I like the Nick toon so far, but...

[MothraLeo]

I am an old skool fan. While I first got into the TMNT because of the 80's cartoon, I quickly discovered how awesome the Mirage comics were. I got into it just before "Sons of the Silent Age" came out (issue 22 or so). But I quickly realized, even at that young age, the effect the cartoon had on the comics. When I picked up the Return to New York series I read a note from Eastman or Laird that basically said they had to nerf the comics because they didn't want little kids who watched the cartoon reading the comic and freaking out over killings and swearing and such. I immediately realized how detrimental the cartoon was to my beloved comics, and have since despised that cartoon.

I only discovered the 2k3 cartoon last fall, and absolutely fell in love with it, for reasons you can prolly guess (though I stopped watching after 3 episodes of Flash Forward). Then after discovering Laird's blog I was pleased to find out that he has very similar feelings about the whole thing, and that the 2k3 series was his attempt to right the ship and give the Turtles a more appropriate run. Despite the cringe-worthy seasons at the end, the 2k3 series and Turtles Forever are the perfect send off of the co-creator. Turtles Forever is the PERFECT TMNT movie and cross-over, giving PL a chance to poke some fun at the 80's toon that basically derailed one of the best comics of all time.

So my point here is that while I am enjoying the Nick toon so far (they have some killer shows! Korra and Avatar are amazing) I can tell that the legacy is being tarnished a bit here. IDW comics are pretty awesome, as well, but it too has brought back some lame stuff from the 80's.

Thankfully it is not totally kid-oriented, but it is still a bit sad that we are bringing back some of the lame-ness from the past, and now that I see Slash is coming back, I am afraid that this toon will be going downhill very soon. :tcry:

[Luckyday]

I am an old skool fan. While I first got into the TMNT because of the 80's cartoon, I quickly discovered how awesome the Mirage comics were. I got into it just before "Sons of the Silent Age" came out (issue 22 or so). But I quickly realized, even at that young age, the effect the cartoon had on the comics. When I picked up the Return to New York series I read a note from Eastman or Laird that basically said they had to nerf the comics because they didn't want little kids who watched the cartoon reading the comic and freaking out over killings and swearing and such. I immediately realized how detrimental the cartoon was to my beloved comics, and have since despised that cartoon.

I only discovered the 2k3 cartoon last fall, and absolutely fell in love with it, for reasons you can prolly guess (though I stopped watching after 3 episodes of Flash Forward). Then after discovering Laird's blog I was pleased to find out that he has very similar feelings about the whole thing, and that the 2k3 series was his attempt to right the ship and give the Turtles a more appropriate run. Despite the cringe-worthy seasons at the end, the 2k3 series and Turtles Forever are the perfect send off of the co-creator. Turtles Forever is the PERFECT TMNT movie and cross-over, giving PL a chance to poke some fun at the 80's toon that basically derailed one of the best comics of all time.

So my point here is that while I am enjoying the Nick toon so far (they have some killer shows! Korra and Avatar are amazing) I can tell that the legacy is being tarnished a bit here. IDW comics are pretty awesome, as well, but it too has brought back some lame stuff from the 80's.

Thankfully it is not totally kid-oriented, but it is still a bit sad that we are bringing back some of the lame-ness from the past, and now that I see Slash is coming back, I am afraid that this toon will be going downhill very soon. :tcry:

What points do you feel that the current show has failed do well?

[Powder]

Who cares? Your opinions aren't facts. Just because certain things aren't for you doesn't mean they're a blemish on the 'legacy'.

[Bauer536]

I don't see it going downhill. While it is something that we always fear when another season comes on television, I'm still excited. While there were some lame factors in the OT, I think Nieli and Nickelodeon are doing their best to make the lame more appealing. Somehow, everything that was once lame are turned into something new and cool. OT Shredder is nothing compared to 2k12 Shredder.:tcool: Leatherhead is not a villain that dresses up like a gangster and leans more toward the Mirage Leatherhead. It's basically a show that incorporates the good, the bad, and the ugly into something refreshing, entertaining, and just so darn good.:tsmile:

[The Stryker]

The new show existing saved the Ninja Turtle franchise from dying a slow and painful death.

So I don't know about tarnishing any legacies.

[Jester]

Andrew, why you make a 2nd account?

[Cowabunga Carl]

We all have opinions, but to state them like fact and tell others who may like something that it is tarnishing the legacy isn't the way to make friends.

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again, not everyone will like everything about TMNT. Just cause there are new versions or takes on them doesn't take away from what you like. If you prefer Mirage and 2k3 nothing is stopping you from rereading or watching those. 2k12 is breathing life back into the franchise that we all love.

We have to be realistic when Nick bought the TMNT the franchise was dying a slow death. Liard could not capture the magic that catapulted the TMNT into the spot light by doing it his way. I am grateful that he and Kevin Eastmen made the TMNT but just cause they created it didn't mean they always knew what was best for it.

[CyberCubed]

Where the hell did this guy get the impression the Mirage comics were "nerfed" because of the cartoon? WTF?

[JTH]

As a fan of this franchise \/ \/ \/, I hear this bastardized/tarnished legacy thing a lot.
http://gordonandthewhale.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Picture-35.png
And far too often I hear the argument that is basically translated to, "It's not meant for me, so it sucks."

