Is it time for a gay Ninja Turtle?

[Andrew NDB]

With all the drastically different TMNT universes, a constant concern for being PC in most respects, gay rights being a very topical issue right now... is it time for a gay Ninja Turtle?

Michelangelo seemed to be giving bedroom eyes to Woody not too long ago over in IDW, and there is the whole rainbow bandanna thing...

[Zulithe]

Raph is gay.

Accept it. You know it to be true.

Source: I'm gay and I can smell my own.

[CyberCubed]

No there is not time for a gay ninja turtle and I don't ever want to see such a thing.

[Zulithe]

No there is not time for a gay ninja turtle and I don't ever want to see such a thing.

Too bad! Time for Raph to come out of the closet, err, I mean out of his shell!

[CyberCubed]

Gay Turtles makes no sense, they barely have love interests as it is.

They should make Angel a lesbian in the IDW series. Those scenes she shared with April outside the truck and in the hospital were quite suspicious.

[BabyTurtles]

.....no thanks.

the turtles are straight, if they want a gay turtle then they can make up a new one.

(I personally hate the idea of someone turning gay (in a show) when they have been straight and liking girls forever....just so they can have someone homosexual.......)
and don't even bring Mikey into this! Mikey is the least likely to be gay. (...well other than Raph XD)

[Stingray69]

I say no. No turtle should be gay. Now if a different figure where to be gay fine what ever but not the turtles.

[gobo]

Ridiculous topic is ridiculous, and not the amusing variety either. >_<

[Bry]

How often are the Turtles shown to be specifically straight? I mean, they're the only four of their kind and they're all brothers, so their romantic options have typically been a bit limited. There have been some short-lived crushes and relationships in various "versions" of the franchise, but none that apply to all of them, and it's hardly ever been a major focus.

If one of the Turtles were revealed as gay in one of the series' many (maaany) versions/adaptations, what difference would it make? I'm all for it.

[Galactus]

Mike: Jesus, Raph, you look like ****, what happened?

Raph: I don’t know, man. I got ****in’ wasted last night, and my phone says I texted some guy named Casey at 3:15 asking them to beat me up. And then at 4:30 I texted the same guy saying thanks.

Mike: And you don’t remember it?

Raph: No. Same as last time.

Mike: It... it just seems gay, doesn’t it?

Raph: I don’t know. Maybe, yeah.

Mike: Do you think you’re part of some, like, gay beat-up underworld? Like one of those gay beat-up clubs?

Raph: I don’t know. I dig chicks. I don’t remember any of it, I was so ****ed up. I might be gay, I don’t know. You mind covering with Splinter for a bit? I’m gonna go lay down in the john.

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5435&stc=1&d=1377407741

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Wouldn't Donatello be the first choice?

Doin' machines...ya perVERT!

That crush on April? Just a cover, until Casey enters stage left. Then the Sparks will REALLY Fly :o

[MutagenJosh]

I'm thinking no. The turtles are straight, and have always been.

[RaphAndDonnie]

Seems kinda...pander-y to me. I don't know I don't think I would really be bothered if one of the staff decided one of the Turtles were gay. It's not like it would help or hurt the character, unless romance started to take a bigger part or it was one of those arcs about the character overcoming prejudice for being gay.

[Aaronardo]

Raph is gay.

Accept it. You know it to be true.

Source: I'm gay and I can smell my own.

Raph is not gay.

Accept it. You know it to be true.

Source: Mona Lisa. 'Nuff said.

Anyway, I think the whole "gay Ninja Turtle" thing is a stupid idea. NO WAY.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Didn't they come out?
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120420004713/tmnt/images/d/db/Tmntcoots_sewer.jpg

[Shreddhead]

Been there, done that with that mirage porno comic.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Didn't they come out?
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120420004713/tmnt/images/d/db/Tmntcoots_sewer.jpg

True that :lol:

[Cryomancer]

I'd have no problem with this. Wasn't there some interview with 2k3 Donatello's voice actor that talked about this once? I could be remembering wrong. Since they so rarely seem particularly either way, I don't see it changing much, if it all. Which is of course how it should be.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Supposedly Donatello did machines in the 80s. That's technophile.


Dont the Turtles, themselves, reflect the "outcast" minority?
Same as the X-Men served as a political stand against race on sex, color, etc. as the story revolved around a group of different people who were being repressed.

I dont think we need a Turtle who is gay for the kids out there to connect with. The Turtles being different and hiding, yet still trying to get out, in addition to being teens and learning who they are, there should be enough for ANYONE to relate to. The shy kid, the gay kid, etc.

The Don/April thing is weird.
Leo is always smitten by a badass girl who kicks his ass.
Mike always seemed to like ladies, even sleeping with a girl dinosaur or something.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Maybe Slash can be the 5th Turtle who is also Gay! There ya go lol
He'd be, like, the bear if he could ever find another male.

[Andrew NDB]

Been there, done that with that mirage porno comic.

That was an Archie porno comic... as weird as that seems to type.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

I thought that was a joke throw-away comment.

What did Archie Comics put out?!

[zbowen]

To a Turtles? No. And I'm only subtly because even though their sexuality is almost never addressed, I don't like making changes to established characters. For example, Colossus in the Ultimaye comics always seemed strange to me.

However, I be all for introducing a new guy character, or to do it with a character whose sexuality was never addressed.

[BubblyShell22]

I doubt they would directly address this in the Nick show, but I wouldn't have a problem with it if one of the Turtles was revealed to be gay. Heck, I accepted it when Dumbledore came out of the closet, so I don't think it would be a big thing for me. Personally, I do think Mikey is gay in the new cartoon or maybe bi.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

I look forward to that day in the far distant future, probably long after my death, when consensual sexuality stops being an issue. I really don't understand why it has to be as big a deal as it is. You sleep with whomever you're attracted to, assuming there's consent. It doesn't matter if he/she/xie/it is human, turtle, turian, Squirtle, Protoss, EM crystalloid life-form, Tom Cruise, whatever, as long as everyone is into it.

In any case, due to their isolation and lack of prospects, I'd expect the turtles to be opportunists (other than any non-orientation moral reasons for passing up a lay, like not raping who's someone passed out). With Splinter being such a traditionalist, I'd be surprised if they were diametrically opposed to homosexuality - it pops up in the old literature and ukiyo-e frequently.

I don't like to pre-judge people's orientations by their personalities. I've been called everything from a lesbian to a homophobe, so as far as I'm concerned, speculation amounts to 0.

Your poll needs a third option: "Humanity, y u do dis?"

[The Big Bad]

If one is going to give the turtles sexualities at all...yes, without a doubt.

[snake]

Didn't they come out?
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120420004713/tmnt/images/d/db/Tmntcoots_sewer.jpg

:lol:
Coming out of their shells

[Jester]

:lol:
Coming out of their shells

But....but....
-S6mOBRi-Zk

I think it's an instants where the Turtles are essentially asexual. Sure they can have emotional relationships with humans...but could it even lead to...well...um...yeah?

[snake]

But....but....
-S6mOBRi-Zk

I think it's an instants where the Turtles are essentially asexual. Sure they can have emotional relationships with humans...but could it even lead to...well...um...yeah?

They certainly weren't 'walking straight' when they sang that!

[Martin]

Coming out of their shells just took a whole new meaning for me.

I don't think we'll ever see a gay turtle, even if we wanted to. They already kind of get away with interspecies relationships (stress on kind of), but if you add gay to that, I think it might be taking things a bit too far.

Source: I'm gay and I can smell my own
:lol:

[ToTheNines]

Mikey is gay in the Nicktoon, as far as I'm concerned.

[BabyTurtles]

Mikey is gay in the Nicktoon, as far as I'm concerned.

why does everyone think this!? lol XDD

remember this--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VxCUmDaq9k
(skip to 0:19)
Mikey: "especially the ladies..."
he is so straight

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Too bad! Time for Raph to come out of the closet, err, I mean out of his shell!

I have something even better for you. (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=43634)

[Shreddhead]

That was an Archie porno comic... as weird as that seems to type.

You're totally right, for some reason I thought I remembered the guy saying it was a joke in the mirage studio.

I thought that was a joke throw-away comment.

What did Archie Comics put out?!

View at your own risk...
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=29174

[Stingray69]

Why are people saying nick mike is gay?

[Captain PunchYouHard]

Why are people saying nick mike is gay?

Because he's sensitive, affectionate, and softhearted, traits which a lot of people consider un-masculine and therefore "homo."

[Stingray69]

Because he's sensitive, affectionate, and softhearted, traits which a lot of people consider un-masculine and therefore "homo."

Well that's about f-ing stupid.

[Jester]

Well that's about f-ing stupid.
And...sexist? Is it sexist?

[Captain PunchYouHard]

Well that's about f-ing stupid.

That's outdated gender roles for you.

[Ninjinister]

The main problem with introducing or outing a gay character in an established franchise is that almost nobody's ever been able to do it well. Even if the writer does it decently, the PR people play it up for all it's worth, screaming from rooftops "Look we've got a gay character! We're PC now! Love us!" (i.e. Alan Scott) In either case it's just completely inorganic.

Not to mention that the only place currently where it could be officially established is IDW... maybe the film (strong maybe on that one). You can't really do it in children's media yet because the quote-unquote moral guardians would be so far up their tailpipe that it would make an amusingly ironic innuendo.

[CyberCubed]

Mikey is gay in the Nicktoon, as far as I'm concerned.

I still never understood how you came to this conclusion. He has one small scene where there are hearts in his eyes while looking at Leatherhead, but that's about it.

[Wildcat]

Just because "Hot Button PC Topics" exist doesn't mean every given franchise has to bring them into their universe. Its not like people look at TMNT and think...oh theyre against gays/race etc...Why bring attention to something thats not even an issue with said franchise?

I have nothing against gay people, other races or any other minority group but when its done in cases like this it always seems forced and the characters just end up being a stereotype of themselves.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

But....but....
-S6mOBRi-Zk

I think it's an instants where the Turtles are essentially asexual. Sure they can have emotional relationships with humans...but could it even lead to...well...um...yeah?
I really wanted to see people leaving in those wide shots lol

Mikey is gay in the Nicktoon, as far as I'm concerned.
Ya, ok I could see that, possibly. But he's not FABULOUS enough

why does everyone think this!? lol XDD

remember this--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VxCUmDaq9k
(skip to 0:19)
Mikey: "especially the ladies..."
he is so straight
Bi and leaning towards ladies ;P

Just because "Hot Button PC Topics" exist doesn't mean every given franchise has to bring them into their universe. Its not like people look at TMNT and think...oh theyre against gays/race etc...Why bring attention to something thats not even an issue with said franchise?

I have nothing against gay people, other races or any other minority group but when its done in cases like this it always seems forced and the characters just end up being a stereotype of themselves.
^ This.
I agree.

[Shark_Blade]

Mikey and Raph are gay as far as in concerned.

And Leo and Don are bi.

Splinter is straight but basically neutered himself manually after mutating into a rat. It's for the best. Y'know how rats have high dosage of hormones and breed non-stop like rabbits..

[snake]

^^^
I really can't believe that people are thinking deep are the turtles sexual preferences.
I mean, it's not like they're real or anything.
And since the show hasn't provided us with any info like that, I'm assuming that their all straight.

[Jester]

Not 100%, but I think he's joking.

[snake]

Not 100%, but I think he's joking.

I posted that before the splinter edit. Now it's hilarious.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Imagine the Turtles are like this... but with Pizza... 'specially Mikey.
http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/AmericanPie_humping.jpg

Further irony is with the actor... :lol:

[Vivi]

I think I'd prefer it if Splinter was gay and Oroku Saki was his spurned ex.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

But then we loose Miwa...
How about Saki is gay and his revenge on Yoshi is that he's the "one that got away".
Obsessive stalker-type lol

[Avatar Yuffie]

Why not? The writer for the recent Tomb Raider game outright said that she won't mind Lara Croft depicted as a lesbian, if not purposely written her as a lesbian. I don't see why future TMNT adaptations shouldn't be allowed to at least depict one of them falling in love with a male Triceraton.

If say, Raph, is gay, will that REALLY be that big a deal? Will him having a long distance boyfriend discredit his hotheaded violent ninja character? Will that stop him from saving the world and protecting his family?

No. And it shouldn't be treated as such.

There is a fanbase who already can see the Turtles in a male relationship. Unfortunately it was turtlecest, which I'm not really a fan of, but still, it's there. So it won't be a shock at all.

[ButterflyBoy]

I know I likely have an extremist view, but the sad thing to me is that it would be such an issue when it really shouldn't be.

Admittedly, the turtles "sexuality" isn't often brought up, but it has been here and there and it is always one of them crushing on a girl. The idea that one of them crushing on a male character is so outlandish to some that it demonstrates how for we still have to go to attain equality. The issue to me is that it shouldn't be an issue at all. If in some continuity, Don (or whoever) were to crush on Casey instead of April, what would the inherent difference be other than to demonstrate well-deserved normalcy to the population?

But I guess I'm getting on my soapbox. :ohwell: Just had to chime in.

[Leo656]

Frankly, when I was younger it would have probably bothered me, but now that I'm older and wiser not only would it not shock me if one of the Turtles was gay in some continuity, I'd say the mathematical odds would be in favor of it, based on the ever-growing percentage of people who identify as "gay" or "bisexual" in this day and age.

I know some people prefer TMNT not address relationships and/or sexuality in any way whatsoever, but I don't find that line of thinking very realistic, given that relationships are one of the most fulfilling parts of life (supposedly, anyway), as well as given that in just about every incarnation, at least one of the TMNT has expressed physical attraction towards females, regardless of species (to those who find that "odd" or "creepy", take it up with the writers who established it as "canon" to their respective TMNT mythologies, or better yet, just accept it and get over it).

Now, just like you *can* have TMNT stories "go there" with regards to relationships, straight or gay, that doesn't mean you necessarily should, obviously. But I don't think it should be "forbidden" in either case. I could see arguments and evidence that could have any or all of them being straight, gay, or bi. Clearly, it hasn't been necessary for any of them to be gay for the past 30 years, so it's obviously not something overly important to the majority of fans. But it also hasn't been explored very deeply, either, so a talented writer could easily open that door if they chose to. It would bother me if it was done poorly, but if done well it could add another layer to one of the characters and make the TMNT "world" a bit more inclusive. It could give readers dealing with their own personal issues something to relate to, if it wasn't done in a way that was simply pandering.

It also wouldn't necessarily have to be a change done across the board with all TMNT media, either. An earlier poster mentioned DC's Alan Scott, and that's an interesting example. He's gay in DC's newer canon, but most fans don't choose to buy that as being the case for the character in general, because it directly goes against 60+ years of established stories and behavior with his character. So for many fans, it's simply "Ok, this version of Alan Scott is gay, and that's fine, but the character in general as represented in other comics and media is not (he pretty clearly was not, ever, which made the "switch" kind of insulting)." So if, say, Mikey "came out" in one medium, say the comics, it doesn't mean he'd also be gay in the Nick cartoon, or the Mirage comics. So again, since it would just be another exploration of the character, I don't see why it would be a huge deal. Each version of each Turtle has been mostly unique to their individual representations, "OT Raph" being markedly different as a character from "2K12 Raph", for example. Each version of each character caries their own unique personality traits, while retaining a few broader qualities. That being the case, if one version of one of them was gay, I don't think that would be a big deal at all.

If I had to "pick" one, I'd say either Mikey or Donnie seem the most likely, for various reasons (not Nick Donnie, obviously), but I still think any of them are more likely "bi" than "gay". Not sure why that is, exactly. Raph to me seems least likely; again, not sure why. Any of them "coming out" wouldn't be something I'd ask for, but it wouldn't get me all pissed off if it happened, either, as long as it made sense.

I agree with some of those who say "the bigger issue, is that this is even an issue." Because let's face it, we may only be talking about fictional characters, but the fact is if we can't accept that some of the fictional characters we care so much about may be gay, how can we claim to be accepting of it in real life? Saying "I don't want to see it in my fictional entertainment" is just another way of saying, broadly, "I don't want to see it at all, in fact I turn to entertainment to avoid it if I can," and that's... kind of messed up, actually.

[ButterflyBoy]

Well stated Leo656 :)

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

If you want to bring up sexuality in the Turtles series. why not have, say, the Shredder punishing Rocksteady and Bebop for messing up by:

"You know the penalty for failing. Get your trousers off!"

[Guitar_Raph]

Mikey and Raph are gay as far as in concerned.

Let me guess. Because they have relationships with humans (Raph' likes to spar with Casey while Mikey (in my TMNT universe) jams with Ex-Cel Dude).

The Walk Straight song hurt COOTS real bad, got a bum rap. And if people got the wrong idea about the tune, they would yank their kids out of the cocnert over a mixed message.

[Blossombrooks]

If you want to bring up sexuality in the Turtles series. why not have, say, the Shredder punishing Rocksteady and Bebop for messing up by:

"You know the penalty for failing. Get your trousers off!"

Why not? Because there is a big difference between sexuality and sexual violence, that's why.

