Things change (and how the TMNT property is sort of like Batman)

[Vincent]

So, there was the comic, then there was the show, then there was the comic based on the show, then there was the movie trilogy, then a Japanese miniseries, then another show, then yet another show, then a comic based on that show, then another movie, and a movie based on two shows, and now there's a new comic and there's gonna be a new show and then a movie reboot.

So, as fans of whatever past versions we might be fans of, I think the most sensible thing we can do is take a deep breath and think of Batman.
Batman is a character who (and mythology that) has been reinterpreted and rebooted in various mediums and various tones over the years, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but when it doesn't work, it usually isn't because of tone, but because of the ideas just not being handled very well. And vice versa. The William Dozier live-action Batman television series (starring Adam West and Burt Ward) was a very comedic interpretation of Batman, and in a lot of ways, it worked. As did the much more recent animated series "Batman: The Brave and the Bold," which focused on team-up adventures with a similarly lighthearted and silly tone. But that doesn't negate the power of things like "Batman: The Animated Series" and "Batman Begins" (and its sequels), or how much the Schumacher movies sucked.

In the same way, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles property has been interpreted in both light and dark tones, sometimes both equally, and I think it's fair to say that when it works, it's not specifically because of attempted tone, but because of successful utilization of ideas. Personally, I'd say things like "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III", "The Next Mutation" and "Fast Forward" failed, not because of the choice of tone, but because the ideas just didn't work, or weren't used very well. I could tell that Next Mutation and Fast Forward wouldn't work just from hearing the pitch, because they tampered with essential aspects of what makes TMNT work in the first place. Next Mutation added an extra turtle, which is one of the first things one would think of when trying to make a list of typical ways in which a show could jump the shark. Fast Forward ripped the main setting of the show completely out of the concept in favor of a setting with much less dramatic potential, which is practically suicide for a show where the setting is basically one of the main characters (they could maybe have pulled it off for a a three episode arc, but giving it a full season and new theme song was just too much).

So that brings us to the new show. What do we know about it? That they're taking some ideas from different past interpretations, based on what they think will work for the kind of show they're trying to do, changing some things around a bit, adding some new stuff, et.c..
Are some of the changes obviously arbitrary? Well, yes, the increased number of toes comes to mind, but that's a design issue. What do we know about the actual story?

Well, there's a new alien species (or political group or something) called the Kraang, which seem to resemble the Utrom, except they're not as friendly, or in other terms they seem to resemble Krang, except not as singular. Does that decrease peril? Not necessarily. Does it mess up the dynamic of the four turtles? Not necessarily. Does it ruin the thematic implications of The Shredder? Well, not unless he turns out to be a Kraang, so most likely that's a no as well. Does it ruin the thematic implications of Krang? Um...when did Krang ever have thematic implications? Does it ruin the comedic potential? There is literally know way to know that yet. Personally, I'm okay with the idea of the Kraang. Hopefully they'll handle it well.

Another thing we know is they've made April younger. So we might ask ourselves, why? At first, I thought this seemed pretty arbitrary, but it makes sense from an audience perspective. The original TMNT comic wasn't for little kids (it was pretty much for any non-sensitive readers, which would translate to mid-teens and up), so April was given the mother role. She became "the adult". In reinterpreting TMNT for children, it makes sense for the people making the show to want to give young girls someone to relate to, and also to give kids in general the message that it's okay to hang out with kids of another gender, and that a strong girl doesn't have to be your mom, she can be your friend.

Which brings us to another change we know about: Don's crush on April. This is the kind of stuff I'm sure originated in fan fiction. I'm sure there are people going "Yay! Finally! This!", and I see where that's coming from. And I personally don't like it. Because it's a cliche. It's the old "these two have a shared interest, and they're different genders, SO THERE HAS TO BE ROMANTIC TENSION!". It's a cliche. It's Hollywood nonsense. Can't a guy just have a lot in common with a girl, and not have a crush on her? On top of that, dude's not even a mammal, and they're still pushing this cliche. They might end up handling it very well, and it might be totally sweet and adorable, but I just don't like the idea of it, because I think it sends a bad message to girls about "if a boy, even if he's a turtle, pays attention to you, he wants something from you other than friendship", and to boys about how they should be expected to relate to girls. It perpetuates stereotypes, and it's a pet peeve of mine. But it's not necessarily enough to ruin the show for me. If it's good, it's good, and it is what it is. It's just one of those things that bother me.

