty!

Joking aside the episode is alright but there's plenty in season 4 that are better written, stylistically darker in the animation, and without senselessly murdering characters for shock value. But that's just my opinion. I think the episode would have been much stronger as a 2 parter. It felt rather rushed.

[MikeandRaph87]

No that's what makes it so dark and gritty!

Joking aside the episode is alright but there's plenty in season 4 that are better written, stylistically darker in the animation, and without senselessly murdering characters for shock value. But that's just my opinion. I think the episode would have been much stronger as a 2 parter. It felt rather rushed.

That is what I was saying. It seemed to be done for shock value which is overdone in superhero stories.

Leonardo got darker with his season 4 storyline and the mutation of Donatello was styllstically in both animation and plot. A well-characerized story that indirectly lead into the next season. I have alot of praise for the continuity of this show. Its hardly done any better in other cartoons or comics than this was.

[Redeemer]

A well-characerized story that indirectly lead into the next season. I have alot of praise for the continuity of this show. Its hardly done any better in other cartoons or comics than this was.

I have to agree with you I loved how the show had a continuity with the story line. Love the show, better than the OT imo.
But I still think the OT had more potential.

[pannoni1]

That's what gives 4kids its edge the most- the thought that after an episode there is a decisive victory for the bad guys, something that never happened in any incarnation (don't count early parts of multi-parters). We need a Tragedy from time to time (just like how the great playrights have a nice mix of comedies, tragedies, and histories). In the real world, there is always a tragedy in some form happening (murder, assault, kidnapping), so watching stuff like the OT can lead you to believe "in case of an emergency, help is always on the way and everything will be fine." It just becomes so predictable that it takes away the edge. Since Mirage first came out at the cusp of the Bronze age and the beginning of the Dark/Copper/Iron Age in comics, it really gives justice to that era with some of these episodes. The OT is really just a cartoon version as if TMNT was a Silver Age comic.

[ABrown]

It's kinda like, if you ever at some point needed an episode of this show to say "this isn't the original ninja turtles cartoon", this was it. This episode was to this show what "Shredderville" was to the original cartoon. I mean this episode nearly left me in tears.

[FearlessLeader]

I agree with a couple different posters here that I wish more fallout had come from Donatello emotionally from this episode.

Yeah he was excited to see his brothers when they all meet up again, but maybe he could have had a nightmare about losing them, or start to get really intense about building security measures for a while because he can't get the feeling of losing his family off his mind. Heck even some sort of conversation with Splinter about it.

Just something, I love "Same as it Never Was", I personally think it's one of the best episodes of the series but I did see Don's non-reaction to it as kind of a flaw.

The only thing I can think it maybe they thought it would end up being too much like Leo and his uber intensity in season 4??

[NameGoesHere1066]

I like "Same as it Never Was", it was a good plot and Donny was badass in this one which allowed him to step out of his typical "nerd of the group" role and allowed him do som,ething more than all the techy stuff. Actually I felt they gave Don alot of growth in this series and he encountered more crap than anyone else in the series.

Also, SAINW is possiably the only time I took 2k3 Mikey seriously. and no it's not because he's all dark and brooding, I thought he was genuanly handled well and made the most impact on me of all the characters during this skit. Plus whoever voiced Mikey really sold it. Such a contrast to his shrieky grating voice he normally speaks with.

[Donnie]

I believe it was still Wayne voicing Mikey. I'm not sure though.

Donatello (arguably) got the most development and screen time because PL was incredibly at the helm as evidenced by his 4Kids notes he posts on his blog. As Don is PL's fav, I would imagine he paid him special attention. He wouldn't even let Donnie say "yeah" or hardly anything informal! :lol:

[FearlessLeader]

It was still Wayne. The voice actors all did every version of their Turtles throughout the series. It's funny thinking about them doing the tot versions :tgrin:

I know Mike got sick of talking in Leo's "batman voice" during his broody stage, he was telling a story about it at a panel one time.

[Leonardo Mystic]

It was still Wayne. The voice actors all did every version of their Turtles throughout the series. It's funny thinking about them doing the tot versions :tgrin:

I know Mike got sick of talking in Leo's "batman voice" during his broody stage, he was telling a story about it at a panel one time.

Oh, yes. Mike was very unhappy about it. He really didn't like Leo acting like that.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

That's what gives 4kids its edge the most- the thought that after an episode there is a decisive victory for the bad guys, something that never happened in any incarnation (don't count early parts of multi-parters). We need a Tragedy from time to time (just like how the great playrights have a nice mix of comedies, tragedies, and histories). In the real world, there is always a tragedy in some form happening (murder, assault, kidnapping), so watching stuff like the OT can lead you to believe "in case of an emergency, help is always on the way and everything will be fine." It just becomes so predictable that it takes away the edge. Since Mirage first came out at the cusp of the Bronze age and the beginning of the Dark/Copper/Iron Age in comics, it really gives justice to that era with some of these episodes. The OT is really just a cartoon version as if TMNT was a Silver Age comic.