[plasticturtle]

They should have one come out just to piss off the moral guardians. Remember the uproar when J.K. Rowling revealed Dumbledore was gay?

But of course I can't see Nickelodeon allowing such a thing because it would almost assuredly cut into their ratings and toy sales. I'd like to think a lot of people wouldn't care. Unfortunately the types who would are the types that are the most vocal and that may lead to bad publicity. I can't see Nick taking that risk.

[Aaronardo]

Frankly, when I was younger it would have probably bothered me, but now that I'm older and wiser not only would it not shock me if one of the Turtles was gay in some continuity, I'd say the mathematical odds would be in favor of it, based on the ever-growing percentage of people who identify as "gay" or "bisexual" in this day and age.

I know some people prefer TMNT not address relationships and/or sexuality in any way whatsoever, but I don't find that line of thinking very realistic, given that relationships are one of the most fulfilling parts of life (supposedly, anyway), as well as given that in just about every incarnation, at least one of the TMNT has expressed physical attraction towards females, regardless of species (to those who find that "odd" or "creepy", take it up with the writers who established it as "canon" to their respective TMNT mythologies, or better yet, just accept it and get over it).

Now, just like you *can* have TMNT stories "go there" with regards to relationships, straight or gay, that doesn't mean you necessarily should, obviously. But I don't think it should be "forbidden" in either case. I could see arguments and evidence that could have any or all of them being straight, gay, or bi. Clearly, it hasn't been necessary for any of them to be gay for the past 30 years, so it's obviously not something overly important to the majority of fans. But it also hasn't been explored very deeply, either, so a talented writer could easily open that door if they chose to. It would bother me if it was done poorly, but if done well it could add another layer to one of the characters and make the TMNT "world" a bit more inclusive. It could give readers dealing with their own personal issues something to relate to, if it wasn't done in a way that was simply pandering.

It also wouldn't necessarily have to be a change done across the board with all TMNT media, either. An earlier poster mentioned DC's Alan Scott, and that's an interesting example. He's gay in DC's newer canon, but most fans don't choose to buy that as being the case for the character in general, because it directly goes against 60+ years of established stories and behavior with his character. So for many fans, it's simply "Ok, this version of Alan Scott is gay, and that's fine, but the character in general as represented in other comics and media is not (he pretty clearly was not, ever, which made the "switch" kind of insulting)." So if, say, Mikey "came out" in one medium, say the comics, it doesn't mean he'd also be gay in the Nick cartoon, or the Mirage comics. So again, since it would just be another exploration of the character, I don't see why it would be a huge deal. Each version of each Turtle has been mostly unique to their individual representations, "OT Raph" being markedly different as a character from "2K12 Raph", for example. Each version of each character caries their own unique personality traits, while retaining a few broader qualities. That being the case, if one version of one of them was gay, I don't think that would be a big deal at all.

If I had to "pick" one, I'd say either Mikey or Donnie seem the most likely, for various reasons (not Nick Donnie, obviously), but I still think any of them are more likely "bi" than "gay". Not sure why that is, exactly. Raph to me seems least likely; again, not sure why. Any of them "coming out" wouldn't be something I'd ask for, but it wouldn't get me all pissed off if it happened, either, as long as it made sense.

I agree with some of those who say "the bigger issue, is that this is even an issue." Because let's face it, we may only be talking about fictional characters, but the fact is if we can't accept that some of the fictional characters we care so much about may be gay, how can we claim to be accepting of it in real life? Saying "I don't want to see it in my fictional entertainment" is just another way of saying, broadly, "I don't want to see it at all, in fact I turn to entertainment to avoid it if I can," and that's... kind of messed up, actually.

You, sir, deserve an up-vote.

[VaughnMichael]

As a gay man no I don't want to see a homosxual ninja turtle for the sake of seeing one.
Quite frankly the only character I could really ever see being this way is perhaps Baxter Stockman.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

I imagine that writing gay characters in fiction these days can't be easy. Not just because homosexuality is still taboo for many. It's probably tough to pull off without the character seeming like a "token gay" character. I think a couple of good examples from my favorite works of fiction lately are Renly from A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones and the gay couple in The Walking Dead comics. In both cases, they are characters who just happen to be gay, instead of the writers saying "hey look we're being progressive everyone!". I think the problem with a gay Ninja Turtle would be that it would be tough to not come off as the latter.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I imagine that writing gay characters in fiction these days can't be easy. Not just because homosexuality is still taboo for many. It's probably tough to pull off without the character seeming like a "token gay" character. I think a couple of good examples from my favorite works of fiction lately are Renly from A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones and the gay couple in The Walking Dead comics. In both cases, they are characters who just happen to be gay, instead of the writers saying "hey look we're being progressive everyone!". I think the problem with a gay Ninja Turtle would be that it would be tough to not come off as the latter.

It would be impossible. Why have a gay Turtle anyway, especially since there were none in the original Eastman and Laird series? What can be done, except use said Turtle as cheap joke fodder? The series isn't centered on sexuality or even romance anyway. It would make as much sense as having, say, a Zoroastrian Turtle.

[Bry]

It would be impossible. Why have a gay Turtle anyway, especially since there were none in the original Eastman and Laird series? What can be done, except use said Turtle as cheap joke fodder? The series isn't centered on sexuality or even romance anyway. It would make as much sense as having, say, a Zoroastrian Turtle.
Was each Turtle specifically identified as straight in the Mirage run, though? If not, who's to say one of them wasn't gay? And why would one of them being gay mean they'd be used as "cheap joke fodder"?

[Tazi]

Krang & Shredder were a gay couple in OT... Just sayin.

[raph27]

No. No. Nonononononono. Sorry, but that would be like if they rebooted Avengers and made Hulk gay.

[psychturtle]

I'd say based on the behavior of each turtle in the nick cartoon, my experience with counseling teens who struggle with sexual identity, and my professional opinion, Raphael would be the best candidate to be at least bisexual if not gay. Raph is depressed, which manifests in anger outbursts, impulsivity, and a deep care for others. These aren't necessarily trademarks of homosexual identity. Merely, these are specific to raph and may provide some insight into the depth of the character. The poor guy is in emotional turmoil. His relationship with Casey is one of the first relationships he experiences outside his family. He's a very interesting, cool character and is my second fav turtle behind donnie.

Source: counselor soon to be psychologist with years of experience.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Krang & Shredder were a gay couple in OT... Just sayin.

Rather impossible when Krang had no sexual organs. :lol:

[Tazi]

Rather impossible when Krang had no sexual organs. :lol:

It would be straight out "breakf**k"... :P

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Was each Turtle specifically identified as straight in the Mirage run, though? If not, who's to say one of them wasn't gay? And why would one of them being gay mean they'd be used as "cheap joke fodder"?

Here's a strip from a gay-themed webcomic by a gay artist:

http://raccoony.com/strips/closetcoon23c.jpg

Yes, even gays make cheap gay jokes.

For the record, unless the series were about sexuality, there would be no reason to bring up sexual orientation at all.

[CyberCubed]

Nobody wants to see a gay turtle besides Turtlecest shippers.

[snake]

Nobody wants to see a gay turtle besides Turtlecest shippers.

And they have fanfics for those fantasies *shudders*.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, unfortunately when most people think of a gay Turtle, they think of the Turtles falling in love with each other, but it doesn't have to be that way at all. I'm not saying to have one there for the sake of having a gay Turtle. However, it wouldn't bother me if someone were to reveal that one of them is or was gay. Rowling did it beautifully with Dumbledore in that the readers never really suspected it, though she did seem to leave some subtle hints now that I've read the books again. It was just when someone asked about Dumbledore, she was honest and said he was gay.

If this were to happen in the Turtles universe, I would welcome it, though as most have said, it wouldn't happen in the Nick series save in fan fics.

[Jester]

I think the bigger issue here is that by taking an establish character, like DC did with GA Green Lantern, and making him gay seems like a pandering move. If a new (or even less established) character was created that way, and it was just who they were and done well and not in a seemingly pandering, "oh look how forward thinking we are" way, it could work. The reason there's so much "NOT THE TURTLES!" is because it's very hard to see it as less than a bit of pandering to take one of the major, established characters and change them for the sake of change.

Leo does have a point that it could be universe specific...but that seems more in the minds of the fans really. I'm sure if you asked DC about Allan Scott they'd say, "Oh he's always been gay...even when he wasn't written as such." I mean, it'd be very different for Turtles (since there are MANY distinct universes, thus making GL a poor analogy, I guess) but the fact remains to shoehorn in a trait onto a long established character just to seem inclusive seems to be the absolute wrong way to create diversity in comics.

EDIT: And Bubbly's right. Just because you're heterosexual doesn't mean you're attracted to your opposite sex siblings, does it? Seems ridiculous how many people seem to think, "Gay Turtle = Turtle-cest!"

[Zulithe]

Yes, unfortunately when most people think of a gay Turtle, they think of the Turtles falling in love with each other, but it doesn't have to be that way at all. I'm not saying to have one there for the sake of having a gay Turtle. However, it wouldn't bother me if someone were to reveal that one of them is or was gay. Rowling did it beautifully with Dumbledore in that the readers never really suspected it, though she did seem to leave some subtle hints now that I've read the books again. It was just when someone asked about Dumbledore, she was honest and said he was gay.

If this were to happen in the Turtles universe, I would welcome it, though as most have said, it wouldn't happen in the Nick series save in fan fics.

Raph x Casey :p

[Luckyday]

Been there, done that with that mirage porno comic.

That was all archie my friend. Peter would knife someone first prison style then to let something like that happen his mirage comics.

[Refractive Reflections]

Because let's face it, we may only be talking about fictional characters, but the fact is if we can't accept that some of the fictional characters we care so much about may be gay, how can we claim to be accepting of it in real life? Saying "I don't want to see it in my fictional entertainment" is just another way of saying, broadly, "I don't want to see it at all, in fact I turn to entertainment to avoid it if I can," and that's... kind of messed up, actually.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that one Leo656, that seems to jump too far to conclusions, there's a BIG difference between acceptance/tolerance of others versus preference of entertainment. It's a slippery slope of logic in which we could expand this controversial issue to not only sexuality, but also in terms of religion and politics. There could be arguments that state if the cartoon doesn't incorporate religious and political viewpoints (not from a "preachy" standpoint but from an informative standpoint), then it expresses intolerance in accepting the cultural differences of society. So if somebody chooses not to watch a cartoon that does incorporate religious/political ideas, would somebody be prejudiced then for not wanting to watch it? :-?

With entertainment its what people want to do on their own recreational time unlike other issues associated with maintaining a decent standard of living (i.e. equal opportunity employment, customer-business treatment, etc.), and naturally people are going to gravitate to what makes them feel comfortable. Just because somebody doesn't want a controversial issue in their entertainment, doesn't mean that they are prejudiced, otherwise it can lead to a slippery slope argument of stating that people should be culturally "homogenized" which would obliterate the defining lines of individuality. And typically individuality is expressed through recreational time.

With such a diverse amount of individualistic definitions for entertainment, one can't claim a "standard" of entertainment upon others and state that those who don't find it appealing must have some implicit prejudice, especially with controversial issues.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

And they have fanfics for those fantasies *shudders*.

Ever heard of "Rule 34"? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule%2034)

[pingclang]

Here's my thing, I don't watch Turtles to see anyone in love with anyone. I wanna see Turtles kicking the crap out of the Foot and Shredder and aliens and mutants. The Donnie and April thing doesn't peak my interest at all. My whole point in saying this is just leave sexuality out of it. Period. I don't want gay Turtles because I don't want to see their love life, I wanna see them kicking ass and be told a decent story while they do it. Just like if I go in public I'm just as outraged by gay couples making out as hetero couples, keep it at home. I'm not sure if I'm clear or not but, no, just no.

[Jester]

And there may be another issue.... to a lot of people (homo or hetero) sexual relationships are private matters. People (unless they are that open...or are covering for their true lack of real experience) seldom just come right out and talk about what they do behind closed doors.


It may be more of a "privacy" issue than any taboo about homosexuality.

[METALHEAD]

no. never. wtf. if any tmnt turns gay i swear i will rage like a mother ****er.

i'm sick of companies and society shuving gay crap down my throat. they turn the first green allen scott lantern gay. that didnt sit well with me.

enough with turning straights into gays. enough political correct bs... :tgrumble:

[Cipher]

enough political correct bs... :tgrumble:
Well, you certainly don't have to worry about that post being politically correct.

Or any other kind.

[Avatar Yuffie]

no. never. wtf. if any tmnt turns gay i swear i will rage like a mother ****er.

i'm sick of companies and society shuving gay crap down my throat. they turn the first green allen scott lantern gay. that didnt sit well with me.

enough with turning straights into gays. enough political correct bs... :tgrumble:

Whatever makes you think the Turtles of the past series are always straight?

[Pterobat]

I can't think of any reason why not, save for the practical concerns of marketing to young children (who must be shielded from "teh gayz" at all costs), and marketing to fandom that doesn't want the gay cooties. Society and audience are the biggest things in the way.

It's impossible to pinpoint any Turtle or any other character's sexuality based on stereotypes, or on easy jokes. Anybody can have any kind of sexual orientation, and of course, it's also not beyond possibility for a previously-straight character to be considered gay, because sexuality is fluid and stuff. I thought it was completely credible that Lexington from Gargoyles was gay, despite his chasing after Angela in one episode.

But because of who this franchise is marketed to, revealing a character to be anything but straight would have to be confined to a "by the way" on Twitter or in an interview, and even then, that would be a hard deal.

But as to if there is anything inherent in the Turtle franchise that dictates, "No homo", independent of society and target demographics, no, I don't think there is.

[Leo656]

Cipher: :lol:

I just find it interesting HOW big a deal this is for some people, as in, it would totally break their TMNT fandom. While I absolutely don't think it's something that needs to be done, it absolutely would not make me any less of a fan of TMNT or whichever character it turned out to be. And I do think it says something about a person who would be so offended if a TMNT character "came out" that they would stop being a fan of the property, or who thinks it would mean that TMNT would suddenly be overloaded with gay content. If that was how it went, then no, it wouldn't be a good idea at all, but there's lots of ways it could be done organically as a background plot device, the exact same way it has been with every straight relationship they've shown in the TMNT.

And I get that relationships aren't some folks' favorite part of TMNT, but it IS still an oft-repeated part of TMNT storytelling. It's not the main focus, because TMNT is not a romance story, but it's still a common story that comes up in every version of the cartoons, comics, etc.

I'm also simply looking forward while paying attention to the media mindset of the present. As years have gone on, people have become more accepting of gays in all areas of pop culture, often "tweaking" existing properties to allow for more inclusive content (like DC did with GL, even though that's a weaker example). I'm pretty sure that at some point in the next 20-25 years, a semi-main character in one of the TMNT media will have "come out", and a few years after that, I would even bet one of the "Core Four" would as well. It's simply society and pop culture evolving alongside each other.

So what happens if/when that day comes, as it likely will? By then, I'm guessing we'll all just deal with it. It's pretty clear we aren't ready to yet, at this point in time.

EDIT: okstpsy, that theory actually makes a lot of sense. It's as valid an explanation for Raphael's anger issues as I've seen put forward,and I've actually known a few people like that. I reverse my original position; while Mikey or Donnie still could go either way, I now believe it is in fact Raphael who is so deep in the closet that he's finding Christmas presents. :trazz:

[Kendamu]

No, it's not time for a gay Turtle. The time for a gay Turtle was back during Peter Laird's somewhat recent run on the Mirage books. A story that involves a Turtle coming out would've fit in a lot better with those stories than what we're currently getting. Right now, it would just feel shoehorned in.

EDIT: I always find it funny when someone uses the term "shoving it down my throat" when talking about how uncomfortable they are with gay stuff. :P

[Leo656]

:lol: You'd think they would have though long and hard before settling on such a suspect choice of words. :lol:

[Jester]

Not sure if Leo didn't take his own advice purposefully....

[Leo656]

^^^ This guy gets it. :lol:

It's me, brah, it's allllways on purpose. :tcool:

[Coola Yagami]

If anything Mikey 2012 already sets off some alarms. There's no need to out him, just keep those little scenes comin lol.

[Andrew NDB]

EDIT: I always find it funny when someone uses the term "shoving it down my throat" when talking about how uncomfortable they are with gay stuff. :P

Shoving stuff down throats isn't an inherently gay thing. Trust me.

[CyberCubed]

Nobody wants to see gay mutant Turtles.

What's next, Rat King turns out to be gay? Or maybe IDW Shredder is gay?

[ObiWanFan4life]

Nobody wants to see gay mutant Turtles.

What's next, Rat King turns out to be gay? Or maybe IDW Shredder is gay?

Now I don't want them to at ALL but, IDW Shredder seems to prefer Dark Leo over Karai, so........

[Tazi]

Now I don't want them to at ALL but, IDW Shredder seems to prefer Dark Leo over Karai, so........

Maybe he is not an incest-fan...

