Stuff from Mirage you didn't like...

[Logan]

Most of us here are fans of the original comics, myself included. That being said, there are things that Eastman and Laird did in the comic that I didn't necessarily like for various reasons.

Here's a couple of mine:

1. Splinter mimicking martial arts as a normal rat. Even for a reality as fantastical as the Turtles', it seems too much.

2. Making April turn out to be a drawing. Not that it wasn't an interesting twist, I just thought it took away from the realism of her character.

3. Having other super heroes. That's the equivalent of the OT having a plethora of mutants. It made the Turtles less unique and took some of the grittiness out of the comic world.

4. Leaving Image out of continuity.

5. Bringing the Shredder back as a shark. To me, that was a serious kick to the gonads. If I'm getting the Shredder, bring me the Shredder. Don't cop out on me by having his consciousness transferred to a shark.

I'll post more if I can think of any.

[Samhain]

I'll have to think more but off the top off my head I really hated the Superhero thing in the comics. I agree it did make the turtles seem a bit ''less special''.

[CyberCubed]

5. Bringing the Shredder back as a shark. To me, that was a serious kick to the gonads. If I'm getting the Shredder, bring me the Shredder. Don't cop out on me by having his consciousness transferred to a shark.


Read that issue again, it wasn't Shredder, it merely thought it was.


As for me, I'd just say the rather loose continuity in the middle, and the fact that both Volume 2 and 4 felt really drawn out with not much happening for a while.

When you actually stop to think about it, not much has really happened in the Mirage universe. Kind of strange considering it went on for 25 years.

[rufus]

Normal rat splinter mimicking martial arts is the only one I have since I have not read many of the comics. Just a scatter bunch of vol1,2,3

I'm not well versed in the Mirage comics and only have a about a few of the vol 1 issues. Which issue does shark shredder appear?

[CyberCubed]

I'm not well versed in the Mirage comics and only have a about a few of the vol 1 issues. Which issue does shark shredder appear?

Tales of the TMNT V. 2 issues #3 and 4.

[rufus]

Thank you.

[MikeandRaph87]

Normal rat splinter mimicking martial arts is the only one I have since I have not read many of the comics. Just a scatter bunch of vol1,2,3

I'm not well versed in the Mirage comics and only have a about a few of the vol 1 issues. Which issue does shark shredder appear?


I'm not either so don't worry. I do know what your looknig for though is Tales of TMNT vol.2 #3 and #4. The worms that made up Shredder in his second and third outing came back this time possessing a shark. Take a look at your LCS's back issue bin. It may be there depending on how well stocked it is.


I would have liked to have seen more Shredder and not have him offed after Return To New York and have Rat King also be somewhat reoccuring instead of killed off between his only alive appearance and his two or three ghost appearances.

[Powder]

I hated that they had red bandanas and then suddenly switched to colored masks. Oh no wait that's IDW.

[Donnie]

The only thing about Mirage I didn't like were the pointless wastes of paper that were some of those in-between Volume 1 issues. Ya know, the one with Raph holding the cow and running from aliens. I block out the names of who did those 3 issues. Not only is the art appalling, but the stories...ugh.

[Andrew NDB]

Logan and I share a lot of the same quibbles.


1. Splinter mimicking martial arts as a normal rat. Even for a reality as fantastical as the Turtles', it seems too much.

More specifically, I don't like that they never told the story they admitted pondering that would reveal how Splinter wasn't a normal rat to begin with to make the as-seen origin story plausible.

2. Making April turn out to be a drawing. Not that it wasn't an interesting twist, I just thought it took away from the realism of her character.

I actually really enjoy the story where the reveal of this happened... however, I don't like that this revelation didn't really "go" anywhere. "She was a drawing," and then there's virtually no character arc for her afterward. Doesn't seem like there was much in the way of a plan for her beyond the big twist.

4. Leaving Image out of continuity.

Or more specifically, taking it out of continuity when it was already firmly a part of it. Though at least Laird did nothing to directly contradict it after the fact.

5. Bringing the Shredder back as a shark. To me, that was a serious kick to the gonads. If I'm getting the Shredder, bring me the Shredder. Don't cop out on me by having his consciousness transferred to a shark.

Yeah, I loathe the Shredder Shark and "Worms of Madness" angle. It was a good story, but I can't get behind the way it seemed to be dead-set on retroactively de-Oroku Saki-ing from "Return to New York" some twenty years after the fact. That was no worm monster they fought in that, that was Saki... his biology at the time only the instrument of his resurrection, and ultimately unimportant.

What else do I not like... I don't like the loosening of the creative reins to the degree we saw between Return to New York and City at War (though admittedly this DID lead to some very classic and definitive stories).

I don't like the Cowboys of Moo Mesa.

I don't like that there never really seemed to be a coherent direction in Vol. 2. I also don't like its pacing.

I don't like Vol. 4's pacing.

I don't like the stepping away from duotones mid-way in Vol. 4.

I don't like the lack of duotones in Vol. 3. Should've been in color, or if in black and white, then do the duotones or don't bother with the B&W, I say (and still say).

I'm not well versed in the Mirage comics and only have a about a few of the vol 1 issues. Which issue does shark shredder appear?

Tales of the TMNT V. 2 issues #3 and 4.

And #33.

