5th Turtle?

[Cowabunga Carl]

I find it interesting that a lot of people who don't want a 5th turtle are cool with other mutant characters. What is it about a 5th turtle that bothers people as opposed to other mutant characters?

[Jester]

I think it depends on how the 5th Turtle is introduced. There is a huge difference between Tokka, Slash, and Venus in how they were added. Maybe it's also a friend or foe thing too. I don't know, all I know is Venus gets a lot of flack because she was shoe-horned into the origin (which oddly enough, FW's Mondo Gecko was too...not much hate for him.) and once she was there she defeated the Turtles most hated enemy on her first outing. Slash and Tokka are either mutants made by Shredder and his minions or an evil "Bizarro" Turtle from outer space. In those cases they aren't forced to be the "5th Turtle Splinter missed" and are just new mutants who happen to be turtles.

[CyberCubed]

I agree with how they're introduced.

Slash being an evil turtle makes sense because he's designed to be a dark version of the Turtles. Tokka was always paired with Rahzar, and wasn't just a new turtle out of nowhere.

The Dark Turtles in FF were clones, and robot turtles like Metalhead are fun.

Adding Venus or other turtles to the team feels tacky and uneeded. It's like Poochy being added to Itchy and Scratchy.

[Mr.Turtle]

when u say a lot of ppl... hav u researched on that statistics? or hav u posted any poll at least in this forum? personally, i dont think theres anything bad abt the 5th turtle as long as hes decent.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I've been on these boards long before I started posting, and generally people don't like when a 5th turtle is introduced or that is how it seems. I'm just stating things that seem to be a general trend. I my self don't mind another turtle joining the team.

As Jester pointed out Mondo Geeko was shoehorned into the turtles origin in FW and people seem okay with it. Yet when a 5th turtle is shoehorned in people get angry.

[Mr.Turtle]

by these boards u mean this forum ?

[Cowabunga Carl]

yes, these forums.

I will admit I don't know much about the whole Kirby thing. I mean I know that he was supposed to be in a movie that never happened. People seem okay with him.

Yet when it comes to Venus people seem to universally hate her and don't want to see her ever show up again. I think the flaws with the character come more from the show she was introduced in not the character in general.

[Mr.Turtle]

u mean this forum only? u mean a lot of ppl on this forum dont like the idea of 5th turtle?

[TurtleTitan97]

Yet when it comes to Venus people seem to universally hate her and don't want to see her ever show up again. I think the flaws with the character come more from the show she was introduced in not the character in general.

100% agreed. I have felt that because of how Venus was poorly handled in Next Mutation, some people hesitate to the idea of a 5th turtle joining the group.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I was talking in general. From all my interaction with people who claim to be TMNT fans. I talk to people outside of these forums also. To me it just seems like a general consensus. I'm sorry if it isn't as scientifically proven for you, or that there is no poll to vote in. It's just something that I've noticed and I thought asking a question would be harmless. That a discussion could be started.

[Jester]

There's no chance of discussion with that one, Hob.

Part of me wonders if the bad blood for Venus is also fueled by Peter's extreme loathing of her. Having a co-creator of the franchise utterly destroy Venus when ever she's mentioned can color peoples opinions.

[Cowabunga Carl]

That brings into question how much of that hatred is based on loyalty to Liard though. Eastman seemed cool with her if memory served.

I just started thinking about this when I was looking in the comic section and I saw Ross Campbell doing his own take on the turtles and introducing his own turtle, Artemisia. I'm interested in seeing how he brings his character in.

But what if Tom and crew decided to introduce a 5th Turtle? Would people be cool with that?

[Mr.Turtle]

lets start a poll?

[zkarlette]

I think most of the issue is the way that she was introduced into the series and the fact that she is a "girl" turtle , that probably would change the dynamic in the house or something. more than anything I didn't particularly like the personality or voice actor chosen for the part in NM.