When people just aren't looking at the bigger picture, sometimes things just need to be changed to bring in a new audience. There are many 80s shows that are basically dead and disappeared, that example I showed despite detest from some of it's original fan base is now more popular than it's ever been.

Sometimes changes must be made, even if they're changes some don't like. It's about bringing in new fans; cause without new fans, franchises die.

[CyberCubed]

I'd still like to know where the hell this guy got the impression the Mirage comics were kiddified because of the cartoon.

That right there should tell you this guy has no clue what he's talking about.

[JTH]

I'd still like to know where the hell this guy got the impression the Mirage comics were kiddified because of the cartoon.

That right there should tell you this guy has no clue what he's talking about.
I get where you're coming from, because by that logic, if Laird and Eastman were worried about kids who watched the cartoon to see the violence, the first live action movie would never have been made.

[CyberCubed]

I get where you're coming from, because by that logic, if Laird and Eastman were worried about kids who watched the cartoon to see the violence, the first live action movie would never have been made.

And the fact that the Mirage comics were never toned down.

[Konchadunga]

That you despise a cartoon you used to love because of the effect it had on the source, already isn't fair, because the cartoon's creators never intended any malice; meanwhile the Mirage series creators could have prevented that at many turns. They could have refused to license the cartoon. They could have gotten more proactive in directing the cartoon to ensure it was more loyal to the Mirage series. They could have steadfastly refused to nerf the Mirage series; cartoon recruits be damned.

However, as has been said, I don't see any evidence that the Mirage series was nerfed, anyway. It certainly didn't stay as "dark" as its first issue a lot of the time, but then, that issue was originally a one-off with a ridiculous concept stuck in a typical Miller-esque story, because surely it wouldn't sell anyway, so why not? That it did necessitated Eastman and Laird giving the series more personality, more variety, and more ethical depth, because one long cycle of vengeance and killing would make for a pretty dull series. They still did plenty of mature stories, such as "The Path."

I want to see a copy of this note from Eastman and Laird, where they said they had to nerf it, but even if it really exists and they did go ahead and nerf it, that's bull. They didn't have to; if they did it that's because they wanted more money.

[TurtleTitan97]

Thankfully it is not totally kid-oriented, but it is still a bit sad that we are bringing back some of the lame-ness from the past, and now that I see Slash is coming back, I am afraid that this toon will be going downhill very soon. :tcry:

Say what? How the heck does bringing Slash into this series a sign that this show will go downhill? Slash is a pretty awesome character. At least he doesn't look anything similar to this abomination:

http://pmo.bumpheli.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/806672-slash_kitbash_cartoon_viacomicvinedotcom.jpg

Try and have alittle faith in the writers who work on this show, they've been doing a great job, IMO.

[CyberCubed]

The thread starter is delusional. He hates a cartoon based on something false that never happened and he blames those characters for something that never happened?

[Konchadunga]

If you hate the Fred Wolf series, then I don't expect you to like this show in the long run, although I guess it depends to some extent on why you hate it. If it's the slaptsticky, junk throwing sort of fight scenes from FW that you hated, then you can be reasonably sure you won't see such things here. If you expect a situation where Shredder has a sympathetic side and Splinter has some fault of his own in the feud, then you may well be disappointed. If you expect a lot of blood, well, don't. Finally, though I resent this myself, you probably shouldn't expect an incredibly strong story arc that always satisfies your questions and then poses new ones right away, though to be fair, Mirage also had plenty of filler stories.

[Warboss74]

If you're going to blame the cartoon for any negative effect on the comic, it would make more sense to blame it for pulling Kevin and Peter away from the comics for 3 years after Return to New York. Although, I doubt we get City at War without how hectic the franchise got.

[NinjaPug]

So, you liked the 87 toon enough to check out the source material? After reading that you start to hate the thing that got you interested in the property to begin with?

I assume you realize that without the 87 toon you probably would've never heard of the franchise.

[CyberCubed]

I love how people have double standards. TMNT can't have a kids cartoon, yet Batman/Spiderman, etc. can all have kids cartoons, movies aimed at adults, and comic books all at the same time and nobody cares.

Yet if TMNT has a kids cartoon people think its something different? WTF>

[Konchadunga]

Almost everything can have different incarnations for different people. Whether all incarnations will be liked is the point of contention. But though there's plenty of good reasons for a Mirage fan to hate the Fred Wolf show, I don't think that MothraLeo's is one of them.

[Martin]

I love how people have double standards. TMNT can't have a kids cartoon, yet Batman/Spiderman, etc. can all have kids cartoons, movies aimed at adults, and comic books all at the same time and nobody cares.

Yet if TMNT has a kids cartoon people think its something different? WTF>

I think the thing about the double standards isn't so much about not having tmnt meant for kids, but rather how a lot of times things that are meant for more mature audiences have to be toned down in case kids happen to read it. Personally I'd love to see grittier and darker turtles, but I understand that the demographic that wants something like that probably isn't that big.