[Jester]

I'm also not a huge fan of some of the "Guest Artist" issues. The tone of those issues is all over the place, and some are just laughably bad.

[ToTheNines]

4. Leaving Image out of continuity.

Peter Laird ignoring the Image story line in volume 4 was the absolute most respectful thing he could have done.

Volume 3 deserved a conclusion on the terms of its own creative team, if Pete tried to continue it or ingrain its elements and characters into his own book years later, it would have been highly controversial and probably a crisis.

By making volume 4 take place several years ahead of the old stories, it allowed readers to fill in the gap with their imagination or ignore volume 3 as they saw fit. And I'd like to see anyone point out one single thing that volume 4 does that directly contradicts volume 3. Since Pete played it the way he did, we're now getting a semi-official conclusion that ties the whole thing together.

Be thankful.

[CyberCubed]

I don't like that there never really seemed to be a coherent direction in Vol. 2. I also don't like its pacing.

I don't like Vol. 4's pacing.


This is exactly what I meant when I said it feels like "not much really happens" in the Mirage universe.

If you remove all those non-canon guest issues from Vol. 1, you actually realize the Mirage universe is honestly quite small. Nothing really happens outside of a few arcs and Vol. 2 and 4 are just stories that get stretched out for no reason.

I feel as if the Tales V. 2 really saved the Mirage universe, because we got 70 issues out of it that plugged in a lot of plotholes and loose ends, while also giving us some fresh new material. The only problem with it was the gang wars story went nowhere.

[Donnie]

Alright, I guess I'm not as up on my Mirage as I thought. What the heck happened with April? She's a DRAWING? Huh?

[Andrew NDB]

Alright, I guess I'm not as up on my Mirage as I thought. What the heck happened with April? She's a DRAWING? Huh?

Have you read the original Donatello special? Remember Kirby's magic pen with the crystal that brought sh*t to life?

Well, the crystal had a previous owner -- April's dad.

Actually a very effective, poignant story. My only gripe is, again, that there was no discernible payoff from it down the line.

[Donnie]

Have you read the original Donatello special? Remember Kirby's magic pen with the crystal that brought sh*t to life?

Well, the crystal had a previous owner -- April's dad.

Actually a very effective, poignant story. My only gripe is, again, that there was no discernible payoff from it down the line.

Thanks! Wow. Holy crap! Yeah I have the Donnie one-shot. Was this revealed in V.4? I don't have a lot of the later issues of V.4, I have up until about #19 or so then randoms of the later books...

[Fugitoid Jones]

1. Splinter mimicking martial arts as a normal rat. Even for a reality as fantastical as the Turtles', it seems too much.

2. Making April turn out to be a drawing. Not that it wasn't an interesting twist, I just thought it took away from the realism of her character.

3. Having other super heroes. That's the equivalent of the OT having a plethora of mutants. It made the Turtles less unique and took some of the grittiness out of the comic world.



The reason why I don't mind Splinter mimicking martials arts as a normal rat, is because it occured in the first issue, and that issue's original intentions was to be a parody, so a rat practicing martial arts is part of the comedy, I suppose.

I agree with you on the super heroes, but I agree with you more about April being revealed to be a drawing. I hated that with a passion. That pretty much leaves the only friends the Turtles have that aren't special in some fantastic way are Casey and Shadow, and if Peter had his way, I'm sure they would've been revealed to be sleeper Triceraton agents in disguise.

[Metropoliskid41]

Logan and I share a lot of the same quibbles.



More specifically, I don't like that they never told the story they admitted pondering that would reveal how Splinter wasn't a normal rat to begin with to make the as-seen origin story plausible.



I actually really enjoy the story where the reveal of this happened... however, I don't like that this revelation didn't really "go" anywhere. "She was a drawing," and then there's virtually no character arc for her afterward. Doesn't seem like there was much in the way of a plan for her beyond the big twist.



Or more specifically, taking it out of continuity when it was already firmly a part of it. Though at least Laird did nothing to directly contradict it after the fact.



Yeah, I loathe the Shredder Shark and "Worms of Madness" angle. It was a good story, but I can't get behind the way it seemed to be dead-set on retroactively de-Oroku Saki-ing from "Return to New York" some twenty years after the fact. That was no worm monster they fought in that, that was Saki... his biology at the time only the instrument of his resurrection, and ultimately unimportant.

What else do I not like... I don't like the loosening of the creative reins to the degree we saw between Return to New York and City at War (though admittedly this DID lead to some very classic and definitive stories).

I don't like the Cowboys of Moo Mesa.

I don't like that there never really seemed to be a coherent direction in Vol. 2. I also don't like its pacing.

I don't like Vol. 4's pacing.

I don't like the stepping away from duotones mid-way in Vol. 4.

I don't like the lack of duotones in Vol. 3. Should've been in color, or if in black and white, then do the duotones or don't bother with the B&W, I say (and still say).





And #33.

I agree with pretty much everything Andrew said here word for word, except the COWboy of Moo Mesa. I actually really enjoyed all of the issues they pop up in Tales vol. 2. Now I wouldn't want them constantly appearing, but I thought their team-up with the Turtles every couple of issues made for a fun story and really reminded me of how much I loved watching the Moo Mesa cartoon as a kid and playing the arcade game back in the day. I guess its just nostalgia but I thought it was a nice touch connecting those 2 universes. :tgrin:

[marcelangelo]

Peter Laird ignoring the Image story line in volume 4 was the absolute most respectful thing he could have done.