All in all, I don't see much here to go "this show's gonna suck!" over. I have some pet peeves and nitpicks about where they're going with some things, but I personally am going to just wait and see how it turns out.

So, anyone else got any observations on the things we know about this show so far?

[Cure]

Jesus, just start a blog.

Everything is already being discussed elsewhere.

[CyberCubed]

From the two clips shown I'd say this show looks to be very good. A light hearted but entertaining show is perfect especially following the 4kids series.

Even the CG animation looks much better than I thought it would. All my fears have subsided. We're in good hands with Nick.

[Mr.Turtle]

but the turtles r not that dark as batman...

[Vincent]

but the turtles r not that dark as batman...
Some TMNT stories have been darker than some Batman stories. My point is it varies.

[Mr.Turtle]

but not that dark...?

[Candy Kappa]

Yes, the similarities between Batman and TMNT is both can go from Pulp to Space-Adventure and back

[Slade]

So, is this thread about how TMNT and Batman have similarities or that you don't like Don having the crush on April?

Though I do have to say, I don't think it started with fanfiction. Look at the first movie. All four of the turtles seemed to have a bit of a crush on April.

[Mr.Turtle]

^ even raph?

[Koi]

I want to hit you.

[Slade]

^ even raph?

I mean I didn't just say ALL FOUR OF THE TURTLES seemed to have a bit of a crush on April. So, no, not Raph.

[Vincent]

So, is this thread about how TMNT and Batman have similarities or that you don't like Don having the crush on April?

It's just some thoughts on how a property can be reimagined in different ways, and the relationship between tone, ideas and execution, along with some personal opinions of some of the ideas we've been presented with. And yes, I do think that's very much an area in which TMNT is comparable to Batman, seeing as both are capable of working in various tonal interpretations, which isn't necessarily something that applies to all concepts.
Just trying to start a discussion.

[Mr.Turtle]

well i think the turtles r not that dark. at least they have brothers. batman has no family.

I mean I didn't just say ALL FOUR OF THE TURTLES seemed to have a bit of a crush on April. So, no, not Raph.

u kno that d be really complicated if raph does right? coz raph is just a turtle version of casey.

[Slade]

I want to hit you.

:lol:


It's just some thoughts on how a property can be reimagined in different ways, and the relationship between tone, ideas and execution, along with some personal opinions of some of the ideas we've been presented with. And yes, I do think that's very much an area in which TMNT is comparable to Batman, seeing as both are capable of working in various tonal interpretations, which isn't necessarily something that applies to all concepts.
Just trying to start a discussion.

I gotcha. Yeah I can see the comparisons in the two as far as tone and execution.



u kno that d be really complicated if raph does right? coz raph is just a turtle version of casey.

The hell????

[TurtleMaster4]

well i think the turtles r not that dark. at least they have brothers. batman has no family.



u kno that d be really complicated if raph does right? coz raph is just a turtle version of casey.

seriously dude do you ever shut up?

[Mr.Turtle]

^ do u ever sleep?

[TurtleMaster4]

^ do u ever sleep?

Ha! You call that a comeback!?!? I ain't no comeback master, but i know when one is bad! And that my friend, was beyond bad, it was terrible..... or worse!!!


And you know that funny thing is, you posted this more later in the night than i posted my comment! Oh Mr. Turtle! When will you learn? :tlol:

[Vincent]

well i think the turtles r not that dark. at least they have brothers. batman has no family.
I take it you haven't read the Mirage comics.
The attempted rape of Tang Shen? Yogi murdering Oroku Nagi? Splinter training the turtles for the sole purpose of murdering Nagi's brother? The turtles cutting enemies' arms off? I could go on. There's some dark stuff in there.

[Candy Kappa]

Now I'm picturing Yogi Bear in a murderous rampage

[Vincent]

Now I'm picturing Yogi Bear in a murderous rampage
Yogi Bear would be one of those things that's probably not like Batman.
Although I suspect I'd probably watch it.

[Candy Kappa]

There's the Terror Bears :P

I'd love to see them appear in the new TMNT show

[ToTheNines]

So, there was the comic, then there was the show, then there was the comic based on the show, then there was the movie trilogy, then a Japanese miniseries, then another show, then yet another show, then a comic based on that show, then another movie, and a movie based on two shows, and now there's a new comic and there's gonna be a new show and then a movie reboot.

