Is Splinter A Hero?

[Dirty Blond]

There's been an interesting discussion on the board as to whether the Turtles could be considered heroes. I think most folks who've chimed in have said no. ToTheNines said it best:

They're not the worlds most fearsome fighting team. They cut Shredder a lot of slack on several occasions. Donatello doesn't have sexual relations with machines.

They're not heroes.

But I think Splinter is a hero. He has all the goods that make him so.

[Jester]

Mirage Splinter not so much.

I think when people think heroes, especially with the Turtles, they think "Actively seek to go out and do good." which none of them do.

As for Splinter, he trained the Turtles to get revenge on his dead master. Is it heroic that he sent his kids out to start a blood feud that raged for years? Why didn't he just seek out Oroku Saki when he was younger and do the dead himself?

[MikeandRaph87]

He did not start out to be since he used the turtles as a weapon of revenge like Jester said. However, overall with all the version come and gone I think its safe to say he is a hero just like the turtles are. Are they crime fighters? Not so much but they are a unique hero and that is why I like them so much!

[Powder]

They're all heroic in many ways but they're not textbook heroes.

[Drose18]

Mirage Splinter not so much.

I think when people think heroes, especially with the Turtles, they think "Actively seek to go out and do good." which none of them do.

As for Splinter, he trained the Turtles to get revenge on his dead master. Is it heroic that he sent his kids out to start a blood feud that raged for years? Why didn't he just seek out Oroku Saki when he was younger and do the dead himself?

Mirage splinter was useless for fighting mostly in volume 1. I think 2003 splinter was a much better take on the character. And I always was confused why splinter trained them for revenge. If it wasnt for splinters grudge against shredder so many innocent citizens wouldnt have died in City at War. :tconfuse:

[Zany Orange Dude]

They're all heroic in many ways but they're not textbook heroes.

Couldn't have said it any better!:tsmile:

[TurtleTitan97]

Can't say Mirage Splinter was a hero. The other versions are to me. Whenever the situtation calls for it, Splinter would do anything to save his sons. To me, that's what makes him a hero.

[BubblyShell22]

I don't think he's a hero in the sense that many would think. Like Jester said, he trained the Turtles to kill Saki out of revenge for his Master Yoshi. I think that a better term to describe him in the 2K3 series is overprotective parent in that he would do anything to rescue his sons.

[Candy Kappa]

Mirage Splinter trains the turtles to avenge the death of Yoshi by killing Saki.

Fred Wolf Splinter let Saki degrade the Foot Clan to criminals even thought he is the rightful heir to leadership of the clan.

4Kids Splinter and Movie Splinter is a protective father figure, training his sons in the arts of Ninjitsu to avoid detection of the outside world.

Splinter is the old wise sage, the Yoda of the TMNT universe, but he is not a hero, just like Yoda. He is a good guy, and I think there is a difference between a good guy and a hero

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Mirage Splinter trains the turtles to avenge the death of Yoshi by killing Saki.

Fred Wolf Splinter let Saki degrade the Foot Clan to criminals even thought he is the rightful heir to leadership of the clan.

4Kids Splinter and Movie Splinter is a protective father figure, training his sons in the arts of Ninjitsu to avoid detection of the outside world.

Splinter is the old wise sage, the Yoda of the TMNT universe, but he is not a hero, just like Yoda. He is a good guy, and I think there is a difference between a good guy and a hero

The Turtles are supposed to be the heroes; Splinter is just the coach.

Mirage Splinter does train his students for avenging his old master, but Shredder is (supposedly) killed in the original story. But then the comic continues as the Turtles fight with the Foot Clan and other villians, both common criminals and evil space aliens.

Fred Wolf Splinter was hardly able to take back the leadership of the Foot Clan after becoming a mutant rat. If he had tried, he would have ended up facing the Japanese equivalent of the Orkin Man.

[Stingray69]

I guess he could be called a hero. I'm sure he displayed heroic actions more then one time. And really you save one person once and I'm sure they would call you a hero for the rest of there life.

[Luzmagica]

They're all heroic in many ways but they're not textbook heroes.

Can't say Mirage Splinter was a hero. The other versions are to me. Whenever the situtation calls for it, Splinter would do anything to save his sons. To me, that's what makes him a hero.

I guess he could be called a hero. I'm sure he displayed heroic actions more then one time. And really you save one person once and I'm sure they would call you a hero for the rest of there life.

Im agree with specially all this points!!! :tgrin::tgrin::tgrin:

[Sage Ninja]

as much as I like Splinter, I have always seen him as being a tad self serving. So definately not a "hero" character.

[Lulu]

Good discussion, I would add that I feel they are heroes in that they inspire people and work toward a good cause :)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The TMNT and Splinter are not heroes in the same way like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, or Captain Planet.

[Killer Moth]

Fred Wolf Splinter let Saki degrade the Foot Clan to criminals even thought he is the rightful heir to leadership of the clan.

That, and when he was implied to kill his sensei, he apparently didn't voice much protest, as in "no, this knife was planted on me" or "it isn't mine" or "that jerk, Saki, is right next to me, he probably did it." In the series' context, it's hinky, but the whole scene was for the "throw the bum out" line, so, yeah. At least, the Archie version did a nice retcon or tried its best, with Saki killing someone with Yoshi's blade, and successfully framed Yoshi for it.

It's a pity TMNT Dissected's main site is no more when GeoCities went down, as Vicky Hall had great deconstructive criticism of 87 Splinter. (Messageboard is still around, but it isn't much active.) She viewed his actions as a form of manipulation to keep the Turtles under his sway, etc. I'm not quite sold as I tend to view 87 Splinter as generic good, but she makes a compelling case, if anyone is interested.