Volume 3 deserved a conclusion on the terms of its own creative team, if Pete tried to continue it or ingrain its elements and characters into his own book years later, it would have been highly controversial and probably a crisis.

By making volume 4 take place several years ahead of the old stories, it allowed readers to fill in the gap with their imagination or ignore volume 3 as they saw fit. And I'd like to see anyone point out one single thing that volume 4 does that directly contradicts volume 3. Since Pete played it the way he did, we're now getting a semi-official conclusion that ties the whole thing together.

Be thankful.

I think alike you on this topic, tothenines!...so I always looked at this as a necessity and that it was NOT a move by pete intended to be critical about the image comics(which were great, no matter what you may think of the injuries..)

I also didn't know that april was a drawing of her father..wow!now in what issue was that revealed I wonder...I always was interested in how things played out with april and her father once I would have ALL the turtles comics(that day is far away for me by the way) just from the glimpses we learrned in the early issues(issue three for example) with her dad being sick and her caring about him...then from summaries I learned that we get to know more of her family situation in city at war when she is moving west to her sister(what's the deal with her?a drawing, too??was kirby a drawing??)
on the mimicking thing, I never bothered that one too much...If someone was to discuss this with me I would have assumed that rat splinter only mimicked human motion as good as a rat could but that this creature had grasped the teachings and philosophy of martial arts by being exposed to his master's training and execution of it...you know just being present while a loved human does something extreme(martila arts)...so I was never waiting with a letter of outrage and steam comming out of my ears when I read that part in the book...many of these 'problems' remind me of the simpsons episode with the itchy and scratchy fans and pootchie the dog;)....hahaha

[Toby Barrett]

--and if Peter had his way, I'm sure they would've been revealed to be sleeper Triceraton agents in disguise.

... Oh my god, that would have been hilarious!

[MikeandRaph87]

Marcelangelo,it was in Tales of TMNT vol.2#27. I asked Peter about it on his blog once he said two ideas he struggled with were making Shredder Ch'rell the utrom convict and April a drawing. He liked the Ch'rell concept more as time passed and April as an INKED drawing less.

Here is a visual for you if you want to pick it up at your LCS.

http://www.comicvine.com/tales-of-the-tmnt-tales-of-april-white-horses/37-121640/

[marcelangelo]

thank you for the link and the info!...sad that they never pivcked up on this later on...

[TobTurn]

Marcelangelo,it was in Tales of TMNT vol.2#27. I asked Peter about it on his blog once he said two ideas he struggled with were making Shredder Ch'rell the utrom convict and April a drawing. He liked the Ch'rell concept more as time passed and April as an INKED drawing less.

Here is a visual for you if you want to pick it up at your LCS.

http://www.comicvine.com/tales-of-the-tmnt-tales-of-april-white-horses/37-121640/

If that happened in the comics everyone would've probably hated Tengu Shredder and liked Utrom Shredder...

[Andrew NDB]

Marcelangelo,it was in Tales of TMNT vol.2#27. I asked Peter about it on his blog once he said two ideas he struggled with were making Shredder Ch'rell the utrom convict and April a drawing. He liked the Ch'rell concept more as time passed and April as an INKED drawing less.

Here is a visual for you if you want to pick it up at your LCS.

http://www.comicvine.com/tales-of-the-tmnt-tales-of-april-white-horses/37-121640/

That's just a follow-up. Here's where it actually happened:

http://www.thetechnodrome.com/comics/mirage_vol_4/mirage_vol_4_22.jpg

[MikeandRaph87]

I don't know. Maybe we can contact our Earth-3 selves and find out what they thought when it happened there.:lol:

I like the concept of the Tengu Shredder and didn't like the Utrom Shredder concept. Call me crazy but I thought the Utrom Shredder twist took away from the storyline and the comics. While I like Shredder surviving beyond "Return To New York" it just doesn't feel like Shredder since he wasn't human. Same with Rat King which was just Bishop's imperfect clone dressed in rags thus not a human. The Tengu Shredder plot was just plain fun and I liked incorporating human Orku Saki into the mix as well.

Glad to help with the link,Merc.

[Logan]

I think they could have made more use of Leatherhead. That kind of disappoints me, because there could have been some interesting stories if he had to collaborate with the Turtles in some situation involving alien technology. Maybe have some friendly competition between him and Don.

The Rat King could've benefited from more exposure, as well.

And some of the guest issues I didn't like at all. Much too silly. Mirage shouldn't ever go that direction, or at the very least, not that far.

[Powder]

Did you read any Tales vol. 2 issues at all? Leatherhead was in a whole bunch of them. Plus he was present throughout vol. 3.
All the sh*t you wish they'd done, they did.

[Logan]

I never read all of Tales vol. 2, to be honest. I found the ones I read to be rather forgettable for the most part. I guess I'll have to get around to reading them again.

[Powder]

I never read all of Tales vol. 2, to be honest. I found the ones I read to be rather forgettable for the most part. I guess I'll have to get around to reading them again.

You must've just had bad luck with what you came across, most of them are stellar.