[CyberCubed]

I think Angel should be a lesbian in IDW. Her and April look good together.

[ABrown]

Personally I don't want to see the turtles having love interests of either sex.

[Zulithe]

I think Angel should be a lesbian in IDW. Her and April look good together.

So it's okay if April lezes out but Raph and Slash can't rub shells? I see how it is.

Personally I don't want to see the turtles having love interests of either sex.

They're teenagers though, come on you know they are thinking about sex many times per day. It must be really frustrating to be a turtle and have so few outlets.

[Galactus]

Is this a hint to a plot twist of Odyssey?

Seriously though I'd be all for a recurring character to be homosexual. Either taking a character that is important enough to have an impact or build a new one up.

As for the turtles themselves I honestly don't see why not. There's nothing in the establish canon to say that the turtles couldn't be attracted to males as well as females and nothing in how the individual turtles are generaly defined to say that a new version were one or more is gay would be 'wrong'.

Thing is apart from maybe Raph and Ninjara in the Archie comics their quasi romantic pairings with females have never been significant enough to be a defining aspect and the same would be true of romantic pairings with males that it would make me wonder what would be the point? Plus we're kind of in weird territory as it is when it's shown or hinted at an attraction between the turtles and humans or human-like beings.

To broaden this a bit I wouldn't mind seeing a continuity were the four turtles are actualy female, three sisters. I think that would be a significantly different enough spin to warrant an elseworlds-esque miniseries.

[CyberCubed]

So it's okay if April lezes out but Raph and Slash can't rub shells? I see how it is.

They're teenagers though, come on you know they are thinking about sex many times per day. It must be really frustrating to be a turtle and have so few outlets.

You know good and well lesbians are more accepted in society than gay's. Seeing girls kissing nowadays is so common that I don't even view it was lesbian anymore, it just seems like something everyone does now.

Also because all those girls kissing aren't real lesbians, they just do it to attract guys. Let alone the TV/Movie/Music industry promoting lesbians only for guy arousal.

[Jester]

Man, Cybercubed, you're a real enlightened bloke....

[Andrew NDB]

Is this a hint to a plot twist of Odyssey?

Absolutely not.

[OrokuYoshiFilms]

I have nothing against homosexuality. They're regular people like everyone else. Some of them are talented, creative, smart, admirable, and some are just straight up a**holes just like EVERYBODY else. With it's prevalence and acceptance in modern society, everyone feels a need to touch on the subject in some way or another in whatever given franchise they weren't represented in before. Which I feel is kind of stupid?

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't homosexuals want to be treated equally? If that's the case then why does there need to be so many discussions about them as if they're some set apart group? I'm sick of talking/hearing about homosexuality. I can't wait for there to be true equality amongst people's sexual preferences. Then everybody can shut up about it.

SN/hypothetical: what if the turtles have been gay this whole time? Does it really even matter? Eat pizza, make jokes, look cool, and fight. That's all I require of my turtles to enjoy myself. I don't care what they're into behind closed doors. (Someone mentioned them being in love with pizza, and then there was an American Pie photo and the irony behind it.....that. That was funny.)

In the interest of staying on topic though, I'm not really interested in seeing a gay turtle. It's not gonna make or break my experience. Until the Nick series with Leo/Karai and Donnie/April all I can remember about the whole turtle companionship thing with anyone for that matter was some flirting with April in the first two movies, and Mona Lisa in the OT. When I was a kid I thought girls had cooties so I don't remember any of that from the comics.

Gay Splinter would be very interesting though as someone mentioned earlier....when I read that I started talking like Donnie in Secret of the Ooze: "Yeahhhhh.......y-yeahhhh!"

[Kendamu]

Shoving stuff down throats isn't an inherently gay thing. Trust me.

No, but it makes for a fun joke.

[Redeemer]

I voted no, for the simple fact I actually dont like the turtles having love interest at all. Its one thing I really enjoyed about TMNT, no love drama.

But who says they wouldn't make a supporting character homosexual. Maybe vernen or Irma???

[Jester]

Did we seriously go 6 pages without one mention of Vernon? Inexcusable.

[Coola Yagami]

You know good and well lesbians are more accepted in society than gay's. Seeing girls kissing nowadays is so common that I don't even view it was lesbian anymore, it just seems like something everyone does now.

Also because all those girls kissing aren't real lesbians, they just do it to attract guys. Let alone the TV/Movie/Music industry promoting lesbians only for guy arousal.

yeah.... it looks more like eventually April and Angel are gonna end up fighting over Casey than to actually be into each other.

Still think 2012 Mikey is either gay or has some slight gay overtones.

[BabyTurtles]

yeah.... it looks more like eventually April and Angel are gonna end up fighting over Casey than to actually be into each other.

Still think 2012 Mikey is either gay or has some slight gay overtones.

just because Mikey is affectionate doesn't mean he's gay.

straight dudes can be affectionate too. :ohwell:

[Coola Yagami]

just because Mikey is affectionate doesn't mean he's gay.

straight dudes can be affectionate too. :ohwell:

That scene where he said 'the heart is a sensitive thing... squish', listen to the tone of his voice, like he raised a pitch. It looks good on a cartoon talking turtles but I can't see many straight people talking like that.

And of course the extreme crush on Bradford.

[BabyTurtles]

That scene where he said 'the heart is a sensitive thing... squish', listen to the tone of his voice, like he raised a pitch. It looks good on a cartoon talking turtles but I can't see many straight people talking like that.

And of course the extreme crush on Bradford.

I listened to it...he sounds normal? :-? (I don't know what I'm looking for exactly...)

Mikey has always been the compassionate turtle, so thats normal.

and can't a straight dude have a MANCRUSH!! XD
definition: mancrush "A hetrosexual man admiring another man to an extreme in a non-romantic or sexual way, more having an intense desire to be that other man."

which is obviously what Mikey was doing...he wanted to be like Bradford, he was his hero.

also I had a guy friend that acted exactly like Mikey (he loved hugging people)....he had a girlfriend and everything XD

[Luckyday]

You people are reading way too much into this and remind you that this coming from the guy who came up with the splinter surface theory.:trolleye:

[BabyTurtles]

You people are reading way too much into this and remind you that this coming from the guy who came up with the splinter surface theory.:trolleye:

Splinter's surface theory? o_o

[Cure]

For a thread advocating progressive thinking, it sure is full of people stereotyping. Only gay dudes can be sensitive? OK.

[CyberCubed]

Well I've never come across a mean gay person.

[Cure]

Doesn't mean they're not out there.

[Leo656]

Did we seriously go 6 pages without one mention of Vernon? Inexcusable.

:lol: Probably just too easy. Even as a kid, I flat-out knew he was gay. Especially by the standards of how gays were presented in pop culture in the 1980s: Somewhat subtle, but still playing to stereotypes, never overtly proclaimed to be "out" but lots of little signs including, but not limited to: Wearing of pink, always seen in the company of women yet never expressing any attraction towards them at all, slightly whiny or high-pitched voice, "wimpy" or "effeminate" mannerisms and behavior, and always played for comic relief. No joke, in many movies and TV shows in the 1980s there were LOTS of characters who at the time just seemed "odd", but that we look back on now knowing what we've since learned and we go "Oh, ok. THAT's what was going on there." As a society, we weren't ready to fully accept it, as well as not wanting to offend the gay audience since these characters were mostly cheap comic relief, so these characters were never explicitly stated to be gay, but in retrospect they clearly were. Like pretty much any character Jon Cryer played in pretty much anything back then.

Vernon was never NOT gay; he fits every "Gay '80s Character Criteria" to a T. In fact, he's probably one of the more offensive types, since he was so obnoxiously unpleasant, everyone hated him, and he was mostly useless. Eh, different time, different standards. But it could seriously be argued, without being explicitly stated on-screen, that with Vernon the TMNT franchise has had a gay character since almost the beginning. It's always been out there, pretty easy to spot, but never really needed to be said aloud because really, what would change, if anything?

That's kind of how I feel about anyone else in the franchise being gay; it wouldn't change a whole lot, and likely wouldn't become a dominant or even main focus of any stories, it would just sort of being an acknowledgement of "yes, society grew up and we won't pretend these social issues don't exist."

[Coola Yagami]

i like how whenever someone has the slightest indication that they might be gay, everyone jumps in with thousands of reasons to explain it away. As if it would really be so damn horrible that one of the characters is cursed by the disease of homosexuality. Lighten up people. We're never gonna be open minded if we keep treating gay people as if they were something bad. I swear if one of the Turtles in the new movie were gay, it would cause 10X more outrage than making Shredder white.

I'm not saying I think Mikey is gay, I'm saying if he were to come out, it wouldn't surprise me characterwise. I'd be more surprised that Nick had the balls to do it.

[CyberCubed]

i like how whenever someone has the slightest indication that they might be gay, everyone jumps in with thousands of reasons to explain it away. As if it would really be so damn horrible that one of the characters is cursed by the disease of homosexuality. Lighten up people. We're never gonna be open minded if we keep treating gay people as if they were something bad. I swear if one of the Turtles in the new movie were gay, it would cause 10X more outrage than making Shredder white.

I'm not saying I think Mikey is gay, I'm saying if he were to come out, it wouldn't surprise me characterwise. I'd be more surprised that Nick had the balls to do it.

Oh c'mon. People don't want the Turtles to be gay doesn't mean they're homophobic.

Its the same as whitewashing Shredder in the new movie. Shredder has always been Japanese and to make him a white guy is just sick and wrong.

[Electric]

would i mind it? no.

do i think itll happen? no

theres not really a reason to. the turtles, despite nicks Donxapril leoxkarai thing, arent meant to deal with things like love and relationships.

If they did, i could only see it being mikey or raph, but i doubt nick will do it. too big of a risk and no real point to doing it

[Leo656]

To be fair, it doesn't make them *not* homophobic, either. What makes it appear that way, is that many people who are vehemently opposed to the idea don't have much reason besides, "I just don't like it." Some people act like it would be something earth-shattering, or that it would drive them away from continuing to be fans of the franchise. That's what comes off as homophobic. There's the "It wouldn't add anything" argument, which can be valid, but the "it would ruin everything" p.o.v. some people seem to have is what comes off as homophobic.

[Coola Yagami]

To be fair, it doesn't make them *not* homophobic, either. What makes it appear that way, is that many people who are vehemently opposed to the idea don't have much reason besides, "I just don't like it." Some people act like it would be something earth-shattering, or that it would drive them away from continuing to be fans of the franchise. That's what comes off as homophobic. There's the "It wouldn't add anything" argument, which can be valid, but the "it would ruin everything" p.o.v. some people seem to have is what comes off as homophobic.

Exactly. For example, Mikey could be gay, and NOTHING would be changed from the eps we saw so far. Hell, we never see him show any interest in women at all. The entire series could go on like that and NOTHING would be changed or different.

People also have to stop with the 'think of the children' crap since children can be gay too. I'd imagine if one of the turtles are gay, there are lots of gay kids out these dealing with being in the closet for fear of getting beat up at school or even thrown out of the family that would love to relate with an awesome kick-ass ninja turtle that doesn't go with the flamey stereotype.

[BabyTurtles]

i like how whenever someone has the slightest indication that they might be gay, everyone jumps in with thousands of reasons to explain it away. As if it would really be so damn horrible that one of the characters is cursed by the disease of homosexuality. Lighten up people. We're never gonna be open minded if we keep treating gay people as if they were something bad. I swear if one of the Turtles in the new movie were gay, it would cause 10X more outrage than making Shredder white.

I'm not saying I think Mikey is gay, I'm saying if he were to come out, it wouldn't surprise me characterwise. I'd be more surprised that Nick had the balls to do it.

dude.....it's like turning Superman(Clark Kent) African American.
if the person was never meant to be African American...then don't make him African American.

instead of trying to change something you can't.... make a new person that is African American.

like Spiderman, they made Miles Morales an African American/Latino Spiderman. They didn't change Peter Parker's race did they?

if a character is straight, they are straight you can't simply make someone gay just so we can have more gays....it isn't right. Instead make a new character.

Mikey is not gay, he has never been gay. (you don't simply become gay)
he has liked girls in both the tv series and comics.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yAyEJAdzGnk/UUpKni5nwXI/AAAAAAAAKXk/JdSqLH0NiYI/s320/20-4.jpg

[Coola Yagami]

dude.....it's like turning Superman(Clark Kent) African American.
if the person was never meant to be African American...then don't make him African American.

instead of trying to change something you can't.... make a new person that is African American.

like Spiderman, they made Miles Morales an African American/Latino Spiderman. They didn't change Peter Parker's race did they?

if a character is straight, they are straight you can't simply make someone gay just so we can have more gays....it isn't right. Instead make a new character.

Mikey is not gay, he has never been gay. (you don't simply become gay)
he has liked girls in both the tv series and comics.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yAyEJAdzGnk/UUpKni5nwXI/AAAAAAAAKXk/JdSqLH0NiYI/s320/20-4.jpg

That's what I said about black Kingpin, and yet everyone is all like 'but his role was so good, blah blah' and even went as far to say 'the role works better with a black guy'. I could care less if it does, if the Kingpin is white, he's damn white. And I won't even say anything about black Nick Fury, lmao. I think everyone even forgot what the original looked like.

Mikey hasn't shown any interest in girls (so far) in the 2012 show. The IDW Mikey doesn't change anything since it's a different version of Mikey.

[BabyTurtles]

That's what I said about black Kingpin, and yet everyone is all like 'but his role was so good, blah blah' and even went as far to say 'the role works better with a black guy'. I could care less if it does, if the Kingpin is white, he's damn white. And I won't even say anything about black Nick Fury, lmao. I think everyone even forgot what the original looked like.

Mikey hasn't shown any interest in girls (so far) in the 2012 show. The IDW Mikey doesn't change anything since it's a different version of Mikey.

....I guess I just think a character's sexual orientation stays the same in every incarnation..... XD.....I mean have we ever questioned wether or not Batman was straight?
also Greg Cipes did say that he thinks every girl has a crush on Mikey.....and Ciro responded that maybe he would give 2012 Irma to Mikey :D

if thats any hint that 2012 Mikey is straight. (even if Ciro was joking, still not sure though)

[Coola Yagami]

....I guess I just think a character's sexual orientation stays the same in every incarnation..... XD.....I mean have we ever questioned wether or not Batman was straight?
also Greg Cipes did say that he thinks every girl has a crush on Mikey.....and Ciro responded that maybe he would give 2012 Irma to Mikey :D

if thats any hint that 2012 Mikey is straight. (even if Ciro was joking, still not sure though)

well... there was a time when people thought batman and robin were gay... and the movie Batman and Robin where even the actors joke that it was basically 'batman made gay' lmao. Superman is a better example. That's a character I don't think anyone would ever question that he's gay.

[Leo656]

if a character is straight, they are straight you can't simply make someone gay just so we can have more gays....it isn't right. Instead make a new character.

(you don't simply become gay)



That's not 100% accurate. MANY people are completely hetero for long periods of time and then exhibit gay or bisexual tendencies later on. It's a fluid thing that changes for many people at various points in their lives. For some people, they start one way and then go the other way entirely, others have "phases"; it's an entirely individual thing. Sexual orientation or preference doesn't have a "one size fits all" description. Some people sort of do "become" gay, in so far as at one point in their life it was probably not something they considered and then later on their preference changed. It happens.

There is not sufficient evidence that any of the Turtles were ever "meant" to be straight, gay, in-between or completely asexual. So if one of them "came out", it would in no way be a big deal, because there is about equal "proof" so far to argue either way if you want.

I used to be a little more closed-minded about certain things, I confess. I've never had a problem with gay people, but some people would poke fun at things I liked or characters I liked and call them "gay"; I really like Thundercats, Lion-O specifically, and to get on my nerves some of my friends would be like kids/teenagers are, "You know Lion-O's gay, right?" Or He-Man, same thing, in either case. And they'd go on and give the "proof" and I'd get annoyed, until one day someone got serious and was like "Dude, why does it annoy you? What if it wasn't a joke, and some writer flat-out said 'Lion-O was always supposed to be gay', would you suddenly hate the character? That's stupid." And it's true, that would actually be more stupid than the jokes they were making in the first place, if I were to denounce my fandom over something so insignificant in the big picture.

Same with He-Man, Leonardo, any fictional character I enjoy. Since they are fictional, their personalities are open to change at any point depending on who's writing it, so there always exists the possibility that one day a writer will "out" someone I'm a fan of. Since it happens more frequently these days in comics/movies/TV, I came to the conclusion that it would be immature to stop liking what I like over something like that. I don't think Leo being gay would help his character significantly; but I find it plausible, and if some writer decides one day that's the new status quo, I'll cope.

I do have to apologize to my friends back in the day, though... Upon recent review of the original Thundercats, Lion-O is pretty significantly gay. I must have been in serious denial about that as a kid. :P

[Coola Yagami]

I do like the joke with Stewie playing with a Lion-O and He-Man figure and saying 'see, you make your kids play with half naked muscular men and then you wonder why they grow up gay?' paraphrased of course. lol

[Leo656]

Yeah, case in point. :lol: That skit always cracks me up. I wouldn't doubt it was a slightly contributing factor in some kids' development, though.

