What if the turtles were 'bad' guys?

[Samhain]

So, I had a thought. I always wondered, would I like the turtles as much as I do now if they acted like real Ninja? There is no honor within Ninjitsu. Ninjas are ruthless mercenaries. They work for anybody that paid them to kill or assassinate someone. What if the turtles were like that, do you think you would like them more, or less?

[oldmanwinters]

I wouldn't mind an "Elsewords" or "What If?" series of TMNT comics.

[Powder]

I wouldn't mind an "Elsewords" or "What If?" series of TMNT comics.

I would not only not mind it, but I want it more than anything.

[oldmanwinters]

I would not only not mind it, but I want it more than anything.

Anything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPZXk-kapbk#t=03m49s), says you?

Muhahahah...
:twink:

[Hermano Dyvas]

I wouldn't mind an "Elsewords" or "What If?" series of TMNT comics.

I would not only not mind it, but I want it more than anything.

Seconded, well not more then anything but I'd love it!

[Candy Kappa]

If the Soul's Winter turtles got more issues and some development, I think they could go from the usual chaotic Good to Neutral Evil

[Uki]

I'd love to see the turtles cross paths with their anti-universe versions! Evil!!!

Or their total opposites: 4 Elderly Unmutated Ballet Tortoises... (Okay, scratch that.)

[AcidBurn30]

i would still like them, when they join The Foot in the 2k8 cartoon, damn they rock it and they're bad ass..i love it! :)

[Logan]

There is no honor within Ninjitsu. Ninjas are ruthless mercenaries. They work for anybody that paid them to kill or assassinate someone.

Isn't that a bit of a generalization? Historically, ninja were mostly regular folks hired to kill people. They were fairly unsophisticated, sometimes even using farm tools as weaponry. And more than likely part of their motivation toward taking their jobs pertained to opposition toward the target, be it political reasons, etc. You could argue that they were no different than soldiers, who also get paid to defend and attack but often take the career for moral reasons.

But I digress. I actually think it would be more interesting if Kevin and Peter had kept the Turtles in the morally ambiguous position they had in the early issues rather than "heroing" them out so to speak.

[AcidBurn30]

true, we know what ninja is but as a Ninja "Turtles" they should do the bad guy. Does anyone remember when they got clone of the turtles and became dark turtles in the 90's videos fighters?

[Samhain]

Isn't that a bit of a generalization? Historically, ninja were mostly regular folks hired to kill people. They were fairly unsophisticated, sometimes even using farm tools as weaponry. And more than likely part of their motivation toward taking their jobs pertained to opposition toward the target, be it political reasons, etc. You could argue that they were no different than soldiers, who also get paid to defend and attack but often take the career for moral reasons.

But I digress. I actually think it would be more interesting if Kevin and Peter had kept the Turtles in the morally ambiguous position they had in the early issues rather than "heroing" them out so to speak.
Is what I said not accurate?
true, we know what ninja is but as a Ninja "Turtles" they should do the bad guy. Does anyone remember when they got clone of the turtles and became dark turtles in the 90's videos fighters?

I'm not really understanding what you are trying to say. Perhaps word it better so we can discuss it further.

[gobo]

I think he's talking about the SNES version of Tournament Fighters.

[Candy Kappa]

The whole honor thing is romantic bullcrap. Samurai only showed honor to each other in non-combat situations and in duels, in war Honor gets you nowhere.

just look at Knights and Chivalry, it only reserved for among Knights. Knights usually here a nasty bunch of thugs.

[Jester]

I agree that it'd be an awesome Else-World tale, either that or seeing the TMNT story from the eyes of Oroku Saki... maybe.

[Powder]

I think he's talking about the SNES version of Tournament Fighters.

& that's not the confusing part.

true, we know what ninja is but as a Ninja "Turtles" they should do the bad guy.

[Luzmagica]

I get to the discordant note in this occasion ... and I think there are enough bad guys in the world, 4 more with turtle-shape has no a high interest for me ... :tsad::tgrumble:

[pannoni1]

Easy. They would just be trained by Tokka & Slash, destroying the world and Shredder would be emperor! We would have a Shredderville situation exist. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!! But it would be such an acute tragedy that may leave some fans packing. I think the OP must have gotten way too many game overs.