[KirkyMonster]

I think considering the tone of Next Mutation in general Venus was handled pretty well and added the mystic qualities similar to Splinter that for whatever reason the original 4 turtles never really seemed interested in (besides the scene in the first movie with the astral projection Splinter in the camp fire) I think Venus characterization filled a personality gap missing with the 4 original turtles. I think Slash is really cool but in my opinion his outer space origin in the Archie series is really dumb, but this is my favorite version of the character, the idea of Bebop and Rocksteady making a new mutant turtle to do there chores was a great way to introduce the new character though I really don't like the way Slash was handled in the cartoon. Even though Tokka came to be in similar fashion as the cartoon Slash I always thought Tokka and Rhazar were way too stupid mentally to be appealing to me (perhaps if they had developed mentally in time I would have liked them). I think Kirby looks really cool (depending which sketch you look at) I would have loved to know how Kirby would have been introduced. The clones from Fast Forward are interesting to look at though I don't know much of anything about this series. I think the more Mutants in TMNT the merrier, because no matter how new mutants are introduced (Turtle or not) the idea of pet turtles landing in the sewer and being covered in radioactive ooze and not only surviving but thriving through humanoid transformation sounds a little stupid if you haven't had the privilege of 28 years of stories to supplement the far fetched origin.

[Cowabunga Carl]

Could someone who knows more about Kirby post about what they know about him? What was the idea behind him? Why didn't he come to fruition?

[ZariusTwo]

I think considering the tone of Next Mutation in general Venus was handled pretty well and added the mystic qualities similar to Splinter that for whatever reason the original 4 turtles never really seemed interested in (besides the scene in the first movie with the astral projection Splinter in the camp fire) I think Venus characterization filled a personality gap missing with the 4 original turtles

There was no missing character gap. Being interested in whamy mystic s*ite is unrelatable.

[Candy Kappa]

what I have seen is mostly fanon 5th turtles, usually badly written Sues made for love interest or just to outshine the main turtles.

I think the flack Venus mostly gets isn't that she's a female, but was badly written. And served as a love interest for the turtles while being a overpowered magic user that took out Shredder without breaking a sweat or even fight. And she doesn't really bring much to the table in NTNM as a team player and as a character.

Slash never felt like the 5th turtle since he was an alien/Bebops pet, and Tokka is the same deal. You have to be a very good writer to make a compelling and a engaging story where there always was five turtles, sadly that wasn't the case with Next Mutation and I think that left a sour taste for many when it comes to an actual 5th turtle.

Now that said, I do like the idea of Venus.

[KROW]

Benvenuto's still my favorite.

[Candy Kappa]

No 5th turtle beats Benvenuto

[Jester]

Jester likes the 2 previous posts.

[XERO]

It's all in the imagination, dawgs.

I never worried about putting Benvenuto in the TMNT at a later time. I just went the easy and most compromising route and added him in the BEGINNING. Instead of 4 baby Turtles, there were 5. No seperations, no side stories. He was just there, going through whatever they went through as they grew up.

Might be breaking the rules a little, but when you compare to the other 5th Turtle wannabes who tried and failed over the years here at the Drome, who's the one that stuck around the most?

It wasn't all me, though. It was you guys who made it believable for the past 8 years. It's just gettin' older... I felt that I needed a change and it was time to be my real self.

Benvenuto lives on, though... ;)

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/203/2/b/Experimental_Style___Ben_by_Kobb.jpg

[Jester]

To me, XERO, you'll always be Benvenuto. :D

[Mr.Turtle]

since each turtle got completely different type of weaps, i think the 5th turtle shud use something different frm the other 4 turtles too... and its better not be something like a combination of the other turtles weaps... any idea?:roll:

im thinking a nice pair of daggers. he could be an ninja assassin in the past n met the turtles one day in a mission or something and become their friend in the end...