[Konchadunga]

For me, dark and gritty is never synonymous with good; though not with bad, either. I like my turtles using their blades and willing to kill when necessary, but ultimately I prefer Peter Laird's fantasy kitchen sink take on the Mirage series to Kevin Eastman's urban, Miller-esque take. I prefer the stuff with the Fugitoid, aliens, Renet, etc to stories where the Turtles are always in New York only doing New Yorker/ninja things. Above all else, I think TMNT should be fun and outlandish.

[MothraLeo]

Thanks for the replies! I will get to individual questions in a bit (I'm at work), but I want mention that I think some of you may be reading more into my comments than what I wrote. I love the Nick toon so far. Imentioned a couple times that I enjoyed it.

I think I will walk back a bit from the idea that the Legacy is being "tarnished," though. I really meant that from the perspective of PL. I certainly don't mean to speak for him. But I asked him about 2k3 and he did say it was the best incarnation that tried for the spirit of the comics. He also mentioned he Didn't care for some of the things he had seen about the Nick toon or IDW, but he was quick to mention he hadn't seen any episodes or read any issues at that time.

I will get to more later, I should get back to work. :)

[CyberCubed]

I think I will walk back a bit from the idea that the Legacy is being "tarnished," though. I really meant that from the perspective of PL. I certainly don't mean to speak for him. But I asked him about 2k3 and he did say it was the best incarnation that tried for the spirit of the comics. He also mentioned he Didn't care for some of the things he had seen about the Nick toon or IDW, but he was quick to mention he hadn't seen any episodes or read any issues at that time.

Peter Laird is only one creator of TMNT. He generally wants things done "by the books" with only a few alterations like the 4kids series did. Kevin Eastman allows other writers to have more freedom with the franchise.

I also can't comprehend why you're basing what you should like on what PL likes. Since when is someone incapable of forming their own opinion?

[Electric]

This series is just another incarnation that appeals to some, and not to other, it just depends on preference and what everyone wants in TMNT. For me, i really didnt care for the original tv series, it wasnt serious enough. The 2k3 series i liked more, but it was almost too serious and dark for my tastes, and got out of hand towards the end. This new series i think balances out most of the TMNT incarnations and to me, is the best.

[Luckyday]

For me, dark and gritty is never synonymous with good; though not with bad, either. I like my turtles using their blades and willing to kill when necessary, but ultimately I prefer Peter Laird's fantasy kitchen sink take on the Mirage series to Kevin Eastman's urban, Miller-esque take. I prefer the stuff with the Fugitoid, aliens, Renet, etc to stories where the Turtles are always in New York only doing New Yorker/ninja things. Above all else, I think TMNT should be fun and outlandish.

Ok, I'm confuse. I always thought that Kevin was the fantasical and that Peter was one that wrote the more grounded stories in the TMNT.

[Konchadunga]

I forgot where I read that, but if I recall correctly, Laird was a big Scifi buff, while Eastman was the one who was into other indie comics; particularly Frank Miller. I think it can be found just by Googling "Kevin Eastman Interview," though.

[Refractive Reflections]

...Say what? :-?

"How detrimental the cartoon was to the comics"? It did just the opposite, it helped give the Mirage comics a surge of popularity and brought TMNT to the mainstream.

I can understand people not enjoying the direction of the 80s toon in terms of its action and comedy from a hindsight perspective or personal taste, especially in comparison with the other versions, but it was the 80s and its unfair to be excessively critical of the series. Censorship back then was FAR more stringent, and the cartoon was already being considered as too "violent" by soccer moms at that time period because kids were acting out the fighting scenes and hurting themselves with homemade nunchucks. Even the word "ninja" was deemed too much overseas in Britain.
It's far too easy to complain about the past and everything that was "wrong" with it, but one has to look at events and culture from that time to have the proper historical perspective of that time period, and that has to be applied here with the OT.

...And the 80s cartoon changing Mirage? That's a pretty extreme statement to claim, you'll have to give some supporting examples and their timing with the cartoon to make some of these Technodrome users even listen to your argument.

[The Sewer Lord]

...Say what? :-?

"How detrimental the cartoon was to the comics"? It did just the opposite, it helped give the Mirage comics a surge of popularity and brought TMNT to the mainstream.

I can understand people not enjoying the direction of the 80s toon in terms of its action and comedy from a hindsight perspective or personal taste, especially in comparison with the other versions, but it was the 80s and its unfair to be excessively critical of the series. Censorship back then was FAR more stringent, and the cartoon was already being considered as too "violent" by soccer moms at that time period because kids were acting out the fighting scenes and hurting themselves with homemade nunchucks. Even the word "ninja" was deemed too much overseas in Britain.
It's far too easy to complain about the past and everything that was "wrong" with it, but one has to look at events and culture from that time to have the proper historical perspective of that time period, and that has to be applied here with the OT.

...And the 80s cartoon changing Mirage? That's a pretty extreme statement to claim, you'll have to give some supporting examples and their timing with the cartoon to make some of these Technodrome users even listen to your argument.

Completely agree.

[Konchadunga]

Censorship back then was FAR more stringent, and the cartoon was already being considered as too "violent" by soccer moms at that time period because kids were acting out the fighting scenes and hurting themselves with homemade nunchucks.