[Pterobat]

slightly whiny or high-pitched voice, "wimpy" or "effeminate" mannerisms and behavior, and always played for comic relief.

(looks at her avatar) Huh.

Anyway....

Vernon was never NOT gay; he fits every "Gay '80s Character Criteria" to a T. In fact, he's probably one of the more offensive types, since he was so obnoxiously unpleasant, everyone hated him, and he was mostly useless. Eh, different time, different standards. But it could seriously be argued, without being explicitly stated on-screen, that with Vernon the TMNT franchise has had a gay character since almost the beginning.

Vernon's a jerk, and I know all about "coding" characters in media--I also know that it cuts both ways: if anybody can be gay, than characters who align with stereotypes are still fair game.

Even so, it makes me a bit uncomfortable to declare characters as for-sure one sexuality or the other, unless we hear it straight from the creators. I recognize all the ways Vernon can be read as a gay stereotype, but don't want to set it out there without an official creator's statement to back it up.

[CyberCubed]

Wasn't there a few scenes in the OT where Vernon showed interest in women though? I remember in, "Donatello's Degree" in Season 4 he asked April to give him mouth to mouth after falling into the lake.

I can't recall many other such scenes, though.

[Leo656]

Well Pterobat, pretty much everything I say is kinda tongue-in-cheek, but not everyone is aware of it. So going forward, feel free to chuckle and be sure only about 7 or 9/10 of whatever I say is serious. :) As you said, it's impossible to declaratively state something without some creator input.

Except with Prince Adam. Not He-Man, just Adam. Adam was mad gay, and it's so very obvious to everyone. Lots'a stuff going on with "Masters of the Universe." Yessir.

[Cipher]

Except with Prince Adam. Not He-Man, just Adam. Adam was mad gay, and it's so very obvious to everyone. Lots'a stuff going on with "Masters of the Universe." Yessir.
I just popped in here to say there is one, and only one way to watch "Masters of the Universe," and it's definitely not not as the world's most hilariously over-the-top homosexual awakening allegory.

But that's what makes it special.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Well I've never come across a mean gay person.

I had one corner me in a bathroom at a bar and try to rape me once.

[Leo656]

Cocaine is a helluva drug.

Cipher: :lol: When I was a kid the "subtext" people talk about bothered me, now I just think it's hilarious that so much of the show can be read that way, whether intentional or not. Knowing what I do of the Filmation people, I'm 100% sure that they had NO intention of having anything subversive in "Masters". So it's even MORE hilarious that the main character's alter ego wears pink, avoids women, manual labor and physical confrontation, and that the "real" persona is an uber-macho bodybuilder who runs around bear-hugging bad guys while wearing civilization's first pair of furry bikini briefs (and the eternal stock footage shots of ass thrusting towards the camera... it's one thing when Teela does it, but sheeeeesh! :lol:).

I know for a fact they were "playing it straight", and all that stuff is just... there. That's why it's so hilarious. They were so square they literally had no idea at all how many buttons that show was pressing all at once. Someone could devote an entire article to Man-At-Arms's mustache, alone. :lol: Sometimes what's done by accident is more intriguing than what's done overtly.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Oh c'mon. People don't want the Turtles to be gay doesn't mean they're homophobic.
.

We're doing a "what if future TMNT adaptation depicts a gay Turtle" and you're so against it claiming they're "traditionally straight" even though their girlfriends can be counted in all their decades of different versions of them?


I'm sorry guys, but some of you just really scream homophobia, and I'm disappointed.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

http://leereamsnyder.com/images/uploads/joker-golf-clap.gif

[Candy Kappa]

Since the turtles aren't humans, should they really be boxed as straight or gay only?

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Box Turtles.... lol

[The Big Bad]

dude.....it's like turning Superman(Clark Kent) African American.
if the person was never meant to be African American...then don't make him African American.

Well, Superman wasn't originally meant to fly, either, or to become an icon of American culture, or a killer, and yet here were are. While I think he's a weird case, insofar that I think that part of what makes him work is the idea that he's a person with all the privilege--white, straight, male, able-bodied, able to satisfy his basic needs, beloved by all--and no personal reason to care, who nevertheless truly and meaningfully does (at least in theory) making him a person of color or queer is far from inconceivable, and something I would not at all mind seeing attempted, and the reasons I've heard why he shouldn't have been far from convincing.

like Spiderman, they made Miles Morales an African American/Latino Spiderman. They didn't change Peter Parker's race did they?

No, because Miles was a character entering an already existing story. However, just what would be the problem with making Peter black for a new take? Just how would that compromise his integrity as a character? And no "racists would get into a tizzy over it" is not a valid answer.

Because here's the thing: these characters we're talking about, with take upon take upon take? They get changed all the time. And if the fans that are willing to accept Nick's willing-to-put-somebody's-life-in-danger-to-impress-a-girl version of Donatello, who is miles away from Mirage's take, suddenly start shouting about history and precedent when the possibility of a take where he's queer is suggested, I'm going to question their motives.

(you don't simply become gay)
No, people don't "become" queer: they realize that they always were, or that in addition to liking people of the opposite gender, they also like people that share their own. With some, it's something they realize early on; for others, it can take decades. Heck, even Nick Donny's aggressive Aprilsexuality doesn't entirely rule out eventually discovering that he's bi.


instead of trying to change something you can't.... make a new person that is African American.

Oh, but they do. But what happens if those new characters of color go on to be popular enough to break out into another medium? They get whitewashed. See: Avatar: The Last Airbender. See: The Hunger Games. See: Nolan's Batman films. See: TMNT, and April's magically appearing and disappearing African American phenotype. See: Akira. So if we can't create People of Color versions of existing characters and the People of Color we keep creating are turned white, just how are we supposed to see our experiences reflected?

[TheAnvil]

Since when is the sexuality of a Ninja Turtle relevant to anything?

The parallel that would have to be drawn for it is to do with acceptance. But they already have that "non acceptance" factor in the turtles as they're different from normal humans anyway.

The whole idea is just ridiculous, to be honest.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Funny how we're not supposed to say anything bad about homosexuality, yet there's this big taboo about Turtlecest? Doesn't anyone know that inbreeding is very common among animals, both wild and domesticated? You can ask any zoologist or animal breeder.

[TheBlueTurtle1]

TBH NO! I think it would seemed forced and as if they were trying to prove some sort of point. Just leave well alone. I like the idea of all 4 turtles having a crush on april, and their romantic ties need not go any deeper than that. They are supposed to be living a monk like existence, focused on Nnjutsu. There is plenty of other Media that cover mixed culture, homosexuality etc.

[The Big Bad]

Since when is the sexuality of a Ninja Turtle relevant to anything?

Peter Laird found it relevant, when he had Michelangelo begin a relationship with Serilicus. Steve Murphy found it relevant enough in TMNT Adventures that he had Raph get married. The people behind the 1987 and 2012 certainly found it relevant, as did the people behind the original movie, where they had the turtles referring to April as a "babe".
Overall, I'd say it's been far more relevant than, say, the turtles iconic, if mostly cosmetic, bandannas have been.

I've always found it weird to hear anyone make the claim that the turtles' sexuality doesn't matter--and to wit, only when it's suggested that said sexuality need not be "straight": it suggests either a lack of awareness of the franchises' history, or straight up mendacity. I've no time for people in the second group. I've you're in the first one, though? Read the first paragraph.

[Coola Yagami]

Since when is the sexuality of a Ninja Turtle relevant to anything?

The parallel that would have to be drawn for it is to do with acceptance. But they already have that "non acceptance" factor in the turtles as they're different from normal humans anyway.

The whole idea is just ridiculous, to be honest.

Why does someone being gay mean showing their sexuality. Mikey checking out kala and don obsessing over April is already them showing their sexuality. People have to separate one from the other. A person can be gay in a kids show without them actually doing the deed. Don is straight and is no closer to boning April than Casey ever was in the 2k3 series. The most they'd ever do is kiss and hold hands. It's still a kids show. So leave actual sex out if it.

It seems whenever something unacceptable enters the scene people go right into sex. The moment we heard don liked April, in came all the beastiality and sex jokes? Why? Even if they did become a thing I seriously doubt were gonna have a scene where mike can't sleep due the loud banging and April moaning sounds. The most they'll do us hold hands and an occasional kiss if any. With rumors of Casey coming in to be with April... Where are all the jokes there? Why aren't people making wisecracks about Casey nailing April between classes?

It's just weird how that works. Spider-Man can love mj in a cartoon yet we never see them do anything past dating in a kids cartoon. If he's gay suddenly there must be some deleted scene of him blowing venom out there.

It's a kids cartoon. Gay straight bi or turtle/human love, all that is fine but leave sex out of it.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I think that the point of the thread is that there are other things common to being "gay" besides who one is attracted to/certain sexual acts. Like being good in the arts, keeping a nice lawn, etc. So on that front, it might be interesting to have a gay Ninja Turtle.

[Jester]

Keeping a nice lawn is a gay stereotype?

[Hero]

Does there need to be one?

[TheAnvil]

Peter Laird found it relevant, when he had Michelangelo begin a relationship with Serilicus. Steve Murphy found it relevant enough in TMNT Adventures that he had Raph get married. The people behind the 1987 and 2012 certainly found it relevant, as did the people behind the original movie, where they had the turtles referring to April as a "babe".
Overall, I'd say it's been far more relevant than, say, the turtles iconic, if mostly cosmetic, bandannas have been.

I've always found it weird to hear anyone make the claim that the turtles' sexuality doesn't matter--and to wit, only when it's suggested that said sexuality need not be "straight": it suggests either a lack of awareness of the franchises' history, or straight up mendacity. I've no time for people in the second group. I've you're in the first one, though? Read the first paragraph.

What I meant was that it's not important. There's a subtle hint of one or more of the Turtles liking April in some of the different media's. But that would have worked with or without the romantic element behind it. They'll always like April as they are friends, so they'll always be worried for her safety. The main element of the turtles is that they're heroes, fighting evil. There's simply no need to change one of them gay (apart from pleasing gay turtles fans).

Plus, it's always a terrible idea to take a character that has an established trait (in this case that none of the turtles are homosexual) and turn it into the opposite. I don't want to see a gay turtle anymore than I'd want to see a white Blade The Vampire Hunter, a black Wolverine, a chinese Batman or a character who was invented as gay to be straight (IE Northstar).

For the record, I have nothing against gay people, but it does tick me off when stuff like this comes up. People get nasty and defensive over it if you don't like the idea, and suddenly you're "homophobic" or "insensitive".

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

My last word on this ridiculous subject:

Making any or all of the Turtles homosexual would serve no purpose other than pandering, and it wouldn't work. I can point out a few instances of other comics that decided to be "diverse":

Peanuts: In the 1960's, Franklin, a black schoolmate, was introduced. Other than his coloring, there was nothing at all special about him, and he faded away.

Beetle Bailey: In 1970, Lieutenant Flap was introduced, and he wasn't just a soldier with black skin; his race did factor into the scenario. People complained about how he was, e. g. sometimes wearing flashy clothes and having an Afro hairstyle, which would become outdated in later years. So damned if you do, damned if you don't.

In other words, there is nothing to gain and everything to lose by introducing homosexuality into the Turtles scenario. What next, April and Splinter deciding to have baby mutant rats together?

[Redeemer]

Did we seriously go 6 pages without one mention of Vernon? Inexcusable.

Look up above, I mentioned it a few minutes ago :lol:
I was thinking the same thing actually.

[VaughnMichael]

Well I've never come across a mean gay person.
There are plenty trust me, I've dated most of them.:lol:
I think that the point of the thread is that there are other things common to being "gay" besides who one is attracted to/certain sexual acts. Like being good in the arts, keeping a nice lawn, etc. So on that front, it might be interesting to have a gay Ninja Turtle.
You just won facepalm of the day, congrats John!

[MrTMNT2012]

This is officially the dumbest poll ever created in the history of the forum. This also leads me to think that 13 people are mentally disabled, or completely oblivious to everything that resembles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

[ObiWanFan4life]

This is officially the dumbest poll ever created in the history of the forum. This also leads me to think that 13 people are mentally disabled, or completely oblivious to everything that resembles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

Whoa, you don't think that's a little......harsh?

[VaughnMichael]

Whoa, you don't think that's a little......harsh?
Nah, they're protected behind a computer force field.

[Tazi]

This is officially the dumbest poll ever created in the history of the forum. This also leads me to think that 13 people are mentally disabled, or completely oblivious to everything that resembles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

You know that "officially the dumbest" and "13 people are mentally disabled" are not arguments, but personal attacks, right?

In the history of the forum? You know that from the one year you spent here as registered user?

[MrTMNT2012]

I can't imagine a poll more pointless than this and I'm not personally attacking those 13 people, I'm just saying there must be something wrong here: either they're actually mentally slow or just plain oblivious to the integrity of the TMNT franchise!

[Coola Yagami]

Kinda think making the turtles into reincarnated Japanese children or aliens is a bigger more dramatic change than making one of them gay. The gay aspect can be downplayed and subtlety mentioned, the reincarnation and alien thing changes a whole lot of backstory.

[Bry]

For a thread advocating progressive thinking, it sure is full of people stereotyping. Only gay dudes can be sensitive? OK.

Exactly. And more "I don't want to see it/hear about it" attitudes than I was expecting. :ohwell:

To be fair, it doesn't make them *not* homophobic, either. What makes it appear that way, is that many people who are vehemently opposed to the idea don't have much reason besides, "I just don't like it." Some people act like it would be something earth-shattering, or that it would drive them away from continuing to be fans of the franchise. That's what comes off as homophobic. There's the "It wouldn't add anything" argument, which can be valid, but the "it would ruin everything" p.o.v. some people seem to have is what comes off as homophobic.

Thank you for this.

[Bry]

This is officially the dumbest poll ever created in the history of the forum. This also leads me to think that 13 people are mentally disabled, or completely oblivious to everything that resembles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

I prefer the term "open-minded", but hey, however you choose to see it. :roll:

I can't imagine a poll more pointless than this and I'm not personally attacking those 13 people, I'm just saying there must be something wrong here: either they're actually mentally slow or just plain oblivious to the integrity of the TMNT franchise!

So you're equating someone holding a personal opinion that you disagree with as being "mentally slow", and somehow feel that a franchise's "integrity" depends on the hypothetical sexual preferences of its fictional characters?

Nice attitude. You'll go far with that.

[Bry]

dude.....it's like turning Superman(Clark Kent) African American.
if the person was never meant to be African American...then don't make him African American.

instead of trying to change something you can't.... make a new person that is African American.

like Spiderman, they made Miles Morales an African American/Latino Spiderman. They didn't change Peter Parker's race did they?

if a character is straight, they are straight you can't simply make someone gay just so we can have more gays....it isn't right. Instead make a new character.
Those are characters that were created 50-75 years ago and were designed to represent a time that, let's be real, had a long way to go in regards to equality. Pop culture is meant to evolve and represent/speak to the times we're living in. Sticking with overwhelmingly straight/white/male characters for the sake of keeping them "the same" does a disservice to culture and also the characters themselves.

Are there essential components of Superman or Spider-Man's characters that require them to be white? How about the TMNT? What about those characters requires them to be straight? "It's always been that way" isn't good enough - these characters have been rebooted and re-imagined countless times. So what else is there?

[Coola Yagami]

Those are characters that were created 50-75 years ago and were designed to represent a time that, let's be real, had a long way to go in regards to equality. Pop culture is meant to evolve and represent/speak to the times we're living in. Sticking with overwhelmingly straight/white/male characters for the sake of keeping them "the same" does a disservice to culture and also the characters themselves.

Are there essential components of Superman or Spider-Man's characters that require them to be white? How about the TMNT? What about those characters requires them to be straight? "It's always been that way" isn't good enough - these characters have been rebooted and re-imagined countless times. So what else is there?

Basically close minded idiots that don't like it 'just because'.

[MrTMNT2012]

I'm not even gonna waste my time with this thread... It's the same thing with Andrew Garfield saying "Why shouldn't Spider-Man be gay?" - WHY WOULD HE BE GAY? There's no logical reason behind it, it's just being different for the sake of being different!

It has nothing to do with gay people, it's about the integrity of these characters and nowhere in the history of Turtles has there ever been a moment where it would have benefited from making the central characters gay!

Hell, I could imagine the possibiliy of a gay Casey Jones because that simply allows for more choices and development we haven't seen before, it's still a terrible direction but it would work to some degree, but gay Turtles? Who in their right minds would think that's a smart choice?

[BabyTurtles]

Basically close minded idiots that don't like it 'just because'.

no I have my reasons not to want a homosexual turtle
1) I'm a Christian and it is against my religion (don't kill me all at once)
2) my ships/pairings/OTP's will sink XD (okay that one isn't a really good reason but still)

but that's why I watch cartoons...so I don't have to deal with this stuff....
(and why I stay away from reality shows and junk...)

either way...I want the turtles to be straight because it just seems to fit them.
(but I guess that can be "just because" also)

and if they HAVE to introduce someone gay I would like it to be someone else...

well those are my reasons.....they probably might seem dumb to people...but they aren't to me...