[zkarlette]

Benvenuto will live forever! Xero you better keep those Benvenuto drawings I made.:P

[SS_Turtle]

Could someone who knows more about Kirby post about what they know about him? What was the idea behind him? Why didn't he come to fruition?

Here's a posting about Kirby from:
http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2011/03/4th-live-action-tmnt-movie-that-never.html

And Then There Was Kirby

So who the Hell is Kirby? I dunno, but apparently he was going to be in this movie.

Plans were made for “TMNT: The Next Mutation” to feature a brand new “Fifth Turtle”. As the original foursome were all named after renowned artists, this fifth Turtle would follow suit, taking his proper noun from Jack Kirby (whom Eastman and Laird were, and still are, unashamed worshippers). Any further information on Kirby, such as how he would have been implemented in the film (A villain? A brother?) is unknown to this day. Whether he hails from the same script treatment that saw the Turtles undergoing their secondary mutations or whether he was created for an entirely separate plot is also a mystery yet to be revealed.

All we know of Kirby comes from two places. The first being a two-page spread of artwork in Kevin Eastman’s “Artobiography” coffee table book. The pages boast over a dozen potential designs for the character with only this tidbit to put them in context: “TMNT movie four concept sketches for a fifth Turtle named ‘Kirby’.”


There is absolutely no telling what kind of a personality Kirby might have had, or even what he may have actually wound up looking like (the collage of sketches cover a ridiculously wide range of ideas and gags). The only thing the various sketches seem to have in common is that Kirby would have had four fingers instead of three. Fascinating.

Kirby was more than just some idle concept doodled by Eastman in his spare time, though. A design sketch by Mirage staffer Michael Dooney was submitted to Playmates for a potential “Cyber Kirby” action figure.

It's doubtful that Kirby would have been a cyborg in the film, as Playmates had a habit of subjecting the Turtles to all sorts of indignant outfits that neither reflected the content of actual TMNT media, nor the tastes of the toy-buying public. Still, he’s kinda cool-looking.

But while we're on the subject of Kirby, "TMNT: The Next Mutation" and Playmates, Kirby made another brief appearance, this time as a mysterious sillouette drawn by Michael Dooney for the 1996 Playmates Toys catalog, on their page advertising the upcoming "TMNT IV" toyline and merchandising campaign:


"Look out for the fourth and hottest Turtle feature film ever! It's a weird world of parallel dimensions and gothic proportions - and Playmates is backing it all the way with a multi-million dollar promotional campaign and a massive mound of Mutant movie Turtle toys!"

Playmates seemed pretty certain this film was on the way (listing Trimark as the distributors), readying the toy-hungry public for their exhaustive wave of "TMNT IV" merchandise leading up to the 1996 holiday season's release of the film. Well, that never happened. Exactly how much "TMNT IV" merchandise made it to the test production stage is unknown, with only the aforementioned "Cyber Kirby" toy being revealed to the public as a potential release (I imagine a "regular" Kirby would have filled out the line along with versions of the Turtles with their secondary mutations).

Precisely what they meant by "parallel dimensions" and "gothic proportions" is a mystery to me, at least in relation to Laird's info about the proposed film's plot. Did Kirby come from a parallel universe? We'll probably never know.

[SS_Turtle]

Could someone who knows more about Kirby post about what they know about him? What was the idea behind him? Why didn't he come to fruition?

I was also hoping who ever bought the movie screenplay from the 4th movie last month from Heritage would have scanned the screenplay and posted it online.
I'm sure in good time someone will post it online.

[Cowabunga Carl]

Thanks SS Turtle. That actually helped a bit.

I agree if someone has the script that this character came from it would be awesome to see it come to light. Maybe next time someone is talking to Kevin they can ask him about him.

[Last_of_the_Brunnen-G]

I think it could also be that the basic story and rule for the Turtles has been well established for so long that adding a 5th turtle just doesn't click well with most fans. Like most comic characters, adding a cool new villain works, but making some big change to the hero's formula doesn't go over so well.