You have a way with words, heh.

But yes there is a decent parallel.

Mirage Comics : Batman/Detective Comics
Fred Wolf Cartoon : Adam West Show
Archie Adventures Comics : Silver Age Batman Comics
Live Action Triology : First 3 Movies
Next Mutation : Batman & Robin (movie)
4kids Cartoon : Batman TAS
Fast Forward : Batman Beyond
Nickelodeon Cartoon : Brave & The Bold/Beware The Batman
IDW Comics : New 52 Comics

It gets a little muddled beyond that, I guess the 07 movie could kinda be the equivalent to "The Batman". Still hoping Turtles can get a "Batman Begins" trilogy.

[Genesis]

Even more of a parallel between 2k3 and Batman: TAS. They were both individually used as the basis and primary example for animation textbooks. They're both extremely respected within the medium, it seems.

The difference beween Fast Forward and Batman Beyond is that Beyond totally worked, beyond all reasoning. Just by its pemise, it doesn't sound like anything special, but man, was that a well done show.

Now, we just need a TMNT equivalent to DC's recent animated movies, like Under the Red Hood.

[Mr.Turtle]

Yogi bear is awesome. why the movie sucks so much?

[Vincent]

Now, we just need a TMNT equivalent to DC's recent animated movies, like Under the Red Hood.
I completely agree with this. I'd love to see that happen. Question is how likely Viacom is to make that happen.

[Mr.Turtle]

yeah that d be great Under the Red Hood is awesome!

[Cipher]

While I totally agree, I thought this parallel had been evident for years.

Anyway, yeah, it's part of why I'm kind of welcoming the 1987-inspired take the Nick show seems to have. I'm ready for that version of Turtles to come back for a little while.

Now, we just need a TMNT equivalent to DC's recent animated movies, like Under the Red Hood. Actually, I'd say the first thing we need would be a high-profile, audience-pleasing version of the "darker" Turtles. That's probably the biggest difference between the two franchises. As fans, we've seen the ebb and flow, but nothing other than a silly TMNT has ever really been promoted; we've never had our Tim Burton movie. (A new movie and the greater availability of Mirage and IDW trades are a step in the right direction though, finally.)

Even more of a parallel between 2k3 and Batman: TAS. They were both individually used as the basis and primary example for animation textbooks. They're both extremely respected within the medium, it seems.
Also, wait, what? Like, actual textbooks?

[Mr.Turtle]

^how can u be both dark n high profile?

[Vincent]

^how can u be both dark n high profile?
Batman Begins is dark and high profile. Hell, compared to the 1960s TV show, Tim Burton's Batman was dark and high profile. High profile meaning widely marketed, widely seen and widely respected in its time.

I think the way to pull that off with TMNT is probably to make a movie that takes more or less the tone of the Mirage comics, and introduces the Technodrome, Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang. That way, the general public will get the elements they expect, in a context that introduces to them the tone of the original comic. I've heard lots of people say of the first movie "yeah, it was cool, but I wanted to see the Technodrome". So I'd say the smartest thing is to deliver that chocolate, with a nice creamy center of emotional realism and well done violence.

[Mr.Turtle]

is he? but he is very low profile most of the time.

[Vincent]

is he? but he is very low profile most of the time.
High profile project, not high profile character. Are you trolling, or is this a reading comprehension thing?

[Mr.Turtle]

was that u who said "high profile dark turtles"?

[Vincent]

was that u who said "high profile dark turtles"?
No, but I understood what it meant. The turtles wouldn't be high profile, but they would be in a high profile movie.

[Mr.Turtle]

can i freak out now?

[Vincent]

can i freak out now?
If you'd like.

[Xav]

The attempted rape of Tang Shen? It seemed like Nagi was trying to kill her not rape her.

[shezcrafti]

I mean I didn't just say ALL FOUR OF THE TURTLES seemed to have a bit of a crush on April. So, no, not Raph.

I disagree. I think especially Raph had a crush on April.

[Slade]

I disagree. I think especially Raph had a crush on April.

He did. I just had to be a smartass for someone.

[Vincent]

It seemed like Nagi was trying to kill her not rape her.
The way I remember it, that was after she refused him. I might be misremembering, it has been a while.