Seriously; can somebody explain to me how the shell "soccer mom" came to mean "conservative?" That slang term perturbs me every time it appears online.

[Refractive Reflections]

Seriously; can somebody explain to me how the shell "soccer mom" came to mean "conservative?" That slang term perturbs me every time it appears online.

Really...? You'll have to explain how it exactly "perturbs" you, just curious... :ohwell:

I don't think it necessarily means "conservative" (in terms of politics) but possibly, more or less overprotective and/or overbearing mothers of their children which could be seen as conservative.

Thank goodness for Wikipedia to explain it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom

[Shark_Blade]

Andrew, why you make a 2nd account?

Lmao! Oh dear, my poor sides.. :tlol:

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, this is just all kinds of stupid. The new cartoon isn't tarnishing the legacy of TMNT. If anything, it's bringing the Turtles to a new generation of fans. And who cares what PL thinks? If he doesn't like it, then maybe he shouldn't have sold it to Nick. But guess what? He did so he really doesn't have a say in what they do.

[CyberCubed]

This thread needs to be closed. It would be different if there was some sort of valid argument about the Nick show being for kids only, but there isn't.

And despising the OT for somehow damaging the comics? I still can't wrap my head around that one as Mirage ignored the cartoon entirely and didn't use any of its characters.

[Coola Yagami]

This thread needs to be closed. It would be different if there was some sort of valid argument about the Nick show being for kids only, but there isn't.

And despising the OT for somehow damaging the comics? I still can't wrap my head around that one as Mirage ignored the cartoon entirely and didn't use any of its characters.

Why are you always so quick to close threads?

[MothraLeo]

Wow, you guys. I don't know where to begin responding. Am I not allowed to have an opinion here?

First of all, most of the responses aren't even to things I actually say. I have made it clear that I enjoy this show. Very clear, in fact. I only expressed my annoyance that things which were intentionally put to bed (by one of the creators of the whole franchise) are being brought back. I would rather new and interesting characters be brought back than head-scratchers like Slash and Bebop and Rocksteady. If you like the 80's toon, then that is wonderful! You are absolutely entitled, and I would never want to say the things to you which have been said to me already in this young thread. Sheesh. I guess fans of the original comic aren't allowed here? Or can we stay as long as we don't speak ill of the Barney-style TMNT?

I love what this toon has done with lots of it. Shredder is better than 80's version. They have caught on that fans really wanted more of a Leo/Karai arc. Splinter is very interesting. Leatherhead is very well done.

Not so keen on a teenage, psychic April O'Neil, though. And the mutagen is back to the 80's thing. The mutants also always look really, really stupid.

My comment about the nerfing of the comics was based on a note in the back of one of the Return to New York comics. They compared it to Batman (although we have clearly seen that Batman can also be dark in this day and age). This is not really debate here. Peter did not want there to be stuff like "Bodycount" while little kids liked the old toon, and they split up over it. But I FULLY realize that I may not even had known about it if it weren't for the cartoon. Does that mean I can't have an opinion about the objective truth of the effect on the comics, though?

I have so much more to say on this subject, but I'm not sure I will get an honest discourse.

[Martin]

Wow, you guys. I don't know where to begin responding. Am I not allowed to have an opinion here?

I think your problem is how you word things. Example:

The mutants also always look really, really stupid silly

See? Isn't that much nicer? Now try doing that with pretty much everything you wrote.

[CyberCubed]

Wow, you guys. I don't know where to begin responding. Am I not allowed to have an opinion here?

First of all, most of the responses aren't even to things I actually say. I have made it clear that I enjoy this show. Very clear, in fact. I only expressed my annoyance that things which were intentionally put to bed (by one of the creators of the whole franchise) are being brought back. I would rather new and interesting characters be brought back than head-scratchers like Slash and Bebop and Rocksteady. If you like the 80's toon, then that is wonderful! You are absolutely entitled, and I would never want to say the things to you which have been said to me already in this young thread. Sheesh. I guess fans of the original comic aren't allowed here? Or can we stay as long as we don't speak ill of the Barney-style TMNT?

I love what this toon has done with lots of it. Shredder is better than 80's version. They have caught on that fans really wanted more of a Leo/Karai arc. Splinter is very interesting. Leatherhead is very well done.

Not so keen on a teenage, psychic April O'Neil, though. And the mutagen is back to the 80's thing. The mutants also always look really, really stupid.

My comment about the nerfing of the comics was based on a note in the back of one of the Return to New York comics. They compared it to Batman (although we have clearly seen that Batman can also be dark in this day and age). This is not really debate here. Peter did not want there to be stuff like "Bodycount" while little kids liked the old toon, and they split up over it. But I FULLY realize that I may not even had known about it if it weren't for the cartoon. Does that mean I can't have an opinion about the objective truth of the effect on the comics, though?

I have so much more to say on this subject, but I'm not sure I will get an honest discourse.

Why do you call Slash a "silly head scratcher?"

I'm confused as to why you're fine with Nick's mutants or the 4kids characters yet you find Slash silly? What?

And what the hell is "Barney TMNT?" Stop the nonsense.