[Leo656]

More than anything I hated Lawson's art. That, and Peter Laird's inability to handle any criticism whatsoever about the art in the book, the writing style, the hundred thousand plot threads that he pretty much promised would never be resolved because he just didn't feel like it, the snarky and dismissive tone in which he would address dissatisfied readers who essentially pay his bills... Ok, just "Peter Laird's inability to handle any criticism about anything, ever".

At this point in my life, I've experienced hundreds of hours of TMNT in all its forms, and Mirage to me...... eh. "Eh" sums it up nicely. It's the original, it's "Dark", it's "gritty", it's... a freakin' comic book about a concept which is ridiculous no matter how you look at it yet some people still feel has some sort of "hard edge" compared to other versions of TMNT, with mediocre art and approximately 7 issues of actual plot in 25 years and over a hundred issues altogether. And it always cost twice as much as everything else, and quite frankly, it wasn't always worth it.

I don't dislike it, but other than the fact it's "the original" TMNT universe I can't see anything special about it. Other TMNT comics told a lot more stories in a lot fewer issues, and even if they weren't as "gritty" or "real", they were usually a lot more memorable and a lot more fun. That's not to say the very best of Mirage isn't among the very best of all TMNT, but so is the very best of Archie, for example, or the best of the old 'toon or the 2K3 show. Maybe the thing that annoys me the most about Mirage, is how some of the real die-hards won't even accept any other version of TMNT. It may have been first, but I'm not convinced it was the best. Very rarely in comics are the very best stories of a character told by the person/people who created that character.

And sorry, April as a drawing sucked. Especially the part where she was a roach and they implied she did it with other roaches. Should I have Spoiler tagged that? Because I refuse, seeing how that story is 8 years old and stupid. Prove to me that Vince Russo didn't write that issue.

[Logan]

Ok, just "Peter Laird's inability to handle any criticism about anything, ever".

Amen, brother.

I thought I might be the only person in turtle fandom to think PL is kind of a blow-hard. Certainly, as the co-creator of the TMNT he has the right to take the story and characters and do with them as he pleases, but if he wants us to pay for his stuff, then he needs to realize that there's a certain degree of fan service involved there. If he wants to make stuff that's completely self-serving to his creative interests and doesn't fall in line with some element of past history (i.e., the Ninja Turtles doing ninja stuff), he shouldn't expect people to buy his stuff.

It would be like if George Lucas decided to make a sequel trilogy to Star Wars called Star Peace, where it was the same universe but, tonally, was completely different. Farmers instead of smugglers; moisture vaporators instead of lightsabers.

[Candy Kappa]

It would be like if George Lucas decided to make a sequel trilogy to Star Wars called Star Peace, where it was the same universe but, tonally, was completely different.

Oh, he did that with the prequels :P

[DrSpengler]

Laird is... yeah.

I can see things from his perspective; that he was doing Volume 4 at his own personal cost (it never earned a profit) and thus he felt entitled not to create a consumer product, but a product that appealed only to himself. If others wanted to pay to read it, that was their call, but he wasn't going to sacrifice an inch of personal creative ground to them. "Don't like it, don't buy it" became Mirage's official studio motto, reitterated in the editorials and letters columns of every issue they published.

I can see things from his perspective and I'm sure most of you can, too. But that's where Peter Laird differs from the rest of us; we can see things from his perspective, but he can't see them from ours. He doesn't understand why we'd continue to buy something we 'didn't like' or why we would continue to support a product or property we believed it, with hopes that the creative forces would open their ears to the more reasonable and constructive criticism.

Where he began losing credibiliy with me is when he would constantly bring up the fact that the book lost money each month; that fans weren't dedicated enough to purchase his book and it was a burden on HIM. Then when fans would describe the minor changes that would potentially help the book become a product more consumers would want to buy... We got the same old rhetoric; I'm paying for it, it's my vision, don't like it, don't buy it.

So we got stuck in a neverending loop. He'd complain that no one was buying the book to make it profitable. We'd tell him what we'd want from the book to make it profitable. He'd tell us to screw off. Lather, rinse, repeat.


Incidentally, Laird has replied to a number of my reviews at TMNT Entity and he's never been anything but polite and insightful. It's begun to challenge what I thought of him as a person; perhaps he was under a lot of stress during Volume 4 and he made the unwise decision to take that out on his most longterm and diehard fanbase? I'm not a mindreader; I dunno.

But it just seems to me that the Peter Laird I've read in the Volume 4 letters columns, and the Peter Laird that has replied to my critical reviews of his art... are two very different people.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I think I've liked most of what I've read TMNT comics wise.

Even stuff that hasn't been too memorable for me, I probably thought it was okay at the time.

A series I didn't like though was Bodycount. It's just too "90's extreme!" for my tastes. I guess I like my TMNT stories to be more imaginative, I didn't care for a TMNT shoot em up.

Volume 4 had some neat ideas, but the pacing was really, really slow. Although that could also be because the release dates got so spread out toward the end.

[Logan]

A series I didn't like though was Bodycount. It's just too "90's extreme!" for my tastes. I guess I like my TMNT stories to be more imaginative, I didn't care for a TMNT shoot em up.


When you said this, the comic that immediately came to mind was Transformers: Generation Two. It had the same sensibilities. Although I do happen to like Bodycount and G2.