[ObiWanFan4life]

Very well spoken.

[CyberCubed]

Do people really bring in religion against homosexuality? I don't understand why Christians are so against gay's. Makes no sense.

I'm not Christian so I wouldn't know, but using religion against gay people is nonsense. Most religion in general is nonsense.

[BabyTurtles]

Do people really bring in religion against homosexuality? I don't understand why Christians are so against gay's. Makes no sense.

I'm not Christian so I wouldn't know, but using religion against gay people is nonsense. Most religion in general is nonsense.

I'm sorry my religion confuses you.... :(
(if you would like to know more you can PM me)
but I'm not going to explain it here :D

[Bry]

I'm not even gonna waste my time with this thread... It's the same thing with Andrew Garfield saying "Why shouldn't Spider-Man be gay?" - WHY WOULD HE BE GAY? There's no logical reason behind it, it's just being different for the sake of being different!

It has nothing to do with gay people, it's about the integrity of these characters and nowhere in the history of Turtles has there ever been a moment where it would have benefited from making the central characters gay!

Hell, I could imagine the possibiliy of a gay Casey Jones because that simply allows for more choices and development we haven't seen before, it's still a terrible direction but it would work to some degree, but gay Turtles? Who in their right minds would think that's a smart choice?

Re-asking my question from earlier: What about these characters requires them to be straight? "It's always been that way" isn't good enough - these characters have been rebooted and re-imagined/re-interpreted countless times without damaging their popularity or their appeal. So what else is there? I'm legitimately curious.

You ask "why would he be gay?" And my answer to that is: because many people are gay in real life, through no control of their own, and that experience deserves to be represented and explored in our popular culture. Spider-Man in particular is frequently portrayed as an outsider, misunderstood and hated by others due to their prejudices and ignorance. His experiences (including gaining his powers and discovering his personal identity around the time of puberty) already make it a solid metaphor.

So here's my question in response: why would he be straight?

[VaughnMichael]

I see a lock in this threads future.

[BabyTurtles]

I see a lock in this threads future.

good chance XD

[ButterflyBoy]

Bry, I love how you've put it. I couldn't agree more.

[BubblyShell22]

Yep, I can see this thread being locked, too. Getting way too heated.

[Pterobat]

good chance XD

Let's hope, because DAMMIT.

[Bry]

Bry, I love how you've put it. I couldn't agree more.

Ha, thanks!

I hope the thread doesn't get locked. As long as it stays civil (or gets civil again), it's definitely a worthwhile discussion, IMO.

[plastroncafe]

Lots and lots of Bi Erasure going on in here.
Not to mention homophobia, sexism...but I digress.

Raph's a one turtle straight pride parade, or he's one massive closet case.
Don's asexual.
Leo buys into that whole "Courtly Unrequited Love" thing.
And Mike? Well...the TMNT RPG called him a "hedonist" so I think there's your answer.

As for all the cries of Tokenism NOOOES!
The only way to get rid of Tokenism is to add more of whatever it is being tokenized. Yes Franklin was the Token Black Kid in the Peanuts comic. You know what would have made him not? MORE BLACK KIDS.

[Stingray69]

Mean and Has a temper? O he's so obviously gay.

Sensitive and writes? That's a gay orgy waiting to happen.

Swings a big sword and bosses other males around? He's a big o ball of homosexuality now isn't he?

Wears purple and plays with a stick? O yea his a big ole ******.

Wtf is wrong with some of you people? I can't believe some of the BS comments. Since when did personalty or hobbies have any direct correlation to ones sexuality?

[Luckyday]

Lots and lots of Bi Erasure going on in here.
Not to mention homophobia, sexism...but I digress.

Raph's a one turtle straight pride parade, or he's one massive closet case.
Don's asexual.
Leo buys into that whole "Courtly Unrequited Love" thing.
And Mike? Well...the TMNT RPG called him a "hedonist" so I think there's your answer.

As for all the cries of Tokenism NOOOES!
The only way to get rid of Tokenism is to add more of whatever it is being tokenized. Yes Franklin was the Token Black Kid in the Peanuts comic. You know what would have made him not? MORE BLACK KIDS.

I would have prefer calling him a pansexual but that's just me. :D

[plastroncafe]

I don't know that pansexual was a word most people knew in the mid-1980s. Heck, I'd go so far as to say it's a word not enough people know now.

[BabyTurtles]

this is getting crazy!

can't we just have our headcanons.......and let the canon material be canon :-?

[plastroncafe]

That's the thing, even canon has interpretations.
Just because Leonardo and Radical had a love affair, that doesn't mean Leo was solely straight. Nor does it mean that Radical was only straight.

That's what I mean when I say "Bi Erasure."
When you limit the options to only gay or only straight...you over shadow people like me, who are neither.

[Gin Rummy]

Reading this thread is hilarious!

Me myself, I'm straight. Although, I do support the gay rights movement heavily. All love is cool. 8) That being said I don't want to see a gay turtle. Not because I find it offensive but, because I never saw any of the Turtles as gay.

[BabyTurtles]

That's the thing, even canon has interpretations.
Just because Leonardo and Radical had a love affair, that doesn't mean Leo was solely straight. Nor does it mean that Radical was only straight.

That's what I mean when I say "Bi Erasure."
When you limit the options to only gay or only straight...you over shadow people like me, who are neither.

........okay...but I think theres such a thing as looking TOO deep into it.....
not everything has a hidden meaning.....

if Leo goes out with a girl....I'm betting he's most likely straight....
if Mikey is sensitive but likes the ladies...and is never shown to like dudes...that means he's not Bi...it just means he's a straight sensitive guy.

[plastroncafe]

Conversely...maybe it's you who's looking at things too deeply.

[Jester]

Cs4Gj7JsET4

[Blossombrooks]

The very fact that everyone here is debating this issue shows you just how open to interpretation the turtles sexuality is, we all see it differently. I'm not opposed to the idea of a gay, straight or bi turtle but hell what I am opposed to is putting a label on it. If it happened in one of the tmnt universes fine but don't make it all about tying it up in a neat little box, it's a life choice and life ain't that simple. Leave it ambigious.

[BabyTurtles]

Conversely...maybe it's you who's looking at things too deeply.

okay, agree to disagree?

http://31.media.tumblr.com/dc701e6a78e25b3aa80848bc115305ce/tumblr_mloaufT3XG1ryjwzno1_400.gif


(...I just wanted an excuse to use this gif XD)

[plastroncafe]

Sure, BabyTurtles! We can totally agree that you're as equally dismissive as my opinion as I am of yours.

Blossombrooks it's not a life choice.

People show their true colors when topics like this one comes up.
"I love gays, I just wouldn't want my favorite character to be one."
Why not? What's so terrible about it?

"It'd be like shoving it down our throats!"
Assumed straightness shoves that down everyone's throats, and those same people don't complain.

[Coola Yagami]

I see a lock in this threads future.

I doubt the mods are that petty and homophobic. No one is getting out of line. Why lock it?

[Powder]

Because sexual/political/religious (all of which is in this thread) discussion often causes upset. Think of a lock as a preemptive strike. The Volcanic Asteroid was closed for a reason.

[Bauer536]

If someone wants a gay turtle, it should be a new original character, NOT any of the four main turtles. That, I will be okay with. As long as Leo, Don, and the rest of the gang are not gay, I'll be fine. But if someone wants a gay character, he/she needs to be new.

[Coola Yagami]

Also lets leave religion and such out if it. No none lives a celibate life before marriage anymore. I'm a catholic but I live in the real world. I doubt God is so petty that he would condemn a good decent honest hardworking gay guy cause 'lol he's gay'. To me homosexuality is as much a sin as sex before marriage. I doubt we'd go for hell for that. I consider the absolute worst sins to be cold blooded murder and rape. Without remorse.

I see it as a balance. You can be a liar and maybe a theif that repents but as long as you live the good life otherwise and help your fellow man you're good to go. I doubt someone who is a basic Ned Flanders would go to hell cause 'oh btw he's gay'. It's stupid and I fail to see how more people don't see that.

So lets leave religion out of this. If homosexuality is such a sin why would God purposely doom so many people by purposely making them born gay.

[tmntgoldcoin]

Have we exhausted all TMNT topics and resorted to discussing the sexual oriental of cartoon characters. Sorry but this thread is ridiculous.

[Coola Yagami]

Have we exhausted all TMNT topics and resorted to discussing the sexual oriental of cartoon characters. Sorry but this thread is ridiculous.

So all cartoon characters have to be asexual? Have April and Casey never get married and die virgins? I guess all yoshi and tang did were hold hands? That sure was worth have shredder try to kill them over.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

If I can put my own two cents on this, I've never been all that keen on changing a character's sexuality (or really, anything else about them) just for the sake of being more PC or diverse. For that, I prefer new characters to be introduced, as I do like diversity... I just don't really like it when an established character is changed simply for the sake of it. I feel like this topic could be a little bit of a sensitive issue, and I hope nobody judges me based on my opinions regarding this. I really don't want anyone thinking I'm homophobic. :sweatdro:

[Powder]

Also lets leave religion and such out if it. No none lives a celibate life before marriage anymore. I'm a catholic but I live in the real world. I doubt God is so petty that he would condemn a good decent honest hardworking gay guy cause 'lol he's gay'. To me homosexuality is as much a sin as sex before marriage. I doubt we'd go for hell for that. I consider the absolute worst sins to be cold blooded murder and rape. Without remorse.

I see it as a balance. You can be a liar and maybe a theif that repents but as long as you live the good life otherwise and help your fellow man you're good to go. I doubt someone who is a basic Ned Flanders would go to hell cause 'oh btw he's gay'. It's stupid and I fail to see how more people don't see that.

So lets leave religion out of this. If homosexuality is such a sin why would God purposely doom so many people by purposely making them born gay.

I like how you say to leave religion out of it and then open a huge can of worms that will invite people to argue with what you're saying. Genius. This is why the thread will be locked.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I guess the best way for me to answer is this.

My favorite character is Raphael. I don't care if he's straight or gay. If they do something and said "Okay, he's gay now" then fine.

Just keep his character the same in this way:

He's a guy who kicks ass, is a badass, but deep down loves & cares for his family. He'd kill & die for his family a heartbeat.

As long as that is intact (as well as fun banter between Mikey & Raph, I love that stuff. Especially in the 2k3 series), then I don't care if he's gay, straight, or both.

[CyberCubed]

Lol @ people taking religion so seriously. Honestly most homophobia in the world comes from conservative Christians.

[Bry]

I guess the best way for me to answer is this.

My favorite character is Raphael. I don't care if he's straight or gay. If they do something and said "Okay, he's gay now" then fine.

Just keep his character the same in this way:

He's a guy who kicks ass, is a badass, but deep down loves & cares for his family. He'd kill & die for his family a heartbeat.

As long as that is intact (as well as fun banter between Mikey & Raph, I love that stuff. Especially in the 2k3 series), then I don't care if he's gay, straight, or both.

Exactly. Someone's sexuality is only one aspect of their identity. It's an important one, but in this case, it wouldn't alter any other espect of their character that doesn't revolve around their sexuality, and it doesn't have to completely define who they are.

That's the thing, even canon has interpretations.
Just because Leonardo and Radical had a love affair, that doesn't mean Leo was solely straight. Nor does it mean that Radical was only straight.

That's what I mean when I say "Bi Erasure."
When you limit the options to only gay or only straight...you over shadow people like me, who are neither.

This is a very good point.

[Jester]

I like how you say to leave religion out of it and then open a huge can of worms that will invite people to argue with what you're saying. Genius. This is why the thread will be locked.
I was actually gonna respond to that post...but decided to scrap the post, because...well...can of worms.

Lol @ people taking religion so seriously. Honestly most homophobia in the world comes from conservative Christians.
..or you know, people like you. Seriously, re-read some of your completely idiotic posts in this very thread.

dMfZFl00ReU

Can we get a thread lock...

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Lol @ people taking religion so seriously. Honestly most homophobia in the world comes from conservative Christians.

I'm sure there are plenty of people in Islamic and Communist countries who would be very surprised to hear that. None of the people I've met who hate homosexuals were either conservative or religious. In fact quite the opposite.

In any way, here's a proposal for people who want a gay Turtle: there's plenty of stories/pictures/etc. out on the Web that will cater to any wish fulfillment desire you have.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Lots and lots of Bi Erasure going on in here.
Not to mention homophobia, sexism...but I digress.

Raph's a one turtle straight pride parade, or he's one massive closet case.
Don's asexual.
Leo buys into that whole "Courtly Unrequited Love" thing.
And Mike? Well...the TMNT RPG called him a "hedonist" so I think there's your answer.

As for all the cries of Tokenism NOOOES!
The only way to get rid of Tokenism is to add more of whatever it is being tokenized. Yes Franklin was the Token Black Kid in the Peanuts comic. You know what would have made him not? MORE BLACK KIDS.

Or, you might simply had several token black kids. :lol:

[Cipher]

Re-asking my question from earlier: What about these characters requires them to be straight? "It's always been that way" isn't good enough - these characters have been rebooted and re-imagined/re-interpreted countless times without damaging their popularity or their appeal. So what else is there? I'm legitimately curious.

You ask "why would he be gay?" And my answer to that is: because many people are gay in real life, through no control of their own, and that experience deserves to be represented and explored in our popular culture. Spider-Man in particular is frequently portrayed as an outsider, misunderstood and hated by others due to their prejudices and ignorance. His experiences (including gaining his powers and discovering his personal identity around the time of puberty) already make it a solid metaphor.

So here's my question in response: why would he be straight?
Best serious post in the thread.

Anyway, to the people who are extremely against this idea (but not against the idea of the Turtles displaying heterosexuality, as they have at least once in most versions), I'm going to actually make a harder-lined prediction:

If any media franchise you are a fan of right now exists forty years from now, unless we see society as we know it collapse, you will see existing straight characters be re-imagined as gay. Not "might." Will. Modern history has a liberal bias. Ask yourself if that would seriously bother you enough to stop enjoying it, and then ask yourself why. It is absolutely going to happen.

Can we get a thread lock...
I hate it when these kinds of threads get locked because it curtails discussion.

If you're going to close something, close the millionth "Who is your favorite Turtle?" and "Which Turtle would _____?" threads.

If I can put my own two cents on this, I've never been all that keen on changing a character's sexuality (or really, anything else about them) just for the sake of being more PC or diverse. For that, I prefer new characters to be introduced, as I do like diversity... I just don't really like it when an established character is changed simply for the sake of it. I feel like this topic could be a little bit of a sensitive issue, and I hope nobody judges me based on my opinions regarding this. I really don't want anyone thinking I'm homophobic. :sweatdro:
This is the comic book fan's go-to reaction everytime someone mentions changing sexuality or race, but as Bry already pointed out, these characters change all the damn time, often radically, with each new interpretation. When we're talking about franchises spanning multiple decades, they see changing social attitudes that would finally allow for depictions of characters excluded by default at the time of their inception. Just adding new characters, while great, isn't quite as inclusive as integrating them into the core cast, which has already been established. And in the case of Turtles, it really is, and probably always will be in the minds of its readers/viewers, a seven- or eight-man show.

It's not really about being "PC." It's about reflecting 1) reality, because gay people and non-white people exist, and 2) modern social attitudes (and 3), yeah, wanting to provide some positive representation for other demographics is A-OK).

Saying everything else can change but not race or sexuality no way nuh-uh no how is keeping a cast artificially stagnant for ... what? Adhering to social biases that existed decades back? The forces that ensured all characters are white/straight/whatever are the same ones that would push their change in the present (social attitudes), only even more artificial since they don't reflect real demographics.

What's the big deal? Why do those few factors have to be different than everything else?

Or, you might simply had several token black kids. :lol:
Which, unless they're viciously Vaudevillian stereotypes, is still better than no black kids?

lol?

[Machias Banshee]

Hoo boy.... let's calm down everyone. We don't need to get vicious with each other. Debate is fine, but drop the personal attacks and religious jabs. We've tried this a lot of times, only to have the threads burning down in flames. I would hate to see some friendships on here get torn up because of this thread.. :ohwell:


And whoever is putting the ridiculous tags on, knock it off... middle school antics don't make you look any better.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

This is the comic book fan's go-to reaction everytime someone mentions changing sexuality or race, but as Bry already pointed out, these characters change all the damn time, often radically, with each new interpretation. When we're talking about franchises spanning multiple decades, they see changing social attitudes that would finally allow for depictions of characters excluded by default at the time of their inception. Just adding new characters, while great, isn't quite as inclusive as integrating them into the core cast, which has already been established. And in the case of Turtles, it really is, and probably always will be in the minds of its readers/viewers, a seven- or eight-man show.