[Genesis]

Also, wait, what? Like, actual textbooks?Yep, actual college books used as animators' curriculum in the Art Institutes. I don't know the titles to either of them (I'm a video photographer, not an animator), but each book used one of the respective cartoons as reference throughout the entire thing.

[Mona_Lisa]

He did. I just had to be a smartass for someone.

He was asking for it,:twink:Lol!!!!


I'm really excited about the Nick. Turtles! I sort of wish April was older, but its not a real big deal to me.
I don't mind at all that Donatello has a crush on april. As others have said, In the first three movies they all had a crush on her.... I mean, they are GUYS and this was the first girl they'd ever talked to!!!! It makes since they would have a crush on her.

[Mr.Turtle]

There's the Terror Bears :P

I'd love to see them appear in the new TMNT show

Terror Bears d be a good reference or cross over.

i can see mikey d go " can we keep them can we keep them?" n hug his fav terror bear to sleep.

raph n casey d get a load of cool punch bags for themselves too. it d be so funny to c big guys like raph n casey horsing around with violent bears. :lol:

don d be busying studying bear samples that got beaten n teared apart by raph n casey.

i like it when casey joins the turtles to do this n that together with them coz its like they got 1 more bro. a human version of raph around.:lol:

[1984TMNT]

Batman Begins is dark and high profile. Hell, compared to the 1960s TV show, Tim Burton's Batman was dark and high profile. High profile meaning widely marketed, widely seen and widely respected in its time.

I think the way to pull that off with TMNT is probably to make a movie that takes more or less the tone of the Mirage comics, and introduces the Technodrome, Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang. That way, the general public will get the elements they expect, in a context that introduces to them the tone of the original comic. I've heard lots of people say of the first movie "yeah, it was cool, but I wanted to see the Technodrome". So I'd say the smartest thing is to deliver that chocolate, with a nice creamy center of emotional realism and well done violence.

Couldn't agree more. I've been saying the same thing since 2005. :tsmile: I never focused on the technodrome being included, but heck, why not?

[Cipher]

Yep, actual college books used as animators' curriculum in the Art Institutes. I don't know the titles to either of them (I'm a video photographer, not an animator), but each book used one of the respective cartoons as reference throughout the entire thing.Wow, that's really cool. Someone should get some pages up on this site; I'd love to see them.

I totally believe it though. B:TAS was groundbreaking on several levels, and certain episodes of the 4Kids Turtles had amazing fight choreography and weight.

[thelouisguy]

but not that dark...?
The Turtles should be dark.

You have a way with words, heh.

But yes there is a decent parallel.

Mirage Comics : Batman/Detective Comics
Fred Wolf Cartoon : Adam West Show
Archie Adventures Comics : Silver Age Batman Comics
Live Action Triology : First 3 Movies
Next Mutation : Batman & Robin (movie)
4kids Cartoon : Batman TAS
Fast Forward : Batman Beyond
Nickelodeon Cartoon : Brave & The Bold/Beware The Batman
IDW Comics : New 52 Comics

It gets a little muddled beyond that, I guess the 07 movie could kinda be the equivalent to "The Batman".
Great parallel.

Still hoping Turtles can get a "Batman Begins" trilogy.
Yes!

[Vincent]

I don't mind at all that Donatello has a crush on april. As others have said, In the first three movies they all had a crush on her.... I mean, they are GUYS and this was the first girl they'd ever talked to!!!! It makes since they would have a crush on her.
They're not warm blooded, mammal, human guys. They're turtles. Turtles lay eggs, and don't have the instinct and biological imperative of getting attracted to humans. To say that it makes sense for them to be attracted to a human seems a bit of a stretch to me. It's Nickelodeon's property (they bought it, fair and square), and they can do whatever they want with it (even if it goes against the ground rules Peter Laird laid down for the 2k3 show and 2k7 movie), but I wouldn't go so far as to say it makes sense. Then again, it wouldn't be the first example of interspecies attraction. Fred Wolf had a thing between Mikey and a Neutrino from Dimension X, and I don't remember the details, but I think Archie had some kind of romance between Raphael and Ninjara (who was some kind of anthropomorphic fox). Maybe the mutagen contains humanoid (or in some cases neutrinoid or vulpinoid) hormones.