[Shreddhead]

Ive gotta say I REALLY disliked the way they treated Nobody in vol. 2. I really enjoyed the secret alien base climax, but seeing Nobody get harpooned and eaten by the little shop of horrors monster felt really random. like they needed a death toll to elevate it's seriousness. Granted Nobody wasnt the best developed character, but i still think he deserved a better end, or at least a little more attention in his last appearance.

[Andrew NDB]

Ive gotta say I REALLY disliked the way they treated Nobody in vol. 2. I really enjoyed the secret alien base climax, but seeing Nobody get harpooned and eaten by the little shop of horrors monster felt really random. like they needed a death toll to elevate it's seriousness. Granted Nobody wasnt the best developed character, but i still think he deserved a better end, or at least a little more attention in his last appearance.

But that wasn't his last appearance. This was:

http://images.comiccollectorlive.com/covers/ab1/ab1156b2-d337-497b-8ac7-29aa638c85a5.jpg

[Raven]

Not to keep reiterating whats already been said, but Volume 4 stands out the most besides the digression of Lawsons art work. Which is a shame because having the Turtles in there 30's was a cool new idea but horribly done!

But for Volume 1 is was more so the case of getting through the filler issues, at first I thought it was cool and unique but now I find it annoying and bothersome. Its really hard to stop in the middle of a story and read about something that has nothing to do with what took place before.

And I know Im kicking a dead horse with this one but April being a drawing? Really? Sure, lets take the one character and add something that no one asked for. That was really the breaking point for me and when I all together just stopped caring what was happening in the books.

[Samhain]

with mediocre art

Are you still speaking of Lawson's modern art or just in general. Because I really don't see how you can say that those eary Mirage books were ''mediocre'' art. Eastman and Laird were spot on in the Leo one shot and issue #10. Art was fantstic with a perfect blend of fighting without dialogue and a bit of humor. Hell, even Lawson's pencils in RTNY were great. Though, I do think Eastman and Laird inking his stuff makes it much better.

But maybe that's just me? Now April, yeah, she looked like a freakin' zombie. They never could draw human characters without making them all look like ''undead man things''. But everything else is just fantastic if you ask me.

But, to be fair, I'm not saying everything was awesome. Really, I only enjoyed issues 1-21, ''The river'' and ''City at War'' from that original run. Everything else, while I enjoy being a big turtles fan, I can say really are not good. At least to me.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I feel like I've stepped into some alternate reality having now read the majority of this thread. :tconfuse:

The thing I don't like about the Mirage universe? The turtles TALK too much. I never noticed it as much when I was younger, but in the early issues, there just seems to be SO much talking...

[DK2]

I feel like I've stepped into some alternate reality having now read the majority of this thread. :tconfuse:

The thing I don't like about the Mirage universe? The turtles TALK too much. I never noticed it as much when I was younger, but in the early issues, there just seems to be SO much talking...

I too was annoyed from this. The Vol. 4 stuff especially. Some of the dialog from the turtles clearly should be inner dialog from their heads, not spoken out. This may have been the case with Vol. 2 as well. What, did they ever think the TMNT should never have thoughts?
I didn't like the Vol. 1 stuff that strayed away either, they should never have been made and ruined Vol. 1's history. I'd rather have had TMNT comics that came out iregularly then have some of them comics actually printed.
Its just as most TMNT fans have stated, Mirage TMNT stories really don't amount to a whole lot after Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Vol. 4., since the last 2 vol.'s were so slow and stretched out in story pacing. The two Tales of TMNT series were of little much more extra stories.

[Shreddhead]

But that wasn't his last appearance.

You know, someone on here had told me that before, i just havent had the luck of finding that one just yet. Do you personally think it was a good conclusion?

[Leo656]

Samhain, you're right, that was a very general statement. I do feel, honestly, that the majority of the artwork in the Mirage TMNT books was "very good" for a black and white comic and "just okay" for modern comics in general, but a lot of the early stuff was some of the very best TMNT ever done, Eastman and Laird's in particular.

I did pretty much learn how to draw them from a Mirage "How To Draw TMNT" comic, so I can't become too much of a hypocrite here, a lot of Mirage art was decent... but I've always felt that Lawson was the anchor that kept the book from greater commercial success. It's a visual medium, it's been proven that people will buy a comic with awful story if the art is great, but if it looks like crap the story could be War and Peace and no one will care. Even beyond the fact that the main artist wasn't terrific, the fact that for most of its existence the book was more of a "showcase" for a rotating artist/writer pretty much promised, "This book will never sell". It's one thing to say, "Hey, here's a comic book with characters you love," and expect it will go great, but readers need to make a connection with the creative team or they'll mentally check out of the book in time. Since most of the Mirage stuff was non-linear, and was written and drawn by a bunch of different people, there was never the consistency that existed with readers and the Archie book, for example.

I did love a lot of the newer Tales of the TMNT, and think overall that book was what Mirage TMNT, as a whole, should have been more about, filling in the plotlines, expanding on characters backstories, putting stuff in order... stuff the main book should have done. Instead, reading the main TMNT book, Vol. 4 in particular, was like being a die-hard WCW fan. You'd watch every week as some great new character or story concept came up, then they'd just forget about it a week later, pretend it never happened, then act like you're the sucker for caring. And yet you'd stick with it because you love the product deep down and just hope it gets better before someone pulls the plug for good, then you watch someone with questionable interest in the product buy out the whole thing, leaving the future in doubt.