It's not really about being "PC." It's about reflecting 1) reality, because gay people and non-white people exist, and 2) modern social attitudes (and 3), yeah, wanting to provide some positive representation for other demographics is A-OK).

Saying everything else can change but not race or sexuality no way nuh-uh no how is keeping a cast artificially stagnant for ... what? Adhering to social biases that existed decades back? The forces that ensured all characters are white/straight/whatever are the same ones that would push their change in the present (social attitudes), only even more artificial since they don't reflect real demographics.

What's the big deal? Why do those few factors have to be different than everything else?I get what you're saying. And I know there's different interpretations of characters all the time, but for me it actually isn't really different, and you might be misinterpreting me a bit. Michelangelo, for example, is nothing like his original interpretation in the Mirage comics, and honestly, I don't know if I really like any of the other interpretations of the character as much. Or for that matter, Karai's different interpretations, either.

It's not just about sexuality or race (and I say this as someone who isn't White, and has face plenty of discrimination for various things about myself, including my ethnicity/race). But as far as changing an established character to represent something other than White or straight to me seems like a bit of a disservice to those who are to be represented. As if to say that a character who is created with those attributes in mind can't be accepted on their own merits, so instead a character that's already established themselves without those should be changed to better meet that diversity criteria. Because that's the only way anyone will accept a character of that specific representation. That's more or less the message that I get. Plus, it just feels like a disingenuous gesture.

I'm probably rambling now, but I guess I don't feel any stronger about changing a character's sexuality or race/ethnicity than I do about any other aspect of the character. I just feel it's as unnecessary as any other change. That being said, I probably would feel stronger about it if a character is already representing a minority of some kind and then is changed from that (I hate White Baxter Stockman, for example), so maybe I'm just being a hypocrite at this point.

EDIT: To clarify, it's much less that I'm against change in a character (I know there's been tons of different interpretations of different characters, and that's even outside of TMNT), and more that I wonder if the reasons for the changes in the first place can't just be met with a completely new character. I dunno, I don't expect people to agree with me, so maybe I should just shut up now.

EDIT x2: With tempers apparently flaring all over the place and this being such a touchy subject, maybe this thread should be locked?

[Cipher]

EDIT: To clarify, it's much less that I'm against change in a character (I know there's been tons of different interpretations of different characters, and that's even outside of TMNT), and more that I wonder if the reasons for the changes in the first place can't just be met with a completely new character. I dunno, I don't expect people to agree with me, so maybe I should just shut up now.
No, no, that's all totally fair, and I probably included some presumptions in my last post I shouldn't have (though those arguments do pop up all time time).

I guess I'm with you in that I think it would be ideal if we could diversify casts just by adding new characters, as it would give those non-white/non-straight cast members an identity of their own. It's just that new characters are a hard sell with any sufficiently established property, so often the best bet is to work those changes into existing ones, especially since the only reason they weren't present in the first place was due wholly to playing toward social bigotry.

But I totally understand where you're coming from, and honestly, as a straight, white, cis-gendered guy, you've more right than me to say what would and wouldn't be respectful representation.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

No, no, that's all totally fair, and I probably included some presumptions in my last post I shouldn't have (though those arguments do pop up all time time).

I guess I'm with you in that I think it would be ideal if we could diversify casts just by adding new characters, as it would give those non-white/non-straight cast members an identity of their own. It's just that new characters are a hard sell with any sufficiently established property, so often the best bet is to work those changes into existing ones, especially since the only reason they weren't present in the first place was due wholly to playing toward social bigotry.

But I totally understand where you're coming from, and honestly, as a straight, white, cis-gendered guy, you've more right than me to say what would and wouldn't be respectful representation.

The Turtles cater to an action/adventure crowd; they're not about sexuality or diversity.

If you want a comic about diversity, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Pals) is where you should go. If you want a comic about sexuality, I'm not about to post any links to them here.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

The more that I think about this subject matter, though, the more that I think I probably take this on a case by case basis. Because I realize that I have no trouble at all with Zangief from Street Fighter being gay, even if that may not have been the intent way back in 1991 (but became part of the character over time, even if not as obvious in Western material). But maybe it's because I view that more as character development as opposed to just changing a character? I dunno. And before anyone makes assumptions, Zangief is one of my favorite characters from Street Fighter.

[Coola Yagami]

The thing is people have to get the whole gay stereotype of being super flamey and fabulous out of their minds. Again, things like being aliens and reincarnated Japanese children make more bigger changes than making a character gay.

Again I point to 2012 Mikey. Let's say it was officially stated he was gay. Would that small detail have changed anything at all from what we already saw in season 1? ANYTHING at all? No. And in a show that is more about action than romance, we don't need any extra scenes shoe-horned in there to openly express he's gay. And there is no need for any to make the character gay.

Now the other examples do cause bigger changes and such. Mikey as an alien (hell the others too) would need set up and explaining how they got to earth and why they're the last 4 of their race. Mikey as a reincarnated Japanese kid brings in flashbacks of his formal life and so forth, even the IDW comic has him suddenly knowing how to read and understand Japanese 'just because' due to his past life.

But even then, people would even openly embrace alien turtles than a gay one. Even though the gay thing would be a minor change that doesn't call for any uneccesary attention, and the alien thing would completely change the very foundation of the character.

[Cipher]

they're not about sexuality or diversity.
http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/942731.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081119220153/tmnt/images/d/d3/Mona-Lisa.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lVkNgE0e17Y/TVyQ4gnX2JI/AAAAAAAAFTg/EytqkBkn-fo/s400/GetARoom01.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yAyEJAdzGnk/UUpKni5nwXI/AAAAAAAAKXk/JdSqLH0NiYI/s320/20-4.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/e3e7c1a0c0a554e8594ab4deb73f0cd5/tumblr_mqm1l0fT7X1r7hwpmo1_500.png
http://miragelicensing.com/comics/archie/70/4.jpg
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091121144960/tmnt/images/1/13/April_wedding.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/6f1b3b7903113d93503a35336c5ee4e8/tumblr_ml9nxvbPz21qhzqtio3_1280.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120525163530/tmnt/de/images/0/00/TMNT_Tang_Shen_Yoshi.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091123210006/tmnt/images/8/81/Mitsu.jpg

So what's it doing in there all the time?

[Avatar Yuffie]

I guess the best way for me to answer is this.

My favorite character is Raphael. I don't care if he's straight or gay. If they do something and said "Okay, he's gay now" then fine.

Just keep his character the same in this way:

He's a guy who kicks ass, is a badass, but deep down loves & cares for his family. He'd kill & die for his family a heartbeat.

As long as that is intact (as well as fun banter between Mikey & Raph, I love that stuff. Especially in the 2k3 series), then I don't care if he's gay, straight, or both.

Precisely.

Heck, Raph might not even talk about his love life. He just likes guys. It won't "ruin" him. Just like Archie Raph marrying a coyote and being a furry didn't ruin his future adaptations.

[Coola Yagami]

Precisely.

Heck, Raph might not even talk about his love life. He just likes guys. It won't "ruin" him. Just like Archie Raph marrying a coyote and being a furry didn't ruin his future adaptations.

I kinda think being a furry doesn't really apply when the person is question is also a mutated humanoid talking animal....

[Avatar Yuffie]

I kinda think being a furry doesn't really apply when the person is question is also a mutated humanoid talking animal....

lol, when you put it that way.

Anyways, my point is, if Raph having a anthropomorphic fox girlfriend and she didn't become essential to enforce Raph's sexual identity in TNM/2k3/2k7/2k12 so on. I don't see why people would go nuts if him being gay in one tmnt universe made it a disservice for him.

[Coola Yagami]

lol, when you put it that way.

Anyways, my point is, if Raph having a anthropomorphic fox girlfriend and she didn't become essential to enforce Raph's sexual identity in TNM/2k3/2k7/2k12 so on. I don't see why people would go nuts if him being gay in one tmnt universe made it a disservice for him.

Exactly, Raph never had a love interest in 2K3. Whatever people think he had with Joi, I'm sure they never as much as held hands.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Yeah, I was never a fan of "girl standing nearby = love interest!" logic.

I'd like them to be friends/interested with each other/actually dated first.

[Leo656]

Cipher: I actually agree 100% with what you said earlier about how in a few decades, a lot of fictional characters we already know are gonna be "turned", because that's what happens in fiction. Characters evolve to better reflect the era they exist in. And in a group setting of three or more main characters, like with the TMNT, it becomes a mathematical certainty at some point. And creating secondary characters who "happen to be gay" so as not to "soil" the "purity" of the main cast is an impotent effort, ultimately, because once those characters outlive their usefulness as a "Look How Progressive We Are" plot device, they often tend to be shuffled into the background. It's a step forward, but a half-hearted one. For it to be sincere, it would be better off as a main character, or else it would have less impact. I do predict one day there is a likelihood of it happening, but since TMNT is so sacrosanct to some people, I think the writers will take the "new secondary character with a BIG SECRET" angle first at some point, so as not to offend TOO many people.

I'm amazed how one-dimensional people want their fictional entertainment to be. I hear a common refrain from many, "TMNT is just an action-adventure story; nothing else belongs there." Really? Because in talking to people, I've heard a LOT of things that make TMNT appealing, to kids, to parents, to everyone. To some people, it's a parable about persecution against anyone who is "different", to others it's an exploration of the adopted or simply non-traditional family unit, and to some it's just a story about ninjas who happen to be turtles. There's a LOT going on in TMNT, and frankly, the fact that it's so multi-dimensional is a big part of why it appeals to me. I have zero knowledge of martial arts and only slightly more of traditional Japanese culture, I'm not an expert on turtles or reptiles in general... on the surface, it would seem like TMNT has little to no appeal for me. And yet, it's one of the very favorite things in my life, more for the fact that it is far more than the sum of its parts, and works on many layers simultaneously. To me, as "just" an action-adventure story with ninjas, it's boring. It is BETTER for its ability to take mundane ideas, like family, friends, and yes, even relationships, and view them through the skewed prism of the TMNT "universe". I know it is MAINLY an action story, and I respect that to some people that's the thing they like most about TMNT, but I can't see it as being that and only that. I don't think people really mean that.

What I think some people object to with regards to relationships in TMNT as a whole, is their own fear that such subject matter would come to overshadow the rest or become the sole focus of the book/property, and I highly doubt that. Mostly because it's already been done several times, to varying degrees of success. People can say what they want about the Archie book, and they have (and will) about Ninjara, but the truth is that the arc between her and Raphael was one of the deepest and most creative things ever done with Raph's character in any media. It explored areas of his personality that never get any showcase. It grew the character. It gave *consequence* to his eternal "I'm pretty F'n Mad all the time" shtick, in that he developed a deep connection with someone outside from his immediate family or April (which is a fairly big deal, given how isolated they are and how few friends they, especially Raph, generally have), and eventually ruined it all because, deep down, he's just Kind Of An A$$hole. I was mad the series ended when it did, because I was seriously looking forward to seeing how Raph would be affected by the whole thing, the possibility for some introspection on his part, for example. Anything besides the same old "RAPH SMASH!" development he usually gets. The book and the character were both better for the arc, and it didn't overshadow the main story (except for when it was itself the story), so clearly it's not as simple as "relationships don't belong in TMNT". I think it's that gay, bi or straight, some people don't want it to overpower everything else in the series. And I get that, but I don't think it's a valid concern. As overbearing as the Don/April thing can be at times, it doesn't turn me off to the Nick show; I'm just hoping that for all the showcase it gets, that it ends up having a point or a payoff, which I'm pretty sure it will.

As for saying the TMNT isn't a book about "diversity", and don't take this as an attack, holy S*** is that a completely skewed perspective. The entire subplot of the franchise is that even though they're essentially "good guys", they're outcasts, hidden away and ostracized, all because they're "different", and no matter what they do they are vilified by the masses, who are simply ignorant. Most of the "noble" characters are mutants or otherwise "freaks", while most of the villains or simple jagoffs are "normal" people. The ENTIRE SERIES is a metaphor for the plight of the "outsider"; how the heck is that NOT about diversity?

If anything, that's what makes it even more poignant when TMNT does veer away from straight action and into other, more "human" things. Because they're "not normal", when one of them makes a connection with someone else, be it a friend like April or Casey, or a love interest like Ninjara, it's a huge deal and should be some kind of triumphant, uplifting thing. "See? Deep down we're all the same, no matter what we look like! We can all be friends, or even fall in love, if we look past the surface and see what's underneath! None of us are ever *really* alone!" That's such a positive message that I always assumed was directly implicit in what TMNT was trying to say, in between the whole "Yeah, Ninjas" stuff. I know it's the same kind of stuff they do in X-Men, which was around a lot longer than TMNT, but to me it's more poignant and sincere in TMNT, where the protagonists are outwardly different, rather than in X-Men where 99% of the "outcasts" look just like normal people (if normal people were all super-models) and one or two have wings or something.

All that said, I think one of the main cast coming out as gay or bi would simply be an extension of those themes of diversity and tolerance which absolutely are and have been part of the franchise since the beginning. So rather than break anything, I think if and when it happens, we'll be in a place as a society where we can accept it, and maybe even embrace it, as long as it's done organically. Right now doesn't seem like a good time, since so many people are so clearly opposed (even if most of their reasoning is "Just NO!"). But I do think that will change one day, and if that makes some people stop liking TMNT, well, that's silly. Those people should be sure and stop reading/watching if April and Casey ever get married (again), or Leo "hooks up" with Karai, or Mikey settles down with one of the seemingly endless number of chicks who throw themselves at him across all different TMNT media, if it's simply you don't want relationships diluting your ninja-beatdown enjoyment. I kind of get it, but kind of don't. What's the big deal? Does his relationship with Lois make Superman more or less interesting, after all? Isn't it neat when we sometimes see Bruce Wayne get a love interest (even if she only exists to be inevitably murdered)?

I'unno. I just like my fiction multi-dimensional. If story potential is limited only by the imagination, why purposely exist in a box? Especially one so small as "action/adventure story". A franchise like TMNT has so much potential to be so much more than just that. Some would say I and others are thinking too much and reading too much into all of it, but I'd counter-argue that some of those people simply lack imagination.

[plastroncafe]

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/797583813.gif

[Coola Yagami]

Cipher: I actually agree 100% with what you said earlier about how in a few decades, a lot of fictional characters we already know are gonna be "turned", because that's what happens in fiction. Characters evolve to better reflect the era they exist in. And in a group setting of three or more main characters, like with the TMNT, it becomes a mathematical certainty at some point. And creating secondary characters who "happen to be gay" so as not to "soil" the "purity" of the main cast is an impotent effort, ultimately, because once those characters outlive their usefulness as a "Look How Progressive We Are" plot device, they often tend to be shuffled into the background. It's a step forward, but a half-hearted one. For it to be sincere, it would be better off as a main character, or else it would have less impact. I do predict one day there is a likelihood of it happening, but since TMNT is so sacrosanct to some people, I think the writers will take the "new secondary character with a BIG SECRET" angle first at some point, so as not to offend TOO many people.

I'm amazed how one-dimensional people want their fictional entertainment to be. I hear a common refrain from many, "TMNT is just an action-adventure story; nothing else belongs there." Really? Because in talking to people, I've heard a LOT of things that make TMNT appealing, to kids, to parents, to everyone. To some people, it's a parable about persecution against anyone who is "different", to others it's an exploration of the adopted or simply non-traditional family unit, and to some it's just a story about ninjas who happen to be turtles. There's a LOT going on in TMNT, and frankly, the fact that it's so multi-dimensional is a big part of why it appeals to me. I have zero knowledge of martial arts and only slightly more of traditional Japanese culture, I'm not an expert on turtles or reptiles in general... on the surface, it would seem like TMNT has little to no appeal for me. And yet, it's one of the very favorite things in my life, more for the fact that it is far more than the sum of its parts, and works on many layers simultaneously. To me, as "just" an action-adventure story with ninjas, it's boring. It is BETTER for its ability to take mundane ideas, like family, friends, and yes, even relationships, and view them through the skewed prism of the TMNT "universe". I know it is MAINLY an action story, and I respect that to some people that's the thing they like most about TMNT, but I can't see it as being that and only that. I don't think people really mean that.

What I think some people object to with regards to relationships in TMNT as a whole, is their own fear that such subject matter would come to overshadow the rest or become the sole focus of the book/property, and I highly doubt that. Mostly because it's already been done several times, to varying degrees of success. People can say what they want about the Archie book, and they have (and will) about Ninjara, but the truth is that the arc between her and Raphael was one of the deepest and most creative things ever done with Raph's character in any media. It explored areas of his personality that never get any showcase. It grew the character. It gave *consequence* to his eternal "I'm pretty F'n Mad all the time" shtick, in that he developed a deep connection with someone outside from his immediate family or April (which is a fairly big deal, given how isolated they are and how few friends they, especially Raph, generally have), and eventually ruined it all because, deep down, he's just Kind Of An A$$hole. I was mad the series ended when it did, because I was seriously looking forward to seeing how Raph would be affected by the whole thing, the possibility for some introspection on his part, for example. Anything besides the same old "RAPH SMASH!" development he usually gets. The book and the character were both better for the arc, and it didn't overshadow the main story (except for when it was itself the story), so clearly it's not as simple as "relationships don't belong in TMNT". I think it's that gay, bi or straight, some people don't want it to overpower everything else in the series. And I get that, but I don't think it's a valid concern. As overbearing as the Don/April thing can be at times, it doesn't turn me off to the Nick show; I'm just hoping that for all the showcase it gets, that it ends up having a point or a payoff, which I'm pretty sure it will.