[Candy Kappa]

since each turtle got completely different type of weaps, i think the 5th turtle shud use something different frm the other 4 turtles too... and its better not be something like a combination of the other turtles weaps... any idea?:roll:

If you're referring to Ben's weapon. You do know that the Naginata is a real weapon with it's own unique techniques that differ from the Bo.


Although. I've always been a fan of sword-chucks.

[BubblyShell22]

I think just putting a fifth Turtle in there isn't the way to go unless he/she has grown up with the Turtles all of his/her life. This was the problem with Venus. She wasn't there from the beginning and just showed up unexpectedly. So, that was the reason I didn't like her.

As for fan fiction fifth Turtles, it depends on the writer and how they introduce said Turtle. I myself am working on a fifth Turtle fan fiction where Lucia has always been with the Turtles since day one. I have also read quite a few good fifth Turtle fics that really work with introducing the idea. As long as the Turtle isn't a love interest for the boys, I'm okay with it.

[Francis The Lost Turtle]

Look at my avatar for my 5th turtle.

[TheBlueTurtle1]

Why would you want a 5th turtle? 4 main characters is enough! what would another turtle add???

If it aint broke, dont fix it!

[juxtapose519]

Why would you want a 5th turtle? 4 main characters is enough! what would another turtle add???

If it aint broke, dont fix it!

This is my biggest question, and my biggest problem with the 5th turtle debate. There's no good justification for adding another turtle except simply for the sake of adding another turtle. Why?

[Cowabunga Carl]

See I just don't get that argument. It's like someone who is for it saying not adding one is simply for the sake of not adding another turtle. To me I think if it was done right it wouldn't be a big deal, if done poorly then it could screw everything up. I'm more like Switzerland on this one, don't really have a side. Was just curious on why people feel the way they do.

[Candy Kappa]

same deal with adding an extra Ranger in Power Rangers, to change things up and tell new stories.

[XERO]

Benvenuto will live forever! Xero you better keep those Benvenuto drawings I made.:P

I actually don't have them anymore. :(

And yeah, when I was masquerading as Benvenuto, his weapon was the Naginata. Before I did actual research on the weapon, I actually used to call it a Botana. :lol:

[pannoni1]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of Zach, in which he acts more of as a big fan like us who wishes he was a Ninja Turtle, which is much more inspirational than simply adding a more random female or mutating a popular character. At least with April and her number "5" on her shirt we shouldn't have to expect an actual fifth turtle in the new Nick series. I just don't like it when a fifth turtle overshadows the other four throwing them out of balance, unless if the fifth turtle is specifically designated as the new leader, making Leonardo the new lancer. Its just that most attempts to add a fifth turtle has caused the chemistry between the team to break down a bit.

[KirkyMonster]

There was no missing character gap. Being interested in whamy mystic s*ite is unrelatable.

So Splinter is unrelateable too then???

[Redeemer]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of Zach, in which he acts more of as a big fan like us who wishes he was a Ninja Turtle, which is much more inspirational than simply adding a more random female or mutating a popular character. At least with April and her number "5" on her shirt we shouldn't have to expect an actual fifth turtle in the new Nick series. I just don't like it when a fifth turtle overshadows the other four throwing them out of balance, unless if the fifth turtle is specifically designated as the new leader, making Leonardo the new lancer. Its just that most attempts to add a fifth turtle has caused the chemistry between the team to break down a bit.

Completely and 100% agree. I think it would actually be interesting to see a 5th turtle take on the leadership role, A more emotional leader and Leo could fully flesh out his arsenal with out worry of being responsible for leading the team.