Another odd thing that linked TMNT to WCW, was that out of all the years of the properties' existence and everyone's hard work to establish each brand, Kevin Nash did the absolute least and walked away with tons more money than everyone else involved. Hilarious... and sad. That's my random tangent for today...

[ToTheNines]

Peter Laird ignoring the Image story line in volume 4 was the absolute most respectful thing he could have done.

Volume 3 deserved a conclusion on the terms of its own creative team, if Pete tried to continue it or ingrain its elements and characters into his own book years later, it would have been highly controversial and probably a crisis.

By making volume 4 take place several years ahead of the old stories, it allowed readers to fill in the gap with their imagination or ignore volume 3 as they saw fit. And I'd like to see anyone point out one single thing that volume 4 does that directly contradicts volume 3. Since Pete played it the way he did, we're now getting a semi-official conclusion that ties the whole thing together.

Be thankful.

Good point, young man!

[Andrew NDB]

You know, someone on here had told me that before, i just havent had the luck of finding that one just yet. Do you personally think it was a good conclusion?

I don't think "conclusion" would be the right word for it.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Well, as long as we're here:

Mirage's biggest issue for me was it's relative lack of closure. And I don't mean how Volume 4 didn't end, I mean how basically NONE of its long term storytelling pays off in any way following City at War. Not one time. They constantly started things, set up plots and characters, and then petered out and never went anywhere with any of them. There's tons of good comics and stories in spite of that, but the lack of a real payoff most of the time held it back.

(Though now, at this point in the future, Turtles Club has taken care of nearly every dangling thread, so that's fixed it for the most part. We're still left without the Gang Wars or the Present Day Vol. 4 narrative, but basically everything else is tied up now, and Odyssey gives us a pretty good send-off. So overall, I guess it mostly worked out).

[CyberCubed]

I don't really think every single pre-Vol 4 plot thread needed to be tied up, Mirage was written more like the Turtles in "real life" where not everything gets wrapped up in a bow. It's not like a TV show that needed a season finale or modern day comic arcs always looking to wrap up arcs and then set up new ones.

Yeah Tristans stuff got cut short but other than his stuff I didn't really think any of the other pre-Volume 4 stories absolutely needed closure. They all pretty much ended as you'd expect. Not every random Foot Mystic needed to die or be wrapped up, this isn't a children's cartoon. Some people just go on with their lives.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I don't need EVERY thread tied up, but it would have been nice to tie up at least a couple of them. Or even ONE. At the end of the day, this IS still a narrative. There needs to be some kind of payoff to these things, even if it's thematic. But Mirage doesn't really have anything like that past Vol. 1 (without the Turtles Club). Even minor things like Professor Obligado, which was set up, and then dropped unceremoniously like every other plot.

A great example: The original Vol. 3 Conclusion (which is still the best one) doesn't end in any kind of definitive sense for the turtles overall, and it leaves room to keep going, but it's suitibly grand, ties off the Present day narrative, and thematically fulfills a number of plot points going all the way back to Vol. 1 and 2. It's not a final end, but it's a good stopping point. Mirage needed more things like that in the long run, even if many of the individual stories were quite good.

[ToTheNines]

Well, as long as we're here:

Mirage's biggest issue for me was it's relative lack of closure. And I don't mean how Volume 4 didn't end, I mean how basically NONE of its long term storytelling pays off in any way following City at War. Not one time. They constantly started things, set up plots and characters, and then petered out and never went anywhere with any of them. There's tons of good comics and stories in spite of that, but the lack of a real payoff most of the time held it back.

(Though now, at this point in the future, Turtles Club has taken care of nearly every dangling thread, so that's fixed it for the most part. We're still left without the Gang Wars or the Present Day Vol. 4 narrative, but basically everything else is tied up now, and Odyssey gives us a pretty good send-off. So overall, I guess it mostly worked out).

Yeah this is kind of a plague for TMNT comics in general. Image, Archie and Mirage. Turtles Club’s existence proves this, but thank God lol.

Even IDW kind of fits this description, only because it doesn’t know how to end. #100, Armageddon Game #8 and #150 are all fine jumping off points, but it’s somehow still going. Adding new characters and plot lines. Part of me hopes they’re able to end it on their terms and be given enough notice to properly plan a finale, but will anybody care at this point?

[frank_one]

I don't need EVERY thread tied up, but it would have been nice to tie up at least a couple of them. Or even ONE. At the end of the day, this IS still a narrative. There needs to be some kind of payoff to these thingsReturn to New York, City at war, they both have satisfying endings. I'm not sure about vol 2. The thing is Mirage's TMNT was never intended as a comics about characters finding happiness. It's about a bunch of god forgotten freaks dealing with depression and solitude. No story will ever have a big enough payoff when at the end of the day you still are a monster who needs to hide from the rest of the world. Early in the series they find April, Casey and other friends that give them support. They also happen to have a role in a series of adventures so that they can kill time and find a meaning to their existence. Isn't it a good payoff?