[Jester]

I know this video is all about Batman, but the way Bob describes the 90's Bat-fanboys and their view of Batman, struck me as something someone could pull a parallel from concerning the TMNT:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/6041-Batman-Revisited-Part-4

[CyberCubed]

TMNT Movie 1 = Batman 1989

Ninja Turtles reboot = Batman Begins

[thelouisguy]

TMNT Movie 1 = Batman 1989

Ninja Turtles reboot = Batman Begins

One can only hope. :tthumbsu:

[Mr.Turtle]

The Turtles should be dark.


Great parallel.


Yes!

i agree the turtles r dark but not that dark coz they got each other, their bros. batman's alone.

[Candy Kappa]

i agree the turtles r dark but not that dark coz they got each other, their bros. batman's alone.

Yup Batman is totally alone with his Butler Alfred Pennyworth, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, Barbara Gordon, Stephanie Brown, Ace. Justice League, Outsiders, Batman Inc.

So alone, brooding alone... Yeah.

[Mr.Turtle]

friends, even best buddies are different frm bros you grow up with. one day u got ur own bros u ill understand.

[Candy Kappa]

friends, even best buddies are different frm bros you grow up with. one day u got ur own bros u ill understand.

how about sons?

Damian Wayne is Bruce's son. Also most of the Robins are either wards or adopted.

[Mr.Turtle]

but that's different frm bros. u dont hav bros u wont understand wut im saying. one day u got ur own bros u ill understand.

[Jester]

How can you "got ur own bros"? As you said, you grow up with "bros"....you can't acquire them as adults.

[Mr.Turtle]

u can get ur own bros by asking some frm ur parents or colon urself.

[Genesis]

Maybe the mutagen contains humanoid hormones.Actually... I have a rather extensive hypothesis about that. Most people accept that the formation of the ooze was all just a big mistake, from the Utroms crash-landing on Earth to the accidental exposure of an unknown mixture of discarded chemicals to a series of irradiated waves. However, I feel that there may have been ulterior motives behind the Utroms' earlier, crude experiments.

The ooze seems to do little more than make organisms larger and (usually) bipedal. It might be possible that prior to the technology of the Utroms' exosuits being available (let's forget for a moment that they had no problem making them in 2k3's feudal Japan), the Utroms had interest in making themselves more humanlike in appearance. It's some interesting speculation to say that maybe there were some Utroms who didn't expect to make the transmat to get off the Earth and instead conducted experiments to make themselves - in essence - human.

For all we know, the ooze could have been developed (accidentally or otherwise) by just studying humans, and the radiation was as accidental as is generally considered canon.

There's one other thing that the ooze does, though. It rapidly enhances the intelligence of its subjects (Tokka and Rahzar notwithstanding). It might be that the ooze was considered (by some presumably impatient Utroms) for use on indigenous humans to potentially help them develop the technology the Utroms needed for the transmat's development more quickly.

In either case, assuming all my assumptions are at all valid, one can assume that the leaders of the stranded Utroms forbade its use for anything but a swift disposal, and we all know the story from there.

[Vincent]

Actually... I have a rather extensive hypothesis about that. Most people accept that the formation of the ooze was all just a big mistake, from the Utroms crash-landing on Earth to the accidental exposure of an unknown mixture of discarded chemicals to a series of irradiated waves. However, I feel that there may have been ulterior motives behind the Utroms' earlier, crude experiments.

The ooze seems to do little more than make organisms larger and (usually) bipedal. It might be possible that prior to the technology of the Utroms' exosuits being available (let's forget for a moment that they had no problem making them in 2k3's feudal Japan), the Utroms had interest in making themselves more humanlike in appearance. It's some interesting speculation to say that maybe there were some Utroms who didn't expect to make the transmat to get off the Earth and instead conducted experiments to make themselves - in essence - human.

For all we know, the ooze could have been developed (accidentally or otherwise) by just studying humans, and the radiation was as accidental as is generally considered canon.

There's one other thing that the ooze does, though. It rapidly enhances the intelligence of its subjects (Tokka and Rahzar notwithstanding). It might be that the ooze was considered (by some presumably impatient Utroms) for use on indigenous humans to potentially help them develop the technology the Utroms needed for the transmat's development more quickly.