As for Mirage Splinter, I understand his motivation to avenge his master, but his original point was to raise assassins against Saki. So, no, I wouldn't call him a hero in the traditional sense, but maybe an anti-hero in some ways in the future. (After all, he did help Casey when Shadow was kidnapped by Foot Soldiers in a Tales Vol. 2 issue.) Then again, this was the whole point of the Turtles in City At War, as to wonder if there is more to life beyond the Splinter/Shredder cycle of revenge. In turn, Splinter got a nice deconstruction during his time with the Rat King, so it all balances out.

[Candy Kappa]

As for Mirage Splinter, I understand his motivation to avenge his master, but his original point was to raise assassins against Saki.

This is one of the things I really like about (Mirage) Splinter, he trains the turtles for a purpose, a vile wicked purpose spun by vengeance, and during that time he developed a fatherly relationship and feelings for the turtles.

[Dirty Blond]

I always thought avenging the death of his master was a noble, necessary thing to do.

[Candy Kappa]

I always thought avenging the death of his master was a noble, necessary thing to do.

why is that? It's just a cycle of death and violence.

Take it from Saki's point of view: Someone who was supposed to be a trusted member of the clan killed his beloved big brother and ran away.

[Jester]

why is that? It's just a cycle of death and violence.

Take it from Saki's point of view: Someone who was supposed to be a trusted member of the clan killed his beloved big brother and ran away.
I still think that's a very big missed Tales of the TMNT; a look at the life of Oroku Saki's life following the "murder" of Nagi. Or heck an issue dedicated to Nagi himself. I mean, was he a villain, or just painted that way by the fact he was the one who started this whole story of murder and revenge off?

[Killer Moth]

This is one of the things I really like about (Mirage) Splinter, he trains the turtles for a purpose, a and during that time he developed a fatherly relationship and feelings for the turtles.

I don't disagree with you, but he made his choice with the assassin rising aspect. Even though, it is as you said, "a vile wicked purpose spun by vengeance." In turn, fortunately, as you also said, he did develop a fatherly relationship with the Turtles and later with April. (Didn't she at the end of City At War regard him as a father?) Either way, I now tend to regard him in a more anti-hero light, as his later characterization compensates nicely with his early darker characterization, etc.

Anyway, indeed about Saki and Nagi. Why Mirage never explored that, when they occasionally addressed the Turtles' younger past, it is beyond me. Especially as Shredder would become so popular over the years. Depending on interpretation, it could be that both sides just come off rather negatively in reaction to each other and whether they had enough reasonable justification to attack one another. Nagi was physically abusive toward Shen, then Yoshi may have went too far with killing Nagi, then Saki killed in revenge, then Splinter and the Turtles did their thing, and so forth.

Or to put it in another way, each side prove to be both right and wrong, which may have been the real point.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

why is that? It's just a cycle of death and violence.

Take it from Saki's point of view: Someone who was supposed to be a trusted member of the clan killed his beloved big brother and ran away.

The TMNT and Shredder don't live in established society, but rather outside just looking at it from outside, (ctually like criminal motorcycle clubs). As Casey Jones is a vigilante ("outlaw hero"), their only true link to established society is April (and in the 1987 show even Irma). Even if most TMNT versions tone this down in the future, with the TMNT entering society as heroes.

So what modern Western society think it's right or wrong doesn't make much sense, if they grow up with the codes of Ancient Japan.

[Candy Kappa]

The TMNT and Shredder don't live in established society, but rather outside just looking at it from outside, (ctually like criminal motorcycle clubs). As Casey Jones is a vigilante ("outlaw hero"), their only true link to established society is April (and in the 1987 show even Irma). Even if most TMNT versions tone this down in the future, with the TMNT entering society as heroes.

So what modern Western society think it's right or wrong doesn't make much sense, if they grow up with the codes of Ancient Japan.

this makes no sense as a reply to my post.

[Killer Moth]

The TMNT and Shredder don't live in established society, but rather outside just looking at it from outside, (ctually like criminal motorcycle clubs). As Casey Jones is a vigilante ("outlaw hero"), their only true link to established society is April (and in the 1987 show even Irma). Even if most TMNT versions tone this down in the future, with the TMNT entering society as heroes.

So what modern Western society think it's right or wrong doesn't make much sense, if they grow up with the codes of Ancient Japan.

Or, to put it another way with that term, the Turtles and Splinter started out as ninjas, but later became samurais of a sort. Leo carries the samurai tenets most, but everyone else more or less adheres to it.

While you're technically correct, in that we're talking about animal mutants vs. a ninja organization and outside the mainstream, they don't transcend basic morality, either. Unless the whole lesson is two wrongs don't make a right (what Nagi did vs. what Yoshi did), or they do, but it's a slow process.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Or, to put it another way with that term, the Turtles and Splinter started out as ninjas, but later became samurais of a sort. Leo carries the samurai tenets most, but everyone else more or less adheres to it.

While you're technically correct, in that we're talking about animal mutants vs. a ninja organization and outside the mainstream, they don't transcend basic morality, either. Unless the whole lesson is two wrongs don't make a right (what Nagi did vs. what Yoshi did), or they do, but it's a slow process.

Samurais? You must be talking Mirage.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Samurais? You must be talking Mirage.

For the record, ninjas were originally special forces, part of the regular military forces of Japanese warlords. Later on, the ninjas would become mercenary forces for hire, living in their own provinces.

[Sage Ninja]

this topic makes me miss TMNT dissected by Vicky Hall, she had quite a unique character study of OT SPlinter, of not being such a upstanding father figure.