[Zog The Magnificent]

Return to New York, City at war, they both have satisfying endings. I'm not sure about vol 2. The thing is Mirage's TMNT was never intended as a comics about characters finding happiness. It's about a bunch of god forgotten freaks dealing with depression and solitude. No story will ever have a big enough payoff when at the end of the day you still are a monster who needs to hide from the rest of the world. Early in the series they find April, Casey and other friends that give them support. They also happen to have a role in a series of adventures so that they can kill time and find a meaning to their existence. Isn't it a good payoff?

That's what I'm saying, though. Volume 1 is the only one (absent Turtles Club) that feels like a complete narrative, where everything is mostly cohesive, constantly building, and comes together to a satisfying climax and resolution. Everything after that never resolves. Volume 2 got nuked before it could do anything, Vol. 3 originally ended abruptly with no conclusion, Vol. 4 still doesn't have an ending, and Tales Vol. 2 started like 7 or 8 different plots that it never came back to. I'm not saying we need to know everything that happens in their lives, or that it even needs to have a happy ending, but the actual narrative part that we, as the readers, are bearing witness to, should have some kind of payoff, some kind of ending. Most Mirage stories after the initial volume just...stop. And not in a "the turtles move on, so they never learn the resolution" kind of way, but in a "we ran out of ink" kind of way. TMNT could have stopped at City at War if it wanted to, and it would have been totally fine. As it stands, the best jumping off point is the original Vol. 3 conclusion, which is suitibly climactic, pays off the present day narrative, and really ties everything together.

I don't even dislike Mirage or anything. It's really quite good in many, many spots. But I do like stories that feel complete, and much of Mirage, until recently, really didn't. Which doesn't make it bad, but it definitely makes is less great than it could be.

[Andrew NDB]

Vol. 2 probably had the worst payoff. The whole last story arc is mind-wiped away. But it was never intended to be a conclusion. We would've gotten vol. 4 afterward without the time skip, I'd wager.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Vol. 2 probably had the worst payoff. The whole last story arc is mind-wiped away. But it was never intended to be a conclusion. We would've gotten vol. 4 afterward without the time skip, I'd wager.

It really was a shame too, because it had an incredibly strong start. The ideas it raised at the beginning were very compelling and a great place to take the story post City at War. But then it just dissolved away. (And honestly, same with Vol. 4. Incredibly strong start, really solid ideas, really good execution... up until #11. Then it scattered to the wind and it's still out there). Ultimately, that's one of the things I like about the whole of Vol. 3 is that it pays off a lot of the themes and set-up Vol. 2, which makes that run feel more consequential than it was initially.

[Andrew NDB]

It really was a shame too, because it had an incredibly strong start. The ideas it raised at the beginning were very compelling and a great place to take the story post City at War. But then it just dissolved away.

You're right. Vol. 1, the middle of the volume aside, was about "We've been raised our whole lives for the one purpose to kill Oroku Saki, then kill him again... now what do we do next?" Vol. 2 was supposed to give the answer but I think -- by design -- the answer was always going to be just whatever Peter wanted it to be at any given moment. Maybe a Triceraton this, maybe a transformation that, etc.. No clear story arcs whatsoever but just "Here is a day/week in the life of the Turtles," issue by issue. I don't think there's anything wrong with that route but it has always been where I've missed Kevin in the room to kind of amp things up with his love of Frank Miller's works and kind of the way mainstream comics "move" and feel. They both made each other so much better.

When people ask, "How were you going to wrap it up?" about volume 4 I think they're not even really asking the right question. Wrap it up? He wasn't going to wrap anything up. The general idea -- I think -- was that he'd just keep putting out Vol. 4 issues forever until he got tired of it and only then -- maybe -- start thinking about some kind of ending, if even then. But the Viacom money got floated around so suddenly it was leaving his hands and for whatever reason he didn't want to really go any further, his 18 comics a year clause or not. It's possible in the aftermath of all of that as the years started passing and he was doing those Q&As he started to think about a hypothetical wrapup.

(And honestly, same with Vol. 4. Incredibly strong start, really solid ideas, really good execution... up until #11. Then it scattered to the wind and it's still out there).

I kind of like where that went and where it possibly would have gone. There's just huge questions left dangling there. Ones I've avoided entirely even in my own stuff.

Ultimately, that's one of the things I like about the whole of Vol. 3 is that it pays off a lot of the themes and set-up Vol. 2, which makes that run feel more consequential than it was initially.

Yeah, Vol. 3 picked up the baton and suddenly injected all of this energy into things. Everything became turbo-charged. You could tell Carlson was sort of finding his way ALONG the way but it was always interesting.

[CyberCubed]

Vol. 2 was supposed to be an ambiguous ending. Had Image never happened it would be fine to leave off there until Volume 4. The Turtles escaped Darpa and Mr. Braunze got them all home. What else is there to do? We even got a follow-up to the Triceratons for the first time.

The Turtles just go on about their lives. Unlike cartoons or iDW, there's not always a, "next big threat" coming, or "the next big story arc," most of Mirage was one and done. Same way all those old Mirage shorts in the Shell Shock trades, the short-lived crossovers, and even most of Tales V. 2 had episodic one and done stories besides Tristans stuff and a few other things.

[Coola Yagami]

But the Viacom money got floated around so suddenly it was leaving his hands and for whatever reason he didn't want to really go any further, his 18 comics a year clause or not.