Cartoons weren't that dark 20 years ago.

[ZariusTwo]

That's what gives 4kids its edge the most

The 4Kids cartoon having an "edge" didnt make it stand out though did it?

We need a Tragedy from time to time

What a retarded mentality. No, DON'T need to be reminded of real life in what is supposed to be escapist television.

In the real world, there is always a tragedy in some form happening (murder, assault, kidnapping), so watching stuff like the OT can lead you to believe "in case of an emergency, help is always on the way and everything will be fine." It just becomes so predictable that it takes away the edge

And what exactly is wrong with a wholesome message like "there are role models on the way and everything will be fine"? It's a hell of a better message than "If your loved ones are hurt, strike down your enemies and gut them out of vengeance", represented by the "edgier" but NICHE comic Turtles. Yawn.

"Edgier" one-note cartoons ultimatley become tiresome. Hell the 4Kids cartoon ended up toning itself down considerably to appeal to kids more in it's last two seasons because it had ran out of things to say very quickly with it's previous format.

The OT is really just a cartoon version as if TMNT was a Silver Age comic.

The Silver Age of comics are more wholesome and fun than ANY comic in the modern age. Role models, traditional good vs evil with no shades of grey. Predictable? Yes. Life affirming and positive? Yes.

Comics reflecting "real life" are comics without imagination...and yeah, least I forget, nobody in the mainstream CARES ABOUT THEM

Take your "edge" and shove it.

[Spitfire]

I'm not 10 anymore and my life doesn't suck so hard I need everything to be wholesome and free of tragedy to stave off wanting to kill myself so I prefer stories grounded in some form of reality with real characters. It's near impossible to have a real human story with no tragedy which is why most mainstream movies are predictable and utterly boring. Tragedy builds character and causes people to grow. Everything has it even the most basic of kids shows. Sure it's toned down but it's still there.

Projecting real human emotions onto your characters is far from lazy or uncreative. It takes way less skill to write personality lacking moralistic good guys who do what they do because they're...good guys. Writing a believable character with real depth and complexity is very hard to do and very few writers/filmmakers pull it off well. In comics, especially silver age ones, they dumb characters down so much their personalities are near interchangeable.

Super heroes are the worst role models. They teach you to make any kind of difference you need to be a victim of random chance or insanely rich. Superman doesn't help old ladies cross the street he shoots robots with laser vision. As a kid it's nice to fantasize about dressing up in spandex and punching bank robbers in the face but the truth is anyone truly thick enough to try that is going to be eating a bullet. Most "real life" superheroes are comic nerds who dress up like they're going to a convention and walk around on the streets doing nothing. Most, if not all of them, haven't stopped any crimes from actually happening and spend most their time handing out food to homeless people. Something they could do not dressed up like an idiot.

Anyway I'm far from saying 2K3 fits this bill but modern day comics are much better about this then most of the older ones.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

[QUOTE=FearlessLeader;903222]I agree with a couple different posters here that I wish more fallout had come from Donatello emotionally from this episode.

/QUOTE]

It's the same problem like when you have people getting attacked and whatever, most don't seem tro be chocked, just a little bit scared.

[Uki]

This episode sounds really interesting. I really hope we get the whole series on DVD soon.

[Hermano Dyvas]

The Silver Age of comics are more wholesome and fun than ANY comic in the modern age. Role models, traditional good vs evil with no shades of grey. Predictable? Yes. Life affirming and positive? Yes.

Comics reflecting "real life" are comics without imagination...and yeah, least I forget, nobody in the mainstream CARES ABOUT THEM

Take your "edge" and shove it.

Anger management much?

People like different things, we are not one combined mind with the same thoughts, ideas and preferences.

Personally this is one of my favorite episodes of 2003 and I dig the tragedy.

[BubblyShell22]

This episode sounds really interesting. I really hope we get the whole series on DVD soon.

This episode is available on the DVD "Return of the Ultimate Ninja." I doubt it's available anywhere anymore, but SAINW is on there.

[plastroncafe]

The Silver Age of comics are more wholesome and fun than ANY comic in the modern age. Role models, traditional good vs evil with no shades of grey. Predictable? Yes. Life affirming and positive? Yes.


Life affirming and positive? Sure! If you revel in the sexism and racism of the good ol' days. I'll take modern books with their "lack of imagination" over Madmen in Capes anyday.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The clothes in "Same as It Never Was" reminds of the Archie Future Shark Trilogy.

[Hermano Dyvas]

I also like the throwback to this episode in the season 3 finale. Where Karai slashes Leo And Raph goes nuts and jumps to kick Karai. In SAINW Karai counters with her sword and wastes Raph. In the season 3 finale she's either too slow or doesn't want to kill him and lets him kick her.

[Moonlight1102]

Did anyone else think Hun and Baxter Scottman's death was the most gruesome out of all the deaths in the episode? The sickening crunching sound when Ch'rell flat out stomped them sure didn't help.