[Cryomancer]

They already under-use tons of characters in most TMNT incarnations anyway, and the TMNT themselves have a tenancy to become fairly one-dimensional personalities as well.

tl:dr opinions on Venus:

I watched Next Mutation for the first time recently, and Venus was not as offensively awful as people make her out to be. If anything, she's one of the least obnoxious things in the show (when not trying to make jokes, which everyone fails at equally). The presence of Venus doesn't make the other turtles in NM decide to rapid-fire terrible catchphrases every time they start their car. Her defeating Shredder right away is pretty lame (although almost worth it to have homeless shredder later on), and the overall plot for the show is essentially she something brought to their doorstep, but otherwise, eh, I've seen worse characters. Whoever decided she should wear light blue is pretty dumb though, yellow or grey or something would have been a much more sane choice (pink probably being a bit too stereotypical). Probably the biggest problem she introduces is that the guys apparently want to bang her, and therefore now they start throwing around "we're so totally not related!" stuff which undermines the family theme much of TMNT shares. She did have a unique skill set and weapon at least. Defeating Shredder would have been better handled as something a bit more drawn out probably, or with her arriving just before they were close to defeating him anyway (or, you know, afterwards). She did bring 1) an extra body and, 2) a new form of "attack" to the battle however, so it's at least slightly tolerable.

Besides the best 5th turtle is Keno, he's a Surf Ninja.

[Stingray69]

[QUOTE=Jester;956340]I don't know, all I know is Venus gets a lot of flack because she was shoe-horned into the origin (which oddly enough, FW's Mondo Gecko was too...not much hate for him.) QUOTE]

Wasnt there another charactor shoe horned in like that?

[Fugitoid Jones]

I'm of the opinion that adding a 5th Turtle does seem unnecessary, because the 4 Turtles are interesting enough as characters to not need another member added to their team in order to tell new and fresh, interesting stories. Plus, no matter what, it always just feels forced and tacked on to say there was another Turtle with them.

BTW, I didn't mind Mondo being added to the origin, because it wasn't like he was in the bowl with the Turtles, he was just in the sewers at the time of the ooze incident. That origin connects him to the Turtles, but not in a 'missing 5th member' kinda way.

[Cryomancer]

The real "5th" turtle: Daredevil.

[Cowabunga Carl]

So here is a question, is it the idea of the "5th Turtle" being in the bowl what turns people off or the fact it is a turtle alone? I mean if it just happened to be another turtle mutant is it tht bad?

[Bossk]

I don't like the idea of adding a fifth turtle in the sense of adding one to the team, but I really hate change so I wouldn't be the best person to ask. A fifth turtle in the sense of one with them depends. If they did it sort of in the sense of it didn't fall down the sewer and the kid was able to save it temporarily or something of the sort (not the best idea, but you get the point).

If they can pull it off as an adversary or an ally without being permanently included I'll be fine, but that's just me being my static self.

[Cipher]

I don't like the idea of a fifth Turtle because it's different from what I'm used to and that's scary.

[Leo656]

I think the fact Venus was more or less only created so the others could try and boink her was a big turn-off for many and soured their taste on the whole idea.

I'm of two minds, I mostly think anything CAN work if it's done well, while agreeing that some things are simply not necessary. I can see how there *could* have been 5 turtles right from the start, in fact that might even be logical, but I also don't see how/why that fifth one could make things altogether "better" than what's always been, which should be the only reasoning factor in including it.

Further, TMNT kinda already suffers from having a full cast. All 4 turtles, Splinter, and even April and Casey could be accurately called "main characters", adding another one, especially another Turtle, is cramming. Plus, in an ensemble cast each character more or less has a "role" to play and an archetype to fall back on (Leo = "Fearless Leader", Raphael = "The Angry One", etc.); each of the 4 Turtles does that famously well as each of them are instantly relatable. What kind of archetype would the 5th Turtle be? Mysterious loner? Self-important narcissist? Some combo of the other Turtles' personality quirks? Kinda seems like all the good ones are taken already.