In either case, assuming all my assumptions are at all valid, one can assume that the leaders of the stranded Utroms forbade its use for anything but a swift disposal, and we all know the story from there.
That's an interesting take on it. However, my observation was around the idea of turtles being attracted to mammals, which I don't remember happening in the Mirage comics and 4Kids series, which are the only places where I remember the mutagen explicitly having anything to do with the Utrom. I don't know what the explanation for the mutagen will be in the Nickelodeon series, though (the Utrom hasn't been announced, though the Kraang has, which might just be an Utrom splinter group - no pun intended - for all I know). I wasn't talking about the Utrom-made mutagen. I was talking about the mutagen from the Fred Wolf/Archie universe(s), the TGRI ooze from the live-action movies, and whatever ooze they've got in the upcoming Nickelodeon version.

[Candy Kappa]

but that's different frm bros. u dont hav bros u wont understand wut im saying. one day u got ur own bros u ill understand.

I have two brothers and a sister, I think I know of family ties and bonds

[Vincent]

I have two brothers and a sister, I think I know of family ties and bonds

Furthermore, having "bros" has nothing to do with a story being dark. Four brothers running around killing their enemies isn't automatically less dark than one guy running around trying not to kill his enemies.

[ToTheNines]

Actually... I have a rather extensive hypothesis about that. Most people accept that the formation of the ooze was all just a big mistake, from the Utroms crash-landing on Earth to the accidental exposure of an unknown mixture of discarded chemicals to a series of irradiated waves. However, I feel that there may have been ulterior motives behind the Utroms' earlier, crude experiments.

I thought it caused animals to become humanoid because it was a by product of the Utroms synthetic human skin that envelops their exosuits.

[Genesis]

It could very well be! At any rate, that's very much in the direction of my point. Vincent's hormonal hypothesis made me think of it, and I had to get it out. It's something I've thought about for a long time, mow.

[Mr.Turtle]

with bros, u can hav alot warm moments, even in a dark story.

[Vincent]

with bros, u can hav alot warm moments, even in a dark story.
What's your point?
Batman can have warm moments too, but that too is beside the point. A story being dark doesn't have to mean an absence of warm moments. The original point I raised was that both Batman and TMNT are properties that can work in both dark and goofy interpretations (as well as combinations of the two). The possibility of "warm moments" doesn't negate that.

[Newton Gimmick]

They're not warm blooded, mammal, human guys. They're turtles. Turtles lay eggs, and don't have the instinct and biological imperative of getting attracted to humans.

Nor do Turtles have the instinct or the imperative to learn kung-fu or seek out revenge for their sensei/father who also just happens to be a rat.

So that whole line of rationality sort of goes out the window right at the Mutant Ninja part.

[Vincent]

Nor do Turtles have the instinct or the imperative to learn kung-fu or seek out revenge for their sensei/father who also just happens to be a rat.

So that whole line of rationality sort of goes out the window right at the Mutant Ninja part.
If you look again, you'll see that I was responding to someone who was suggesting that it's practically a given for teenage mutant turtles to be attracted to human girls.
There is something very useful in storytelling called internal logic. It doesn't have to be realistic that turtles mutate anthropomorphic features, because an explanation for this is given in the form of a completely made up mutagenic ooze. This isn't hard sci-fi. Obviously there's no such thing as an ooze that gives turtles anthropomorphic form and intelligence. But within the context of the story, it's established that this is what the ooze does (exactly how it does this varies between versions of the story - sometimes it mutates features of the last creature one was in contact with, sometimes it's strictly an anthropomorphizing effect on anything it touches), but this effect doesn't by itself imply that a cold-blooded reptile will be able to feel attraction toward a warm-blooded mammal. All I'm saying is that it's not a given that a mutated anthropomorphic turtle will naturally have the ability to get a crush on a human, because the mutation alone doesn't inherently explain it (though an explanation could of course be created by writers just as easily as the ooze itself was). I wasn't saying it's impossible within the context of the story for a turtle to get a crush on a human; I was merely saying there's no reason to assume by default that a mutant turtle would be capable of getting a crush on a human, just as it's not a given you'd be capable of getting a crush on a talking dog.

[Mr.Turtle]

What's your point?
Batman can have warm moments too, but that too is beside the point. A story being dark doesn't have to mean an absence of warm moments. The original point I raised was that both Batman and TMNT are properties that can work in both dark and goofy interpretations (as well as combinations of the two). The possibility of "warm moments" doesn't negate that.

my points tmnts not as dark as batman.