[Kendamu]

Contrary to popular belief, "ninja" was more of a job description and less of a status in life. People took "ninja work" rather than "being a ninja" in the most real sense of the word. Also, while there were the mercenary types out there, the types of ninja people normally think about (the ones who did night attacks, not the spies that were far more common) were samurai who specialized in leading night raids. Being samurai, they usually had a great deal of loyalty to someone. Of course, they weren't the stereotypical samurai. Like the ninja, though, the samurai stereotype didn't actually come about nearly as hardcore as it's romanticized about today until after the fact.

If the Turtles were to be "bad" guys, I would at least like to think that they had their loyalties instead of using their stealthy ways solely for personal gain like common bandits or something.

[Jephael]

I can't help but think about that episode of the classic toon where Donatello created that cloning device and his duplicate was basically an @$$hole. Near the end of the episode Don's clone replicated the other Turtles and those clones were also jerks. I think it would've been cool if the clone Turtles had stuck around.

[ZariusTwo]

They would have multi-coloured beards

[Venom]

Well, since the Turtles essentially started out that way, I would have preferred to see them remain on the fringes of society and taking contracts from the highest bidder. The underground world would hear urban legends about "killer lizards" and think they were disguised (like the Purple Dragons did initally).

[nintendo2600]

After reading this thread it's quite clear most of you don't know squat about Ninjutsu. At first I was mad but then started laughing at the total ignorance spilled in this thread. And "Samurai" is social status not just a class of fighter. In words you might be able to wrap your heads around pesant=low income, samurai=middle income, noble=high income but of couse that is very simplified.

The only person in this thread who isn't just talking smack is Goongasnootch. He seems to actually know the history\reality.

[Samhain]

After reading this thread it's quite clear most of you don't know squat about Ninjutsu. At first I was mad but then started laughing at the total ignorance spilled in this thread. And "Samurai" is social status not a class of fighter. In words you might be able to wrap your heads around pesant=low income, samurai=middle income, noble=high income but of couse that is very simplified.

The only person in this thread who isn't just talking smack is Goongasnootch. He seems to actually know the history\reality.

Well, here come the history police. No one asked for a goddamned history lesson. This thread was made to discuss what it would be like if the turtles had stayed the way they originally were, in that ''grey'' area.

This quote is from Kevin Eastman himself,

'' They liked the moralistic side of them, which I don’t think Pete and I really ever saw in the Turtles in those days. We just tried to make them do the right thing, and we created this little mythology of honor within the Ninjitsu, which there isn’t any. Ninjas were ruthless mercenaries. They worked for anybody that paid them to kill or assassinate or do whatever dirty deed.''

May not be as accurate but you get the poit he was trying to make. Thanks for contributing.

[AcidBurn30]

you nail it perfec gobo, i just wish they made more of these dark or evil tmnt turtles..

[oldmanwinters]

Here's a few Mirage-verse "What If?" ideas I suggested a few years back in a similar thread (forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=24844):

1. What if...
The Turtles had not fallen down the sewer drain? What if Splinter alone had become a giant rat without students? Would he have thought out his revenge on Shredder?

2. What if...
April was corrupt enough to have gone along with Stockman's mouser scheme? Would the city have been overthrown by an unstoppable horde of mousers? Would Splinter and the TMNT have survived the assualt on the sewers?

3. What if...
The Utroms were really intergalatic terrorists duping Splinter and the Turtles into taking out General Blanque and their Triceraton competition?

4. What if...
The Turtles had been raised by the evil Shredder instead of Splinter?

5. What if...
Raphael had accidentally killed Casey Jones in their first meeting and kept silent about it? Would the Turtles had survived the events of Leonardo #1 and TMNT #10?

6. What if...
Kirby and Donatello both got stuck in Warp Crystal's fantasy land?

7. What if...
Raphael surpassed Leonardo as the more capable leader of the TMNT at an early age?

8. What if...
Renet and the Turtles had never found in the time scepter in the giant prehistoric fish in Tales 1.7? What would the time spectrum be like with the Turtles stuck in prehistoric times? Better yet, what if the Time scepter could not take them to the right time, but sent them through time in a "quantum leap"-like series of adventures?