As for saying the TMNT isn't a book about "diversity", and don't take this as an attack, holy S*** is that a completely skewed perspective. The entire subplot of the franchise is that even though they're essentially "good guys", they're outcasts, hidden away and ostracized, all because they're "different", and no matter what they do they are vilified by the masses, who are simply ignorant. Most of the "noble" characters are mutants or otherwise "freaks", while most of the villains or simple jagoffs are "normal" people. The ENTIRE SERIES is a metaphor for the plight of the "outsider"; how the heck is that NOT about diversity?

If anything, that's what makes it even more poignant when TMNT does veer away from straight action and into other, more "human" things. Because they're "not normal", when one of them makes a connection with someone else, be it a friend like April or Casey, or a love interest like Ninjara, it's a huge deal and should be some kind of triumphant, uplifting thing. "See? Deep down we're all the same, no matter what we look like! We can all be friends, or even fall in love, if we look past the surface and see what's underneath! None of us are ever *really* alone!" That's such a positive message that I always assumed was directly implicit in what TMNT was trying to say, in between the whole "Yeah, Ninjas" stuff. I know it's the same kind of stuff they do in X-Men, which was around a lot longer than TMNT, but to me it's more poignant and sincere in TMNT, where the protagonists are outwardly different, rather than in X-Men where 99% of the "outcasts" look just like normal people (if normal people were all super-models) and one or two have wings or something.

All that said, I think one of the main cast coming out as gay or bi would simply be an extension of those themes of diversity and tolerance which absolutely are and have been part of the franchise since the beginning. So rather than break anything, I think if and when it happens, we'll be in a place as a society where we can accept it, and maybe even embrace it, as long as it's done organically. Right now doesn't seem like a good time, since so many people are so clearly opposed (even if most of their reasoning is "Just NO!"). But I do think that will change one day, and if that makes some people stop liking TMNT, well, that's silly. Those people should be sure and stop reading/watching if April and Casey ever get married (again), or Leo "hooks up" with Karai, or Mikey settles down with one of the seemingly endless number of chicks who throw themselves at him across all different TMNT media, if it's simply you don't want relationships diluting your ninja-beatdown enjoyment. I kind of get it, but kind of don't. What's the big deal? Does his relationship with Lois make Superman more or less interesting, after all? Isn't it neat when we sometimes see Bruce Wayne get a love interest (even if she only exists to be inevitably murdered)?

I'unno. I just like my fiction multi-dimensional. If story potential is limited only by the imagination, why purposely exist in a box? Especially one so small as "action/adventure story". A franchise like TMNT has so much potential to be so much more than just that. Some would say I and others are thinking too much and reading too much into all of it, but I'd counter-argue that some of those people simply lack imagination.

yeah, the break up was sad, despite Raph's future warnings. Young Raph never toned it down a notch, and Ninjara never 'gave him a second chance' so despite everything, they still broke up.

It was still weird since Raph married some other coyote chick. The future warning thing kinda means Ninjara was always his one true love and this wife of his never compared. I wonder how he would have felt if when he came back to his future time his wife was suddenly gone and an older Ninjara was home waiting for him.

[Cipher]

I wonder how he would have felt if when he came back to his future time his wife was suddenly gone and an older Ninjara was home waiting for him.
TMNT Adventures works on Dragon Ball time travel principles. No dice.

Also, Leo656 wrote a very good post.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I just like my fiction multi-dimensional. If story potential is limited only by the imagination, why purposely exist in a box? Especially one so small as "action/adventure story". A franchise like TMNT has so much potential to be so much more than just that. Some would say I and others are thinking too much and reading too much into all of it, but I'd counter-argue that some of those people simply lack imagination.

I disagree and think you are reading too much into this. There are plenty of instances of people who misinterpret "X" artistic creation and think it means differently than the creator intended. Example: in the Dire Straits song "Money For Nothing", a working man complains about how rock musicians get on MTV and get rich and famous for little effort. It was meant to be sarcastic, but people took it seriously.

As for the Turtles, any iteration? Hell, they're fictional characters you can make what you want of them. Make them a ballet troupe if you like. Make them a group of seventy-seven pink elephants while you're at it. With enough imagination, yes, you can interpret them any way you please. But don't get huffy if your interpretation might draw ridicule.

[Leo656]

I don't think it's reading too much into anything to suggest TMNT is more than an action/adventure tale. It's pretty clearly always been more than that alone. There's also a lot about TMNT that is wide-open for interpretation. TMNT is filthy with dangling plot threads and unfinished stories in every incarnation, so I'd argue it's as open for questioning and interpretation as any other fictional property. And it's hard to say what the "right" or "wrong" interpretations can be, since a lot of those unfinished stories are going to be unfinished forever. If people are going to analyze a fictional universe from all angles, I'd say TMNT is ideal for it.

Most of what I did in high school was Language Arts, Creative Writing and Journalism, so I pretty much have it ingrained in me to dissect, analyze, over-analyze and pontificate on things of a literary nature. One of the main things I was taught is that all things are open for interpretation, and I prefer to agree with that. Makes things more interesting, if for no other reason than never running out of things to talk/think about.

[Slade]

Lol @ people taking religion so seriously. Honestly most homophobia in the world comes from conservative Christians.

..............................:roll:

[Luckyday]

I disagree and think you are reading too much into this. There are plenty of instances of people who misinterpret "X" artistic creation and think it means differently than the creator intended. Example: in the Dire Straits song "Money For Nothing", a working man complains about how rock musicians get on MTV and get rich and famous for little effort. It was meant to be sarcastic, but people took it seriously.

As for the Turtles, any iteration? Hell, they're fictional characters you can make what you want of them. Make them a ballet troupe if you like. Make them a group of seventy-seven pink elephants while you're at it. With enough imagination, yes, you can interpret them any way you please. But don't get huffy if your interpretation might draw ridicule.


Be care what you wish for...:]
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/1557349/elephants-on-parade-o.gif

[Refractive Reflections]

I'm amazed how one-dimensional people want their fictional entertainment to be. I hear a common refrain from many, "TMNT is just an action-adventure story; nothing else belongs there." Really? Because in talking to people, I've heard a LOT of things that make TMNT appealing, to kids, to parents, to everyone. To some people, it's a parable about persecution against anyone who is "different", to others it's an exploration of the adopted or simply non-traditional family unit, and to some it's just a story about ninjas who happen to be turtles. There's a LOT going on in TMNT, and frankly, the fact that it's so multi-dimensional is a big part of why it appeals to me. I have zero knowledge of martial arts and only slightly more of traditional Japanese culture, I'm not an expert on turtles or reptiles in general... on the surface, it would seem like TMNT has little to no appeal for me. And yet, it's one of the very favorite things in my life, more for the fact that it is far more than the sum of its parts, and works on many layers simultaneously. To me, as "just" an action-adventure story with ninjas, it's boring. It is BETTER for its ability to take mundane ideas, like family, friends, and yes, even relationships, and view them through the skewed prism of the TMNT "universe". I know it is MAINLY an action story, and I respect that to some people that's the thing they like most about TMNT, but I can't see it as being that and only that. I don't think people really mean that.



I'unno. I just like my fiction multi-dimensional. If story potential is limited only by the imagination, why purposely exist in a box? Especially one so small as "action/adventure story". A franchise like TMNT has so much potential to be so much more than just that. Some would say I and others are thinking too much and reading too much into all of it, but I'd counter-argue that some of those people simply lack imagination.

Okay Leo656, let's really test your tolerance level of entertainment ;) and bring up a hypothetical situation to turn up the heat in this thread. :P

What if TMNT went beyond sexuality, and challenged monogamy and decided to try on polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory) with one of the Turtles (let's say Leonardo, whom you appear to admire/relate to most) with several other characters (male and female), where everyone consented romantically, and somehow this theme was written into it? Would you be just as enthusiastic to read/watch it and about Leonardo (even if Leo's character preferred this type of polyamory romantic relationship)?

[Avatar Yuffie]

Okay Leo656, let's really test your tolerance level of entertainment ;) and bring up a hypothetical situation to turn up the heat in this thread. :P

What if TMNT went beyond sexuality, and challenged monogamy and decided to try on polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory) with one of the Turtles (let's say Leonardo, whom you appear to admire/relate to most) with several other characters (male and female), where everyone consented romantically, and somehow this theme was written into it? Would you be just as enthusiastic to read/watch it and about Leonardo (even if Leo's character preferred this type of polyamory romantic relationship)?

You mean like most romances?

As long as it didn't make Leo ooc, like ditching his family heartlessly for his harem or the love didn't drown out the plot/remove the other Turtles from the spotlight/it felt more like Twilight than TMNT, then it's not an issue how many partners hypothetical Leo has.

Now if you insist this was all the story is about, then hate the writer who didn't do his/her job well. Not Leo's relationships.

[Refractive Reflections]

You mean like most romances?


Polyamory is committed multiple romantic relationships.
"Polyamory, often abbreviated as poly, is often described as "consensual, ethical, and responsible non-monogamy." "

[Avatar Yuffie]

I know what it means.

And I just gave the answer.

To make it plain for you. As long as Leo's relationships didn't muck up other stories and push his brothers out of focus why the hell not?

[Refractive Reflections]

I know what it means.

And I just gave the answer.

To make it plain for you. As long as Leo's relationships didn't muck up other stories and push his brothers out of focus why the hell not?

Well when you said "most romances" I didn't know how sarcastically to take that (since "most romances" in this world don't involve committed polyamorous relationships, or at least looked unfavorably upon), especially since my first post was starting off as a mere curious understanding of a viewpoint.

I'm just assessing how far people are enjoying TMNT from a relatable character perspective or more of a social "multi-dimensional" perspective (as Leo656 explained below), which could explain a bit of the contention in this thread here and how exactly TMNT is valued or appreciated by fans.

But if you prefer to be abrupt Avatar Yuffie... :ohwell:


I'unno. I just like my fiction multi-dimensional. If story potential is limited only by the imagination, why purposely exist in a box? Especially one so small as "action/adventure story". A franchise like TMNT has so much potential to be so much more than just that. Some would say I and others are thinking too much and reading too much into all of it, but I'd counter-argue that some of those people simply lack imagination.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Geez, it sounds like the only romance you know/grew up in are Disney movies.

[Candy Kappa]

"eeew, it's different then what i like. So it must be evil, depraved and icky ick!"


I wonder how Leo got so many partners, being a humaniod turtle living in the sewers secretly from society. Ads? Don's harem mutation project? other sewer dwellers? Graig's list?

[Refractive Reflections]

Geez, it sounds like the only romance you grew up in are Disney movies.

Well whatever :ohwell:, if you want to be harsh with me... fine, go ahead. *shrug* Nevertheless, even if I did or did not grow up that way, at least I was willing to understand others' viewpoints here of just how exactly (character relatability vs. "multi-dimensional" perspective of society) and how much people value TMNT, and their multiple perspectives upon it despite whatever disagreements we all may have.

With the character relatability vs. "multi-dimesnional" perspective situation, I was asking (Leo656) by making someone's favorite character/Turtle be significantly different than oneself. Would the reader/viewer still enjoy the series/comic if the relatability factor was significantly diminished? Especially with these controversial elements. How far is one willing to include diversity if it affects their most favorite character, where the character has now become unrelatable in some sense from where it previously was?

It's one thing to make a secondary or tertiary character (or a character one's not too fond of) to have a diversity different than one's own, but its another to see if one is willing to compromise their own favorite TMNT character/characters to a diversity that can be substantially unrelatable/unsimilar (altering with controversial elements, such as sexuality, religion, and political viewpoints) to the same person. Is one willing to make that compromise, and still enjoy the comic/series/franchise just as before the change?

**Leaving the thread**

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Okay Leo656, let's really test your tolerance level of entertainment ;) and bring up a hypothetical situation to turn up the heat in this thread. :P

What if TMNT went beyond sexuality, and challenged monogamy and decided to try on polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory) with one of the Turtles (let's say Leonardo, whom you appear to admire/relate to most) with several other characters (male and female), where everyone consented romantically, and somehow this theme was written into it? Would you be just as enthusiastic to read/watch it and about Leonardo (even if Leo's character preferred this type of polyamory romantic relationship)?


If it's a good, solid story, then sure.

If the story sucks, then no.

As for tolerance...if they did stuff like turn Leonardo or Raphael into Serial Killers or Rapists or such, then I can understand not tolerating that.

[The Big Bad]

What I meant was that it's not important. There's a subtle hint of one or more of the Turtles liking April in some of the different media's. But that would have worked with or without the romantic element behind it. They'll always like April as they are friends, so they'll always be worried for her safety. The main element of the turtles is that they're heroes, fighting evil.

All fine and dandy, except as I and others have said, that's far from being the only way the turtles' sexuality is explored in the franchise. You have every right to think that those explorations added nothing to the works. What you are saying, though, is that those elements don't exist at all--note that you've only acknowledged "subtle hints", while ignoring all the other canonical evidence--which is utterly, laughably false.

In any case, let's say the turtles' sexualities have historically not been a huge deal. If that is so, then there shouldn't be any problem with changing them--it'd be less dramatic a change than changing them from killers to people with a strict code against killing.

On the other hand, if their sexualities are indeed, A Big Deal, so what? The series has already changed a whole lot of things about them--changing them from killers to people with a strict code against killing so why not this thing?

There's simply no need to change one of them gay (apart from pleasing gay turtles fans).

Yes, because queer fans are the only ones who would want queer turtles in their works. -_-

Let's assume that you're correct, though. Just why exactly should straight fans be catered to (all those straight versions of the turtles) but not queer fans? And, no, it's not about keeping the turtles as they were originally conceived--that ship sailed as early as 1987.

[Bry]

I had to go offline for a while, but Cipher and Leo656 - very, very well said.

One more reason I hope this thread stays open - it's fostered some excellent discussion about the deeper meanings present (and interpreted) in this franchise and what connections it and its characters have to people on both cultural and personal levels.

[BubblyShell22]

no I have my reasons not to want a homosexual turtle
1) I'm a Christian and it is against my religion (don't kill me all at once)
2) my ships/pairings/OTP's will sink XD (okay that one isn't a really good reason but still)

but that's why I watch cartoons...so I don't have to deal with this stuff....
(and why I stay away from reality shows and junk...)

either way...I want the turtles to be straight because it just seems to fit them.
(but I guess that can be "just because" also)

and if they HAVE to introduce someone gay I would like it to be someone else...

well those are my reasons.....they probably might seem dumb to people...but they aren't to me...

BT, I have a question for you then. Let's say Mikey was revealed to be gay. Would that change how you view the character and how you like the character, or would you be able to see past the fact that he's gay and still like him as your favorite? I'm not trying to offend you at all, I'm just curious what your perception of Mikey would be if he was revealed to be gay.

[Bry]

On the other hand, if their sexualities are indeed, A Big Deal, so what? The series has already changed a whole lot of things about them--changing them from killers to people with a strict code against killing so why not this thing?

The IDW series already "changed" Splinter and the Turtles from being simply mutated animals into a reincarnated family from feudal Japan. That's a much larger change than, say, Raphael being attracted to dudes now. And yet I've seen very few people express a problem with that one.

[Jester]

The IDW series already "changed" Splinter and the Turtles from being simply mutated animals into a reincarnated family from feudal Japan. That's a much larger change than, say, Raphael being attracted to dudes now. And yet I've seen very few people express a problem with that one.
Then you haven't looked that hard.

[Bry]

Then you haven't looked that hard.
Ha! That's possible. I've mostly seen/read people enjoying the series, though I'm sure there are plenty of complaints I've blissfully passed over. ;)

Again, though - it's a change to a part of the characters' identities, but it hasn't really changed who they are. Their personalities and appeal are intact, and it hasn't damaged the franchise or the stories told within it. It's just opened it up to other possibilities.

[TheAnvil]

The more that I think about this subject matter, though, the more that I think I probably take this on a case by case basis. Because I realize that I have no trouble at all with Zangief from Street Fighter being gay, even if that may not have been the intent way back in 1991 (but became part of the character over time, even if not as obvious in Western material). But maybe it's because I view that more as character development as opposed to just changing a character? I dunno. And before anyone makes assumptions, Zangief is one of my favorite characters from Street Fighter.

Zangief isn't gay. That conclusion has only been drawn by fans that look far too into things from unofficial (non-canon) sources.

Even as recently as SFxT (the most recent game he's been in), Zangief has been shown to be interested in women.

Inventing a new gay character? Fine.