[Mona_Lisa]

They're not warm blooded, mammal, human guys. They're turtles. Turtles lay eggs, and don't have the instinct and biological imperative of getting attracted to humans. To say that it makes sense for them to be attracted to a human seems a bit of a stretch to me. It's Nickelodeon's property (they bought it, fair and square), and they can do whatever they want with it (even if it goes against the ground rules Peter Laird laid down for the 2k3 show and 2k7 movie), but I wouldn't go so far as to say it makes sense. Then again, it wouldn't be the first example of interspecies attraction. Fred Wolf had a thing between Mikey and a Neutrino from Dimension X, and I don't remember the details, but I think Archie had some kind of romance between Raphael and Ninjara (who was some kind of anthropomorphic fox). Maybe the mutagen contains humanoid (or in some cases neutrinoid or vulpinoid) hormones.

I don't mind your opinion is differnt, thats one of the cool things about this form... learning how differnt people think.
I like to put myself in the characters shoes.... The turtles in this case, don't you think they would want "A mate"? (Trying to keep this clean for kids). The turtles aren't like real turtles anymore, They talk, think, feel, and have ninja skills. So while there is no perfect match for them would they have more in common with a Person, or a turtle....
I think part of (a small part) of the turtle story is they *want* a mate, are interested in human girls, but NO human girl is lookn for a turtle boy friend. They are alone, sad really. No, I don't want them to "hook up" with a person...
I think the first three movies, and 80's cartoon support this beleif... Peter Laird, and Keven Eastmans turtles may not.
In the 4kids toon I think I recall Don crushing on an alien... But not for sure:twink:

[Vincent]

I think part of (a small part) of the turtle story is they *want* a mate, are interested in human girls, but NO human girl is lookn for a turtle boy friend.
That raises the question, though...how would a turtle mate with a human? Humans don't lay eggs. It's a very different biology.
I don't have any problem imagining the mutant turtles as asexual. If the ooze was radioactive, it could very well have left them sterile. Also, there's the whole gene splicing thing. When a horse is mated with a donkey, the offspring - the mule - is often sterile. And if the turtles have been genetically altered with humanoid genetics, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to imagine that they might be sterile as a result of it. So that's two possible reasons for them to be sterile, right there.
That's not to say they have to be sterile; all I'm saying is that it's not a given that they would be capable of attraction, and it's certainly not a given that they would be capable of attraction to humans.
However, Nickelodeon has chosen to take it in that direction, and that's ultimately up to them since they own the property (and it does create an opportunity to explore things that many teenagers go through), but I wouldn't say it's any more believable than the other alternative.

[Candy Kappa]

That raises the question, though...how would a turtle mate with a human?

Same way a Humanoid Turtle "mates" with an Alien Humaniod "Protoceratops"

[Mr.Turtle]

^maybe the same way retards mate with lizards...

[Genesis]

That cloaca sure would make things difficult and plain confusing for the partner; that's for sure. I think we've gone too far into thinking about it, at this point.

[Mona_Lisa]

^maybe the same way retards mate with lizards...

Should I be mad???

Edit:
Ok Mr.Turtle, I've had my cup of coffee and calmed down.....So I decided Not to kill you!!! Have a nice day!

[ninjafowlkes8705]

You have a way with words, heh.

But yes there is a decent parallel.

Mirage Comics : Batman/Detective Comics
Fred Wolf Cartoon : Adam West Show
Archie Adventures Comics : Silver Age Batman Comics
Live Action Triology : First 3 Movies
Next Mutation : Batman & Robin (movie)
4kids Cartoon : Batman TAS
Fast Forward : Batman Beyond
Nickelodeon Cartoon : Brave & The Bold/Beware The Batman
IDW Comics : New 52 Comics

It gets a little muddled beyond that, I guess the 07 movie could kinda be the equivalent to "The Batman". Still hoping Turtles can get a "Batman Begins" trilogy.

you forgot back to the sewers and the batman you should do it like

Mirage Comics : Batman/Detective Comics
Fred Wolf Cartoon : Adam West Show
Archie Adventures Comics : Silver Age Batman Comics
Live Action Triology : First 3 Movies
Next Mutation : Batman & Robin (movie)
4kids Cartoon : Batman TAS/The Batman
Fast Forward : Batman Beyond
TMNT and Back to the Sewers:The Batman
Nickelodeon Cartoon : Brave & The Bold/Beware The Batman
IDW Comics : New 52 Comics