I think it would work better as an arc than a new status quo. Like, it turns out there was always a 5th Turtle, they do the backstory, zoom up to present-day events establishing the character, then have them eventually die battling some grave new threat in a Heroic Sacrifice (TM) to save the other 4. I think adding a 5th Turtle and having them actually stick around sort of makes everyone involved less special and the entire idea slowly becomes more boring. But I'm not flat-out against the idea.

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, I agree. It can work well provided on how it's handled. I know there are a lot of fan fic writers who have only done this idea so the Turtles could have a "love interest" of sorts. I think it's the same kind of thing as creating an OC. It can be done as long as it's done well, but there are instances when such things should be left alone.

[Newton Gimmick]

I think the issue is the whole 5th Turtle part itself. More mutants is fine, to an extent. When the Turtles themselves lose their uniqueness because there are more "brothers" then it's an issue. Part of the internal struggle with the TMNT in the comics and such, is that they are one of a kind. Lonely, attached forever to one another but with no one else who truly is the same.

Villains that are Turtles I'm okay with in a very limited quantity. Typically a different breed of Turtle, like Slash or Tokka, which emphasize the differences greatly. But adding another Turtle or many, who are just like the TMNT, infringes on the Turtle's own uniqueness.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I find it interesting that a lot of people who don't want a 5th turtle are cool with other mutant characters. What is it about a 5th turtle that bothers people as opposed to other mutant characters?

If they had originally been five, we would talk about a 6th and so on, so it doesn't make much sense. (And I talk of the TMNT gang/family now, not Slash or Tokka)

[whitefox360]

Though i totally agree that anything can be done as long as it's done well, i think the largest reasons behind the disdain toward a fifth goodguy turtle come from the fact that we already have 4 of them that have their own origin, mythology and etc.

No one's against new characters, or even new mutated turtles. But, after all this time you cant say the fifth turtle was there all along, or close by, and mean it because they quite simply werent. Thats like giving bruce wayne a twin brother in the monarche alley who also grew up to become batman so they can alternate weekends and work in shifts.

Maybe in earth 35, not in earth 1.

The fact that Anything can be written well doesnt change the fact that many things shouldnt be.

Oh, and hello everyone : )

[Mr.Turtle]

The real "5th" turtle: Daredevil.

http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/daredevil101prev/DaredevilAnnual1Cover.jpg

:o:o:o???

[Cryomancer]

Yes, Daredevil. Read Mirage sometime.

[Mr.Turtle]

^ what make u think he is a turtle?

[Lance_Steele]

The only reason why I don't really like Venus so much was the fact that she comes off as a Mary Sue. Someone already pointed out how the fact that she beat Shredder early in the seriesvwas lame enforced my opinion. Any Johnny come lately character IMO who shoe horned into an already established series like TMNT is going to be "A F***ing New Guy". Meaning it's going to be pretty hard to win over long time fans without looking like a spotlight stealing hack.

BTW I originally thought you guys were talking about Zack the so called 5th turtle. XD

[CyberCubed]

The reason people like Slash as a concept is because he's the typical anti-hero. He's the same reason Venom exists for Spiderman or why there are "dark versions" of every major hero out there.

Tokka is kinda odd, because if he wasn't always paired with Rahzar he's seem a bit bland. Sure he's a snapping turtle, but its the fact that he's not just another evil turtle makes him stand out a bit more.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The reason people like Slash as a concept is because he's the typical anti-hero. He's the same reason Venom exists for Spiderman or why there are "dark versions" of every major hero out there.

Tokka is kinda odd, because if he wasn't always paired with Rahzar he's seem a bit bland. Sure he's a snapping turtle, but its the fact that he's not just another evil turtle makes him stand out a bit more.

I just hate when Slash runs around in town looking for a palm tree. I love him being cool and dark.

[n-zero]

It's like changing the roster of the Fantastic Four. Sometimes, its interesting in the short term to see how the characters react to the shakeup, but ultimately the series is based around a perfectly crafted set of personalities that work so perfectly together that its usually a mistake to mess with that roster for more than a brief plotline.