[Coola Yagami]

I don't see where they're coming from. No kids even knew the comics existed back then. They weren't exactly sitting right next to the latest issue of Spiderman or Batman ya know.

[Coola Yagami]

Why do you call Slash a "silly head scratcher?"

I'm confused as to why you're fine with Nick's mutants or the 4kids characters yet you find Slash silly? What?

And what the hell is "Barney TMNT?" Stop the nonsense.

Have you seen Slash in the 80's cartoon...? And you know the 80's TMNT are super tame compared to what we have today. Even the wannabe Dark Red Sky seasons.

[CyberCubed]

Have you seen Slash in the 80's cartoon...? And you know the 80's TMNT are super tame compared to what we have today. Even the wannabe Dark Red Sky seasons.

Slash's design wasn't good but he was just as crazy in his first appearance.

And tame? The show was all about self parody humor. Him calling it Barney inspired is idiotic. It was still an action show.

[Coola Yagami]

Slash's design wasn't good but he was just as crazy in his first appearance.

And tame? The show was all about self parody humor. Him calling it Barney inspired is idiotic. It was still an action show.

The design was just awful and ruined it. I still don't see why they couldn't have just used a damned black bandana on him.

It was hardly an action show. Past seasons 1 and maybe season 2 anyway.

[MothraLeo]

I think your problem is how you word things. Example:



See? Isn't that much nicer? Now try doing that with pretty much everything you wrote.

I get you. But of all the posts in this thread mine are hardly the ones with a problem of tone.

[Martin]

I get you. But of all the posts in this thread mine are hardly the ones with a problem of tone.

Welcome to the drome

[CyberCubed]

I get you. But of all the posts in this thread mine are hardly the ones with a problem of tone.

The problem is you made incorrect statements saying the cartoon toned down the comics, which is completely untrue. The comics did not change at all because of the show.

And claiming you "despise" the show because you think it made the franchise kiddy is kinda sad. The show is actually more entertaining as an adult than kid.

[Refractive Reflections]

It's not that most of us can't handle honest discourse MothraLeo, but you did have some pretty bold statements to say without even using examples to at least give your position some support.

When I picked up the Return to New York series I read a note from Eastman or Laird that basically said they had to nerf the comics because they didn't want little kids who watched the cartoon reading the comic and freaking out over killings and swearing and such. I immediately realized how detrimental the cartoon was to my beloved comics, and have since despised that cartoon.

You do understand how hypocritical that sounds, right? Not trying to be harsh, but you're hating the thing which first brought your attention to TMNT.

Despite the cringe-worthy seasons at the end, the 2k3 series and Turtles Forever are the perfect send off of the co-creator. Turtles Forever is the PERFECT TMNT movie and cross-over, giving PL a chance to poke some fun at the 80's toon that basically derailed one of the best comics of all time.

"Derailed"? Again, some pretty bold accusations to say.

Thankfully it is not totally kid-oriented, but it is still a bit sad that we are bringing back some of the lame-ness from the past, and now that I see Slash is coming back, I am afraid that this toon will be going downhill very soon. :tcry:
Again...how can those type of words not imply that you, which is safe to assume, despise the OT cartoon far beyond personal taste here.

Thanks for the replies! I will get to individual questions in a bit (I'm at work), but I want mention that I think some of you may be reading more into my comments than what I wrote. I love the Nick toon so far. Imentioned a couple times that I enjoyed it.

I think I will walk back a bit from the idea that the Legacy is being "tarnished," though. I really meant that from the perspective of PL. I certainly don't mean to speak for him. But I asked him about 2k3 and he did say it was the best incarnation that tried for the spirit of the comics. He also mentioned he Didn't care for some of the things he had seen about the Nick toon or IDW, but he was quick to mention he hadn't seen any episodes or read any issues at that time.

I will get to more later, I should get back to work. :)

Now this is a bit confusing, here you said it was from PL's perspective, and that you don't mean to speak for him. Everybody knows PL didn't like the OT, maybe so far to mock the OT in Turtles Forever, but that's always been debatable.


Wow, you guys. I don't know where to begin responding. Am I not allowed to have an opinion here?

First of all, most of the responses aren't even to things I actually say. I have made it clear that I enjoy this show. Very clear, in fact. I only expressed my annoyance that things which were intentionally put to bed (by one of the creators of the whole franchise) are being brought back. I would rather new and interesting characters be brought back than head-scratchers like Slash and Bebop and Rocksteady. If you like the 80's toon, then that is wonderful! You are absolutely entitled, and I would never want to say the things to you which have been said to me already in this young thread. Sheesh. I guess fans of the original comic aren't allowed here? Or can we stay as long as we don't speak ill of the Barney-style TMNT?

I love what this toon has done with lots of it. Shredder is better than 80's version. They have caught on that fans really wanted more of a Leo/Karai arc. Splinter is very interesting. Leatherhead is very well done.

Not so keen on a teenage, psychic April O'Neil, though. And the mutagen is back to the 80's thing. The mutants also always look really, really stupid.

My comment about the nerfing of the comics was based on a note in the back of one of the Return to New York comics. They compared it to Batman (although we have clearly seen that Batman can also be dark in this day and age). This is not really debate here. Peter did not want there to be stuff like "Bodycount" while little kids liked the old toon, and they split up over it. But I FULLY realize that I may not even had known about it if it weren't for the cartoon. Does that mean I can't have an opinion about the objective truth of the effect on the comics, though?