9. What if...
Master Yoshi had survived Saki's attack unbeknownst to Splinter?

10. What if...
The Foot Clan had rebelled against Saki's leadership and followed their tradition?

[gobo]

1. What if...
The Turtles had not fallen down the sewer drain? What if Splinter alone had become a giant rat without students? Would he have thought out his revenge on Shredder?
'Geriatric Mutant Ninja Rat' sounds way lame. :tthumbsd:

[oldmanwinters]

'Geriatric Mutant Ninja Rat' sounds way lame. :tthumbsd:

Well, we would assume that Splinter wouldn't have had to waste time "training" the turtles for 15 or so years. He could have been as spry as he was in "The Passing." Would it have worked? Who knows?

For that matter... how did Splinter learn about The Shredder's operation in NYC and current were-abouts as of issue #1? Seems like and untold tale!

[nintendo2600]

Well, here come the history police. No one asked for a goddamned history lesson. This thread was made to discuss what it would be like if the turtles had stayed the way they originally were, in that ''grey'' area.

Thanks for contributing.

Ummm ya, well then why is over half of this thread stuff people have pulled out of their ass about Ninjutsu and not the ninja turtles and their morals then?

Showing a quote from Kevin Eastman in regards to his ignorance towards martial arts doesn't support your cause any and if anything just shows your one of the ones I was refering too that should stick to watching cartoons.

Thanks for pointing that out thought as it saves everyone who isn't a knuckle dragger the potential time wasted interacting with you.

[Samhain]

Ummm ya, well then why is over half of this thread stuff people have pulled out of their ass about Ninjutsu and not the ninja turtles and their morals then?

Showing a quote from Kevin Eastman in regards to his ignorance towards martial arts doesn't support your cause any and if anything just shows your one of the ones I was refering too that should stick to watching cartoons.

Thanks for pointing that out thought as it saves everyone who isn't a knuckle dragger the potential time wasted interacting with you.


I think you are taking this thread a bit too seriously, man. The whole idea was what if the turtles were a bit more ''ruthless ninja'' and a bit less '' Turtles fight with honor''. That's all.

I can tell you are going to be a solid addition to this forum. You clearly are not going to get along with many folks here, but please, make your way to the ''General Discussion'' section. I'm sure you will find something you like over there.

[Jester]

Wow, you certainly know how to make friends...

Is it me or have we recently had an influx of really obnoxious new people?

[nintendo2600]

Wow, you certainly know how to make friends...



I've been on this forum a short while and I've pretty much had my fill of it. I bought the few things I needed to fill out the last I needed for my vintage turtles collection from the marketplace here (from some very nice folks too) and now I will make my exit. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers by calling out the BS in this thread but as I mentioned you have no worries of it happening again and can go back to your fake ninjer stories.

[Jester]

And I'm so glad you could you the forums to finish your collection. Bye now.

[Samhain]

Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you. Take care.:)

[gobo]

Is it me or have we recently had an influx of really obnoxious new people?
So, you finally admit to your obnoxiousness, Jester... Good for you! :tlol:

This is one of my big gripes with Nickelodeon. Their followers typically aren't my kinda people. :ohwell:

[Jester]

So, you finally admit to your obnoxiousness, Jester... Good for you! :tlol:
Darn tootin'!


Wait uh minnit!!

[Nintendophile]

I certainly hope nintendo2600 starts playing nicely. He's giving us video-game-console-referencing users a bad name! :tlol:

[Jester]

I dunna. GameBoyZ2Men was kind of a douche too. :P

[gobo]

GameBoyZ2Men
:blanksta: I musta been asleep while he was a member.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

This thread makes me want to see IDW start a series of TMNT elseworlds.

[Candy Kappa]

Ummm ya, well then why is over half of this thread stuff people have pulled out of their ass about Ninjutsu and not the ninja turtles and their morals then?

Showing a quote from Kevin Eastman in regards to his ignorance towards martial arts doesn't support your cause any and if anything just shows your one of the ones I was refering too that should stick to watching cartoons.

Thanks for pointing that out thought as it saves everyone who isn't a knuckle dragger the potential time wasted interacting with you.