18 issues???? We're lucky if he does 18 pages. Or even 18 panels...

[Zog The Magnificent]

Vol. 2 was supposed to be an ambiguous ending. Had Image never happened it would be fine to leave off there until Volume 4. The Turtles escaped Darpa and Mr. Braunze got them all home. What else is there to do? We even got a follow-up to the Triceratons for the first time.

The Turtles just go on about their lives. Unlike cartoons or iDW, there's not always a, "next big threat" coming, or "the next big story arc," most of Mirage was one and done. Same way all those old Mirage shorts in the Shell Shock trades, the short-lived crossovers, and even most of Tales V. 2 had episodic one and done stories besides Tristans stuff and a few other things.

I don't think that's right. Vol. 2 was clearly intended to go on WAY longer than it did. This was supposed to be the start of a new saga. It got cancelled because of Mirage's money troubles and various outside factors, and got truncated to come to SOME kind of resoultion, rather than no resolution at all. There's a reason the pace is incredibly slow and deliberate for the first bit, and then punches into maximum overdrive and crashes into a wall by the end.

[CyberCubed]

That's true, it was going to go on longer, but my point was they left it ending in a good spot. The Darpa arc was over, the finale was meant to be ambiguous (at the time), if it all happened, if it was a dream, if the Turtles died, etc.

The Turtles returned home from Area 51, Mr. Braunze saved them, the Triceratons were dead, and the Turtles were with Shadow, April and Casey again in their apartment. For the most part, Mirage TMNT could have ended right there for good (no Image, Vol. 4 or anything later) and it would have been fine.

[Zog The Magnificent]

That's true, it was going to go on longer, but my point was they left it ending in a good spot. The Darpa arc was over, the finale was meant to be ambiguous (at the time), if it all happened, if it was a dream, if the Turtles died, etc.

The Turtles returned home from Area 51, Mr. Braunze saved them, the Triceratons were dead, and the Turtles were with Shadow, April and Casey again in their apartment. For the most part, Mirage TMNT could have ended right there for good (no Image, Vol. 4 or anything later) and it would have been fine.

And if it had, it would have been a crap ending. The DARPA arc of Vol. 2 is the worst arc in that run. It's incoherent, badly paced, literally answers or pays off none of the the themes set up at the beginning of the volume, kills off Nobody in the stupidest way possible, and brings in the nonsensical exposition spouting Triceratons. It doesn't come across as ambiguous at all, just stupid. If that had actually been the last TMNT comic in the Mirage continuity, and there was nothing else after, it would have been better if hadn't been made; just a mediocre post-script season to a really strong story that already had an ending (Vol. 1). The fact that Vol. 3 and 4 came later isn't a point in Vol. 2's favor, it just makes it better for all of us by not leaving it as the final note on the universe and actualy paying off some of its ideas. (Though to be clear, I don't really hate Vol. 2; the first arc, and the Baxter Arc, are both really strong. It's the two part fish people arc (which also undercuts Sons of the Silent Age) and the DARPA arc that bring it down).

[ToTheNines]

You forgot Casey talking like Schwarzenegger the whole time.

[Zog The Magnificent]

You forgot Casey talking like Schwarzenegger the whole time.

Wow, I did indeed completely forget about that... WONDERFUL addition to the plot. And now it has been placed back into my brain. :neutral: Yet another part of the plot that was not only stupid, but also didn't even make sense (because CASEY, of all characters, needed to be brain washed to fight??)

[ToTheNines]

:lol:

Yeah… oh no! Casey thinks he’s an action hero and he’s all gung ho running into dangerous situations with no fear! This is so unlike him!

[Andrew NDB]

I probably read the end of TMNT Vol. 2 at the worst time. Like, these were the first real issues of Mirage I was ever reading beyond TMNT Vol. 1, #21 years before.

It was only THEN that I made it a cause to collect all of Mirage.

[Mr. Entertainment]

You know, reading through some of these posts makes me realize that I don't like that TMNT kept getting cut up into different volumes. It makes it seem like these all were designed as new chapters when something like Volume 2 is pretty much #63-#75 if we wanna go by Marvel Legacy Numbering.

[CyberCubed]

Volume 2 absolutely should of just been issue 63. They only restarted do to doing it with color and thinking it would go on awhile.

[ToTheNines]

This is more of a nitpick, but it’s directly related to the fact that I don’t like the Justice Force: it drives me INSANE that there is a Mirage/4kids character named Metalhead that is not a robotic turtle lol

Which isn’t entirely fair. He predates the FW Metalhead by about a year.

[Heyowakka]

Superheroes can run around but four turtles have to live in the sewers. Disgraceful.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Superheroes can run around but four turtles have to live in the sewers. Disgraceful.

THIS! This right here is why I have never liked the Justice Force in TMNT. I'm not opposed to super heroes existing in the world, far from it. But you can't have a world where people like Metalhead run around and save the day, and everyone loves him, while simultaneously having the turtles have to be hidden and feared. In a world of superheroes, they should fit right in! But being hidden and outcast at large is a core part of the TMNT, and you can't NOT do it. The Justice Force being present always undermine that aspect.

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, the verisimilitude of TMNT relies on the fact that the turtles, the Foot and the Utroms all operate in secret.