I have so much more to say on this subject, but I'm not sure I will get an honest discourse.

"The mutants looked really stupid". - If you don't like the OT that's completely fine... but its gonna be hard to persuade people of your case when you are consistently bad mouthing the OT beyond your personal taste/preferences here without at least recognizing the limitations of 80s animation and censorship that had a significant contribution in you not enjoying the OT.

"They compared it..." - Who's they now? That needs to be clarified.

"Does that mean I can't..." - Nobody is saying you can't, but you need supportive examples (not just referring to a note on the back of the comics, or the "Bodycount" issue) of just how the OT "ruined" Mirage. How do you know exactly that the OT was that influential in changing the direction of Mirage?

I'm not trying to be critical, but from a debating standpoint, basically the more brazen the claim/statement you make, the more evidence/examples you need to support it; just those couple vague references within your "nerfing of the comics" paragraph, to infer what Laird and the Mirage offices were experiencing were underwhelming. Otherwise people are not going to take your claim or argument seriously, as shown in these replies. :ohwell:

Now I can't speak for others, but with all that being said, and you add passionate fans for TMNT. Well... those quick and harsh responses are not that unusual, it's almost to be... expected. **shrug**

[Konchadunga]

The design was just awful and ruined it. I still don't see why they couldn't have just used a damned black bandana on him.

It was hardly an action show. Past seasons 1 and maybe season 2 anyway.

I don't consider it an action show, but it definitely wasn't anything like Barney, either. Barney is a show that intends to educate children and instill values, and broadly-speaking, this sort of show is usually intended as an antithesis to the sort of children's programming that primarily intends to entertain children and sell them things, which is what the Fred Wolf TMNT cartoon was. The content of the shows is completely different. Mothra will need to explain to me when Barney ever had villains who put the world at risk, or any self-awareness of its own stupidity.

That's not rhetorical, Mothra. Having opinions is one thing, but you are not going to be welcomed in here if you state them in such a way as offends everyone who disagrees with them.

[Coola Yagami]

I don't consider it an action show, but it definitely wasn't anything like Barney, either. Barney is a show that intends to educate children and instill values, and broadly-speaking, this sort of show is usually intended as an antithesis to the sort of children's programming that primarily intends to entertain children and sell them things, which is what the Fred Wolf TMNT cartoon was. The content of the shows is completely different. Mothra will need to explain to me when Barney ever had villains who put the world at risk, or any self-awareness of its own stupidity.

That's not rhetorical, Mothra. Having opinions is one thing, but you are not going to be welcomed in here if you state them in such a way as offends everyone who disagrees with them.

I don't agree with what he says, but I can see it from his point of view. You guys really need to lighten up and not take his stuff to heart. Some of you get hurt as if YOU guys created the Turtles and he was ripping into your own creation. Perhaps he was rude in some statements, but I didn't see anything worth jumping all over him over. It's like he came in and said TMNT sucks and we're all losers and yadda yadda.

I think by Barney he meant by the turtles being all cute and childish. It's easy to make the comparison where one version has Leo run Shredder through with a sword... and another has the Turtles throw pizza at his face and trip him up.

[Jester]

I think you kinda kill your own argument by bringing up Bodycount. If Mirage was THAT conscience of the Kid's Cartoon, Bodycount wouldn't have been green lit. Heck, part of me now wonders if that was Kevin's way of "sticking it" to the Fred Wolf series. I agree with Coola about most kids not really knowing about the Mirage comics. I didn't until I joined here in 2004. I saw the NES TMNT cart and assumed the all red masks was a mistake, not a repurposing of old Mirage art. The comics and the show were 2 separate entities....until Image released it's TMNT books on the news stand. Now there was a "Oh, look! Turtles!" *flip flip* "What the heck is THIS!" moment when I was a 12 year old.

[Coola Yagami]

I think you kinda kill your own argument by bringing up Bodycount. If Mirage was THAT conscience of the Kid's Cartoon, Bodycount wouldn't have been green lit. Heck, part of me now wonders if that was Kevin's way of "sticking it" to the Fred Wolf series. I agree with Coola about most kids not really knowing about the Mirage comics. I didn't until I joined here in 2004. I saw the NES TMNT cart and assumed the all red masks was a mistake, not a repurposing of old Mirage art. The comics and the show were 2 separate entities....until Image released it's TMNT books on the news stand. Now there was a "Oh, look! Turtles!" *flip flip* "What the heck is THIS!" moment when I was a 12 year old.

LOL Me too. For some reason I thought that big yellow thing or whatever it was behind the Turtles on the NES cover was the Technodrome being sucked away to Dimension X. And yeah, I also thought 'wow, they got lazy and colored them all red'.

[CyberCubed]

I don't agree with what he says, but I can see it from his point of view. You guys really need to lighten up and not take his stuff to heart. Some of you get hurt as if YOU guys created the Turtles and he was ripping into your own creation. Perhaps he was rude in some statements, but I didn't see anything worth jumping all over him over. It's like he came in and said TMNT sucks and we're all losers and yadda yadda.