Turning an already established straight character gay? Terrible idea. All it is is pandering for the sake of it. All it will create is resentment, and that's where problems begin.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Yes, because queer fans are the only ones who would want queer turtles in their works. -_-

As a matter of fact, yes...unless you want to put in gay stereotype jokes to mock gays.

Nobody seems to have considered that if one of the Turtles were to declare himself gay, the others might dislike the idea and ostracize him. You think only religious Christians hate gays? Another joke from the gay cartoonist I referred to earlier:

"Solidarity" (http://raccoony.com/strips/closetcoon_aprilfool06.jpg)

[Leo656]

I agree that one good thing about this thread is it's opened up some good debate and conversation about what different people find most relevant to them personally with TMNT. As long as people can stay civil and not get personally offended I'm fine with it.

JYX: It's an interesting theory you raise, sorry I wasn't on earlier to give you an answer. Leo being part of a polygamous relationship? Well, like him possibly being gay, it's not exactly how I thought of his character my whole life, but from a creative writing standpoint I always, always fall back on "There are no bad ideas, just bad execution", which is what I was taught. So if a writer made him gay, OR had him "shack up" with multiple characters, I'd have to judge it entirely on how plausible I found the scenario and how well I found it to be written. I definitely would not care for it if, as others have said, it became an overbearing plot point, caused Leo to separate and be ostracized from his "real" family, things like that. If it were a case of, say, he had been shown to be in a committed relationship and then later found himself having feelings for someone else simultaneously, well, that happens to people all the time. How far it went would be the discretion of the writer, whether Leo had a difficult choice to make OR Leo and his harem all went to Utah and got group-married, and I long ago conceded that "they're telling me the story, I'm not telling them the story." I don't think it would necessarily "fit" very easily into everything else going on (and seems more like a Raph or Mikey plot point, but I get why you asked me how I'd feel if it were Leo's situation), but just like everything else I'd have to read it first and then either embrace it or disregard it in my "headcanon", like I do with everything else in TMNT. Whether he was gay or had two wives, he'd still be my favorite character in the franchise; I'm just not exactly begging for either of those things to become established canon. If they did, ah well.

To give a short answer to your question, "Yes, I'm ok with some controversial changes being made to characters I enjoy as long as other parts of them remain consistent," and that is true for most people, I imagine. The question really becomes, "what kind of changes can each individual handle seeing their favorite characters go through before it's 'too much'?" For me, I guess the answer is "Quite a bit". In this case, with Leonardo there are some things that would bother me a lot more if they became permanent other than him either being gay or a polygamist. If he became a remorseless killer, or bloodthirsty, or a dominating, abusive type of personality, those things *would* make me enjoy his character less, because they don't read as "Leo" to me. Why could I more likely see him as gay? Not sure, other than it's easier to me to reconcile with how I've always seen the character behave. There's stretching the boundaries of what works for each character, and then there's breaking them.

Another personal example: Some people hated the ending of "Man of Steel", stating that Superman wouldn't act as he did in the situation he found himself in. I disagreed, it wasn't WHAT he did that was character-breaking, it's that the scenario building to it did not sell the severity of the situation so that he absolutely had NO choice. Much more problematic to me was the situation with his adopted father earlier on in the film, a situation that NO version of Clark would ever play into, because it runs directly contrary to who he is and what he believes, and again, it was not built up properly so as to make it acceptable. But it's just one movie; I shrug and say, "He wouldn't do that," and simply move on from it, still enjoying the character as a whole.
For those of you who did see MoS, I'll state plainly: Yes, to me Superman is far more likely to kill someone if it saves lives, rather than let someone he loves die for essentially no good reason. To me, THAT was the character-breaking moment, NOT what he did to Zod.

I guess we're all different insofar as what we are willing to "accept" from fictional characters we identify with. I merely accept that I don't own them, and try and enjoy and find merit in what I'm given. And if they do things I don't like, well, nobody's perfect, after all. Why should I dislike Leo, after all, if he had two wives, or three girlfriends, or was even gay, if everything else about him was consistent and he was still essentially a noble character? Same goes for any of them, even Splinter. People shouldn't be defined solely by their sexual and relationship habits. All I would see it as, is another layer to the character. If the stories resulting from it sucked or over-shadowed everything else, then that itself is the problem, not that a controversial character arc was attempted.

Frankly, just in discussing it these past few days, I've realized I have even less of a problem with this concept than I did when the conversation started. :lol: I didn't expect to feel very strongly about it either way, but now it's like, seriously, what's the big deal? I get that people get emotionally invested in these characters, we're all guilty of that, but c'mon. If anything, TMNT is an ideal place to explore controversial things because it flies more "under the radar" than big corporate comics properties like DC and Marvel stuff. And Marvel once had an arc in X-Men where Nightcrawler had a very physical relationship with his step-sister, and shockingly, the world didn't end and there were no riots in the streets. It was a pretty dumb thing to push, but it didn't ruin anything. So if the X-Men can do stuff like that, then TMNT can survive one of them being "not straight".

EDIT: Why would having one of the Turtles be gay automatically mean pandering and stereotypes? If the writers were to go there, I'm pretty sure having the "out" Turtle become a symbol of parody and ridicule is NOT how they would go about it. More likely, it would just be treated as "one more thing" about the character's personality, not THE thing. It's not the 1980s anymore, where most people's ideas of "gay" started and ended with "The Rocky Horror Picture Show". If Mikey were suddenly portrayed as gay, for example, he may be shown watching and quoting said movie, thus providing a hint of his "other" personality, but I doubt he'd be mincing around like Tim Curry. There's a wide, wide disparity between one and the other. I'm not sure why some people seem to think if one of the TMNT was gay they'd automatically be acting like someone from a show on the Bravo network.

[Avatar Yuffie]

As a matter of fact, yes...unless you want to put in gay stereotype jokes to mock gays.

Nobody seems to have considered that if one of the Turtles were to declare himself gay, the others might dislike the idea and ostracize him. You think only religious Christians hate gays? Another joke from the gay cartoonist I referred to earlier:

"Solidarity" (http://raccoony.com/strips/closetcoon_aprilfool06.jpg)

Why would you assume writers will depict the gay Turtle as a stereotype meant to be ostracized? Aren't the Turtles ostracized in society already because they're giant mutant reptiles who wields ninja weapons?

[Shark_Blade]

http://i.imgur.com/wVzeCE0.png

This is what I thought everytime I read the thread title.

[Leo656]

They DO enjoy dancing... :lol:

[plastroncafe]

Okay Leo656, let's really test your tolerance level of entertainment ;) and bring up a hypothetical situation to turn up the heat in this thread. :P

What if TMNT went beyond sexuality, and challenged monogamy and decided to try on polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory) with one of the Turtles (let's say Leonardo, whom you appear to admire/relate to most) with several other characters (male and female), where everyone consented romantically, and somehow this theme was written into it? Would you be just as enthusiastic to read/watch it and about Leonardo (even if Leo's character preferred this type of polyamory romantic relationship)?

Oh YAY A Slippery Slope Argument!
Seriously, is polygamy really the boogey-man-on-deck after the queers? Really? Uh...okay. Sure, let's go with that and just ignore how much historical and religious support the social arrangement has had in the past. And...in some places continues to have.

[Leo656]

Well, to be fair, "one guy/one girl" or simply "one partner" is the societally-accepted arrangement for many people, and a lot of them have strong religious feelings about it as well, so I get it, but at the same time I feel it's kind of outdated. Mostly because, as many people preach monogamy, VERY few people successfully practice it for their entire lives. People cheat, have affairs, there's "open" relationships among consenting adults; as time goes on it seems that monogamy, as a practice, is being more and more exposed as a really hard, almost impossible standard to live up to. For starters, some people just can't commit to just one person; so what, should they just stay celibate their whole lives? If a person decides that having a relationship with just one person for the rest of their lives simply doesn't work for them, is it implicitly immoral that they pursue relationships with other, like-minded individuals? I don't think so at all.

"I've decided marriage is not for me. I've decided to stay single, but, at the same time, I've decided to live out my days in the company of a half-dozen willing, busty vixens, some of whom may rotate in or out of the 'main cast' of my affections or be replaced with other, equally-willing lassies, but all of whom are less interested in 'love' than in lots of meaningless, casual sex. There shall be no kids, no talk of marriage, and the minute one of us gets bored with the other, they're out the door no questions asked. That's my life; no wife, no kids, just daily orgies with a rotating cast of characters."

Well sh*t... I can't find anything objectionable about that at all, honestly. In fact, That Guy wins at freakin' LIFE. :lol:

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Polygamy actually makes more sense than monogamy if you think about it, but MY reasoning will make some of you very upset, most likely. Polygamy is a good idea because of Darwinism and survival of the fittest. Dudes who can't support a woman or any of the kids he makes with simply shouldn't pair up and make those children in the first place. If you can financially support more than one wife and the kids you have with multiple wives, than what is the problem? Only those who have genes worth passing down should be able to pass them. :twink:

[plastroncafe]

Polyamory =/= Polygyny.

Evolution isn't survival of the fittest, it's survival of the just fit enough to get by.

Marriage and the production of children are two separate things. Not all married people have kids, and not all people who have kids are married.

Man as sole provider/protector is a tired trope, it compares grown women with children, and dismisses the work that women do. It's probably wise for us to put it out of its misery once and for all.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Polyamory =/= Polygyny.

Evolution isn't survival of the fittest, it's survival of the just fit enough to get by.

Marriage and the production of children are two separate things. Not all married people have kids, and not all people who have kids are married.

Man as sole provider/protector is a tired trope, it compares grown women with children, and dismisses the work that women do. It's probably wise for us to put it out of its misery once and for all.

Oh, women were workers and providers as much as men even centuries ago. Read the works of authors from the past and you'll know. They do get credit for what they do.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

This topic is also further interesting.
First off, I have noticed that we seem to reject a lot of new stuff they have tried with the Turtles. A good example is anything Michael Bay is doing or has said he would do or the rumors of what could be in the new movie.
Things that alter the characters or the story enough that the overall fanbase rejects anything that could possible come from this before a frame of footage has even been seen.
But then there's this topic dealing with the Turtles really never before explored sexuality and "what if" one of a couple of them were gay.
Interesting how we're drawing lines here...

Personally I would accept Mike or Raph being gay if they were a bit more sassy like Felix in Orphan Black lol
But I honestly dont see how any of this would further the plot of the story or the characters and what they do. it's not like women were a distraction before. It's proven interesting with Nick's Don running into battle without concern if April is in danger.
Do we need one of the turtles interested in, say, Newtrailizer or Casey to run in and save them in the same method?
Is it just to have the label on a turtle that they are gay?

I always look for a left handed character or actor, being a lefty myself.
Is this the same for those into their own sex?

Anyways, I just wanted to not how interesting it is that we blaspheme so much of the Turtles if it differed from the source or the point in which we started watching, but this is a subject where many are trying to say "this would be good".

"...but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

The IDW series already "changed" Splinter and the Turtles from being simply mutated animals into a reincarnated family from feudal Japan. That's a much larger change than, say, Raphael being attracted to dudes now. And yet I've seen very few people express a problem with that one.

Yes well, apples and oranges.
What you describe here is a new take on the origin story while expanding on the idea but not fully changing the idea.
It wasn't rejected to my knowledge. I know when I first read the IDW comics and saw them talking about past lives I though "Oh, interesting". Plus Eastman is writing it so it's his way of retelling the story without copying what they have done, making it different from what he did with Larid.

[Matches Malone]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to say that the depiction of poly-amorous relationships is not the same as sexual orientation. The latter simply depicts attraction "April, what a babe!" It does not need more than one line to display an attraction. Heck, you can do it with one look. The actual depiction of relationships, committed or otherwise, certainly requires more writing and development, so it's certainly more intrusive story-wise. It's not really an equal hypothetical trade.

Just because "Hot Button PC Topics" exist doesn't mean every given franchise has to bring them into their universe. Its not like people look at TMNT and think...oh theyre against gays/race etc...Why bring attention to something thats not even an issue with said franchise?

I have nothing against gay people, other races or any other minority group but when its done in cases like this it always seems forced and the characters just end up being a stereotype of themselves.

Maybe it's not an issue because we're taught "straight is normal" and there are actually those who challenge that view?

And maybe writers who can't write characters who are minorities should be blamed instead of the minorities themselves? If it doesn't work, let's not give up on doing it right?

Also, saying this move is shoe-horned or forced doesn't subscribe to what they call logic. Unlike race, homosexuals have the (unfortunate) option to hide their minority status. At any given point, someone who has come out was at one point "assumed" to be straight. Fiction is allowed to make sense. You assume the turtles are all straight? Maybe they're not. Maybe you just want them to be because being gay goes against what we've been told is normal, even though it's not. Gay people actually exist. If it bothers you that a fictional story wants to reflect reality in some way that does not change the story, then maybe you should challenge yourself on why.

I don't mean to pick on you because I know you're not the only one, but I also find it interesting that people are so quick to say "they have nothing against gay people or other minorities" rather than "I support gay people and other minorities." Oh, you don't hate us? Thanks, pal.

I know I likely have an extremist view, but the sad thing to me is that it would be such an issue when it really shouldn't be.

Admittedly, the turtles "sexuality" isn't often brought up, but it has been here and there and it is always one of them crushing on a girl. The idea that one of them crushing on a male character is so outlandish to some that it demonstrates how for we still have to go to attain equality. The issue to me is that it shouldn't be an issue at all. If in some continuity, Don (or whoever) were to crush on Casey instead of April, what would the inherent difference be other than to demonstrate well-deserved normalcy to the population?

But I guess I'm getting on my soapbox. :ohwell: Just had to chime in.

This is my favorite "summed up" post in the thread. Short and straight to the point.

definition: mancrush "A hetrosexual man admiring another man to an extreme in a non-romantic or sexual way, more having an intense desire to be that other man."

I dunno... with the exception of the word "heterosexual," nothing about this really sounds not gay. But it's not like there are homosexuals who are in denial, so I'm just out of theories!

The IDW series already "changed" Splinter and the Turtles from being simply mutated animals into a reincarnated family from feudal Japan. That's a much larger change than, say, Raphael being attracted to dudes now. And yet I've seen very few people express a problem with that one.

Yeah, it's pretty awful. It feels like a total writing crutch to make them literally a family in order to, by default, raise the emotional stakes. But then again, the IDW series has been a lot of "telling, not showing."

[Matches Malone]

I always look for a left handed character or actor, being a lefty myself.
Is this the same for those into their own sex?

I am very appreciative of the fact that Matt Groening, a fellow lefty, intentionally made Bart left-handed. But damn him to hell if he ever tries to shoe-horn Homer actually being ambidextrous when I thought he was a normal right-handed red-blooded American all along!!!

And yes, minorities like being shown they are not completely alone in the universe. Even if it's a fictional one.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Ya I thought it was so cool when I realized all the Muppets, except Fozzy, seemed to be left handed!
And then I learned that it's because everyone, except Frank Oz, were right handed. Oi! :lol:

So, just to feel you/they are not totally alone in the universe, there should at least be one gay character (preferably in the main character roster) representative in each licensed product?
I just fail to see why sexuality even needs to come up in a product like the TMNT.

Although it would be fitting if this Nick version of Mikey says something like "That is a handsome dude".
But again, why? Will that take the story in to good and interesting directions? Or be distracting?
Should it just be throw-away lines that make people say "what he say?" or do we need to spotlight it on to the character(s)?
Or should it be psudeo-homoerotic-but-not-really-'cus-we're-bros like those seen in buddy films (see: Bad Boys 2 or similar titles) or, primarily, Edgar Wright movies like Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, (I imagine) The World's End, and his TV series Spaced?

[Matches Malone]

Ya I thought it was so cool when I realized all the Muppets, except Fozzy, seemed to be left handed!
And then I learned that it's because everyone, except Frank Oz, were right handed. Oi! :lol:

So, just to feel you/they are not totally alone in the universe, there should at least be one gay character (preferably in the main character roster) representative in each licensed product?
I just fail to see why sexuality even needs to come up in a product like the TMNT.

Although it would be fitting if this Nick version of Mikey says something like "That is a handsome dude".
But again, why? Will that take the story in to good and interesting directions? Or be distracting?
Should it just be throw-away lines that make people say "what he say?" or do we need to spotlight it on to the character(s)?
Or should it be psudeo-homoerotic-but-not-really-'cus-we're-bros like those seen in buddy films (see: Bad Boys 2 or similar titles) or, primarily, Edgar Wright movies like Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, (I imagine) The World's End, and his TV series Spaced?

Story-wise, it benefits from more accurately reflecting reality in which a certain percentage of people identify as something other than straight. Out of all the instances when the turtles do demonstrate a preference, it is always straight. That's not realistic. Plus, on a real-life level, yes, providing representation to those who already feel alienated is a morally good thing. Again, the issue is more that it is an issue. The bottom line is, sexuality has come up in TMNT, so why not something other than straightness?

EDIT: Did I use overdo the italics in this post? I don't think so.