I got three words for ya, bub.

Pop-Culture Ninja and Ninjutsu

[FearlessLeader]

I actually don't think there is anything wrong with exploring the historical aspect of Ninjutsu or Bushido (as Samurai have also been mentioned in this thread) and relating it to the conversation at hand. There is never anything wrong with educating oneself.

That said nintendo2600, had you not presented your opinion in quite such a harsh, rude way and instead tried to share what you know in an informative helpful way, your knowledge probably would have been welcomed here instead of shunned.

[Konchadunga]

Well, here come the history police. No one asked for a goddamned history lesson. This thread was made to discuss what it would be like if the turtles had stayed the way they originally were, in that ''grey'' area.

This quote is from Kevin Eastman himself,

'' They liked the moralistic side of them, which I don’t think Pete and I really ever saw in the Turtles in those days. We just tried to make them do the right thing, and we created this little mythology of honor within the Ninjitsu, which there isn’t any. Ninjas were ruthless mercenaries. They worked for anybody that paid them to kill or assassinate or do whatever dirty deed.''

May not be as accurate but you get the poit he was trying to make. Thanks for contributing.

I think the key word in Kevin's statement is "were." Ninjutsu, as well as many other Japanese martial arts traditions, originated in the Japanese Civil War, where of course, almost everybody was in it for themselves, and personal gain was the main motivation. However, it finally ended, and the Shogunate imposed military dictatorship and vassalage over the land. This is where the loyalty thing came in. The laws attempted to bind everyone to someone higher than them, and force certain codes of behavior on citizens. Samurai had definitive roles to play in serving their masters (sometimes regional daimyo, but many served the Shogunate directly, as well), and as such they were made out to be very important and were the only citizens who retained the right to bear arms, but at the same time they were watched closely in order to make sure they adhered to their loyalty; hence the code. So martial arts had to descend into the pretentious "real fighters hate fighting" garbage to stay legal.

Of course, today the Shogunate is probably regarded with more scorn than the anarchistic situation that preceded it, but the bit about loyalty to kin remains. The turtles in the early comics weren't exactly heroes in the most moralistic sense, and the Foot weren't exactly villains either, but the Turtles were still protagonists and you could identify with them by the way they saw each other as family, were loyal to their own band, and compensated for each other's strengths and weaknesses. I'm okay with that, and I yearn for the rare superhero who kills his enemies.

[Genesis]

I think the key word in Kevin's statement is "were." Ninjutsu, as well as many other Japanese martial arts traditions, originated in the Japanese Civil War, where of course, almost everybody was in it for themselves, and personal gain was the main motivation. However, it finally ended, and the Shogunate imposed military dictatorship and vassalage over the land. This is where the loyalty thing came in. The laws attempted to bind everyone to someone higher than them, and force certain codes of behavior on citizens. Samurai had definitive roles to play in serving their masters (sometimes regional daimyo, but many served the Shogunate directly, as well), and as such they were made out to be very important and were the only citizens who retained the right to bear arms, but at the same time they were watched closely in order to make sure they adhered to their loyalty; hence the code. So martial arts had to descend into the pretentious "real fighters hate fighting" garbage to stay legal.

Of course, today the Shogunate is probably regarded with more scorn than the anarchistic situation that preceded it, but the bit about loyalty to kin remains. The turtles in the early comics weren't exactly heroes in the most moralistic sense, and the Foot weren't exactly villains either, but the Turtles were still protagonists and you could identify with them by the way they saw each other as family, were loyal to their own band, and compensated for each other's strengths and weaknesses. I'm okay with that, and I yearn for the rare superhero who kills his enemies.
You deserve one Internet. Yes, that's what made Volume 1 so memorable and unique; stories like Shades of Grey and City At War are strong literary works with rich character development, something that I feel many modern Turtles stories try too hard to emulate. But that's another story. My point is that their whole deal with the Foot was all related to personal vendettas and avenging loyal kin. To quote issue #58, City at War Part 9:

Donatello: I don't think we've fought the Foot just for the sake of Master Splinter. We fight them because they are evil!

Leonardo: Is it really that simple, Don? Is Life just black and white?

I suppose it technically is for the Mirage Turtles (yuk yuk).