I think by Barney he meant by the turtles being all cute and childish. It's easy to make the comparison where one version has Leo run Shredder through with a sword... and another has the Turtles throw pizza at his face and trip him up.

Which is still nonsense. The action scenes and sense of danger in the original toon is on par with most cartoons, the only difference is the obvious avoidness of physical danger and more slapstick-y fight scenes.

[Coola Yagami]

Which is still nonsense. The action scenes and sense of danger in the original toon is on par with most cartoons, the only difference is the obvious avoidness of physical danger and more slapstick-y fight scenes.

Stop being a meanie bobeenie doo-doo head.

[CyberCubed]

I just think its obvious these people don't actually watch the OT and base what they know of it from faded memory or various youtube clips.

[Jester]

I just think its obvious these people don't actually watch the OT and base what they know of it from faded memory or various youtube clips.
I dunna Cubed, the Fred Wolf series was pretty much a comedy show with the occasional action beat.


And you take this stuff WAY too seriously. He prefers the Mirage series to the extreme detriment of the FW show. It's not like that's an unusual or unheard of opinion on this forum.

[Electric]

Can we all just be happy that, whether you care for it or not, this new series is reviving TMNT, adding on to their story and inspiring more revival in other forms? Games, comics, figures, just being new and relevant in the current day, so if you dont like the TV show, fine, but Im sure you can find some other new TMNT form you will enjoy.

[Coola Yagami]

Can we all just be happy that, whether you care for it or not, this new series is reviving TMNT, adding on to their story and inspiring more revival in other forms? Games, comics, figures, just being new and relevant in the current day, so if you dont like the TV show, fine, but Im sure you can find some other new TMNT form you will enjoy.

exactly!!! that's the spirit!!! bring on Colonel Shroeder!!!! ......what?

[ZariusTwo]

a chance to poke some fun at the 80's toon that basically derailed one of the best comics of all time.:

Derailed? That show made one of the most overrated comics of all time more relevant than it could ever hope to be on it's own. In fact, look at virtually every other Mirage edition of the comic and it's nowhere near as relevant as Archie was, or how IDW is currently. There's a reason for that: Take away the violence and bodycount, and It's really not that interesting, captivating, or innovative.

I think you'll find when you reach a certain age you'll grow out of this addiction to keep things "dark and edgy" and go back to enjoying light-hearted fluffyness. Given your enjoyment of aspects of the Nick show, you're well on your way to accomplishing that. At least I hope.

It's also funny how you say this

If you like the 80's toon, then that is wonderful! You are absolutely entitled, and I would never want to say the things to you which have been said to me already in this young thread.

You then follow up with this

Sheesh. I guess fans of the original comic aren't allowed here? Or can we stay as long as we don't speak ill of the Barney-style TMNT?

Yeah, because that isnt insulting our intelligence or capacity to grasp anything but simplicity or anything.

[BubblyShell22]

The reason Nick's bringing characters back from the 80's cartoon is because they want to freshen things up and put a new take on them. They're doing it for the fans of the 80's show, and I'm sure the staff are said fans of the 80's show, too. If they weren't, we wouldn't be seeing these characters. In fact, the staff are probably fans of most of the incarnations of TMNT, including the comics. That was shown in "The Gauntlet" when the fight pretty much was modeled after the fight the Turtles had with Shredder in the Mirage comics.

I would say to just let things take their course and see where they go. If you don't like it, you have the option of not watching the show at all.

[CyberCubed]

I don't even understand why people are calling them, "OT characters." They're TMNT characters, PERIOD.

Characters are not exclusive to one particular series.

[Coola Yagami]

Derailed? That show made one of the most overrated comics of all time more relevant than it could ever hope to be on it's own. In fact, look at virtually every other Mirage edition of the comic and it's nowhere near as relevant as Archie was, or how IDW is currently. There's a reason for that: Take away the violence and bodycount, and It's really not that interesting, captivating, or innovative.

I think you'll find when you reach a certain age you'll grow out of this addiction to keep things "dark and edgy" and go back to enjoying light-hearted fluffyness. Given your enjoyment of aspects of the Nick show, you're well on your way to accomplishing that. At least I hope.

It's also funny how you say this



You then follow up with this



Yeah, because that isnt insulting our intelligence or capacity to grasp anything but simplicity or anything.

I do have to agree with him though. People do come down hard on you if you diss the old show. But then again this place is named after the old show do you should expect done kind of backlash if you come here bashing it. On the other hand some people here shouldn't take the comments do personally. It makes being a tmnt fan look bad.

[Powder]

Derailed? That show made one of the most overrated comics of all time more relevant than it could ever hope to be on it's own. In fact, look at virtually every other Mirage edition of the comic and it's nowhere near as relevant as Archie was, or how IDW is currently. There's a reason for that: Take away the violence and bodycount, and It's really not that interesting, captivating, or innovative.

I think you'll find when you reach a certain age you'll grow out of this addiction to keep things "dark and edgy" and go back to enjoying light-hearted fluffyness.

Yeah, because that isnt insulting our intelligence or capacity to grasp anything but simplicity or anything.

Overrated by who, exactly? Before IDW came along, barely anybody knew those books existed. Even now, many still don't. Outside of NECA figures, the series got like no merch or mainstream promotion. GTFO. & relevance does not decide quality. Lil Wayne is considered the best rapper of all time by our generation & people think Kristen Stewart can act. PLEASE.

You act like violence and a bodycount are the selling point of the series. I guess you've never read the God damn thing because there is hardly all that much. The turtles deal with so much other ish that it's arguably one of the most well rounded comics period. They've encountered every kind of syndicate possible from aliens to mobsters to military goons to street thugs etc, gone to outer space, traveled time, dimension hopped, worked with genetics and all kinds of crazy sci-fi stuff, encountered dinosaurs, fallen in love, built robots, wrote history, every base is covered! & any real Mirage fan knows that it's strength is its depth. So many books get unbelievably philosophical & existential. There's tons of social commentary that make us reflect on our own flaws and absurdities as human beings, and it broke down both religion and politics on numerous occasions.

Just the same they were able to seamlessly change their tone at any given moment to show us that despite the heavy heartbreaking ish the turtles had to face, they never let it change them. They still had fun. They played with Shadow, they took road trips, they went to the movies, they played video games and sports, etc. There are stories where they fight werewolves and dress up like elves for kids on Christmas. They crossdressed to lure thugs and beat 'em up before they went to a Halloween party. They did corny/funny stuff all the time. There's plenty of light-hearted fluff thrown in along the way for good measure.

YOU don't think it's interesting or captivating, that doesn't make it a fact. Maybe these things went over your head, or maybe you just haven't been exposed to enough of it. You think the other dude is insulting your intelligence? Well you seem to think that we Mirage fans can't understand anything more than violence. Congrats, you're a giant hypocrite. :)

[dkram230]

Lil Wayne is considered the best rapper of all time by our generation & people think Kristen Stewart can act. PLEASE.


Powder, I have to ask... how old are you? Your quote above about Lil Wayne and "our generation" is what prompted me to ask LOL.

BTW- I think your TMNT artwork is amazing!

[Martin]

You act like violence and a bodycount are the selling point of the series. I guess you've never read the God damn thing because there is hardly all that much. The turtles deal with so much other ish that it's arguably one of the most well rounded comics period. They've encountered every kind of syndicate possible from aliens to mobsters to military goons to street thugs etc, gone to outer space, traveled time, dimension hopped, worked with genetics and all kinds of crazy sci-fi stuff, encountered dinosaurs, fallen in love, built robots, wrote history, every base is covered! & any real Mirage fan knows that it's strength is its depth. So many books get unbelievably philosophical & existential. There's tons of social commentary that make us reflect on our own flaws and absurdities as human beings, and it broke down both religion and politics on numerous occasions.

Just the same they were able to seamlessly change their tone at any given moment to show us that despite the heavy heartbreaking ish the turtles had to face, they never let it change them. They still had fun. They played with Shadow, they took road trips, they went to the movies, they played video games and sports, etc. There are stories where they fight werewolves and dress up like elves for kids on Christmas. They crossdressed to lure thugs and beat 'em up before they went to a Halloween party. They did corny/funny stuff all the time. There's plenty of light-hearted fluff thrown in along the way for good measure.

YOU don't think it's interesting or captivating, that doesn't make it a fact. Maybe these things went over your head, or maybe you just haven't been exposed to enough of it. You think the other dude is insulting your intelligence? Well you seem to think that we Mirage fans can't understand anything more than violence. Congrats, you're a giant hypocrite. :)

http://i.imgur.com/NSVGDWo.gif

[MothraLeo]

I meant to reply to much of this, but I have been away for a while due to a hospital stay followed by having to move.

I just want to say that while some of the posts in here seem to ignore my points, many of you made compelling arguments that have made me reconsider much of what I thought about this show. This show may have a lot of elements from '87, but they are re-done in a much less corny way.

Also the creators of this show clearly know their Turtles. Not just movies, but every show/comic/movie/RPG, etc is mined. Easter Eggs galore, as well as a penchant for homages (how about the pigeon gag in the season finale!) show that these guys really care about this franchise.

Our heroes are in good hands.

Thanks for the debate, it was fun, and I gained a new perspective.

Cheers! :tcool:

[Powder]

It's always pleasant to see debates turn out in a favorable way. Nice to see that you're cutting the series some slack and perhaps appreciating it a bit more. :)

[MothraLeo]

Cheers, mate!

[BubblyShell22]

It's awesome that things have changed for you and that you're willing to give this show a chance. I'm glad the season finale helped you see that there are good things about this show and that the crew really DOES care about the Turtles and knows what to do. Good for you.

[MisterMiracle]

I recently watched Turtles Forever and had a hard time getting through it. I did not care for it at all. I liked about a combined total of 25 seconds of it. I'm kinda scared to go back and watch the older Turtles stuff now after hating this movie so much.

[Grimlock]

I recently watched Turtles Forever and had a hard time getting through it. I did not care for it at all. I liked about a combined total of 25 seconds of it. I'm kinda scared to go back and watch the older Turtles stuff now after hating this movie so much.

What does that have to do with this topic?